Okay Already, Here’s Your Damn Trash Talk Thread

Everyone’s spoiling my Bhutto thread with their damn trash talk, so I’ll put up this one, a whole day early. Jeebus, you put the Pats on TV and people get all uppity. (Incidentally, this Pats-on-three-channels thing started after John Kerry complained; where was all this gumption in 2004 when we needed it???)

That said, as much as I’m hoping the Pats win (and recognizing that, even without Shockey, the Giants have a shot), I’m most interested in those games that actually, you know, matter. I’m of the opinion that the most interesting factor still to be decided for the playoffs is who has to face the Jacksonville Jaguars when. The Jags have the ability to beat either the Colts or the Pats (though they have one of those blocks against beating Peyton), to say nothing of those "division winners" with worse records than the Jags. And those guys are Hu-Ge. Will San Diego put up enough against the hapless Raiders to earn the right to avoid the Jags, and if not, will the Parker-less Steelers be able to beat a very cranky Baltimore to avoid the team that beat them a few weeks ago? I’ve gotta hunch that one of these games will be an upset, and I’m hoping it’s San Diego.

And while we’re at it, can the Titans and ‘Skins beat the Colts’ and ‘Boys’ second stringers, respectively, in order to seal up their playoff spots? Even the TO-less ‘Boys aren’t going to want to get beat by their big conference rivals. And Dungy probably remembers the lesson of 2005 acutely, so will try to avoid treating this game like a rest game.

So I think all of those games may be more interesting than the Pats’ dance with history.

But just in case, I’m going to do what I’ve been doing for several weeks, to ensure the solid play from a key Pat: I’m going to predict that if the Pats lose, it’ll be because Rodney Harrison has lost a step. You see, every time I suggest Rodney-Roid no longer has the speed and power he needs to compete, he comes on and makes some really key defensive stops. That’s the whole point of trash talk, after all, isn’t it? To incite your team to win and win big?

Go Pats!

Update: Brady soft porn courtesy of joejoejoe. mr. emptywheel hates when I play that YouTube. But it’s one of McCaffrey the MilleniaLab’s favorites, so what can I do?

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205 replies
  1. scribe says:

    EW – go back to the immediate prior thread and read (and maybe comment on) my comment at the end thereof.

    • emptywheel says:

      Well, I don’t THINK they’ll win. But just imagine how good it’ll make Eli feel if, after coming to the brink of being benched this year, he pulled off something big brother Peyton couldn’t do this season? Never underestimate how psychological angst motivates these Manning boys.

  2. BlueStateRedHead says:

    Everybody? You mean me, don’t you! I am sorry to have spoiled the thread, but I was hungering for some distraction and relif.

  3. BlueStateRedHead says:

    Do we know for sure that Kerry played a role in brokering the network deal? If so is there is some lesson to be learned from forcing a Media organization to do something for the ‘greater good’. ‘though presume they are going to triple their advertising revenues by having a trimulcast.

    AS for the Pats, anyone want to talk about what is happening to Brady? Around about the Bills game he was the said to be the best QB in the history of the NFL in its current configuration. This week the Boston Herald report card gave him a C-, which is better than the D they gave the coaches, but sure ain’t perfect.

    • freepatriot says:

      talk about Brady ???

      okay, let’s talk about Brady

      he’s got, what, three supermodels knocked up ???

      Sammy Baugh never had a year like that

      Brady’s the greatest quarterback that ever lived

      if you’re judging by “Broadway Joe” standards

      (ducking and running)

      • BlueStateRedHead says:

        i think there is one knocked up lady whose child he has acknowledged and one supermodel who according to Wes “better to receive” Welker makes the greatest cookies that is not knocked up. Allegedly.

        What goes on on the sidelines (beside video taping) is not known to me.

        Sorry to leave you mid thread, but there is a Significant other who thinks that dinner trumps trash talk.

        ‘bye all.

  4. JamesJoyce says:

    “I’m going to predict that if the Pats lose, it’ll be because Rodney Harrison has lost a step. You see, every time I suggest Rodney-Roid no longer has the speed and power he needs to compete, he comes on and makes some really key defensive stops.”

    Great call… He has been getting stronger. The Pat’s defense is like a sharks jaw… one tooth breaks another moves up. Above all it is the “team effort” and the sense of selflessness left out on the field that is, unmatched. Pat’s break all the records, Offense, a little off, but the defense forces Eli to cough it up bigtime. Pats 27 Giants 0

    • JamesJoyce says:

      What a bunch of greedy network geeks………deny us the Pats. My buddy AL was all over it way back when.. raising hell!

    • JamesJoyce says:

      Ahhh can Kerry have a “sack” on something other than this. Maybeeee FCC Martin…. I appreciate his effort but ahhhhhhhhhhh.

  5. freepatriot says:

    I love the smell of trash talking threads in the morning air

    it smells like …

    Victory

    and as long as we can keep the cheeseheads out of this one, I win either way

      • bobschacht says:

        Hey phred,
        Did I see you in Madison, WI at the Meriter retirement center with your parents and brothers a few days ago, not knowing it was YOU?

        If so, please give me a shout at bobschacht AT infomagic DOT net.

        Bob in HI
        Currently in MI

        • BooRadley says:

          Bob, phred left this for you above at 35:

          Oh, and one other thing, I think I may have met Bob in HI while I was out there, but didn’t realize it at the time. So Bob, if you check in on this thread, let me know if you were visiting your Mom in Madison. If so, and if you met a redhead on Christmas, that was me : )

        • phred says:

          Yep — didn’t figure it out until I was catching up on what I missed while I was away and saw you were spending the holidays in WI. Didn’t figure there were too many people visiting Madison from Hawaii at this time of year : ) I’ll go pop you an email…

  6. realworld says:

    The Pat’s have become a bit of a mystery lately. The first half of the Miami game they looked like the Pats from weeks 1-8. The second half, they looked like they were the second string. A lot of people, my self included think they wanted to keep the mystery going until the playoffs. If that is so, the game tomorrow should be very interesting. Can they balance hiding their capabilities while winning the game. That could be tricky and could backfire. I suspect whatever happens it won’t be a blowout.

    • emptywheel says:

      I actually think they only do well when I’m “watching.” Remember when I was on Sam Seder and it was Neil’s job to get a 20 point lead? They were tied until I got off the radio. And on Sunday, I was listening via the radio, but then lost the signal. So you all just have to pitch in for beer for me so I cna sit in front of the tele for the whole game.

