What Ever Happened to “Upperdown Votes”?
Say what you will about Senator Reid. But right now, he’s in a giant showdown with Mitch McConnell (and, disgustingly, Jello Jay Rockefeller), and I guarantee you’d rather have Reid win than McConnell.
The Republicans have refused to allow an "upperdown" vote on any amendment since the Leahy substitution amendment went through. They’ve called for a cloture vote to vote on the SSCI bill, with just one minor amendment. Which means, if cloture passes, we’ll get screwed by Jello Jay, and Bush will get his wet dream of a spying bill.
Reid, on the other hand, wants a fair hearing for the amendments being offered–including immunity, but also things like oversight on minimization and restrictions on wiretaps of Americans overseas. He basically wants the Senate to have a chance to improve on the work of the SSCI. And though he’s not saying it, several of these amendments, though they propose something the Administration has said would be okay, would really cause Bush to veto the bill.
The idea is cloture allows Bush to conduct his spying as he wants to, with Congressional approval. Whereas Reid wants to deliver what Bush has said he needs, rather than what he really wants but won’t admit to.
The cloture vote is scheduled for 4:30 on Monday. We’ve got three and a half days to get at least three of the following people to flip their votes from the vote on the Leahy substitution:
Bayh (202) 224-5623
Carper (202) 224-2441
Inouye (202) 224-3934
Johnson (202) 224-5842
Landrieu (202)224-5824
McCaskill (202) 224-6154
Mikulski (202) 224-4654
Nelson (FL) (202) 224-5274
Nelson (NE) (202) 224-6551
Pryor (202) 224-2353
Salazar (202) 224-5852
Specter (202) 224-4254 (What the hell–he had an amendment ignored today, too)
And to convince those Senators who want to be President that this is a vote they need to be present for. (This assumes Rockefeller won’t flip, since he’s co-sponsoring the bill with Bond.) It’s probably also a good idea to touch base with Senators DiFi (202-224-3841) and Whitehouse (202-224-2921) to make sure they remain on the side of the good.
Several years ago, when they were on the wrong side of a close Senate, Republicans insisted on the sanctity of an "upperdown vote." But now, they want to refuse that right to any legislative action save the one Bush supports.
We can win this one. And boy, do we need to.
I’ll be busy working on Inouye…
ew, is there a link to post explaining parlimentary procedures.
I admit I’m lost.
Seemed Reid was not supportive earlier today. Now, is he fighting for the rule of law? Could you intepret the maneuvers?
What happened is that after they won the vote to have the SSCI, rather than the SJC, be the base bill, they refused every unanimous consent vote to vote on amendments. The only amendment they’ll vote on is a slight tweak Rockefeller and Bond want to their bill. But they refuse to consider a vote on any other amendment, including things like minimization, which (when HJC had a hearing on this) even Republicans say they support.
What they’re doing is trying to prevent some of the other thigns (including minimization procedures) that Bush would veto the bill for. They need this precise bill, though, bc McConnell has already agreed in principle that we should have effective minimization and we shouldn’t be able to spy on Americans overseas. So they’re basically preventing the Senate from voting on any other bill except this precise bill.
It is possible that we’ll win this–I think there are enough people (like DiFI) who won’t vote for what we’ve currently got, who want what htey believe to be minor tweaks (which, nonetheless, would be bill-killers for Bush).
We just need to get at least three more votes for Monday (plus hold everyone else together), and Bush won’t get the bill he wants.
Thanks. Since Reid seemed so unsupportive of the SJC bill earlier today, I could not figure out whether he was trying to slow down the Republicans now. When and where would Dodd have been able to perform his fillibuster?
Did he not have a chance with the 60 votes earlier today?
Reid is trying to make teh Republicans filibuster, not Dodd.
If the Republicans succeed on their cloture vote on Monday, then Dodd can do a “real” filibuster. But the way Reid has arranged it, Reid will be recommending to the caucus that they vote no on cloture, effectively giving Dodd the support of at least 30 other Ds, whereas before he had 15.
Will work on Landrieu. I’ve got close friends who know her brother pretty well. Will try it, but she’s stubborn & can be …the phrase I’m thinking of here might negate what we want to achieve…
What is Landrieu’s gig? She loses her home to Hurricaine Katrina (not to mention hundred if not thousands of constituents in Louisiana), she correctly blames the Bush administration for incompetence in protecting them from natural disasters, but then she continues to defy reason and votes in step with the Republicans.
Who the devil knows. Many speculations on that, none provable.
I use to live & work in LA, & her Senate record really chaps my ass.
I’m going to assume it is a mistake to consider her a Democrat.
Afterall, do we have any Republicans consistently voting with the Democrats?
Wouldn’t it be great if, for a change, there were a RINO on the inside leaking information to the progressive community of republican machinations and voting for progressive ideas?
As a native Louisianian, I can say that politics makes for strange bedfellows. The Landrieu family has successfully walked a line for years in New Orleans between whites, blacks, liberals and conservatives. Her father was “Moon” Landrieu, former mayor of New Orleans who ran for governor as I recall (but lost). Her brother, Mitch, is Lieutenant Governor of Louisiana.
