343 replies
    • Neil says:

      That’s not a prediction, I just wanted an excuse to say “zed”, which as you know is uncouth in emptywheel-dom. This IS still a trash-talking thread, you know.

  1. BlueStateRedHead says:

    Rookie fan here with an inexperienced question. Are the Giants wearing little square thingies on their backs, although not Manning? Is that exceptional?

    • bmaz says:

      Yes. Those are combination GPS and full body heater units so that the city slickers from Manhattan know which way to run and can stay warm.

      • BlueStateRedHead says:

        Ah, that’s why Bush’s had his suits tailored with a little square on his back. To know which way to open his mouth.

  2. randiego says:

    i got EPUd on the previous thread. the life of a charger fan is never easy. red sox fans could relate if they werent so arrogant. somebody go back and paste in my stuff please.

    • emptywheel says:

      They did pretty good tonight, though. Kind of makes you wish it was healthy on healthy. As someone with a history of knee problems (and a history of laughing at the lacrosse guys with the ouchie toes in the trainers room), I hate seeing knees factor into the outcome of a game.

    • phred says:

      Sorry ’bout your Boltz randiego — any idea why they stuck with a gimpy Rivers in the 4th rather than going to Volek?

  3. PetePierce says:

    Say it isn’t so. Tell me we don’t have “Heater Gate” at Lambeau.

    No heaters for the Giant benches? But the Pakc is using heaters–how Green Bay cold oblivious is that?

    • bmaz says:

      Not GB’s fault. The Giants had special fancy dan candyass heated benches with special helmet warmers brought in on their own at the last minute. If they don’t work properly; too bad.

      • PetePierce says:

        If I were out there, I’d be using every candyass heating device known to man. I just got a neck gator for 25 degree temps. *g*

        I noticed Favre nixed using a glove on his left non-passing hand.

  4. phred says:

    Ok, now we’ve spotted the Gents two scores just like we did the Boyz (can’t help it if the Gents only got FGs). Now it’s time for the Pack to move that ball down field….

  5. Muzzy says:

    No heaters for the Giants appears to be giving them some kind of edge. Once you’re frozen, you can just forget about it, or something – as long as your appendages remain intact.

    Eli and his cadre of big&tall receivers are playing very impressively so far.

    • phred says:

      PetePierce put his money on the Gents for the hubcap. Neil is an old Giants fan, but wants to see a Pack/Pats SuperBowl. So you’re not entirely alone…

    • PetePierce says:

      Am i the only Giants fan in the room?

      I think Muzzy @ 26 is. Part of me wants to see Eli do well, because of so much criticism I think wasn’t warranted in the pre-season, and part of me wants to see Favre win a Super Bowl.

      You’re in Texas and you’re still pulling for the Giants?

  6. BlueStateRedHead says:

    no. 17 has a soft protuberance under his no. if it’s a shoulder pad then his shoulders half way down his spine.

  7. bobschacht says:

    I had a brief power outage that took my teevee down, so I missed Burris’s catch (saw the replay). I had a few minutes of panic there while my cable box figured out how to restore itself!

    Bob in HI

  8. Neil says:

    The Giants receivers are having a game and so is Jacobs but the Packers defense is out-hitting the Giants in the first half.

    If the Packers have delivered their toughest shots, and the Giants can figure out how to put it in the end zone, we’ll have a ballgame.

    • emptywheel says:

      It’s very cold. The Giants forgot to switch out Good Eli for Bad Eli, as they have on every other bad weather game this year.

      And Favre and Donald Driver still have it.

    • bobschacht says:

      “Can I get a first half re-cap and a second half prediction?”

      First half was the tortoise vs. the hare. Manning slow and steady, two field goals. Packers crummy except for one play.

      Bob in HI

  9. CasualObserver says:

    Giants playing good enough to win, but also playing good enough to lose. Not enough pressure on Favre. But overall, they’re doing ok.

  10. radiofreewill says:

    randiego – Great Season for the Bolts!

    “I never thought of losing, but now that it’s happened, the only thing is to do it right. That’s my obligation to all the people who believe in me. We all have to take defeats in life.”