    • BlueStateRedHead says:

      Great analysis in Boston Herald’s weekly Patriot report card by Michael Felger. Brady has gone from C+ on Dec. 18th to C- for the ‘fins game.
      Partially wear and tear,partially they are no longer the mudders of the old Gillette Stadium who have become used to sunny weather….
      The Krafts have plans to make Foxborough a year round place, but no roof as yet.

  7. bigbrother says:

    Spent half of my life in a chair watching football or going to games it seemed. Better to get into some sport than watch.

  8. watercarrier4diogenes says:

    I offer this view of Ypsilanti dining facilities as encouragement to emptywheel to counter it with a report on last night’s meetup with DHinMI, DumpTerryMcAuliffe (sp?) and others there…

    The Ann Arbor Michigan News crime column reported that a man walked into a Burger King in Ypsilanti, Michigan, at 5 a.m., flashed a gun, and demanded cash. The clerk turned him down because he said he couldn’t open the cash register without a food order. When the man ordered onion rings, the clerk said they weren’t available for breakfast. The man, frustrated, walked away.

    found it on a DailyKos humor post that had 9 other all-time greats in it.

    • freepatriot says:

      that’s a great link

      try explaining this one to your wife:

      After stopping for drinks at an illegal bar, a Zimbabwean bus driver found that the 20 mental patients he was supposed to be transporting from Harare to Bulawayo had escaped. Not wanting to admit his incompetence, the driver went to a nearby bus stop and offered everyone waiting there a free ride. He then delivered the passengers to the mental hospital, telling the staff that the patients were very excitable and prone to bizarre fantasies. The deception wasn’t discovered for 3 days

      You’ve been WHERE for three days ???

      Maryland 14, Oregon State 7, 1;00 left in the first quarter

      GO LIST GO

    • BlueStateRedHead says:

      just might hapen in my corner of the blue state, where we have the most opinionated zipcode in the country and wear tshirts saying so.

  9. radiofreewill says:

    In just a few days, the Defending National Champion Mighty Florida Gators are going to send Lloyd Carr into Retirement, right after we spend about an hour tatooing an Over the Hill “L” on his ass for all the whining he did last year before folding up like a tent to USC.

    But first…

    The ’skins will Win because they have to…

  10. emptywheel says:

    Hey phred!! We thought you were stuck in a cave somewhere in WI with not Toobz. Who let you out (good to see you, though, and hope you had a Merry one).

    • phred says:

      Hiya EW — it wasn’t actually a cave, although a snow cave would have been a possibility given the weather ; ) Anyway, I returned to the land of the tubes last night, just long enough to yank freepatriot’s chain before I turned in for the night…

      The holidays were delightful — hope yours were too! Oh, and since this is the football trash talk thread, I can confirm that my holidays were delightful in part because I spent most of last Sunday afternoon driving slowly through a blizzard, rather than watching the abomination that unfolded in Soldier Field. I listened to every mishandled snap, blocked punt, poorly executed play on the radio, but mercifully did not have to watch…

      Oh, and one other thing, I think I may have met Bob in HI while I was out there, but didn’t realize it at the time. So Bob, if you check in on this thread, let me know if you were visiting your Mom in Madison. If so, and if you met a redhead on Christmas, that was me : )

      • emptywheel says:

        phred

        Bob in HI and I are tentatively scheduled for a coffee or beer this PM. (At an awkward time–3:00. Is that beer thirty? I guess on a Saturday it is.) I’ll have to ask him…

        • phred says:

          3 p.m. on a football Saturday is most definitely beer thirty ; ) ‘Course, coffee and pastries works for me pretty much any time on any day… Have fun either way : )

          And for your sake, just this once… Go Pats!

  11. freepatriot says:

    More on Brady:

    I’d say Brady is having a “Ruthian” year (nobody partied like the Babe)

    bout time to trade him to the Yankees, isn’t it ???

    I’m here till thursday, try the veal …

  12. Neil says:

    (Incidentally, this Pats-on-three-channels thing started after John Kerry complained; where was all this gumption in 2004 when we needed it???)

    He was quoted saying “On one hand the NFL Network is entitled to exclusive coverage, the terms its negotiated in their contract, and on the other hand…” ;p

    See that was Kerry’s fundamental flaw, thinking with his mouth open. But Bush had that one covered, he eliminated the thinking and put the ideology on auto-pilot.

  13. der1 says:

    awww…ew…I was right there with you until you mentioned Harrison and now the ju-ju is all outta wack and it’s almost midnight and raining here in Baltimore and to make it all right again I have to go outside and run counterclockwise around my house 3 times with my hair on fire…and if the Defense keeps Manning to one score in the first 18 minutes then I’ll breathe a little easier…the weak spot from where I sit is defending against the running game and last week, in the snow, the Giants rushed for over 300 yards. But sitting in the stands at the Ravens game you can just see that the Patriots are winners. They walk like winners, act like winners, breathe a winning attitude and that intimidates those other teams…they’re winners, we want to be like them.

    • BlueStateRedHead says:

      I am back, you are all gone, but the song lingers:

      But sitting in the stands at the Ravens game you can just see that the Patriots are winners. They walk like winners, act like winners, breathe a winning attitude and that intimidates those other teams…they’re winners, we want to be like them

      That’s what the Progessive Blogosphere can do. The Pats to a man and to a woman, ’cause I have heard it was Ms. Kraft who brought the money to the family and today’s Pats are the Krafts’ Pats, walk like winners etc. because they are a team. Their first Superbowl was in the dawning days of my fandom and ignorance was the rule and comprehension the exception but my memory was working. And I think I remember the big shock was their emerging for the introductions not one-by-one, but as a team. (I could look it up, but that would be Yogi Berra and Baseball.)

      More of that spirit here than on other blogs. It is painful to watch the fight aboutcontrolling collusive troll-rating that has bloodied daily kos these past days and hear the news of the declining frequentation, although still very high, multiple millions of visits (not visitors) monthly. There has been good news DKos received a word of thanks received from KO in the acknowledgments of his new books, along with Crooks and Liars and all blog visitors who sent him links and clips.

      So thank you trash talk for letting us come out fighting but as winners. Even a ‘fin fan can feel like a winner when we trash talk. Ask the just-borning one, Mr. FrPat.

      G’morning all. Top of the morning to you.

