https://www.emptywheel.net/wp-content/uploads/2016/07/Logo-Web.png00emptywheelhttps://www.emptywheel.net/wp-content/uploads/2016/07/Logo-Web.pngemptywheel2007-04-12 05:16:002007-04-12 05:16:00Another Interesting Detail, Karl Rove Edition
Anonymous says:
And did Mr. Stenzel gain his wide-ranging expertise at Messiah College or the Pat Robertson law school? Perhaps he too has a web page with links to his dissertation on this subject, a la Monica Goodling. Naw, that would be too much to hope for.
Anonymous says:
Stanzel also says that only a small proportion of POTUS appointees had access to RNC servers. What price POTUS’MBA when his administration disregards its statutory responsibilities under the PRA and trangresses the Hatch Act while claiming to do the right thing to prevent such trangressions by ensuring a mechanism to subvert the PRA? WH e-mails have been preserved since 2004. Is that from after the November elections or from 1 January 2004?
Anonymous says:
The average email goes through fifteen servers enroute to it’s recipient. Any one of those servers can archive not only the text but also the meta-data. That is thirty possible locations to purge. For even a single email, locating those servers would take hours if not days. Purging incriminating emails from all those sites would be nearly impossible, even for POTUS. Plus, policy people are not technically capable of performing this obstruction. It would have to be done by tech people. I doubt Bushco could possibly find that many kool-aid drinking techies. Regardless, the tech people can be subpeonaed.
Anonymous says:
Purging incriminating emails from all those sites would be nearly impossible, even for POTUS.
And if they’ve come even close, it would make a great basis for an obstruction case.
Anonymous says:
Is Stanzel wearing a red shirt? Startrek ’expendables’ always wore the red shirts.
Anonymous says:
outahere
I do wonder if they chose him instead of Dana Peroxide bc she has already lost credibility. And she never even had to use the â€no longer operative†line. Or maybe they’re setting him up for that line. Who knows?
Anonymous says:
I’m sure it’s not a matter of at least someone being technically able to recover the e-mails. It’s a matter of whether or not they’re going to turn over control of the physical materials necessary to perform the recovery. Doubtless they can be recovered. But you have to gain control of the hardware first. And that I don’t think they’ll give up.
I’m not entirely certain that obstruction of justice charges can lie against those who delay or even destroy evidence subpoenaed by a Congressional committee. Defying a court order in that way would certainly cause such problems. But I’m not certain it translates.
Contempt of Congress, of course, is a long shot to say the least, considering that under normal circumstances those charges are prosecuted by the US Attorney, and you know where we stand with that.
What we have here is the 18-minute gap and the Saturday Night Massacre all rolled up in one.
The question is whether we’re going to run out the clock for them, by throwing up our hands and begging the courts to fix it for us.
Anonymous says:
BTW, did you notice that Rove’s been in Tennessee twice in the last 4-6 weeks?
Anonymous says:
Email is a two way street. Even if Karl’s RNC emails were deleted at the RNC end, if the recipient were a member of the Justice Dept, those emails would have been archived at the other end. And I’m no techie but it is awfully hard to â€kill out email messagesâ€, strange-ass terminology, in a way that makes the email truly gone from the hard drive. As EW points out, if they had folks in there wiping out hard drives, that is, clear cut obstruction, it isn’t as easy as what little Rose Mary Woods did when she erased the 18 minutes, she just pushed the record button.
Anonymous says:
Subpoena the RNC’s warrantee info for the laptops and blackberries – that should have the location and maybe the name of the person to whom they were issued. Then subpoena the appropriate hardware. Hey, if they can’t give us the emails, we are justified in going on a larger fishing expedition to get the emails.
Anonymous says:
Leahy was giving them what-for about this (reported by DKos). (He did not forget to bring up the 18-minute gap in the WH tapes from Watergate.) The quotes are worth reading. I think we can expect more subpoenas shortly.
TPM is reporting this morning’s press gaggle had stuff on this also, but no details up at this time.
