A Response to Dean: The Failure, So Far, Has Been Congress’

John Dean thinks Patrick Fitzgerald may have gone soft on the White House.

If McClellan’s testimony suggests that Special Counsel Patrick Fitzgerald, for any reason, gave Karl Rove and Dick Cheney a pass when, in fact, there was a conspiracy – which is still ongoing – to obstruct justice, then these hearings could trigger the reopening of the case. But this is a pretty large “If.”

[snip]

As experienced a prosecutor as Fitzgerald is, he was playing in a very different league when investigating the Bush White House. These folks make Nixon’s White House look like Little Leaguers – and based on what is known about the Plame investigation, I have long suspected that Fitzgerald was playing out of his league. (See, for example, here and here.)

I would counter Dean and suggest it was not Fitzgerald, but Congress, which dropped the ball.

Dean suggests that we don’t know what Fitzgerald found.

Yet since no one knows what Fitzgerald learned, except those who cannot speak of what they know, it is not possible to determine whether he might have been outfoxed by the White House.

Um, not quite. While it is true we don’t know the contents of Rove’s grand jury appearances nor those of many other key players, we do know quite a bit beyond the details surrounding Libby’s narrow perjury charge. With the caveat that some of the following can only be supported with circumstantial evidence, here’s what we do know:

  • Dick Cheney declassified Valerie Wilson’s identity (either with Bush’s implicit or explicit approval) and told Libby to leak it to Judy Miller. He may have instructed Libby to leak details about her name and status to Novak during his July 9 conversation as well. But since he declassified Valerie’s identity, the legal status of that leak is–at best–unclear. After that leak, those in the White House who knew about it operated as if it was a legal leak of non-classified information.
  • The stories of Rove, Armitage, Novak, and Libby have significant discrepancies, meaning (in spite of what the Administration’s backers claim) we don’t yet have an adequate explanation for the leak to Novak. Probably, some of Rove’s testimony was perjurious, but there is no credible witness to that fact (since Armitage was himself either lying or a terrible witness), so it would be difficult to charge.
  • Libby and Cheney coordinated their story in fall 2003 at Cheney’s place in Jackson Hole. Libby told Cheney he was going to claim he had learned Valerie’s identity "as if it were new" on July 10, thereby shielding Libby’s conversations with Ari Fleischer, David Addington, Judy Miller, and Robert Novak from scrutiny. If that lie had been successful (assisted by two friendly "journalists") the White House would have been hiding activities they claim are legal, albeit politically catastrophic. While at Jackson Hole, Libby and Cheney also collaborated to make sure Scottie publicly exonerated Libby–public exoneration that had no effect on the prosecution (in that the FBI and prosecutors always considered Libby a chief suspect, regardless of what Scottie said); further, the exoneration was, in some key ways, consistent with White House claims that the leak was legal.
  • There are at least three piece of evidence that point to Bush’s involvement in the leak: his comment to Libby on June 9 that he was concerned about the Niger allegations, his authorization of the leak to Judy Miller, and Cheney’s aborted claim that Bush asked Libby to stick his neck in a meat-grinder.
  • Large amounts of OVP email have disappeared, under extremely dubious technical circumstances, for the days when Cheney and Libby were concocting their cover story.

Scottie’s book (and, therefore, presumably, his testimony) brought out two additional key details. First, McClellan revealed that Cheney talked to Bush directly to make sure he exonerated Libby and McClellan assigned a date to that call–October 4. And second, McClellan reported that Rove and Libby had a suspicious meeting in July 2005 to which McClellan was not a direct witness. Beyond that, much of McClellan’s book makes it clear he is either ignorant or deliberately evasive about any other pertinent details. Clearly, some of the details McClellan can be brought to admit (such as when the White House became aware there’d be an investigation). But there’s not much more than what is already out there.

Now, I know many here will disagree with me. But to charge the White House with obstruction, you need several things:

  • A credible witness against Rove–there appears to be no witness who couldn’t himself be accused of lying.
  • A credible witness against Libby and Cheney. I suspect Jenny Mayfield could tell how she herself obstructed the investigation (by not turning over documents relating to the Niger claim, for example, and possibly by mis-dating one of Libby’s notes, and possibly stamping every piece of evidence that implicated Bush or Cheney with "Treated as TS/SCI"). On this point, I have no idea how much evidence against Mayfield there is. Just as importantly, though, the only witnesses to the key cover-up between Libby and Cheney are Bush, Cheney, and Libby–the "secret mission" that Bill Jeffress described.
  • A credible witness against Bush. Again, perhaps there’s another witness–perhaps Condi Rice? But the chief witness to Bush’s involvement was convicted of perjury in March 2007.
  • Proof that the disappearing emails were deliberate, and proof that some emails were deliberately withheld. This one is, I think, in progress, though I certainly wonder whether Fitzgerald should have pressed harder on this issue.

So perhaps, if there was evidence, Fitzgerald should have indicted Jenny Mayfield to see if that loosened some lips. Perhaps he should have more aggressively pursued the disappearing emails. Perhaps there was a way to make Condi Rice or Stephen Hadley testify more fully to Bush’s involvement.

But thus far, the biggest failure to prosecute the chief obstruction came because there was no witness to it who would speak. Perhaps Libby would have, had he seen prison time. There were certainly stories that his wife threatened to go with his story of he was actually imprisoned.

But that gets to the fundamental obstruction: the commutation. By commuting Libby’s sentence, Bush virtually guaranteed the most likely witness to the obstruction would never talk. Why should he? He doesn’t need tha law license anyway.

Which brings us to the commutation hearing. All the information I’ve recited here–save details about the inconsistencies between the stories of the Novak leak and a few details about Cheney’s research at CIA in early June I didn’t include above–were all publicly available at the time of HJC’s hearing on commutation. There was at that time abundant evidence that the President and Vice President and a top aide had conspired to obstruct an investigation. And, since the legal status of this leak is–as I said–unclear, Congress was the necessary place to investigate further. With Cheney’s claim to have declassified what he told Libby to leak, the leak of Plame’s identity necessarily becomes a political problem, not a legal one.

And none of this evidence–none of it–was entered into the record during the commutation hearing.

I’ll go further. As Kagro X has repeated so often he’s now blue in his face, our Founders made it crystal clear what needs to be done in such a case–where the President’s abuse of his own legal authority would otherwise be a crime.

The 1974 post-Watergate report of the House Judiciary Committee sez:

In the [Virginia constitutional ratifying] convention George Mason argued that the President might use his pardoning power to "pardon crimes which were advised by himself" or, before indictment or conviction, "to stop inquiry and prevent detection." James Madison responded:

[I]f the President be connected, in any suspicious manner, with any person, and there be grounds to believe he will shelter him, the House of Representatives can impeach him; they can remove him if found guilty…63

And footnote 63?:

3 Elliot 497-98. Madison went on to [say] contrary to his position in the Philadelphia convention, that the President could be suspended when suspected, and his powers would devolve on the Vice President, who could likewise be suspended until impeached and convicted, if he were also suspected. Id. 49

There is little better description for what appears to have gone on than the President–who appears to have advised Libby about responding to Joe Wilson on June 9, 2003 and appears to have authorized what would have otherwise been a crime sometime before July 8, 2003–using his pardon power to "stop inquiry and prevent detection."

This is a political issue. It has been for 15 months. In spite of that, Congress had done next to nothing to take the abundance of evidence that–sorry, Mr. Dean–we do know, and pursue the appropriate political remedy.