    ~ Muhammad Ali

    (after losing to Ken Norton in a hell of a great fight, Mar 31, 1973)

  11. randiego says:

    Back home. has anyone reported on what the deal was with LT? He was reported 100% for this game, so I’m confused.

    I’m still under-impressed with the Patriots. The weather never seemed to figure in, and the refs let it be too. It feels like death by a thousand cuts. No pressure on Brady at all, and as I said, give him time and you are dead. More under-impressed by the lack of imagination by Ted Cottrell, and lack of boldness on offense.

    I loved how the offense came out with bare sleeves – a statement to all who think So Cal teams are soft.

    Welcome to the life of a Chargers fan. I guess we’ll see the Pats next year. I took the points at Caliente, and won some $$, but it’s not enough.

    Junior Seau is dead to me. Go Green Bay!

    • BooRadley says:

      roughing the passer

      You can’t hit the qb after he throws the ball.

      Nick Collins is not the smartest of the Packer players.

      • phred says:

        I think Collins didn’t see Manning get the ball off because of his angle and the way the ball was batted away. The way Collins picked up the ball after the hit, made it look like he thought he knocked it loose.

        randiego — LT got hurt again, apparently badly enough that he couldn’t continue. I don’t know any more than that, sorry.

  12. bmaz says:

    The Giants are filthy dirty louses. They are hitting people late and intentionally jabbing their hands into Packers faces. What a bunch of worthless cheap punks.

    • CasualObserver says:

      Even Roidney Harrison call them cheap shot artists.

      With gossipy lines like that, why not work for Fox?

  13. emptywheel says:

    Now, I’m kinda sorta rooting for the Packers. But that sure didn’t look like a TD to me.

    Though Coughlin must have his red flag somewhere between layer number 43 and layer number 48.

    • phred says:

      He had possession when he did that little stutter step. If Coughlin thought it was out, he’d have tossed the hanky. Can’t afford to lose the time out though, given the early one they had to take.

  14. phred says:

    I don’t know what you all think, but the cold seems to be much less of a factor on the passing game than I expected…

    • BooRadley says:

      I don’t think there is much wind right now, so it’s easier on the quarterbacks. Cathcing, however, has still gotta be tough. All the more reason Toomer’s catch was so amazing.

      • phred says:

        Didn’t you figure we would see a lot more dropped balls and some turnovers? I’m really surprised how well everyone seems to be handling the ball.

      • bobschacht says:

        In response to phred @ 133

        I don’t think there is much wind right now, so it’s easier on the quarterbacks. Cathcing, however, has still gotta be tough. All the more reason Toomer’s catch was so amazing.

        Not to mention Plaxico’s 10 catches for 140 yards! That would be plenty good for a game in Florida. That ball must feel like a rock. I’m waiting for someone’s fingers to break off.

        Memo to players: count fingers before leaving field.

        Bob in HI

      • emptywheel says:

        I suspect it makes difference that Good Eli doesn’t throw bullets like Favre does. Only Driver–who’s been doing tihs for years–can handle those in this cold.

    • Neil says:

      I haven’t heard any mention, are any of the other Mannings in attendance? Archie likes to be inconspicuous, but it would be surprising not to have any of the family there.

      Oh he’s there… he didn’t have a reason to attend the game at the Razor earlier today.

  15. madmommy says:

    Bradshaw is amazing-a head shorter than everyone else yet he often carries a couple of defenders on his back. Plenty o’ time left, Farve is gonna win this game.

    I haven’t heard any mention, are any of the other Mannings in attendance? Archie likes to be inconspicuous, but it would be surprising not to have any of the family there.

    • phred says:

      Funny you ask, they just mentioned his folks are there at Lambeau. His brothers watching on TV (apparently Peyton didn’t want to jinx baby bro).

    • randiego says:

      Great game, but I hope Bad Eli shows up soon. Archie Manning can kiss the ass of all fans here in SoCal.

  16. bmaz says:

    I have requested that Jessica Simpson be immediately airlifted into Lambeau in a pink Number 10 Giants jersey to root for Eli.

  17. CasualObserver says:

    What a great pass to Driver. What a good game.

    Speaking of being on game, did anyone see Obama speak at MLK’s church in Atlanta today? I had a lump in my throat through much of it. That’s the man we want, in my opinion.