Anonymous says:
I’m sure it’s not a matter of at least someone being technically able to recover the e-mails. It’s a matter of whether or not they’re going to turn over control of the physical materials necessary to perform the recovery. Doubtless they can be recovered. But you have to gain control of the hardware first. And that I don’t think they’ll give up. -Kagro X
Congress would have an uphill battle getting the WH or DOJ to comply with a subpoena for the actual server equipment with storage drives. The stuff is in use and contains material on a thousand classified subjects and trade secrets (RNC servers) not responsive to the subpoena.
They would probably also have uphill battles with a subpoena for any currently employed person’s computer: Formerly employed persons are another matter. What has happened to Goodling’s computer and/or blackberry and/or personal share on the server?
No, it seems as though the results of the subpoena will include only what the WH attorneys and DOJ attorneys decide is responsive, and that depends on what is presented to them for their review. It will include carefully combed through records but not complete message stores. An inbound email, now stored in the recipients’ personal folder named “Iglesias†can be dragged into another folder called “responsive material†with the metadata in tact (email header with routing info.) In this example, the folder name Iglesias that the responsive email was stored in would be lost. However, the same email could be produced in such a way was to retain that info by delivering in a PST called Sampson with a folder called Iglesias that contains email1, email2…
What will be found on backup tapes is another matter. What exists is entirely dependent on the backup system designed. The WH system is BY DESIGN an archiving system. The GWB43 email backup strategy is likely, by design, a shredder. BUT as has been pointed out, people receiving these emails may not have had the discipline to delete them from the inbox or other email folders they created to keep their work organized.
Jane S points out that these emails live on at least two servers, the sending one and the receiving one. I think we’d find that servers involved in the store-and-forward transmission of an email over the Internet keep only meta-data (from,to, subject, date, time, size) and not message content. WH attorneys will not look there to respond unless they are prodded since they do not have possession of those systems. I would also be surprised to learn that whoever implemented the GWB43.com system did not setup an encrypted VPN between the WH and the GWB43.com server, which would render any message content stored on ’store-and-forward’ servers inaccessible with the keys.
Anonymous says:
EW, looks like the free time on your hands since the Libby trial ended is being snatched away . . . I’m looking forward to your talents being applied to this scandal . . .
Anatomy of Receipt, anyone?
Anonymous says:
Anatomy of Delete
Anonymous says:
Damn, Greenhouse. Much better than mine.
Anonymous says:
I dunno Reilly, it’s a toss up.
Anonymous says:
the bullshit in this case is getting so deep that the trolls wont even try to wade thru it
keep in mind folks, there ain’t no statuse of limitation on War Crimes
and a presnitential pardon doesn’t mean a damn thing in the Hague
Anonymous says:
I have a few questions for all you lawyers out there: if Patrick Fitzgerald knew about the RNC e-mails, why didn’t he nail Rove for obstruction when he didn’t turn over any related to the Plame matter? And if Fitzgerald didn’t know about the alternate system, why is he not now inviting Mr. Rove to have another chat with a grand jury? Wouldn’t this constitute the â€new information†he said it would take to re-open the Plame investigation(s)? Inquiring minds want to know…
Anonymous says:
Neil has the best handle on the enormity of the problem though there is still more to it. Really without a complete analysis of the systems used, anyone is spitting in the wind.
John Fords gives an interesting but outlandish possibility. That all our emails are stored wherever they go, and even gives 15 servers in his example, with 30 locations as if the meta data is all that important without the text. God these servers must be getting big with all that trash collecting in them. Still maybe he has in mind gmail. They claim to store everything forever. About 2.8GB for free mind you.
Karo-X claims a suponea in the right hands at the right time will produce these machines and stop the normal updating of their contents. Well, K-X did the proper sequence of events happen or had the horse fled the barn.