That said, like Dean I think Scottie’s testimony may be an opportunity for Congress to do what they failed to do last year–to pursue the clear evidence, uncover further evidence, and implement the appropriate political solution. Here’s what–if I had my way–HJC would accomplish next week as a step towards taking the proper political action:

  • Establish the clear legal necessity for Mukasey to release the 302s and Bush and Cheney transcripts to Waxman and–while he’s at it–to HJC. We know those transcripts have further evidence pertaining to Bush and Cheney’s cover-up. To not turn them over would amount to further cover-up. That case needs to be made strongly.
  • Lay out the necessity to call further Bush Administration officials. Since Andy Card is the one other person involved in the fall 2003 cover-up, he should be called (and I note that he was ousted at the same time as McClellan and he has not attacked McClellan, so I rather suspect he may be willing to testify). And while you’re calling former White House officials, Ari Fleischer has already received immunity for his actions in this leak (though he may well have lied about his leak to Pincus), why not call him, too? When Fitzgerald was accused of having gotten a proffer from Ari, Fitzgerald made it clear that he understood Ari to have information that implicated someone else. (My guess is Rove or Bush.) So bring Fleischer in, since he’s already immunized to tell us about that someone else.
  • Enter the abundant circumstantial evidence that Cheney ordered the leak of Plame’s identity into the Congressional Record. In doing so, force the Republicans and the Bush Administration to decide, once and for all, who ordered the leak, who authorized it, and whether they’re really claiming they did so legally.
  • Pit Bush and Cheney against each other. One way or another, Cheney’s and Bush’s interests on this issue do not coincide. It would take very little to force Bush to throw Cheney over the side in an attempt to preserve his own reputation. And that’s a fight I’d like to see–not least, because it would uncover many new details about what happened.

So John Dean, I would invite you to go beyond claiming we don’t know what Fitzgerald learned and actually look at what we do know. There is enough in the public domain already to take this much further towards the political conclusion required. Whatever Fitzgerald’s failings in the investigation, it’s awfully stupid to attack him while ignoring the abundance of evidence that he dropped in Congress’ lap–which has just rotted there.

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155 replies
  1. nolo says:

    EW — this is flawless.

    “. . .Large amounts of OVP email have disappeared, under extremely dubious technical circumstances, for the days when Cheney and Libby were concocting their cover story. . .”

    perfect. as is this:

    “. . .Enter the abundant circumstantial evidence that Cheney ordered the leak of Plame’s identity into the Congressional Record. In doing so, force the Republicans and the Bush Administration to decide, once and for all, who ordered the leak, who authorized it, and whether they’re really claiming they did so legally. . .”

    this goes up, now, on indctdickcheney.

    thank you for answering john dean so responsibly, and completely.

    also, thanks for the perspective on timmeh — it resonated with me.

    p e a c e

  2. readerOfTeaLeaves says:

    EW, I don’t see in your post the info that GWBush sat on Air Force 1 in April 2006 and told McClellan, “Yeah, I did,” when the issue of whether [Bush] had declassified Plame’s identity was raised. That’s absolutely damning.

    And as you pointed out in the past week or so, we now know that Harriet Miers came to talk to McClellan on a weekday, on a matter that she clearly didn’t want anyone else to know about, and no public record. So Harriet ought to join Andy Card in being a bit more forthcoming before Waxman’s committee.

    But appreciate your clarity that this is a **political** issue, no longer a legal one.
    We’ve had the evidence for some time.
    We haven’t had the political leadership.

  3. readerOfTeaLeaves says:

    McClellan, p. 294:

    “He asserted you authorized the leak of part of the NIE,” I added.
    “Yeah, I did,” Bush simply replied. The look on his face said he didn’t want to discuss the matter any further. Nor did I expect him to, since he had already been advised by his personal attorney Jim Sharp**, not to discuss any details related to the Libby trial.
    …. I was shocked to hear the President casually acknowledging its accuracy, as if discussing something no more important than a baseball score or the latest tidbit of inside-the-Beltway gossip….

    p.295…
    … No one else was told about the secret declassification — not Chief of Staff Andy Card, not National Security Advisor Condi Rice. When Rice was publicly rejecting the notion of selective declassification on July 11, 2003, Scooter Libby had already leaked it to Judith Miller on July 8 — at the vice president’s direction with authority from the president.”

    Doesn’t that qualify Rice as a witness?

    This needs to stop being about politics and get back to being about evidence.
    There’s plenty of it.

    ** a criminal defense atty, IIRC

  4. allan says:

    By commuting Libby’s sentence, Bush virtually guaranteed the most likely witness to the obstruction would never talk. Why should he? He doesn’t need tha[t] law license anyway.

    Please remind me why the Hudson Institute has tax-exempt status.

  5. earlofhuntingdon says:

    I guess John Dean should have picked on somebody else; EW is certainly not “in over her head”.

    On an earlier thread, I said that I thought Dean thought well of Fitz, but that he, Dean, was (in my words) awestruck by the audacity and the the sociopathic quality of the current administration’s top leadership. Coming from the former White House counsel for Richard Nixon, that’s a considerable statement.

    I agree with other comments that Dean overstates Rove’s skill and the odds against which Fitz was working. It’s not Fitz who’s “in over his head”, a comment that unnecessarily belittles Fitzgerald and the narrow scope of his permitted inquiry. The combined leadership of the White House and Department of Justice opposed his efforts, led by the Attorney General and the Vice President, the de facto President to whom Bush seems unable to say “No”, or even, “Yes, but, I’d rather do it this way, Uncle Dick”. Indeed, at least one senior administration official, Libby, illegally obstructed his investigation.

    The combined leadership of Congress appears to have sat on its hands, with the Dems ready to use anything Fitzgerald came up with, and the GOP ready to politically skewer him for the slightest misstep or even none at all. Little changed after the Democrat’s victory in ‘06. Democrats in Congress continue to scurry like early mammals in and around the GOP dinosaurs’ feet.

    Fitzgerald is revered on this blog, for good reason. In the words of Paladin, he may, “Have Gun, Will Travel”, but he isn’t a substitute for the Seventh Cavalry or a responsible Congress or Chief Executive.

    • bobschacht says:

      “Fitzgerald is revered on this blog, for good reason. In the words of Paladin, he may, “Have Gun, Will Travel”, but he isn’t a substitute for the Seventh Cavalry or a responsible Congress or Chief Executive.”

      And he was also constrained because the bullets for his gun had to be requisitioned from Company Stores.

      Bob in HI

  6. WilliamOckham says:

    Excellent work. If the Congress had any guts they would have impeached Bush and Cheney over the ridiculous Executive Privilege claims.

  7. Bushie says:

    The problem still stands with Democratic Congressional leadership including Conyers. For whatever reason, fear, blackmail (subset of fear), or political gamesmanship, Pelosi and Conyers put themselves and their party before their Constitutional duty. Hell, as much as I Henry Waxman, what has come of his numerous hearings except occasional finding and reports. Will the House let alone the DoJ act on anything found in committee? No.

  8. earlofhuntingdon says:

    Ordinarily, nearly all USA’s are replaced in the first several months after a change in administrations. There are scores of excellent Democratic lawyers who should be given top slots among Obama’s USA’s and at Main Justice. But one wonders if it wouldn’t be prudent to utilize Fitzgerald’s experience and resources by finding him a slot at Main Justice. Number two or three at the Criminal Division, for example.

    Rebuilding the department on the professional level, on a non-partisan basis, is essential. Fitzgerald’s leadership and experience in prosecuting this administration could well come in handy.

  9. Rayne says:

    It may be time to target lower hanging fruit, though; would we be having this dialog if the DOJ actually did its job? Would we be parrying with John Dean over Fitz’ performance if Mukasey had already sought an independent counsel, immune from the political pressures of the White House and the DOJ itself?

    I think we start with impeaching Mukasey, depending on the outcome of Scott McClellan’s testimony.