  14. freepatriot says:

    did anybody else notice that the “Management” called us “Uppity” ???

    as if our recent behavior was an aberration, or something unusual

    like we don’t act this way all the time, or something, you know

    I’m not sure if the management is tryin to insult us, or just tryin to cover up our natural tendencies, so the random visitor wouldn’t think we’re a bunch of demanding little (fill in your own expletive deleted) around here

    if you’re scoring at home, the magic list was only 2 out of 3 today (probably suffering some lingering effects from that defective thread)

    next up;

    the meineke bowl, UCONN vs Wake Forest (they heard about football in Connecticut ???) 10;00 am pst (do the math, you east coasters)

    The Liberty Bowl, Mississippi St vs Central Florida, 1:30 pst (once again, math for east coasters)

    The Alamo Bowl, Penn St vs Texas A & M (what kind of asshole insults JoePa ???, a texas asshole, thats what kind of asshole, what a fucking dickwad), 5:00 pst (oh yeah, more math for ya)

    and there’s also an NFL game at 5:00 today, not sure who’s playing though, or what channels it might be on (ducking and running)

    (but still taking shit)some losers verses the Giants, I think

    or maybe it was some cheaters versus the GNTS

    yeah, that’s the ticket-

    this has been your magic list update, for whatever day it is

    The list is 8-3

    GO LIST

    until we get to Oklahoma vs West Virginia, that is

    Go GNTS (did I mention the ‘Fins thing ???)

  15. nomolos says:

    BC won last night…. yet another great victory for the EEAAGles. BUT today is PATS day. I have my “squatter” tea cup in front of me, my “squatter” hat on and my ratty, tatty Champeen ‘t’ shirt on I am so ready.

    Nervous? What me nervous? My ever lovin’ spouse has put up with me and my Pats for 31 years through the years of craziness of Orthwein and Kiam to say nothing of that little twit Patrick Sullivan.

    As for freepatriot HARUMPH!

    • BlueStateRedHead says:

      My shirt will come out too, and the SignifOther will laugh because it comes from the days when I though downs were those little markies on the ground and thought someone has been awarded a safety every time a safety-the-person/position was mentioned.
      How can one American be so ignorant? Trying spending a good chunk of formative years abroad. At least I knew where home base was when I came back.
      Anyway, it’s grey morning in the BlueBayState but Pats fans are coming up patriotic red white and blue and many of them are us DFH. Especially since that fake BayStater is running the bases with his five sons to “see” the Pats win the World Series.
      And here is where I leave you till game time.
      EW, not a word in my dead wood paper about Pakistan.Anything you have heard since they closed the country down?

  16. freepatriot says:

    this is kinda off-topic, but what’s the matter with Michigan ???

    “up is down”ism seems to be ruling the day

    Michigan Attorney General: Only Legal Residents Can Drive

    didn’t we just go over this a few months back ???

    isn’t there a Treaty obligation to provide a driver’s license to foreigners ???

    we got any Michiganders around here ??? (well, what should I call them ???)

    Anybody here from Queens ???

    I’m from regular parents myself …

    we now return you to your regularly scheduled (kinda) trash talking thread

    honest, that wasn’t trash talking, I really wanted everyone to know

  17. radiofreewill says:

    I wonder how many NFL Coaches have called the Giants’ staff and given their best “Here’s how you the Pats” advice?

    Stuff like:

    – Send a team of 10 guys into the stands to block the view of their sign stealers
    – Bring a jamming device to defeat the in-helmet mics and speakers that the whole team wears
    – Don’t let them pour their Roid Rage Powder into their Gatorade Barrels
    – Change footballs frequently so the spit and cuts Brady uses don’t affect your QB
    – Anytime you can, crowd the line and run a delayed blitz, Brady hasn’t taken a ‘Montana’ bellringer shot this year
    – They’ve proven they can cheat better than we can catch them, so think outside the box

    Will the Giants be able to get a fair game out of the Pats?

  18. MrWhy says:

    (Incidentally, this Pats-on-three-channels thing started after John Kerry complained; where was all this gumption in 2004 when we needed it???)

    lmao – well I thought it was funny, for a moment anyway.

  19. CasualObserver says:

    The New England Patriots vs. New York Football Giants game is the only game that matters this weekend. It is the only game that will be remembered, and rightfully so.

    The motivation is there. Each team has an opportunity to go all historic at the other team’s expense. If Coughlin doesn’t put up the fight of his life, he’s an even sorrier coach than I already view him to be.

    Who cares about the rest of the league and the scramble for remaining playoff slots. Big deal. This is the one that matters, right here.

    • phred says:

      Who cares about the rest of the league and the scramble for remaining playoff slots.

      Ummm, fans of Cleveland, Tennessee, Washington, Minnesota, and NO? Is this a trick question?

  20. greenharper says:

    Re Kerry’s sorely belated “gumption” (great word, EW) in nudging for 3-channel broadcast of tomorrow’s Pats’ game, Kerry apparently has a particular interest in pro football as campaign fundraiser.

    A few weeks ago I got an email inviting me to donate $2,300 per person to Kerry’s ‘08 Senate campaign to sit with Kerry on Dec. 16 and watch the Pats play the New York Jets.

    As a Western Mass. citizen I’m of course glad that Kerry supports the home team.

    But, doesn’t Kerry’s grandstanding gumption here have more than a whiff of the self-serving? not to mention that it’s in the service of, shall we say, a lesser good?

    Where was it when Kerry’s promised recount in Ohio could have saved us all 4 more years of This President? Not to mention untold thousands of lives?

    This is part of why I back Mass. Democrat and Gloucester native Ed O’Reilly (former firefighter, Out of Iraq Now, pro-Constitution & pro-marriage equality, much gumption) against the selectively-gumptious Kerry for the U.S. Senate in ‘08.

    Like people all across Massachusetts, even including west of the Quabbin and up in the Berkshires, I’ve actually met Ed O’Reilly without paying $2,300 for the privilege. Hey, and Ed’s a Pats fan, too!

  21. BooRadley says:

    “Our objective is to win,” Coughlin said Wednesday, according to New York-area media reports. “That’s what we work for, that’s what we prepare for, that’s what we practice for. And it will be no different this week.”

    Bookies have NE winning by two TD’s.

    • Elliott says:

      “Our objective is to win,” Coughlin said Wednesday, according to New York-area media reports. “That’s what we work for, that’s what we prepare for, that’s what we practice for. And it will be no different this week.”