That said, as you noted, much of New Orleans was wiped out by Katrina — and that was also her political base. People tend to think of Louisiana as New Orleans and vice versa, but it ain’t so… Natives tend to think Louisiana and New Orleans.
Regardless, Mary Landrieu has lost much of her base and is now having to court a much more conservative voting block. North Louisiana is part of the Bible Belt that has always tended to look somewhat askance at New Orleans or anyone from there. So, her hold on her Senate seat is probably somewhat tenuous at the moment and she does not want the Republican Party to enter a candidate to run against her, I think, this year.
She is a tough cookie, and it would be a knock down drag out fight, so she is probably trying to go along and get along…
We must protect our country, and a part of that protection comes from watching very carefully and actively those that would hurt us no matter where they are or who they are.
We need good active surveillance!
Jodi: Go back to Ruby Ridge.
Posted this over at FDL. It’s worth the read…
Link to this sight and click mid screen on January 9,2006 A Response To The Justice Department From Law Professors And Former Government Officials
http://www.fas.org/irp/agency/doj/fisa/
Wish I could do a nicer job for the link.
It’s worth the read for anyone. It lays out the 4th Amend. issues and addresses the issues of Unitary Executive (inherent Presidential Authority)language and “balance of Powers” language.
Enjoy! It will help you all write those letters, letters to the editors and faxes to congresscritters!!!
Law Professors respond to DoJ – pdf Does that work?
response maybe if you type it correctly?
Thank you! Honestly, I cannot get anything to link anymore on the new EW site! So, thank you!
I have (politely) requested my Senator Obama to get back to doing his damned day job. Getting fried over so many years of his running for president instead of representing me. Since I live in Bush Dog Lipinski’s district that means my representation in Congress consists of a lone senator.
Bill Clinton has been following Obama around SC, city by city, campaigning for Hillary. Seems like Bill is in charge of Op Research.
Jeez, at least you have one. I have John McCain, John Kyl and John Shadegg. I would be better off with three johns from Heidi Fleiss or the DC Madam.
…better off with three johns from Heidi Fleiss or the DC Madam.
Yeah, I guess I should count my blessings, especially since the one I have left is Dick Durbin.
Ok, so until your comment I had never heard of Shadegg — then I pop over to C&L and lo and behold, Shadegg appears to have found himself some hot water — did you know about this?
Oh yeah. Speaking of hot water, If you liked that link, here is a much better link to Howie Klein about Shadegg that Marcy sent me because, yes, I live where the bad water was an issue. Had to feed bottled water to the freaking dog.
This is why I so want to give McCaskill the benefit of the doubt. Of course Lacy Clay represents me, but it is probably not his intent. He doesn’t need my vote.
So what we want to request of these Senators is up or down votes on amendments to the SSCI bill (now that Reid and the Republicans have tabled the SJC bill)?
I watched the debate today on CSPAN2 but I wasn’t taking notes about the problems with the SSCI bill. Does anyone have a good summary so we can be specific about problems with the SSCI bill or a link to a good summary?
NO! We want cloture to fail. Then we can let the miserable SSCI bill die a well deserved death and start over. Ask the Senators to vote AGAINST cloture.
thx.
from 4jkb4ia over at FDL:
That’s as succinct a summary as I saw today. Reid seemed generally pissed at the Rethug objections (well, in his milquetoast sort of way — I really should give the man some lessons, I do pissed really really well ; )
Oops, that should have been “genuinely” rather than “generally” — that’s what I get for not previewing ; )
It was 12 Dems, so we need to pull 2-3 of them.
But otherwise, yeah.
Oops — thanks for the correction, that’s what I get for a quick cut and paste ; )
I am useful twice in a week!
Nice — Edwards just sent an appeal out to his list asking us to call our senators on FISA, with our senators’ names and phone numbers included for handy reference.
Thanks for the clarifications, ew et al.
So if the Senate Republicans’ cloture vote loses on Monday, does that automatically table the unwanted (at least for us progressives) House of Representatives bill? or does it bring the Senate back to debating the House bill until a motion to table?
If cloture vote succeeds, then Dodd gets to filibuster. Does he get to offer an amendment at some point to the currently unacceptable House bill, too?
If cloture vote fails (we want that), then the ball is in Harry’s court. He might invoke clotureon the House bill. That one would probably fail too (bc the Republicans wouldn’t vote for it). Reid could keep offering amendments, with the Republicans refusing a 51 person vote.
I don’t know. What’s really going on is a fight over who is held responsible for obstructing a good vote. If the cloture on SSCI fails, and Reid invokes cloture on teh House bill, then maybe we can blame the Republicans for making us unsafe.
What’s really going on is a fight over who is held responsible for obstructing a good vote.
Indeed.
Which is why I hope the video of Inhofe’s strange mid-FISA lecture on the topic of Nuclear Materials is widely YouTubed, and mercilessly mocked.