  10. earlofhuntingdon says:

    Bush may have delegated actual authority to Cheney to de-classify and leak Plame’s identity (he authorizes him to do virtually anything he wants). He at least ratified it after the fact, either explicitly in writing or through his actions.

    But even if, arguably, the disclosure of her identity by Libby, Rove, et al., was “legal”, it created the potential for considerable harm to United States’ national security. Nothing disclosed suggests Tenet, or Plame or her chain of command, were made aware of Cheney’s intent to leak her identity, and, in consequence, the character of her cover businesses and activities.

    The “damage control report” that ought to have been generated subsequent to that leak was either never generated or not acknowledged, much less disclosed. Potentially, that leak endangered dozens of lives and an entire mode of covert operations. Intentionally. Purposefully. Is that covered by some executive version of the business judgment rule? Can Bush simply write off that damage as if, “shit happens”, without liability? Certainly, something to pursue in addition to the leak itself, not just by a prosecutor, but by Congress. Assuming our Rip van CongressCritters ever wake up.

    • Neil says:

      Congress should ask for the CIA Damage Report (or a summarized and declassified version that identifies the number of assets compromised and destroyed.) Doesn’t Congress have every right to access this information in their oversight role? This info fills in the picture, it characterizes the consequences of this series of political acts, for which Executive Branch senior officials have taken credit.

      EW has given Congress the road map. My two favorite milestones are these:

      Enter the abundant circumstantial evidence that Cheney ordered the leak of Plame’s identity into the Congressional Record. In doing so, force the Republicans and the Bush Administration to decide, once and for all, who ordered the leak, who authorized it, and whether they’re really claiming they did so legally.

      Pit Bush and Cheney against each other. One way or another, Cheney’s and Bush’s interests on this issue do not coincide. It would take very little to force Bush to throw Cheney over the side in an attempt to preserve his own reputation. And that’s a fight I’d like to see–not least, because it would uncover many new details about what happened.

  11. earlofhuntingdon says:

    I think there’s too much baggage with the notion of “impeachment”. It needs to be rehabilitated. One way to do that is to launch “investigations”, and properly pursue them in order to document the administration’s conduct, leaving until later what actions to take in response.

    The political nightmare investigations create, however, is that the GOP will abuse the response to whatever facts are discovered. A decision not to prosecute won’t be characterized as an appropriate exercise of prosecutorial discretion. It will be propagandized as either a ratification or as Democratic administration’s malfeasance.

    The reality is that those consequences will plague any Democratic action on any topic for the foreseeable future. Unless and until the GOP remakes itself into a less obstructionist, less radical party, a process that could take decades. Democratic administrations cannot use that to do nothing; it will only feed the GOP beast. They just need to gird their loins and deal with it.

    • JThomason says:

      The kind of GOP abuse you speak of is already underway with respect to Boumediene where McCain calls it one of the worst opinions ever. The public will not follow the opinion to an extent which puts Boumediene in historical context and the context of checking tyranny. The meme will just be out there that it is “bad.”

      Bush operated for six years under the assumption that there would be no accountability to Congress and no meaningful oversight and the K-Street go- betweens could just slot legislation like the Patriot Act and clauses immunizing big business for rubber-stamp approval. Who in Congress would even bother to read it.

      Besides the factual material EW lists above we also have evidence of systematic efforts to avoid oversight in the contempt shown in managing around the Presidential Records Act and now Congressional findings of patent mendacity in the lead up to war. The facts just keeping mounting showing this contempt for Congress and the public including the intentional obstruction of oversight which is rife in the public record.

      There is always the suspicion as well that Democratic politicians anticipating political control crave the advantages of political collusion between the Congress and the President if they find themselves in a situation to exploit such a situation in 2009.

      We are walking right up to the failing of Gore’s run: the failure to highlight principled controversy. The Supreme Court has now gone on record taking a principled stand against tyranny. Maybe this will awaken some in Congress to the fact that they are not in this alone and that more is at stake than the mere spoils of an endless campaign.

    • bobschacht says:

      “I think there’s too much baggage with the notion of “impeachment”. It needs to be rehabilitated.”

      This is the major issue of the year, and the next few years. I don’t necessarily think that the Republicans were consciously *planning* to destroy the impeachment planks of the Constitution by so badly botching the impeachment of Clinton, but in effect they have done so. Many Democrats have bought into the idea that the public would see the impeachment of Bush as the same kind of partisan dogfight as the impeachment of Clinton, and would disparage congress equally for both. I think that assessment was badly mistaken.

      And with the fact that all those male U.S. Congressmen from Conyers on down meekly lied down in obedience to Pelosi’s edict about impeachment, is it any wonder that the public thinks of Democrats as weak and spineless? That they dropped the(ir) ball(s) seems to be connected to not having any cojones now.

      Bob in HI

        • bmaz says:

          No. It matters not what the gender of the most totally derelict Speaker of the House imaginable is. It is, however, especially tragic that the first woman in history to ascend to that position sees fit to so humiliate and degrade her position, the Congress, the country and the Constitution. And she acts imperial and proud of it in the process. History will urinate on her term for that.

          • bmaz says:

            Let me supplement my last comment to explain my rationale for it just a bit. It would be wrong and condemnable for her to just not permit any substantive accountability and enforcement of Congressional power and prerogative; but for her to blithely affirmatively declare that there is nothing, nothing, that would constitute a viable basis for the same is beyond belief, and beyond the pale. That is what earns my harshest wrath, and I believe it is more than justified.

          • readerOfTeaLeaves says:

            My sole reason for defending Pelosi is on the suspicion that she knows she’s dealing with two very unstable, unreasonable men in Bush and Cheney. Her ‘you don’t know the half of it’, still strikes me as true.

            But the Dems had better get their game on.
            God only knows what Bush and Cheney will pull with time running out for them.
            Meanwhile, unusual weather patterns are starting to drive home the bad news that climate change poses serious risks for the food supply. Who knew?!

            • bmaz says:

              Well, I understand, but aren’t we entitled to know the half of it, and hold them to account for it? Isn’t that what our Constitution and ethos is supposed to be about? Isn’t the effort required to be made as opposed to wilting in the face of the malevolent purveyors of “the half of it”?

              • readerOfTeaLeaves says:

                Absolutely.
                The only possible exception would be if both men are as nuts as they appear to be.
                In that case, Nancy needs to tippy-toe.

                Otherwise, no excuses.

              • readerOfTeaLeaves says:

                OT, but Laura Bush is a complete cipher for me.
                Can’t fathom how anyone puts up with such a man; there’s not enough $$ in the galaxy IMHO.

                • FrankProbst says:

                  OT, but Laura Bush is a complete cipher for me.
                  Can’t fathom how anyone puts up with such a man; there’s not enough $$ in the galaxy IMHO.

                  Are you serious? She made one of the most classic “relationship mistakes” of all time–she thought she could change him. I suspect she stuck with him because he quit drinking, and she saw that as “change”, but in reality he just went from being an alcoholic asshole to an allegedly-abstinent asshole. That’s not really much of a change.

            • sojourner says:

              Amen! “she knows she’s dealing with two very unstable, unreasonable men in Bush and Cheney.” For a long time, I thought that maybe it was because there was some blackmail going on. In more recent months, though, the more lunacy that has come to light, the more I have felt that maybe she is just very afraid of what these two idiots might do if they were cornered and had some time to further their damage.

              ROTL @ 46, I have two theories… Either she has the best damn poker face of anyone I have ever seen, or there are no lights on behind that face and she has an awful substance abuse problem.

              BMAZ @ 48: You sound like me…

              • readerOfTeaLeaves says:

                though, the more lunacy that has come to light, the more I have felt that maybe she is just very afraid of what these two idiots might do if they were cornered and had some time to further their damage.