      Bookies have NE winning by two TD’s.

      yeah but anything’s possible, that’s why we watch the game, eh not?

  22. Neil says:

    A win tonight makes the Giants season.

    The only way a loss hurts the Pats is if they give it their all and come up short.

    Will the game be on network teevee in other markets or just in New England?

    Who’s in? I’m up for some trash-talking. That’ll get us warmed up for the game. Freepatriot, Emptywheel, Bmaz… all you emptywheelers! Who’s in?

    • BlueStateRedHead says:

      Neil,
      We missed you yesterday when we extorted trash talk out of EW. Searchh for your name, you were mentioned I think.
      Remarks interalia in thread suggest that she is at a meet up with a THNick now. But the news is good
      Game is trimulcast on two networks and the previously monopolizing N[asty]FL network.

      • freepatriot says:

        hey, extortion is an UGLY word

        we prefer to say that we “Negotiated” a trash talking thread out of ew

        it’s not like we threatened to kill a puppy or something

        we used a full grown dog, so there …

        Go GNTS

        *please note that no dogs were hurt during the posting of this comment, a cat got sick, and somebody stepped on a duck, but that’s all

      • Neil says:

        Yeah, I noticed I missed the “head of the thread” when I got home from “25 Questions for a Jewish Mother” and a post-show nightcap at the The Butcher Shop.

        Emptywheel was quite understanding when I blew the assignment a few weeks ago when she was on Seder… I was hoping she’d let it go quietly into the archives but no, damn. I will confide, it is still a source of shame. I took two more days that week to mull it over, to put it behind me, and on Wednesday morning I came into work ready to focus on the next opponent. We can’t play last week’s game, we can only play this week’s opponent.

        The stars are aligned. The Giants have decided to bring it and the Pats (knowing they wont play again for two weeks) are ready to bring their A game too. This game, the game of football, cannot be played half-heartedly. But it can be played with or without intensity and the Pats choose to play with intensity in order to secure an undefeated regular season and garner a few team and individual records in the process.

        The weather is complimentary to that end. It was seasonably warm in East Rutherford today and temps will remain in the low 40s. It will be dry with a little humidity. The breeze will be light. The long ball will be in play. Don’t miss a play; they’ll throttle up early to try to take the steam out of the Giants. Earlier in the week, the Pats were worried about taking the crowd out of the game but all the Giants season ticket holders sold their seats to Patriots fans for the doe-ray-me. Thanks Giants season ticket holders!

        Like other teams, the Giants cannot play the Patriots straight so we will see the battle of the adjustments tonight. If the Giants blitz, the Patriots will hit the hot receiver. If the Giants cheat up, the Patriots will go long over the top. If the Giants load up the line, Wes Welker is open under.

        When the Giants hold the ball, they’ll run, run, run and run again. They’ve got two great backs who had coming out parties last week. We learned last week that when Eli hands the ball off, he doesn’t throw an interception. Oh yeah.

        Pats will 31, Giants 17.

        freep, are you cheering for the Giants cause you’re a fan or cause you’d like to see them be a spoiler?

        • freepatriot says:

          I got traded to Miami

          since about 1985, I haven’t rooted for a team, I’ve been following Bill Parcells around the NFC East and the AFC East, and almost to Tampa Bay once

          I tend to stay with a team when Mr Bill leaves, until we go somewhere else (cept for that other team from New Jersey)

          in case anybody is a detail oriented as I am, this all started during a conversation (two years after the game) about a mnf game between the St Louis Cardinals and the NY Giants that ended in a tie (The most boring Monday Night Game ever)

          a smart-assed raiders’ fan told me he thought the Cardinals we looking pretty good, so I told him the Giants would win a Superbowl before the Cardinals

          I was wrong

          they won two Superbowls (and counting)

          the raiders’ fan no longer thinks the Cardinals have a chance …

          and I been following Bill Parcells ever since

    • phred says:

      I’m in Neil — and you’ve gotta be kidding if you think a loss won’t hurt the Pats tonight after all the yammering about the ‘72 Dolphins. The Patsies got more riding on this than the Giants by far…

  23. freepatriot says:

    just a thought …

    anybody got an idea who Jimmy Hoffa picked in today’s game ???

    G

    N

    T

    S

    GNTS

    GNTS

    GNTS

    WIN ONE FOR THE FINS

  24. jdmckay says:

    couple things…

    * W’ has created for me a healthy aversion to anything with “Patriot” in the description. Call it visceral aversion.
    * EW, your Brady U-TUBE link is beneath you… it’s like going from William Buckley to Pee Wee Herman in one breath. I don’t think I’ll ever see Brady in the same light again.
    * Go RAIDERS!!!

  25. Rayne says:

    OT — sorry to trash the Trash Talk thread…

    Had a passing thought about Porter Goss and Foggo.

    Was Foggo in Germany and in charge of logistical management for CIA from 2001-2004?

    I guess I don’t know that about Foggo; I know he had some role like that, but I don’t know the time frame.

    And so sorry about the YouTube privileges, EW. You and my kids both in the doghouse on that count. They have played this video far too many times:

  26. watercarrier4diogenes says:

    Not even 3 min. in and Coughlin’s already challenged an obvious call. *sigh*

    I’m not a big Eli fan, by any means, but I’d really like to see the Pats knocked off. (damn, there goes my site license for emptywheel.com…)

  27. joejoejoe says:

    I channel surfing…

    – Giants vs. Pats
    – The Bourne Supremacy
    – Big
    – Sabado Gigante

    So far Matt Damon is best followed closely by Don Francisco then Eli Manning.

  28. phred says:

    EW, after watching that video, I have to say Mr. EW was right to withdraw your YouTube privileges. Surely they have some sort of doggy therapists out there that can cure the MilleniaLab from his unfortunate taste in sports photo montages…

  29. Neil says:

    quote of the broadcast “All of a sudden the Giants are playing like its the Super Bowl”

    I’m not a big fan of Bryant Gumbel or Cris Collinsworth in most broadcasts but paired together they are excellent.

    The Giants defense looks good, and their offense has been moving the ball on the ground AND in the air. Belichick was worried about the speed of the Ginats kick-off return guy and said it on All Access Patriots.

    Great game!

  30. Neil says:

    I’m not sure I agree with Cris about the death penalty for Vince Wolfork for putting his stubby finger in the face of his opponent. His outrage was palpable. That’s the Collingsworth I grew unfond of. He must have got the word, he changed the subject. What a game!