  18. bobschacht says:

    Its at this point of the game where Favre tends to press too hard (witness: Interception), and Manning & the Giants tend (until recently) to fold. Who will lose the game?

    Bob in HI

  19. CasualObserver says:

    If the power of the presidency is really the bully pulpit, then Obama is the man. imo, of course.

  20. CasualObserver says:

    Whale of a game. Giants should win. Good return by Hixson. Giants are just too good for the Packers. At home, in the freezing cold. Giants are still too good.

  21. Neil says:

    Big drive here for the Giants. Good start with that KO return too.

    Ok, I want Favre/Brady Super Bowl but I already know I’m not winning the hubcap this week, and the Giants must remember the fresh drubbing they took in Week 17 at the hands of the Patriots, and don’t you think the Giants would be a little easier opponent than the Packers?

  22. madmommy says:

    Damn it! Penalties are killing me! The matchup between Burris and Harris is quite something.

    The NY coach looks to be in danger of facial frostbite. Somebody get the man a scarf!

  23. Neil says:

    when it goes bad, it goes bad. the kicker looked like he had a wierd motion, like he’s so cold he couldn’t kick with his normal motion.

    • madmommy says:

      He’s a kicker, surely he could keep himself close to the heaters until time to run on the field. Did he not get the heated, battery powered pants that were all the rage last week?

  24. CasualObserver says:

    Did you see Coughlin get on the kicker after that miss? That is bad coaching. You don’t attack your kicker after a miss, you encourage him. Bad coaching.

  25. CasualObserver says:

    The Giants have dominated this game. Aside from the one pass and run for GB, it’s all Giants. They have dominated.

  26. Neil says:

    NFC championship game tied with 4 mins left and Joe Buck says “You should knw, they had a moment of silence today, for the bla bla bla bla” STFU. there’s a great game going on. Stop talking ridiculous crap.

  27. prostratedragon says:

    Radio guys are saying they should just fall on the ball. In -20 wc that’s like falling on a rock!

    • emptywheel says:

      Sorry. One of the first things you learn, really, is to get possession and THEN try to be a hero–that should hold in any weather. If the Packers lose this–that’s why.

      • prostratedragon says:

        Can’t run with what you don’t have.

        Actually, seems to me that the extra dimension here has been Burress. He’s still as tough a match-up in the pros as he was in college, even thogh I think he’ll never have much finesse.

        he missed the kick!! LOL! Games are such fun!

    • prostratedragon says:

      You know, I’ve heard that the toss winner eventually wins about half the time, but that it happens on their first ot possession at most half the time. So all the toss loser has to do is play as if their lives were on the line …

  28. madmommy says:

    So, was it just me or did Howie and Jimmy look like complete idiots in the pre game and half time shows with their choices of headgear?


  29. CasualObserver says:

    What a pity. The team played well enough to win, and of all things, the coach has become an obstacle to victory. Goddam Coughlin.

  30. Gnome de Plume says:

    Betsy just told me to come join you guys. I ambidextrous. I like both teams. My team won already. I din’t know Howie was from Chahlestown. I grew up in Conkid and Bedfid.

  31. phred says:

    Congrats to the Giants fans.

    All in all I can’t complain — we’ve had a much better season than anyone expected. I’m damn proud of my Packers : )

    • bobschacht says:

      Congrats to the Giants fans.

      All in all I can’t complain — we’ve had a much better season than anyone expected. I’m damn proud of my Packers : )

      Amen to that! Great game!

      Bob in HI

  32. bobschacht says:

    Sigh. Favre throws another one away. He’s a great quarterback, but sometimes he believes in himself too much.

    Congratulations, TexBetsy!

    Bob in HI

  33. madmommy says:

    That was a hell of a game. Once my heart starts beating properly I might be able to appreciate it more.

  34. prostratedragon says:

    And again, ow!

    For whatever obscure reason, years of living in NY never endeared the Jynts to me, but congrats to them. I think it will be a good Super Bowl.