Everyone is ignoring the simplest way of untying this Gordian Knot which is to find a bad, bad, bad, horrid Rove, email that shows the plot to do terrible, evil, and maybe even illegal things. All you need is a snitch, an employee, an intrepid investigative reporter, or some such. What no such valiant exists?
Then all you have it seems is an unfettered imaginations in a overly febrile minds.
Anonymous says:
tokyjodi still doesn’t know the difference between singular and plural. I don’t know what makes you so stupid, but it really works!
And did Mr. Stenzel gain his wide-ranging expertise at Messiah College or the Pat Robertson law school? Perhaps he too has a web page with links to his dissertation on this subject, a la Monica Goodling. Naw, that would be too much to hope for.
Stanzel also says that only a small proportion of POTUS appointees had access to RNC servers. What price POTUS’MBA when his administration disregards its statutory responsibilities under the PRA and trangresses the Hatch Act while claiming to do the right thing to prevent such trangressions by ensuring a mechanism to subvert the PRA? WH e-mails have been preserved since 2004. Is that from after the November elections or from 1 January 2004?
The average email goes through fifteen servers enroute to it’s recipient. Any one of those servers can archive not only the text but also the meta-data. That is thirty possible locations to purge. For even a single email, locating those servers would take hours if not days. Purging incriminating emails from all those sites would be nearly impossible, even for POTUS. Plus, policy people are not technically capable of performing this obstruction. It would have to be done by tech people. I doubt Bushco could possibly find that many kool-aid drinking techies. Regardless, the tech people can be subpeonaed.
Purging incriminating emails from all those sites would be nearly impossible, even for POTUS.
And if they’ve come even close, it would make a great basis for an obstruction case.
Is Stanzel wearing a red shirt? Startrek ’expendables’ always wore the red shirts.
outahere
I do wonder if they chose him instead of Dana Peroxide bc she has already lost credibility. And she never even had to use the â€no longer operative†line. Or maybe they’re setting him up for that line. Who knows?
I’m sure it’s not a matter of at least someone being technically able to recover the e-mails. It’s a matter of whether or not they’re going to turn over control of the physical materials necessary to perform the recovery. Doubtless they can be recovered. But you have to gain control of the hardware first. And that I don’t think they’ll give up.
I’m not entirely certain that obstruction of justice charges can lie against those who delay or even destroy evidence subpoenaed by a Congressional committee. Defying a court order in that way would certainly cause such problems. But I’m not certain it translates.
Contempt of Congress, of course, is a long shot to say the least, considering that under normal circumstances those charges are prosecuted by the US Attorney, and you know where we stand with that.
What we have here is the 18-minute gap and the Saturday Night Massacre all rolled up in one.
The question is whether we’re going to run out the clock for them, by throwing up our hands and begging the courts to fix it for us.
BTW, did you notice that Rove’s been in Tennessee twice in the last 4-6 weeks?
Email is a two way street. Even if Karl’s RNC emails were deleted at the RNC end, if the recipient were a member of the Justice Dept, those emails would have been archived at the other end. And I’m no techie but it is awfully hard to â€kill out email messagesâ€, strange-ass terminology, in a way that makes the email truly gone from the hard drive. As EW points out, if they had folks in there wiping out hard drives, that is, clear cut obstruction, it isn’t as easy as what little Rose Mary Woods did when she erased the 18 minutes, she just pushed the record button.
Subpoena the RNC’s warrantee info for the laptops and blackberries – that should have the location and maybe the name of the person to whom they were issued. Then subpoena the appropriate hardware. Hey, if they can’t give us the emails, we are justified in going on a larger fishing expedition to get the emails.
Leahy was giving them what-for about this (reported by DKos). (He did not forget to bring up the 18-minute gap in the WH tapes from Watergate.) The quotes are worth reading. I think we can expect more subpoenas shortly.
TPM is reporting this morning’s press gaggle had stuff on this also, but no details up at this time.
I’m sure it’s not a matter of at least someone being technically able to recover the e-mails. It’s a matter of whether or not they’re going to turn over control of the physical materials necessary to perform the recovery. Doubtless they can be recovered. But you have to gain control of the hardware first. And that I don’t think they’ll give up.