  31. emptywheel says:

    Yeah, I gotta disagree about Collinsworth. he’s driving me nuts.

    And did anyone notice who gambled on that TD? Time to start trashtalking Rodney Roid again.

    • Neil says:

      I’ll disagree with me too EW. He’s regressing to his more usual form -outraged righteousness.

      Yeah, Rodney bit on the pump fake and stopped tracking the target. Bad Rodney. He made two good plays earlier but if he keeps this up, making mistakes that cost points, you may prove clairvoiyant. (Note to self, don’t bet against emptywheel.)

      • Elliott says:

        I don’t like any of the sports paid trash-talkers announcers, so I leave the sound off.

        I turn the sound up just loud enough to hear the crowd, then I listen to music. Don’t always listen to classical, but often it synchs right into the action. I can hear John Facenda.

        • MadDog says:

          I turn the sound up just loud enough to hear the crowd, then I listen to music. Don’t always listen to classical, but often it synchs right into the action. I can hear John Facenda.

          I’m listening to Led Zeppelin’s Ramble On and then Gallows Pole. Seem’s to fit the action too. *g*

          • Neil says:

            I’m listening to Led Zeppelin’s Ramble On and then Gallows Pole. Seem’s to fit the action too. *g*

            They played Ramble On live at O2 in London. God I hope they tour.

  32. Neil says:

    Ooo… look whats in store for Boston area sports fans tomorrow!

    1pm
    Jaguars @ Texans cbs
    Saints @ Bears fox

    4pm
    Steelers @ Ravens cbs
    Cowboys @ Redskins fox

    8pm
    Titans @ Colts nbc

    10pm
    Celtics @ Lakers comcast

  33. Neil says:

    Great blitz by the Giants: the outside lineback didn’t come until Matt Light (LT) locked up on his assignment and the slot back took the outside rusher. There were no backs to pickup the blitznig linebacker. Portends big trouble.

    • phred says:

      Anyone want to make another prediction on the outcome?

      Nope. Not even with 11 minutes left, I’m not gonna touch that with a ten foot pole.

  34. Neil says:

    Boo, they’ve been decent on kick-off coverage this year. I’m suprised the Giants are the team to find the weakness.

    • BooRadley says:

      You’re correct Neil, I just checked Football outsiders and they have the Pats ranked 7th in kick-off coverage out of 32. I stand corrected.

      • Neil says:

        Boo, I think the Pats are ranked near the bottom of the league in red zone offense. Will that problem cause their eventual demise?

        • BooRadley says:

          Yep.

          The Pats are mostly Brady. Even adjusting for the rule changes that make passing easier, he’s having as good a season as any NFL qb has ever had. They’re a finesse team and that’s why they struggle in the red zone. What Pioli and Belichick have done, however, is amazing. You have to go back to four straight SB appearances by the Bills to find a team that has maintained this level of excellence for this long. But that was before the salary cap (1994), so imo, it pales in comparison to what Pioli and Belichick are doing.

          Belichick is a smash mouth guy, but like all great coaches he adapts to his talent. Except for Mankins, the oline are not great run blockers, especially the tackles. Their dline is outstanding, but the linebackers are old and the db’s are pretty average. I think the loss of R. Colvin really hurt them.

            • BooRadley says:

              Thanks Neil. For years I’ve read the Packers beat-writer, Bob McGinn. No fluff, he just tells you why the Pack won or lost. Most of his stuff is behind the Milwaukee Journal Sentinel’s firewall, but well worth the thirty-bucks/year.

  35. BooRadley says:

    Most of the time, the Pats’ dline plays a “two-gap” technique. On that blitz, they played a one-gap technique and caught the oline flat-footed.

    Gap control is key to stopping the run, so it’s only recently that a few teams ask their front dlinemen to do both.

  36. PetePierce says:

    Perfection in Jeopardy: Giants 28, Patriots 23, Third Quarter


    NFL Network Prolongs a Disconnect With Fans ‘Cause they Can’t Even Post a Score Graphic You Can See

    Technology 2009

    After Goddell was backed down by the Unitary Executive U.S. Senate who is gutless to pass any decent legislation and a puppy dog to whatever George Bush wants to do after he gutted the Constitution, but was able to threaten Rodger Goodell into an unprecedented simulcast, you can’t see a graphic that shows the friggin score and time to play the whole friggin game. What’s up with that? They could draw it with a Madden Playboard if nothing else.

    NFL Total acess my ass.

  37. emptywheel says:

    Anyone know where the hell Jabbar Gaffney is? He’s the guy Brady usually is throwing to on those 3rd downs. Brady’s got too much of a honey pass thing with Moss going on today.

  38. emptywheel says:

    joejoejoe

    Yup. Now can we throw it to Gaffney some and put the game away, please?
    Congrats Tom and Randy–you lover boys (see also, YouTube). If you get the records and lose the game, that’s a bad thing.

  39. Rayne says:

    Jeepers, how do these talking heads stand having to sit on each other’s laps for the camera? Do we really need to see Bryant and Chris at all?

  40. phred says:

    Congrats EW, Neil, and all the rest of our resident Pats fans. Still the Giants made ‘em work for it… Think they can go all the way?

  41. Rayne says:

    Well, UM and MTU are tied, 0-0 going into sudden death OT at GLI.

    At least they’d skate right up to the last second instead of standing around waiting out the clock.

    If only I could find it on cable…

  42. watercarrier4diogenes says:

    Wow, that was one helluva game. I think Eli’s got a lot to build on with his performance this time. He’s looked so bad under pressure before, but this time he really ’showed up’.

  43. emptywheel says:

    I’d like to report at least two Bill Belichick smile sightings. He tried awfully hard to keep that grin under wraps, but he was smiling like a little kid.

    • Neil says:

      I’d like to report at least two Bill Belichick smile sightings. He tried awfully hard to keep that grin under wraps,

      Yea and he wasn’t even trying to snow the press about his hard feelings towards Mangini.

      but he was smiling like a little kid.

      Best coach in the modern game? …not until he wnis three more.

    • BlueStateRedHead says:

      But them he benched them or whatever you to do to errant football players. Did not smile once during the presser. Called records whatevers. Did not mention the name of a single individual player who broke a record. The whole control freak nine yards.
      But did quote “Bill” apparently for the first time in history. Freepatriot, you must have been channeling him.
      Good night all.