    • BlueStateRedHead says:

      BayBlueStater here. The media might make it sound that way. Pats/NY does not have the same historical and emotional weight as Red Sox/the team with the names in the Mitchell report. At least not for the Baystaters. Coach Bill has a thing about a NY coach, but that’s his thing.

      What I fear most is that they are going to combine football and politics. Any one know what that will entail beside pain and rage?

      Is there anyway to avoid watching on Fox short of being in AZ itself. The NFL channel?

      Thanks to everyone. I have enjoyed watching with you.

      • madmommy says:

        I will not be watchin gany of the FOX pregame show. Thanking the goddess I have the NFL channel, that will be on till the game starts in my house. What in the hell makse FOX think that the football demographic will want political propaganda mixed into their Holiest Sunday of the year?

          • madmommy says:

            Just from the ads I have seen for the coverage on SB Sunday, there will be a show with Howie (Tough Guys, I think) for an hour, then another hour show with Troy Aikman. After that is the FOX pre-game show, which will be the one with the politics/football mix, staring Shep Smith and some other wanker. Once the game starts, it goes back to the regular A-team FOX sports football guys. I’ll pass.

      • phred says:

        Listen to the game on Westwood One (I think it will be carried on 830 or 850 a.m.). It might also be carried on WBCN (104.1 FM, I think). Put on the radio and turn the sound down on the TV : )

  35. madmommy says:

    So now the question is, can the G-Men beat the Pats? Let the SUper Bowl trash talking begin in 3…2…1!

    • CasualObserver says:

      Frankly, I don’t give a damn. The Giants have played wonderfully, and they are not cheap-shot artists, in spite of what bmaz says. There was only one roughing call in this game, and it was called on the Packers, not the Giants. I personally feel that the Patriots must be favored. But I will root for the Giants.

      • madmommy says:

        I will probably go with the Giants in the SB. Eli is a hometown boy, and he has played very well after taking a huge load of crap from the NY media for some time now. On the other hand, if the Pats lose then we get to keep listening to Mercury Morris and his horrible “we’re still undefeated rap”.

  36. phred says:

    Huh — no one wins the hubcap. Maybe we need a new trophy — nobody won last week either. Maybe CTuttle hid it under his bed and doesn’t want to share ; )

  37. radiofreewill says:

    Congrats to the Giants!

    My new Favorite Team to Beat the Cheats!

    Great Season for the Pack and Cheese Everywhere!

  38. PetePierce says:

    Now it’s going to be the lowest-rated Super Bowl ever, coming up. No one will want to watch Patriots-Giants.

    It could turn out to be one of those SB’s that are close actually.

  39. Neil says:

    Now it’s going to be the lowest-rated Super Bowl ever, coming up. No one will want to watch Patriots-Giants.

    That’s because new york and boston are small media markets.

  40. bmaz says:

    Um, yes; unfortunately I am a lifetime Packers fan. I have never cared for Coughlin much from back at Jacksonville and am convinced that the Giants indeed intentionally make certain hits and actions (it is actually pretty well documented) attempting to draw reactions and penalties. That said, the Giants just flat played a better game, took the Pack out of theirs, and clearly deserved to win. My hat is off to them.

  41. der1 says:

    Ok. So I’m not disappointed that the Patriots will be meeting the Giants again, hooray for Eli just ’cause he deserves it but was looking forward to Brady vs. Favre. I’m left wondering though what to make of all this god prayin’ stuff and Huck’s god and Mitt’s god and whoever else wants to throw a god in, hell maybe a few goddess’ too. My wonder is what kind of god would allow these 2 teams to win over all the other god prayin’ and god fearin’ teams when those 2 teams represent the most liberal part of god’s most favored nation evah! Why Massachusetts now lets people of the same sex have legal unions or marriage is it? yuck! and what more could I say about that Sodom & Gomorrah of the east coast – NYC? God? what say you? is this how you REALLY want it to turn out? Go Pats!

    • madmommy says:

      God could give a rip about a football game, or a baseball game or any other game. I get tired of hearing it from players, personally.