Let the Republicans defend THAT act of legislative looniness!
(I’ll definitely need extra popcorn.)
Oh, I missed that part–that the SSCI bill is still in play. I thought Harry somehow had substituted the House bill for the SSCI bill in the last few minutes. I didn’t know more than one bill could be tossed in the air at once.
Vote no for cloture on the SSCI bill.
Then play ball with the House bill until 2/2/08 maybe…
Original
CokeFISA comes back.I need to read about parliamentary procedures.
EPU’ed from the Michigan thread:
Sorry to ask a trivial question, but if EW will be on the scene I need tor rearrange my Friday to be ready and watching.
So EP can you define Down? Geographically or morally into the cesspool of this prosecution? I’ll take either if it mean you will be our eye and ears.
reply.
Any chance of prosecutorial misconduct in the future. A la North Carolina? And any implications for the Alabama governors’ case? And for those of us catching up, where is Fieger, physically I mean.
Answered it there–it’s a week from tomorrow, in MI.
Nice Political Akido move on Harry Reid’s part.
But FWIW, I agree the Dems can win this, but if Harry Reid hadn’t pulled this bit of Political Aikido they’d have been hammered as ‘terrorist loving surrender monkeys’.
It looks like Harry’s simply given them what they said they wanted – before they realized that it’s going to make them look like a pack of WH unreasonable, sanctimonious WH jackals. (See: Inhofe, James — Let’s Discuss Nuclear Materials In the Middle of FISA Hearings So That We Can Blame The Dems For Failing To Pass FISA On Time.)
With all due respect, EW, I don’t believe this is simply a ‘lefty’ issue. Government spying has really hit ‘ a HOT button’ with some deeply conservative (Western libertarian) folks that I’m in contact with — one of them said something along the lines of, “I didn’t serve in ‘Nam so that my own damn government could read my email and tap my phone!” When I teased him about Cheney’s 5 deferrments and Bush’s Nat’l Guard duties, he got a little hot under the collar and his response would definitely NOT make it through your spam filter ;-))
BTW: he voted for Bush and Cheney in both 2000 and 2004.
Relish the irony.
I do admire Harry when he pulls of a bit parliamentary jujitsu ;-))
I understand why we want Reid to beat McConnell and Rockefeller on this one. I just want to point out that it was Reid who brought forward the Senate Intelligence bill, instead of the Senate Judiciary bill (which doesn’t provide for telecom immunity), or even the House Bill. If he moves either of the latter, McConnell has to filibuster the bills, and even if the Bush Dogs capitulate, we make them the ones who would rather protect the telecoms, and the terrorists, instead of protecting the American People.
Listening to Hillery at Furman,what a crock bull, we need someone will run the government and stand up for the rights of Americans( not actual but close quote) LOL she can’t even filibuster or vote and this is who I am to vote for?
Can we get a LOLMcConnell: “DO NOT WANT”?
Because that was his petulant performance objecting to amendments today.
Why is it desirable to to stop listening to AQ and their friends no matter where they are? If something happens and it can be blamed on the Democrats we will suffer greatly at the polls.
Shouldn’t we attack the Republicans on their social stands, and on the economy and the war, and at the same time stand strong on general defense and vigilance?
I don’t understand this paranoia about George Bush listening on your phone lines. Everyone knows that won’t happen.
fgator,
It is happening now. They’re monitoring everything that goes through the big telcos’ big pipes. At the moment, that’s legal.
If they weren’t doing it, they wouldn’t have needed to keep it secret, and they wouldn’t have a problem obtaining warrants.
This has nothing to do with listening to AQ or potential terrorists. In fact, they had these taps in operation before 9/11, so one can’t even argue that these mechanisms work. Nor has there been any other plot executed or plausibly planned.
There have been, since 1990, two operations that succeeded, both directed at the WTC. There’s been one credible threat disrupted–the guy trying to smuggle explosives in from Canada for Y2K day.
9/11 happened despite this monitoring regime being in place. The Y2K thing was stopped by a well-trained customs agent.
It’s past time to stop being scared. We are living in the safest time period in American history, with no threats, at all, to our security. Sitting in quaking fear of attacks by stateless, powerless individuals that take place once a decade is wacky. It’s doing exactly what they want. Do you realize the ROI of the 9/11 attack? They spent all the resources they could on that –about $100,000. And look what they got back. A trillion dollars spent making America a symbol of hate for many Muslims around the world, an image of the US as a heartless killer of innocent civilians in the pursuit of control of oil. Every step of the way Bush has done exactly what bin laden wanted.
I just called my Sen. Nelson (FL) and asked him to flip back to the good guys.
I don’t know why I read this blog when I can’t count. DC Pol Sci said 17 and I ran with it.
Eh, I dunno. I have some pretty progressive friends in Missouri, that actually worked their ass off for McCaskill, and they have been disillusioned and pissed as hell for a while now at her, this is just icing on the cake. They wanted in the worst way to give her the benefit of the doubt, but have had it with her. These people know her and can get her on the phone, so I think they have a decent bead.