  44. BooRadley says:

    The fly-half position is a portmanteau of flying half back. This position is one of the most influential on the pitch. The fly-half makes key tactical decisions during a game — whether to kick for space or tactical advantage, move the ball to his outside backs, return the ball to his forwards to drive on to or run with the ball himself. An ideal fly-half should be a fast and deceptive runner, be able to make decisions quickly, direct the backline on defence and attack, have excellent kicking and handling skills and the ability to cope under pressure. Strong leadership skills are crucial for this position, as well as strong defensive skills.

    Games are rarely won on tries alone, and a fly-half who is also the goal kicker (which is often the case) can be the most important player in the side.

    Fly-halves in the International Rugby Hall of Fame include: Phil Bennett (Wales and Lions), Naas Botha (South Africa), Mark Ella (Australia), Grant Fox (New Zealand), Barry John (Wales and Lions), Jack Kyle (Ireland and Lions), Michael Lynagh (Australia), Cliff Morgan (Wales and Lions), Bennie Osler (South Africa), and Hugo Porta (Argentina).

  45. PetePierce says:

    Enjoy this EW. It’s rare enough. Now the pressure is on to do what the Dolphins did but they sure have the way.

  46. Neil says:

    Having been on kick-off coverage and on-side kick coverage teams, I find it fascinating that fly halfs in rugby can make the ball bounce high on first contact with the ground following their kick. My experience in American football was that the first bounce will increase the rotational velocity of the pigskin but not change its vector substantially, and that on the second contact with the ground, it will bounce up high in the air. I agree with EW that fly halfs who can get the ball to bounce high on first contact with the ground would be valuable as coaches or kickers in the NFL.

    Until the ball hits the ground on a kick-off, the kicking team cannot make contect with a member of the receiving team who is trying to catch the ball. Putting the ball in contact with the ground means everyone on the recieving team can be hammered and that increases the odds the kicking team will end up with possession. The high bounce gives kicking team members time to get in position to block oponents and seize possession.

    As usual, watching the game tonight with the folks here on Emptywheel’s football trash-talking thread was AWESOME. Graci.

    • emptywheel says:

      Thank you!!

      I’d say I’ve seen about 10 on sides kicks in the NFl that were better than I could kick–and I was just a pedestrian (ha!) kicker. It’s a skill, but once learned, it’s fairly easy to replicate over and over.

  47. emptywheel says:

    My favorite line of the press conference:

    “Randy Moss, how does it feel to break Rice’s record.”

    “It’s not so much beating Rice’s record. It’s shutting you all up.”

    • Neil says:

      I missed that. Moss is hilarious. He’s a trash-tralker who’s tired of reading sports articles from reporters who call him a talented and lazy player. Take that! Now STFU.

      Boo Ya! Randy Moss. Three more victories… one at a time.

      In the hallway near the coaches offices and meeting rooms at the Razor is a gallery of still photos taken during games. Belichick chooses a photo or two from each game and hangs them right away before the players come back on Wednesday. They are pictures of an agressive play that was significant and may have turned the game towards a Patriot victory. Some photos are pictures of good blocks, good tackle, touchdown pass, interception, fourth down stop, stripping the ball, etc. Belichick uses the photogallery to reward individual playmaking while reinforcing the concept of team… I learned watching “All Access Patriots” on ch5 WCVB Boston.

      If you haven’t yet, get a copy of Halberstam’s “The Education of a Coach”. As you probably know, Halberstam was a fine writer and Belichick and his football lineage are interesting subjects. It tells how Bill Belichick’s life-long (really) interest in football spurred by his father’s coaching accumen as scout at Navy, studious intellectual approach and competitive nature drive his success (but not without significant setbacks, which he has been able to overcome.) Belichick, an economics major if I recall correctly, played middle linebacker at Wesleyan but he skipped a season, his junior year I think. But he played four years of lacrosse, his favorite sport.

  48. BlueStateRedHead says:

    P.s. that’s one trashy youtubie. But Brady did pose for all those photos, so he has to shre some of the blame.

  49. Svensker says:

    Brady is a really good quarterback and Belichick is a great coach. Beli is also a scumbag cheater and Brady is a Golden Boy for Bush. Beli should have been suspended for his cheatin’ ways and I’m looking for a face in the mud baaaaaad sack on the Tomster.

    I HATE the Pats.

  50. CasualObserver says:

    What a good game. My Giants played well, if inconsistently. The Pats pulled out a great win. I believe this game benefits both teams going into the playoffs. It most certainly helped the Giants, and particularly Manning. They now know–for a fact–they can beat anybody. They simply have to be more consistent (and get a new coach…).

    I think there’s a parallel to the democratic congress here. Nobody likes to lose, but the sting of losing is largely nullified by the knowlege that your team has given it an honest, heartfelt, and admirable effort. Congressional democrats please take notice.

    • emptywheel says:

      That’s one thing I don’t understand abotu this game.

      I’ve been saying all season that the most important thing to have–as important as personnel–is a good coach: Dungy, Andy Reid (Jim Johnson), Bilik. But I consider Coughlin to be an abysmal coach. Does Spagnuolo get the credit here?

  51. BooRadley says:

    For anyone interested in the Packer Lion game, this is an excerpt from the Milwaukee Journal Sentinel’s preview. It’s not premium info, so no one should have a problem with access.

    “On average, NFL teams have allowed 32.5 sacks. The Lions have yielded 54; Jon Kitna has gone down 51 times after a league-high 63 in 2006. “A tough sucker,” one scout said. “Little bit above-average talent. Maybe even average. But he’s a tough guy and a leader.” Kitna has been sacked so often because his line is weak and the deep-drop offense of coordinator Mike Martz requires him to hold the ball longer than probably any quarterback in the league. “Their coaches put so much pressure on that position,” another scout said. Kitna, 35, has a passer rating of 83.6, which if it stands would be the second best of his career. As a starter for Seattle, Cincinnati and Detroit, he is 46-64. “They have a lot of turnovers, a lot of sacks, a lot of negative plays,” a third scout said. “A lot of that isn’t attributed to him. It’s attributed to that scheme.[…]”

    • phred says:

      Thanks for that excerpt Boo, as I’m sure you know I’m interested in the Packer-Lion game ; ) Thus far, it appears the Pack is using this game entirely as a prep for the playoffs. Can’t believe they muffed the on-side kick so badly. I bet we will see more of those this game as they can’t afford to blow those for real.