    • phred says:

      If you haven’t read Colbert’s book, I highly recommend the bit about praying to God about sports, it’s a hoot ; )

  42. CasualObserver says:

    Thinking about bluestateredheads’ thoughtful comment…It’s worth considering the similarities between the packaging of sports and the packaging of politics. The coverage of presidential politics this year by the major media outlets has been shameful, and harmful to our democracy. The ‘analysis’ that has gone into picking sports favorites (Giants vs. Packers, for example) is no more bogus than what goes on in our electoral media coverage. It is about, imo, setting up as dramatic a horserace story as possible, at the expense of reality.

    • BlueStateRedHead says:

      My thoughts, exactly. And, as it to make it crystal clear that they are one and the same and at least for fox, both are for profit entertainment, Fox aired an advert for an upcoming movie about a terra attack and assassination of the POTUS.

      Which reminds me is there a SOTUS coming up?

  43. CasualObserver says:

    bmaz, I totally respect your support for the Pack. Favre is one of the greats to ever play. As was Starr. But I have not seen this cheapshot claim that you make against my Giants.

    • bmaz says:

      Eh, I’ll leave it go; it was not the deciding factor. If you look around, you will find some discussion on the subject. I was first alerted to it on a Sunday morning ESPN show maybe halfway through the season; can’t remember which show, Sports Reporters, NFL Countdown or SportsCenter.

  44. CasualObserver says:

    bmaz, if you look around, you’ll find discussion on just about any subject. Including that Kerry was a war coward and McCain fathered black babies.

  45. BayStateLibrul says:

    Murderer’s Row?
    Shaugnessey’s comparing our Pats to the 1927 Yanks.
    Is that heresy?
    Ruth, Gehrig, Meusel, Lazzeri, and Dugan.
    Brady, Moss, Welker, Maroney, Bruschi, Seau, Ad Infinitum.
    The Yanks swept the Pirates in the ‘27 World Serious.
    Will our Pats kick Manning’s arse?
    Of course.

    • Evolute says:


      I would move to Canada if

      ush has one iota of influence on anything public after 1.20.09, particularly the national pastime.

      thnx for the link…

      “‘He wanted to be Kenesaw Mountain Landis,’ America’s first baseball commissioner, legendary for his power and dictatorial style.

      Like all idiots, ush is just exasperating.

      If Websters ever tried to define the phrase, “more is less,” they’d only have to insert his mug shot to say it all.

  46. Neil says:

    Let’s see. They were wrong on Hillary Clinton, essentially nominating her for the presidency months before a primary was held. In Iowa, they were wrong on Mike Huckabee and Barack Obama, John Edwards and Clinton (again). In New Hampshire, wrong on Obama, Clinton (yet again), and — at least earlier in the campaign season — John McCain. In Michigan, wrong on McCain (again) and Mitt Romney. Just remind me, in this strange presidential nomination season in which each obscure primary is treated as if it were the night of the presidential election, when have they been right?

    Jay Rosen, Mindlessness in the Media, Campaign 2008, Jan.20,2008

  47. randiego says:

    Thanks for the well-wishes everyone. It was tough watching that game bleed away… a very winnable game.

    Disappointed in the offensive play-calling the red-zone, and punting on you’re own side of the field with the game on the line.

    And, like everyone else, wondering if we would have had a different outcome with Volek in the game in the 2nd half.

    Heckuva gutsy performance by Rivers though.

  48. BayStateLibrul says:

    Bmaz, Q and A on our friend Roger

    Q: Are there legitimate medical reasons for the treatments that Clemens

    A: The only people who legitimately might need vitamin B12 injections would be those with confirmed diagnoses of pernicious anemia, said Dr. George Blackburn, director of the Center for the Study of Nutrition Medicine at Beth Israel Deaconess Medical Center. “And it’s virtually impossible” to get pernicious anemia in modern America, where there is ample access to fish, eggs, and dairy products.For anyone else who uses vitamin B12 shots, the only benefit is in their head, he said. Moreover, since B12 is a water soluble vitamin, extra doses of B12 just pass through the body and out in the urine.

    Lidocaine, a painkiller used to treat pain in a localized site, is a different story. Many athletes who have pain in a specific site do get injections of Lidocaine or other painkillers such as Marcaine, which lasts three to four hours, much longer than Lidocaine, said Dr. Zahid H. Bajwa, an assistant professor of anesthesia and neurology at Beth Israel Deaconess.