                Looks like we’re thinking along the same lines.
                Not that either Bush or Cheney would give a damn.

          • Leen says:

            I know you mentioned that you had seen Jonathon Turley on Countdown also. He ripped Pelosi. Claimed that the Democrats in control had almost been “oolluding and complicit” with the Bush administration.

            Pelosi keeps talking about how we need to move “forward”, that impeachment is “off the table”, that impeachment would be “a waste of time”. Just how the hell does she think this nation can move forward when we are stepping over the bodies of dead American soldiers and over a million Iraqi people? All who have died unnecessarily. How does she expect a nation to move forward when they can not get to their jobs because the oil companies that Cheney did closed door business with in the early years of the Bush administration are raking the American public over the coals? How can we move forward without our congress holding these criminals ACCOUNTABLE?

            Does Pelosi want the walking dead to move forward or does she as well as the rest of congress want to breathe new life into this country?

            Would the Democrats really stand the chance of losing this fall if they actually stood up and demanded ACCOUNTABILITY? The American public’s faith in our congress is hanging on by threads. Are they going to cut that thread?

            ##33 By the way HAPPY FATHER DAY TO THOSE FATHER’S OUT THERE! Do something special for yourselves!

            • bmaz says:

              What Turley said, and what you further elaborated on, is exactly what I have been saying for a very long time now. About the only one I am aware of that has been at it longer is, as EW pointed out, KagroX, and that may only be due to the fact that he had a forum and voice for his thoughts when, back then, I was mostly muttering to myself as opposed to commenting and posting on blogs.

              And ditto, Happy Father’s Day everybody. We all either are one, or had one. Think kindly of them.

  12. bmaz says:

    Not sure if I am putatively considered to be in the “I know many here will disagree” group or not. Because of all kinds of discussions over time I might be, but certainly as argued here I am most assuredly not. I do think that Fitz should have gone after the email angle more fully, as you indicated; but, honestly, he may have and we don’t know it. From what I have seen, he probably could have done some more extensive subpoena/preservation letter type of discovery etc. on all that. But, again, I was not in his shoes and I trust him.

    As to the obstruction case etc. that is the main focus here, I agree 100%. I should elaborate on the prosecuting Rove comment I made previously today. I would have dinged him just for false statements if nothing else. I know that sounds penny ante (and boy would the Repugs have screamed that), but he was so odious and so critical to so much damage being done, that I would have done it anyway. Just because. I fully understand why Fitz didn’t; but I think reasonable minds can differ on that one, and I do (possible issue with the assumption that my mind is reasonable).

  13. victoria2dc says:

    A credible witness against Bush. Again, perhaps there’s another witness–perhaps Condi Rice? But the chief witness to Bush’s involvement was convicted of perjury in March 2007.

    Proof that the disappearing emails were deliberate, and proof that some emails were deliberately withheld. This one is, I think, in progress, though I certainly wonder whether Fitzgerald should have pressed harder on this issue.

    Marcy…………….

    Who is the person convicted of perjury in March 2007? You mean Scooter?

    What if some of the missing e-mails are hidden in files from Chairman McCain’s days as chairman of the Indian Affairs Committee. He had them all moved to the National Archives and apparently “classified” for 50 years. Any way you know of to get around that 50 year cover-up? Dorgan is the chair of the committee now and says that they have to be released with approval of McCain.

    I’d like to get into those boxes and start reading.

  14. watercarrier4diogenes says:

    Marcy vs. John Dean, 15 rounds. Marcy steps into the ring as the odds-on favorite. Las Vegas won’t even quote odds. And the guy in her corner in the plaid skirt looks pretty imposing, too.

      • skdadl says:

        A proper kilt will be too heavy to be disturbed by much short of a mighty wind. The plaid is the thing you wrap around you and throw over your left shoulder (pinning it there with a Cairngorm). You hope that the wind will then blow that around dramatically as you march forward — scares the enemy, as it is meant to do, sort of like the sound of the pipes.

        I don’t think that people here deserve to be called reverential just for expressing our relief at watching at least a few people stick to the facts as we wade through this dreadfully over-excited time. That is EW’s genius, I think, and people gather here because her kind of work makes our brains feel better.

  15. skdadl says:

    PS: bmaz, that second para of mine above was not addressed to you or to anyone specifically. Sorry for writing in haste. Have a good night, everyone.

  16. Rayne says:

    You know what we’re all struggling with in this Wheelie clan and the larger progressive tribe?

    We are not avenged. It’s raw, primal, we want our pound of flesh and a bit more as interest for the delay.

    This is what the opposition has not reckoned with when it messes with justice and obstructs it; when we see justice working as it should, we feel we have our revenge on those who wrong us.

    Perhaps Dean’s comment was an indication of a larger and deeper urge which has been frustrated for more than eight long years.

    Admit it: our sense of honor has been greatly wronged by the sustained outrages against our social contract, and little more than public frogmarching and long, tortured hearings in front of our representatives will set it right.

    They really have no idea what they are messing with.

      • readerOfTeaLeaves says:

        Thank you so much for that link, Wm O. Link now bookmarked.

        Haven’t yet read that article by Diamond, but look forward to it and may follow up at some other time. I’ve spent a couple years among ‘tribal society’ and their idea of justice is retribution: you killed my brother, I have to avenge his death by killing you. It never, ever ends; it’s endless bloodletting.

        But unless we show the world that we can police our own criminals, who can trust us?
        No one.

        • Rayne says:

          You encapsulated part of that primal problem right here:

          But unless we show the world that we can police our own criminals, who can trust us?
          No one.

          Our own people, our tribes, our clans, they know we are not holding wrong-doers accountable, as do the clans and tribes of the rest of the earth.

          While WilliamOckham encourages a philosophical “third way”, there is no escaping a basic human need for justice. It’s so basic that, this recognition of fairness, that it’s one of eight ethics or values that transcends all human religions and cultures.

          We hope for openness and transparency in our justice, so that it satisfies this need, while stopping or avoiding the pendulum-like action-reaction that continues a cycle of crime and retribution. But what happens when there is no transparency, when we can’t see justice’s workings, when crime continues unabated?

          This is when society starts to really unravel. They are playing with dynamite, because this stuff is wired deeply in us as humans, inescapable. Even the coolest and calmest of heads will begin to pick at others — like Dean picking at Fitz — if their sense of fairness and justice is bruised for too long.

          • WilliamOckham says:

            Don’t confuse justice and revenge. I absolutely agree that justices must be served and that it’s better for the world if we (the U.S.) serve it. The ‘rule of law’ is the strongest deterrent to violence that our secular society has devised. That’s the only reason I’m not an anarchist. There is no such thing as redemptive violence. These criminals were enabled when the country gave in to the revenge urge after 9/11. How many Americans are willing to face the fact that that feel-good invasion resulted in far more innocent deaths in Afghanistan than we suffered on 9/11?

            The answer to violence is not more violence. The answer to lawlessness is not more lawlessness. The answer to terror is not more terror. We must resist violence with implacable non-violence. Lawlessness must be met with a continuing commitment to apply to everyone, no matter how powerful. The only way to defeat terror is to oppose it with love.

            • readerOfTeaLeaves says:

              Sounds like consensus among you, me, Rayne, and whoever else reads and agrees here.

              I agree with Rayne that humans are ‘wired’ to require justice and ‘fairness’ as deeply as we’re wired to require water. I think it’s that deep. I also agree that Congress and the WH are playing with dynamite — in the sense that those of us watching are losing hope and seeking some kind of organizations that might be effective. The social consequences of lawlessness are destabilizing and that harms everyone.