      EW & Neil, I can’t blame Moss for his comment, but his reputation for being lazy has been well earned over many years of petulant play. Everyone knows he has the talent he has demonstrated this year, but when he doesn’t feel like playing, he doesn’t, no matter what that means for his teams. If I were I Viking fan, I would be hard pressed to find something nice to say about the guy.

      • Neil says:

        phred, I’m not saying Moss is a model player or even close to it. I’m just saying he holds the NFL record for touchdown receptions in a season, he’s tired of being criticized by sports reporters, and now he can tell them to get bent. I’d prefer he beat Brady into work in the morning, and worked harder to free himself from double teams but I think he’s earned some latitude for the results he’s delivered. In this game, you’re only as good as your last performance. I think he’s got a few more in him.

        Here’s what i don’t understand, if Rodney Roid Rage is OFF the stuff now, what is the explaination for the post-play extra-curriculars that got him pulled from the field on the Giants’ 4th Q drive last night?

        • phred says:

          Neil — I think we agree about Moss, he’s been great this year, I’m just saying the flak he’s gotten from the press about his past behavior wasn’t unwarranted.

          As for Rodney, I’m sure his charm comes naturally ; ) Yep.

          • emptywheel says:

            Though I gotta say–I think the press was stupid for assuming, when it was announced that the Pats had picked up Moss, that he wouldn’t work out. Belichick was not about to take someone he believed would be a discipline problem (on the field at least). I assumed then that Belichick had had a serious heart to heart with Randy and had convinced himself (correctly) that Moss would work his ass off in the Belichick system.

            • phred says:

              I agree, I think Belichick is too shrewd to pick up a guy he couldn’t count on. And in the interest of full disclosure, last year Brett was pushing hard to bring Moss up to Green Bay, a move I vociferously opposed (to anyone who cared to listen ; ) I have a long history of disaffection for Moss. Perhaps he has finally changed his spots, but it will take another season or two to convince me.

  52. masaccio says:

    I recorded the game and watched it with a 30-second fast forward jump after most plays. The Giants were consistently getting plays off faster than the Patriots, by 5 or 6 seconds, so I had to rewind to get back to see the plays. That meant I didn’t have to listen to the announcers. Also, there were a lot fewer commercials. The Giants drive at the end of the first half was really pretty, so we watched without much jumping.

  53. BooRadley says:

    FWIW, all the Pats had to give up for Moss was a fourth round draft choice. As far as Al Davis was concerned, it was a fifth round choice, because the Pats always draft at the end of the round.

    • emptywheel says:

      Yeah but Belichick has proven in the past that he’d prefer not to have that dissension on his teams, regardless of how little or how much he paid for a player. He was not about to sign on Moss unless he was pretty damn sure that Moss would play nice–nice, and hard.

  54. Neil says:

    I think we agree too. A disatisfied, lazy, disinterested, under-performing Moss would be worse than no Moss at all.

    I’m quiet sure everyone who has responsibility for player personnel in the Pats organization made it clear to Moss what would be expected of him and what was being offered in return.

    I didn’t watch the postgame show so I don’t know what questions were asked or answered about Rodney Roid Rage Harrison. I’ll see if i can dig up some info. (I don’t mind holding a guy accountable for abusing the federal drug laws in order to gain an unfair advantage in professional sports but apart from that, Rodney has been the backbone of this defense for a while now. I think his performance and leadership have set the standard of exrtemely high expectations that are indicative of this fine defensive team.)

  55. bmaz says:

    Howdy folks. Have been away, quite unexpectedly, since Friday night. I was “disappeared” by dark, sinister forces. I probably would have been in better hands with Cheney and his torture team. My rendition team was a bunch of Hoosier hooligans, fresh off the boat from Indiana, in a limo full of liquor. The goal was Vegas for the Pats game I was told. Somehow, that morphed into an Indian Casino and various other, shall we say, “entertainment venues”. Ouch. My head hurts. I have not read the thread yet, but see Phred is back. Not real happy with Phred right now; she goes MIA for a week, and the Pack get sacked by the Chigago Cubs Bears. Phred, please don’t let this happen again. Also, must congratulate EW, Neil et. al. for the Patriot’s glorious victory. They are going to be an insufferable lot if the Pats follow through on the next three games…..

    • emptywheel says:

      Hold on. We’re an insufferable lot in any case. That’s not going to change regardless of the outcome of the season.

      And make sure you play that YouTube–it’s guaranteed to fix your achy head. ;-p

    • phred says:

      Hiya bmaz — Sorry to let you down last week, I didn’t have a chance to change into my Packer jersey before heading out into the snow, so I take full responsibility for that debacle ; ) I am appropriately attired today however, and our Pack is doing much much better. Happier now?

      Sorry about your head by the way. So what’s the Hoosier connection?

      At any rate, EW is quite right, they’re already insufferable, but I am NOT looking forward to how much MORE insufferable they are likely to get… ;-p

  56. emptywheel says:

    Speaking of soft porn, phred, mr. emptywheel is downstairs reporting that Favre is pinching folks’ butts…

    Any comment on the butt-pinching going on?

    • phred says:

      Yeah, I saw that, but I didn’t catch who the butt belonged to… Brett had a big mischievous smile on his face afterwards… Next thing you know he’ll be dipping one of his teammates pigtails dreadlocks in an ink well when they watch the tapes this week ; )

    • bmaz says:

      They have a very “wide stance” on such things up there in the Minnesota/Wisconsin area you know…

      Phred – old college friends in town for New Years and the Insight.com Bowl between Indiana and Oklahoma State tomorrow night.

      • phred says:

        You’re a Hoosier??? Mr. phred is a Boilermaker and likes to point out that Hoosier stands for “whose yer Daddy” ; ) Sounds like you guys had a good time, hopefully you’ll recover enough to have fun at the game tomorrow. Me, I’d Sooner not watch it (ha ha, I crack myself up ; )

        • bmaz says:

          By the way, we are just chock full of Okies from Muskogee this week with the Nooners from Oklahoma here for the Fiesta Bowl, and the Cowpokes from Oklahoma State her for the Insight.com Bowl. It is actually great sport when encountering them to tell tell Oklahoma folks how you respect their underdog program and what a thrill it must have been for them to watch Barry Sanders in college; and to tell the OSU folks that they have just never been the same since Barry Switzer left….