-Kagro X
Congress would have an uphill battle getting the WH or DOJ to comply with a subpoena for the actual server equipment with storage drives. The stuff is in use and contains material on a thousand classified subjects and trade secrets (RNC servers) not responsive to the subpoena.
They would probably also have uphill battles with a subpoena for any currently employed person’s computer: Formerly employed persons are another matter. What has happened to Goodling’s computer and/or blackberry and/or personal share on the server?
No, it seems as though the results of the subpoena will include only what the WH attorneys and DOJ attorneys decide is responsive, and that depends on what is presented to them for their review. It will include carefully combed through records but not complete message stores. An inbound email, now stored in the recipients’ personal folder named “Iglesias†can be dragged into another folder called “responsive material†with the metadata in tact (email header with routing info.) In this example, the folder name Iglesias that the responsive email was stored in would be lost. However, the same email could be produced in such a way was to retain that info by delivering in a PST called Sampson with a folder called Iglesias that contains email1, email2…
What will be found on backup tapes is another matter. What exists is entirely dependent on the backup system designed. The WH system is BY DESIGN an archiving system. The GWB43 email backup strategy is likely, by design, a shredder. BUT as has been pointed out, people receiving these emails may not have had the discipline to delete them from the inbox or other email folders they created to keep their work organized.
Jane S points out that these emails live on at least two servers, the sending one and the receiving one. I think we’d find that servers involved in the store-and-forward transmission of an email over the Internet keep only meta-data (from,to, subject, date, time, size) and not message content. WH attorneys will not look there to respond unless they are prodded since they do not have possession of those systems. I would also be surprised to learn that whoever implemented the GWB43.com system did not setup an encrypted VPN between the WH and the GWB43.com server, which would render any message content stored on ’store-and-forward’ servers inaccessible with the keys.
EW, looks like the free time on your hands since the Libby trial ended is being snatched away . . . I’m looking forward to your talents being applied to this scandal . . .
Anatomy of Receipt, anyone?
Anatomy of Delete
Damn, Greenhouse. Much better than mine.
I dunno Reilly, it’s a toss up.
the bullshit in this case is getting so deep that the trolls wont even try to wade thru it
keep in mind folks, there ain’t no statuse of limitation on War Crimes
and a presnitential pardon doesn’t mean a damn thing in the Hague
I have a few questions for all you lawyers out there: if Patrick Fitzgerald knew about the RNC e-mails, why didn’t he nail Rove for obstruction when he didn’t turn over any related to the Plame matter? And if Fitzgerald didn’t know about the alternate system, why is he not now inviting Mr. Rove to have another chat with a grand jury? Wouldn’t this constitute the â€new information†he said it would take to re-open the Plame investigation(s)? Inquiring minds want to know…
Neil has the best handle on the enormity of the problem though there is still more to it. Really without a complete analysis of the systems used, anyone is spitting in the wind.
John Fords gives an interesting but outlandish possibility. That all our emails are stored wherever they go, and even gives 15 servers in his example, with 30 locations as if the meta data is all that important without the text. God these servers must be getting big with all that trash collecting in them. Still maybe he has in mind gmail. They claim to store everything forever. About 2.8GB for free mind you.
Karo-X claims a suponea in the right hands at the right time will produce these machines and stop the normal updating of their contents. Well, K-X did the proper sequence of events happen or had the horse fled the barn.
Everyone is ignoring the simplest way of untying this Gordian Knot which is to find a bad, bad, bad, horrid Rove, email that shows the plot to do terrible, evil, and maybe even illegal things. All you need is a snitch, an employee, an intrepid investigative reporter, or some such. What no such valiant exists?
Then all you have it seems is an unfettered imaginations in a overly febrile minds.
tokyjodi still doesn’t know the difference between singular and plural. I don’t know what makes you so stupid, but it really works!