              I also agree with Wm O that ‘implacable non-violence’ is extremely important. (And as CHS once pointed out, only tough people actually follow the law, because it’s always easier and seemingly simpler to be expedient.) But without good models, what on earth are kids in high school and college watching this going to conclude?!

              I’m angry enough about the consequences for my own life/travel/finances. But when I think of all the teenagers watching Bush and Cheney get away with leaking a CIA agent’s identity and then being met by Heads of State it’s really a source of concern. The fact that these asshats are walking around is a subliminal, non-verbal message that the ends justify the means and as long as you are rich and powerful no one can touch you.

              The ONLY reason that I have a moment’s patience with Nancy Pelosi and Harry Reid is the (to me) quite real possibility mentioned in 56 above. Otherwise, EW’s point that Congress is trying to foist off their own political kabuki on Fitz needs to be spread far and wide, because the cynicism is beyond outrageous at this point.

              Boy, if I ever meet up with a few wives of commenters here, it could get mighty interesting ;-))

              • readerOfTeaLeaves says:

                Whoops!

                Made comment; went off to other things.
                But was thinking about the reactions to my bafflement regarding Laura Bush — how can she stand to put up with the man?

                Bmaz and sojourner responded in good humor, and I tossed in a small rejoinder @59 that if I ever met their wives, I’d love to hear them dish ;-))

                Well… off I went, when it hit me!
                There may well be commenters and lurkers here who are in same-sex relationships, and I certainly didn’t mean to be exclusionary to male/female marrieds in jesting about ‘couples.’ But I’m sure that’s how it must have come across.

                Jeez, I’m feeling like a bloody twit!
                This bothered me so much that I fired up the ol’ computer again to make this apology late on a Saturday night.

                I apologize. If you’re in a same-sex relationship, and if I ever get your partner in a room with bmaz and sojourner’s spouses, warn them that they’ll be expected to ‘dish’: fave books, fave movies, fave restaurants…

                I hope that my apology is received in the spirit in which it was posted.
                Kind Regards.

                • sojourner says:

                  I am finally getting on the computer for the first time today and catching up. My wife is rather non-political, and she does not fathom my concerns with each new revelation or activity by these goons.

                  I would love to know more about the people on these blogs. I often see your posts, along with BMAZ’s, WmOckham’s, Mary’s, and a bazillion others.

                  As for me, I am a meek, mild IT worker at a government contractor by day, but at night — well, I don tights and a cape and become endowed with super powers to right wrongs and avenge the slights against our Constitution. At least that sounds good…

          • phred says:

            Rayne, I really appreciate your comments on vengeance and justice, but I would argue these terms are not interchangeable. Perhaps it is my own quirky interpretation, but to me vengeance derives from anger, whereas justice derives from fairness. They are not necessarily the same. I agree that if left unchecked the simmering anger within our society could erupt into vengeance at some point. However, justice usually requires removal of anger from the equation. That is why the judicial branch conducts trials rather than the executive. In principle the judiciary is neutral, while the executive is pursuing (via the prosecutor) a particular outcome.

            • Rayne says:

              If the basic urge for fairness isn’t satisfied through transparent justice, there’s a demand for vengeance. In the absence of a commonly agreed upon justice system, humans exact vengeance.

              Is that clearer for you? If our justice system continues to be so grossly corrupted — including Congress’ obligation to investigate and punish politically as our representatives — those in power risk setting us back in terms of human emergence.

              I’ll point to Chris Cowan’s and Don Beck’s work in “Spiral Dynamics” here; their work was used to reverse the regression of the population in post-Apartheid South Africa. (Too bad their work wasn’t used longer and more widely.)

              • phred says:

                My only point was that you appeared to being using vengeance and justice interchangeably, they are not. Is that clearer for you?

                • Rayne says:

                  They become interchangeable when a society has regressed to that level.

                  Do we have a system of justice in this country any longer? How much worse does it have to get before we’re at that point of regression? We’ve had merchants policing streets, merchants building detention centers and now prisons, with the socially agreed upon governmental entities failing to stop this increasing substitution.

                  Right now we can only be sure of justice on a spotty, localized basis; it’s obvious we cannot be sure of it on a national level. What happens if this deteriorates further?

                  • phred says:

                    They become interchangeable when a society has regressed to that level.

                    I think we’ll have to agree to disagree on this point then.

                    In my view we enter dangerous territory when we allow the meaning of words to mutate into something opposite of their original intent. I understand that language evolves and meanings do change as a natural progression of usage. However, word meanings are also often manipulated specifically to make unacceptable things seem more acceptable. The entire neo-con lexicon is pretty much a case in point.

                    In this instance, I would not want to live in a world where there were no longer distinctions between vengeance and justice. At that point, we would have entirely lost the values and principles of what we now consider justice.

                    Have we lost our system of justice? Not yet, I still see glimmers of hope anyway, but there is no guarantee we won’t. Still, for now SCOTUS hangs on by a one vote thread, the Kucinich’s and Wexler’s of the world keep pressing for accountability (admittedly against formidable opposition from their own party), Fitzgerald and others like him continue to persevere against a corrupt DoJ, and we still retain the right to vote (even though we cannot count on desirable candidates).

                    What happens if this deteriorates further? I have no idea, but I’m not yet ready to assume the worst.

        • MarkH says:

          But unless we show the world that we can police our own criminals, who can trust us?
          No one.

      • phred says:

        Thanks for that excellent link on non-violence. I had not heard that interpretation before of the story of turning-the-other-cheek, it changes one’s perception of the meaning entirely — thanks!

    • readerOfTeaLeaves says:

      Agree that they have no idea who they are messing with. But I’d say that applies to Dems, as well as Republicans.

      I’ve kind of moved beyond wanting revenge. I look at economic, biological, global warming-related info and data, and I think the whole notion of ‘revenge’ is just not that compelling for me at this point.

      But every single day these asshats continue to explode bombs, send naval aircraft carriers floating at sea with thousands of people on them, use up quantities of jet fuel, blow up more pipelines, drill more oil, threaten to build and/or use nuclear weapons… This is massive, international insanity. Screw it.

      These craven swine are sucking up too much energy. At this point, I’m fed up with unregulated markets, incredibly expensive health care, pollution enablers, and a host of ills.

      These people have committed crimes.
      Congress needs to deal with it the same way that I’ve dealt with a tub of yoghurt that spilled all over the floor. Clean it up, clear it out. Got work to do.

      • readerOfTeaLeaves says:

        Should have said, “Congress needs to deal with the US criminals — the whole lot of BushCheney enablers: Wurmser, Franklin, Perle, yadda, yadda.”

        Why?
        Because we’re in a global environment, and the complications created by failing to police your own malicious, criminal jackasses make you look like an inept entity that invites being pwning.

        If we don’t police ‘our bad guys’ then we lose credibility.
        It’s not much more complicated than that.

        Meanwhile, every single day, every single hearing, every single meeting sucks up energy that really needs to be focused on much more important, long term objectives related to environmental indicators, public health, and financial sanity…

        Or do I repeat myself… repeat myself… repeat myself….

        Vengeance and revenge aren’t that useful at this point.
        They’re just too much of a drag on what needs to be done, and until their crimes are addressed and they pay they’re going to continue to be ‘balast’ that we can’t afford if we’re to be credible on global issues.

    • Leen says:

      I can do without the flesh but sure would like to see some serious punishment for the crimes committed. Sure would like to know that my children (who are well aware of what has taken place) witness our Justice System and Congress work the way they were intended to.

      Just seems a wee bit obvious that the unnecessary deaths of millions, the outing of Plame, the ransacking of the treasury, the abuse of our military, abuse of our Justice system etc etc. would be a call for serious consequences.