          • freepatriot says:

            dude, get your geography straight

            Sooners are from Oklahoma

            Okies are from California

            Sooners are the ones who stayed in Oklahoma

            Okies are the ones who left Oklahoma to move to California

            all we got in California is a bunch of Okies, Arkies, and Texans, don’tchaknow ???

            in case you’re wondering, as a first generation descendant of an Okie, I’m legally considered a “Prune Picker”

            well, that’s what my Daddy told me …

              • freepatriot says:

                I was gonna mention that one of the groups was smarter than the other

                guess which group is smarter

                hint, it ain’t the ones who are so confused that they think they’re Okies when they’re really Sooners

                btw, family rumor has it that Grandpa was expelled from texas at the age of 13 because his IQ was too high …

                and Arkansas is the only State that Oklahoma can legally make fun of

    • bmaz says:

      Well, there you go, that explains it. All likely an innocent mistake. Brett probably thought it was Jenny McCarthy, instead of Mike McCarthy. Or maybe Mary McCarthy…..

      Phred – Noooo. Here is the sum of my knowledge of Indiana: They are called Hoosiers, the Indy 500 is there, Bobby Knight used to coach there, and Gomer Pyle sings some song about it. These are guys from Indiana that went to school with me at ASU.

      • phred says:

        Whew! That’s a relief, for a minute there I thought you were like one of those Log Cabin Republicans, someone who both went to the Big 10 and resents it all the same ; )

        Keep yankin’ the chains of those Okies, they’ll never know it was you ; )

  57. emptywheel says:

    Bummer. I was absolutely right that one of the AFC games would be an upset. Only it was the wrong game: SD wins, Steelers lose, Steelers have to face the Jags.

    Meanwhile, don’t tell anyone, but I’m rooting for the Colts tonight–I’d love to see the Brownies go.

    • phred says:

      Yep, not a pretty picture for the Steelers. And I’m with you, I’d love to see the Browns in the playoffs… Go Colts!

  58. emptywheel says:

    I pick: Washington, Jacksonville (by a lot–sorry Steelers), and San Diego. I think Tampa Bay/NY will be close. THough if Eli plays like he did the other day, they’ll win.

    Who knew the NFC would get interesting all of a sudden?

    • CasualObserver says:

      NFC East is resurgent, it appears, which is all good as far as I’m concerned. I like defense, 10-7 defensive battles, and smash-mouth football. NFL marketers don’t like it, but I sure do–it’s NFC east heritage.

      EW, regarding your Coughlin comment upthread–my impression is that he builds solid teams, but I fault him in two areas–play calling, and team management. He does not motivate and prepare his team for some specific games. The Giants are therefore very inconsistent over a season, and they appear unprepared to play some games. I feel he also has difficulty meshing with some key players. We lost Barber in this way. I don’t view him as a bad coach–he wins too many games to make that claim imo, but I also don’t think he’ll ever win a superbowl.

      fwiw…

      • emptywheel says:

        Fair enough. As I was watching the Pats game, I knew the Giants would do a few stupid things, bc they’re a Coughlin team. As a Pats fan, it was pretty encouraging. They won’t get those breaks when (if) they play the Colts to go to the Super Bowl.

  59. BayStateLibrul says:

    Pat’s weakness…

    “Eli Manning could have spent a good portion of last Saturday night’s game wearing a tux.” Ryan, Globe

    • bmaz says:

      To compound the issue, Ryan’s statement is true despite the fact that Eli’s game is nowhere near refined enough to warrant a top hat and tails.

      • BayStateLibrul says:

        Glad your back.
        I was worried about your sudden disapperance
        You’ve heard that McNamee has hired Ward, to counter Hardin.
        Ah, the drama…
        Tinker to Evans to Chance.

        “In the event there’s a lawsuit, we’ve planned for that,” Ward, who represents McNamee, told the Daily News. “We think it would be frivolous, but we’re planning for that. With regards to the federal investigation, we’re confident that (McNamee’s) done everything he’s legally obligated to do. It’s unfortunate that this whole situation had to go down the way it went down. (McNamee) was friends with Roger and I think he hopes Roger understands that he had to tell the truth.
        “Brian wants him to know that what he did, he was legally obligated to do. He’s got a wife and kids. He’s not going to go to jail for Roger Clemens.”

        Is Mike Wallace really 89 years old?

        • bmaz says:

          48 hour long rambles (see comment 175 above), filled with much booze and no sleep, do not come as easy nor as painlessly as they used to. I am STILL one hurtin cowboy. This whole thing could have never happened if my wife and daughter had not gone to visit the in-laws for a couple of days. I am thinking of suing them for my extensive damages….

  60. BayStateLibrul says:

    2008 gift to Emptywheel (if she hasn’t read it)

    Charlie Pierce’s “Moving the Chains” (bio of Brady)

  61. bmaz says:

    Oops, as to MacNamee. I have never heard of Earl Ward in my life. I am sure he is a perfectly fine lawyer; but if he can hold a candle to Rusty Hardin, I’ll eat any number of hats. Ward has, however, hired Richard Emery, who has a little bit of a reputation in libel and slander areas; but I think this is mostly for show by Ward, I don’t think anything will come of it. Irrespective of that, Ward and Emery combined are insufficient firepower compared to Hardin. All that said, having kick ass, out of this world lawyers does not guarantee anyone, much less Clemens, success; and I am not trying to allege that it does. However, it does provide a path to make things VERY interesting along the way; and that is what I am saying. If Clemens and Hardin play this out, as it appears they are going to, it will be fascinating.

    • BayStateLibrul says:

      Yeah, sports will have plenty of orange alerts in 2008.

      Brady does Dallas?

      GLENDALE, Ariz., Feb. 4 – The New England Patriots last night completed the first 19-0 season in NFL history, defeating the Dallas Cowboys, 31-28, to win their fourth Super Bowl in seven seasons.

      The game was marred by one of the more bizarre plays in postseason history when a man carrying a champagne bottle ran onto the field and tackled Randy Moss as Moss was striding toward the end zone after catching a pass from Tom Brady. Late Sunday night, authorities identified the troubled trespasser as Mercury Morris, a member of the 1972 Miami Dolphins.

      “We don’t know how he got past security,” said an Arizona State Police officer. “But we confiscated a tape from the Patriots that showed Morris standing on the Cowboys sideline throughout the game. Thank goodness for the Estrella tape.” Shaughnessey, Jan 1, 2008

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