    There has been speculation that Clemens may have had Lidocaine injections into his buttocks. “I don’t know why you would inject Lidocaine deep into this muscle if in fact he did,” said Dr. Gary Wadler, a spokesman for the American College of Sports Medicine and a member of the World Anti-Doping Agency. In general, painkillers like Lidocaine are used very specifically to block nerves – and therefore – pain in a very specific part of the body, such as certain teeth during dental procedures or around aching joints.

    JUDY FOREMAN, Boston Globe

    • bmaz says:

      BSL – Jeebus, I dunno. I have questionable skills as a lawyer; sure don’t have many (any) as a doctor. To the best of my limited knowledge, many people have used B-12 as an energy booster; but there is no medical evidence it really does anything. I have heard of people (non-athlete; was a former client, a hypochondriac lady that was convinced she had chronic fatigue syndrome. Lyme disease or some shit like that) getting B-12 shots for fatigue; my guess is the doctor was giving it to her to shut her up. As to lidocaine, that does have pain management uses. That i can relate from personal experience; got a shot in my knee once before a state tennis tournament in high school. Fucking shot hurt WAY more than the pain it was meant to fix; although after recovering from that trauma, it did help considerably. No idea why you would get one in the butt, unless you had some type of glut or perhaps groin problem; no clue. Listen, Clemens is quite likely guilty as hell; I just have enormous problems with the way things are being done against him; as to my beefs, it really doesn’t matter whether he is guilty or not. I am also conditioned, as a condition of what I have done as a career, to discount any evidence that is not supported and/or corroborated. I think that, in this regard, most everything against individuals in the Mitchell report, including the part against Clemens, was stunningly and unethically lacking in a proper foundation. I lost a great deal of respect for George Mitchell from him having signed off on this pile of crap with the inclusion of the personal stuff as to individuals. the other part of the report was fine, but there is no way they should have included the reckless and flimsy personal stuff.

      • BayStateLibrul says:

        Yeah. I understand your position.
        Mitchell was in a helluva Catch-22 position.
        In my opinion, my naming names it gave credence to the problem…
        As you say though, he has run the risk of defaming someone who might be
        innocent… which is bad… nobody wants to be caught up in a wide net.
        The problem is there is no DNA evidence…
        Oh well, I just thought Pettite handled the situation more professionally, but Roger, I dunno, but maybe we will find out….
        Perhaps that’s why God made apples and oranges…

    • Evolute says:

      A: The only people who legitimately might need vitamin B-12 injections would be those with confirmed diagnoses of pernicious anemia, said Dr. George Blackburn…For anyone else who uses vitamin B-12 shots, the only benefit is in their head, he said. Moreover, since B-12 is a water soluble vitamin, extra doses of B12 just pass through the body and out in the urine

      False. B12 shots are used extensively in the entertainment industry. For talent that often arrives for a 5 AM make-up call hungover and has to look “their best” under the lights, it is a regular procedure.

      Years ago the set medic would give any “hurting” crew member a B-12 shot. I guarantee it helps.

  49. bmaz says:

    Easy for Pettite though. He wasn’t the main focus of the individual portion of the Mitchell Report (Clemens was) and nobody was out for blood against him (with Clemens they were). There was also the fact that he was guilty and admitted so. Now, again, Clemens is most likely guilty, but we really have no credible evidence of that, and Clemens denies it. MacNamee is simply not credible. He may well be truthful; but that is different from being credible. I was/am a mediocre lawyer at best, and I could absolutely kill MacNamee on the witness stand; to the point where even you wouldn’t believe him if he told you the sky was blue afterwards. There has got to be more than MacNamee or it just doesn’t hold up legally. In the court of public opinion, the verdict is already signed, sealed and delivered.

  50. parbuster says:

    For anyone else who uses vitamin B-12 shots, the only benefit is in their head, he said. Moreover, since B-12 is a water soluble vitamin, extra doses of B12 just pass through the body and out in the urine

    Patently false. My wife and I had a virulent strain of Asian flu a number of years ago, and within 30 minutes of getting a B-12 injection, we both felt fine. Only a witch doctor would think that our TWO similar experiences were no more than a placebo effect.

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