      I’m watching (and doing everything a citizen can), my children are watching, the fdl crew continues to do everything they can along with much of the progressive blogosphere, the world is watching. Will congress do their job? Is it too much to ask for Justice??

      • Rayne says:

        What if you were a victim of a violent crime, and could not reasonably be certain of justice?

        So far we’ve been able to control ourselves, remain in touch with our better angels because we perceive the crimes against our society as non-violent.

        Believe me, I want the same for my kids, spend enormous amounts of time talking about right, wrong, knowing the difference, along with the expected outcomes of making bad choices with my school-aged kids. But how do I explain to them that whatever I’m teaching them has become a model, and is no longer the truth at federal level? (It’s getting sketchy here in our state, given the joke of a state supreme court that we have, and even sketchier depending on the level of financial distress each community faces.)

        At some point my kids must know the truth of this as will all other youth, and it will begin to mess with their heads. This entire debacle is another violation of a much deeper and longer kind, that will take a couple generations to repair.

        Assuming we are able to begin the repairs to our government by January 2009…

        • readerOfTeaLeaves says:

          At some point my kids must know the truth of this as will all other youth, and it will begin to mess with their heads. This entire debacle is another violation of a much deeper and longer kind, that will take a couple generations to repair.

          But when people commit crimes, and are never held accountable, it fundamentally violates our sense of order, of sanity, or security.
          We think, ‘The world has gone insane’.

          I think that you are pointing to the destruction of the social fabric.
          That’s what’s at stake here, IMHO.

        • Leen says:

          My youngest daughter and a pack of her friends (18-20) got on the FDL blog with me while the Libby Trial was taking place (I was able to attend for 9 days). They were amazed and impressed by what was going on on this blog and the call for Justice. Of course they had many questions and ask some of them on this site. (the obvious questions why had friends of theirs suffered more consequences (gone to jail etc) for smoking marijuana, under aged drinking etc). There were several esteemed lawyer folks on this site who told them to “get used to it”. And at the same time it was oh so obvious what folks here were fighting hard for.

          And I think you are right that the American people would call for Justice but most of them have low expectations of our Justice system because so many have accepted the “get used to it”, and have accepted the role of the walking dead.

          This “getting used to it” only serves to feed the American people’s (and our youths) strong notion that that there are at least two or more Justice Systems in this nation. We are rotting at the core and many people in this country and around the world smell the stench.

          As Fitz, Ew and many others have pointed it is in congress’e court

  17. sanandreasfaults says:

    Dues,
    Conspiracy stuff, what if he knew the dark secrets. He, Russert, was in the middle of all this. I’m know I’m just throwing crap out there. Still!

    • bmaz says:

      So, you are proposing that the Bush/Cheney cabal somehow managed to off Russert, their own go to guy in the clutch, right in the middle of the NBC studio complex after he had been there hours working? Where in the world does stuff like this come from?

  18. BayStateLibrul says:

    The Great Debate.

    What scares me is that the Bush cabal will do everything to prevent
    Obama from becoming Prez…. it will be nasty, very nasty.
    If Obama is elected, the whole Bush crew could be heading for prison.

  19. MadDog says:

    EW, I would add a few additional names to your list of who to subpoena to a HJC hearing:

    1. All members of WHIG including especially Mary Matalin, Karen Hughes, and John Rendon from the Rendon Group. The plan to take out Joe Wilson was an organized plan rather than just a bit of whimsy concocted by Cheney in his bunker. WHIG was the “war-room” in the White House responsible for selling the war, and by inference alone, would have had as one of its primary missions, a direct responsibility for taking out critics.

    2. Dan Bartlett. His involvement in the mission to take out Joe Wilson is unrefuted, but seemingly unexplored. Remember that he held the position of “Director of Rapid Response” during the 2000 campaign, and was deputy to Karen Hughes. He seems to escaped any real public examination.

    And of course, should any or all of these folks be called to testify, it would sure help if the HJC would avail itself of a real prosecuting attorney-type to conduct the interrogations.

    • bmaz says:

      When they not just hail them in, but plop their butts in front of staff counsel for depositions before the public testimony in front of the committee, you will know they are actually taking this stuff seriously. You know, the third degree full court press of an effort they made on little ole Roger Clemens and associated witnesses for allegedly getting a few roid shots. But, see, they were serious there; I have seen none of that here. Kabuki.

      • readerOfTeaLeaves says:

        Man, keep prying the curtains back to reveal the Kabuki.
        I’m really getting fed up with this stale, sorry show. Bet I’m not the only one.

      • MadDog says:

        But, see, they were serious there; I have seen none of that here. Kabuki.

        Yeah, I’m not very hopeful either. Too many years of “survival of the timidest” have left the ranks of the Democrats with all the ferociousness of gerbils.

        “Timidity rules!” is their battle-cry these days.

    • emptywheel says:

      Agree about Bartlett. Less so about WHIG. I think people forget that the WHIG that Fitz subpoenaed (for their meetings in July 2003) is vastly different than the WHIG that planned the war in September 2002. It’s still interesting, mind you, but I’m more interested–and I think we’ll go further–in subpoenaing the people IN WHIG we know can talk.

      Also, about Bartlett, I do believe he’d be less willing than Card and less legally obliged than Ari, so I’d go those two first.

      • bmaz says:

        Well, you would normally think that Ari would be pretty darn obligated what with his little immunity play and all.

        • emptywheel says:

          Just a question of logistics. Does Congress have to give Ari immunity too? Not that there’s any downside–if he says something different than he did to Fitz, then Fitz can haul his ass in. But it seems like Ari’s a no-brainer.

          • bmaz says:

            Heck if I know, but even if so, I would think it would be just a formality of having the special prosecutor/DOJ and court reaffirm that the immunity grant is still effective for the current proceedings. That is coming maybe out of the other end of my thought processes though, so isn’t worth much.

          • MarkH says:

            Just a question of logistics. Does Congress have to give Ari immunity too? Not that there’s any downside–if he says something different than he did to Fitz, then Fitz can haul his ass in. But it seems like Ari’s a no-brainer.

            cog…wheel…”good German”…plea bargain…

            tide is high…approaching D-day…ready to go…

            “et cetera et cetera et cetera”

  20. siri says:

    Well, ew, this IS flawless. God and worlds all know I am not an attorney, and so, it does take “a minute” to get through these posts. But I do get it all and know enough to know when something is thoroughly NAILED. This is definitely another one of those times.

    The question of why Congress is not acting, not responding to the 06 elections and mandates, and their continued ineffective performance since those elections, is the real puzzle of the day(for me, anyway).

    I have several theories on that. All of them are moving toward the same conclusion. And that’s that in some form, Pelosi and Reid, et. al., will do ANYTHING possible, necessary, debatable, desirable or not to ensure, at any cost, a Democratic White House in ‘08, and a Democratic Congress. It’s purely and simply for power, and those who have died during the implementation of this ploy and ideology have “given their lives for their country”; it’s a total and complete survival tactic in that manner. To them.

    I LIKE to think they are operating in this mode because they know that maybe 4 and certainly 8 more years of Bu$h policies will bring much of this nation and Her principles to an end, perhaps forever.

    I worry that it’s the desire for and attainment of the accumulation of power for power’s sake, that long and ancient list of privilege, money, fame, are only side dishes to the bigger pathological craving.

    I choose to believe that some of their drive is in the interest of self-preservation; self meaning “all of humanity” (and I DO mean that in the primitive sense).

    This article, Marcy, brought clarity on some details of this entire, complex and boggling “affair” to the surface MOST nicely! Like water smoothing out after the tossed stone settles on the bottom. Nice work, not unusual or unexpected given your talent and abilities, to be sure, but just flippin’ astounding job here.

    Thank you, mam.

  21. FrankProbst says:

    Dick Cheney declassified Valerie Wilson’s identity (either with Bush’s implicit or explicit approval) and told Libby to leak it to Judy Miller.

    I continue to disagree with you on this point. We have seen NO evidence that Dick Cheney ever “declassified” anything with respect to Valerie Wilson. Even if you stipulate that Cheney had the authority to do something like this, I haven’t seen anything to suggest that he actually did it. No one has ever said that Bush or Cheney declassified her status, and her status was treated as classified well after the leak occurred, meaning that they would have had to insta-declassify her, betray her identity, and then reclassify her status. There’s no paper trail to support this sequence of events, and no one has told us that Bush or Cheney told anyone about any insta-declassification or reclassification. Scooter Libby is the person would could have testified to something like this, and he went out of his way (to point of committing multiple felonies) to NOT say that Bush or Cheney ever insta-declassified or reclassified Wilson’s status.

    The conclusion is obvious: Plame’s status was still classified when Cheney ordered the leak. He knew, and he didn’t care, because he never thought he’d get caught. And I’m not buying any “if Cheney ordered it, then the declassification was implicit” argument. We’re talking about national security information here. There has to be some sort of minimal protocol for declassifying information, and I’m quite certain that it doesn’t involve Judy Miller.

    • earlofhuntingdon says:

      Cheney and Bush alternately tear down and conflate what ought to be separate, sequential processes. They then make intellectually and morally vacuous arguments about “necessity” to hide their contempt for consequences for others and to avoid them themselves.

      It’s a kind of procedural warfare. Like foreign terrorism, it, too, is asymetrical. The procedures they tear down protect people and shepherd rare, expensive resources, like experts on WMD’s and covert field ops that troll for threats among the ocean of arms and technology being sold worldwide. You know, real world-based procedures that acknowledge limits on our resources, power and opportunities. The kind that competent CEO’s wrestle with every day.

      Bush does it because he can’t be bothered to understand what the procedures are, what they’re for, and why they’re important. And because he lets nothing get in the way of political payback.

      Cheney does it because those procedures are all built to support decision making by the President. Cheney’s the decision maker, but not the President. So to be effective without revealing that usurpation of power, he can’t merely co-opt those procedures. He needs hidden, alternate ones that short-circuit or countermand official procedures, and which allow him to substitute his decisions for what the government understands are the President’s.

      I think that’s old news in the village, but they play along. At first, it was because they gave Shrub a break, he was new. Then they gave him a break because they were scared, first of further terrorist attacks, then of the power Cheney acquired and the power of payback he, Bush and Rove ruthlessly wielded. And because mega-corporation owners of “news” organizations made a lot more money playing along than pointing that shit out. Now that time and the jig are both nearly up, tears are appearing in the seams, but not many.

      The problem I see in holding Cheney to account, even if Democrats in Congress tried to do it, is that Bush ratifies everything Cheney does, whether or not he knows what it is. That seems to be part of their deal for managing the White House, a kind of Mr. Inside and Mr. Throw Out the Baseballs Outside. Which is why I like EW’s point that we take advantage of the conflicts between Cheney and Bush’s positions and interests. We need to set the greedy cat among the criminal pigeons and see what feathers fly.

      • readerOfTeaLeaves says:

        Agree with your points, but it puts me in mind of that bizarre press conference by GWBush last October. The man looked positively ill; I’ve sometimes wondered whether he’s figure out that Cheney (and Bandar, and who only knows…) have him by the balls.

        If anyone on the planet ought to dislike Richard Cheney, it should be GWBush.
        Or Laura.

        • earlofhuntingdon says:

          I think that the inside team accepted Cheney would have some sort of prince regent role from the get go. Bush was in over his head running a tiny drilling outfit into the ground, so to speak. Same with being governor of Texas. Despite the state’s size and complexity, it’s legislature meets only every other year. Agencies, boards, and informal outsiders really keep the place running.

          That said, I’m not sure anyone understood how secretive and ruthless and how superlative a bureaucrat Cheney was. And how utterly dependent, how unable to learn or grow, Shrub is. As you say, Laura may be the exception. Her cognitive dissonance must be exceptionally high; either that, or there’s none at all.

        • Minnesotachuck says:

          If anyone on the planet ought to dislike Richard Cheney, it should be GWBush.
          Or Laura.

          And Bush 41,

    • freepatriot says:

      have to agree with FrankProbst here

      where’s the evidence that bush declassified Valerie Plame’s identity ???

      that alone would destroy the repuglitard party

      ever heard of “Malfeasance” ???

      it’s a word, you could look it up

      Valerie Plame’s secret identity and operation was the property of The People Of The United States. And we have laws governing how secrets are kept, and when and how such secrets are revealed

      to say that george bush can instantly declassify anything he wants is to believe in PIXIE DUST

      there are sections of the US Code that deal with unlawful declassification

      george bush should be liable for violating the laws governing classified information, malfeasance, and misappropriation of US Governmet property unless he has a valid reason for revealing classified information

      and the US Code FLAT OUT SAYS that prevention of political embarrassment or prevention of criminal prosecution isn’t a valid reason to declassify US property

      think of this as a proprietary and fiscal issue

      it’s theft of valuable property for personal political advantage

      and that ain’t legal

      You’re still my muse though …

      I like your moxie

      • emptywheel says:

        To some degree it doesn’t matter.

        Even Bill Leonard, who is no friend of this Administration particularly Cheney, interprets the law on declassification to say the President’s ability to declassify information–and information–is absolute. It is akin to pardon authority.

        So if they say that Bush gave vague authority or that Bush’s EO says Cheney has authority, then you’re in that unclear range where, while you’re right that in any other case it’d be illegal, in this case, the proper rememdy is impeachment, because it’s precisely the kind of abuse of power that impeachment was designed for.

        We don’t have any paper evidence that BUsh declassified the NIE–all we have, five years after the fact, is Scottie telling us BUsh did declassify the NIE. Yet no one doubts he did that.

        This is, incidentally, one of the reasons why I think COngress can pit Bush and Cheney against each other.

        • FrankProbst says:

          Even Bill Leonard, who is no friend of this Administration particularly Cheney, interprets the law on declassification to say the President’s ability to declassify information–and information–is absolute. It is akin to pardon authority.

          My point is that, even if you stipulate that Cheney has absolute authority to declassify information, I’ve seen no evidence that he actually did so, and plenty of evidence that he didn’t. There’s certainly no documentation that I’ve seen. Scooter Libby never mentioned it, and we’ve heard all of his GJ testimony. We also know that Libby went to Addington and asked him about the IIPA, and as far as we can tell, Libby didn’t ask the obvious question: “Well, Dick Cheney told me he declassified her status, so I’m in the clear, right?”

          I think you’re giving Dick Cheney too much credit here. Even if he COULD HAVE declassified Valerie Wilson’s status, he never actually did it. I think Fitz called bullshit on this very point during his interview with Cheney, and I think that’s why everyone says that the interview was so explosive. This is one of the (many) reasons why the charges against Libby were so brilliant–Libby’s guilty even if you accept Cheney’s bullshit as true.

          I also think that keeping that interview out of sight was one of the key goals of Team Libby at the trial. And it could have helped them in the sentencing phase, too, because Libby’s original sentence lengths were all based on the IIPA. They tried to argue that Valerie Wilson wasn’t covert during the sentencing phase, and the judge said he “would have” entertained that argument earlier, and they immediately dropped it. That wasn’t a legal blunder. That was Team Libby knowing full well that they were being paid to keep that transcript under wraps.

          • emptywheel says:

            No, actually there IS evidence that Cheney ordered Libby to leak Plame and that he claimed to declassify it.

            When Cheney ordered Libby to leak whatever it was to Judy on July 7, Libby said, “no I can’t, it’s classified.” Cheney said, “Nah, BUshie said it’s okay.” Libby then went to Addington on either July 7 and 8 to make sure that was enough (incidentally, when Addington testified, he used the word “information,” not “document.”) When Libby spoke to Addington, he, at the same time, asked about documentation from a CIA spouse’s trip, so it’s clear that Valerie and Joe were part of the discussion.

            Now, you say that’s evidence Cheney declassified the NIE. Nope! It is impossible that the classified information in question on July 7 was the NIE because Libby had already leaked it on two occasions. So Cheney was asking Libby to leak something else, something he had not leaked before, on July 7. It could be the CIA trip report, granted. But waht Judy testified as being the center of that conversation was Plame.

            And as to your suggestion that there should be a post-it note with CHeney declass Judy Judy Judy–that’s effectively what Libby’s two notes–between that Cheney meeting and his Judy meeting–are. The Navy v Egan verifies that he was checking about insta-declassification directly in response to his conversation with Cheney.

            You might argue that the point is whether Cheney or Bush did it–and that’s the beauty of it. Either one of them takes responsibility, or everything else becomes much mroe criminal. Right now, neither of them have taken responsibility, they’re trying to get through this by treating it ambiguously. But they can’t do that if the press starts to get its head out of its ass.

            • FrankProbst says:

              Hmmm. You’re relying on the testimony of a convicted perjurer to make your case here, though. Still, I’m willing to concede the point.

              Let’s take from there, then: Cheney orders the leak, Libby botches it, MORE people have to leak it, and it finally comes out in the press. And as far as we can tell, NO ONE bothered to tell the CIA that Cheney was actively trying to betray one of their covert operatives during a time of war. I’ll stipulate that Cheney can insta-declassify, so this technically wasn’t an IIPA violation. Even so, it was unquestionably providing material support to our enemies during a time of war. And we STILL have no idea how much damage was done to our intelligence-gathering abilities after the loss of Brewster-Jennings. So how is this NOT treason?

              • emptywheel says:

                No, actually I’m relying on the contemporaneous notes of a person who would later invent lies to explain away things that appeared in his notes but who, when he wrote those notes, believed no one would ever read his notes.

                You can get 80% to proving Cheney insta-declassified Plame with the Sanger interview notes (taken by Cathie Martin), the Woodward admission he was leaked the “vigorously pursuing uranium” quote, Libby’s own notes, and Judy’s two accounts of their meeting. You don’t need Libby’s GJ testimony.

              • readerOfTeaLeaves says:

                Cheney orders the leak, Libby botches it, MORE people have to leak it, and it finally comes out in the press. And as far as we can tell, NO ONE bothered to tell the CIA that Cheney was actively trying to betray one of their covert operatives during a time of war. I’ll stipulate that Cheney can insta-declassify, so this technically wasn’t an IIPA violation. Even so, it was unquestionably providing material support to our enemies during a time of war. And we STILL have no idea how much damage was done to our intelligence-gathering abilities after the loss of Brewster-Jennings. So how is this NOT treason?

                Just a quick contrarian point: Libby did NOT botch it.

                That’s part of why this whole thing is so fascinating to me.
                He did it perfectly.
                He must surely have done it according to plan.
                He DIDN’T screw it up.

                It was the Law of Unintended Consequences.
                The crime — treason, as you note — was so bad that it changed the rules! AND it changed them retroactively…. *cue up the dum-dum-DUM-dum soundtrack for FISA…*

                The crime of treason was so serious that Judge Reggie said, “Yeah, I realize that since Watergate no reporter has had to reveal their sources. But in light of Suspected Treason At the Highest Levels of Government [OVP, Preznit], I’m going to put Judy-Judy-Judy’s evasive, manipulative, deceitful butt in jail until she wakes up and realizes that protecting sources does NOT give any reporter the right to be a party to treason.”

                So Libby leaked as planned.
                Judge Reggie said, “Think we need some new rules here, since y’all are using the press to commit treason.”

                One of the key merits of McClellan’s book (and testimony!) is that he points out that he’s sure Libby never, ever expected to get caught. And I think that’s part of what people REALLY need to keep in mind, because that in itself shows how brazen these creeps are about CIA agents and all the rest of us. They don’t give a rat’s ass about any one of us, or anyone we care about.

            • bmaz says:

              Exactly. They have been allowed, to make a lame analogy, to engage in a he said/she said and pass it off effectively as nothing was said. Madness indeed.

              “…when Addington testified, he used the word “information,” not “document.” To me, that was quite telling. From what I have observed with Addington, he was much more chatty and forthcoming on the stand than one might suspect, but I sure got the impression he was choosing his words specifically and intentionally. I think he used those words for a reason.

              And to Frank Probst and others. There is a difference between evidence and proof. Very few things in law are actually established by direct irrefutable direct proof. Rather, if you take a hard sober look, most things are, in fact, established by convincing circumstantial evidence. In this case, there is a whole lot of circumstantial evidence, and Marcy has pointed out a ton of it. Would it be sufficient to constitute proof beyond a reasonable doubt against Bush or Cheney in a criminal trial courtroom? That would depend on the actual charge at bar, but I doubt it at this point. But it is infinitely beyond that which is sufficient to demand the further questions, answers and disclosures. That is what she is saying and she is quite right.

              • readerOfTeaLeaves says:

                Would it be sufficient to constitute proof beyond a reasonable doubt against Bush or Cheney in a criminal trial courtroom? That would depend on the actual charge at bar, but I doubt it at this point. But it is infinitely beyond that which is sufficient to demand the further questions, answers and disclosures. That is what she is saying and she is quite right.

                You are correct.
                I am a bit confused (perhaps too many research reports in my background…?) between the legal requirements for ‘proof’ vs ‘evidence’.

                (Science doesn’t ‘prove’ anything; it only assesses the integrity and validity of the evidence. So looks like same basic approach in the courtroom then?)

        • FrankProbst says:

          We don’t have any paper evidence that BUsh declassified the NIE–all we have, five years after the fact, is Scottie telling us BUsh did declassify the NIE. Yet no one doubts he did that.

          Um, I doubt that he did it. Or more precisely, I doubt that he did it before everyone started leaking it. Because no one can agree on when this supposed declassification really happened. And no one has notes to support it. Scooter Libby took notes on everything. There should be a Post-It note somewhere that says, “Declass by Pres–leak to JudyJudyJudy.”

          • readerOfTeaLeaves says:

            Why should there be a note anywhere?
            Maybe I am reading you incorrectly, but you seem to be saying that if there isn’t hard, clear evidence then Bush walks.

            And I’m disagreeing.
            Damage was done.
            SOMEONE has to be accountable.

            Even if Bush was smart enough not to leave a paper trail (which is my hunch) damage was done. I think it’s valid to claim that it was his job to leave a paper trail, or make sure one existed. And if, as ‘CEO’ he failed to ensure that such a trail was left, we still have an outed CIA agent on his watch. And on Cheney’s.

            So they need to be removed from office.
            They took an oath to protect citizens and federal employees.
            They failed in a spectacular fashion to meet that oath.
            There need to be consequences — starting with legal charges, followed by removal for ‘dereliction of duty’ at the very least.

  22. posaune says:

    hey ew — outstanding post, thanks.
    what about fran townsend & hubby, after that wapo smear job during the trial?
    oh, and i guess scooter won’t be going to the russert funeral, huh?

  23. rkilowatt says:

    Odd that power to delegate authority-to-declassify can be verbal without witness? No formality, such as in-writing,is required? That allows anyone to spill beans and claim he was delegated that authority..and it becomes a he said…she said? How can that scenario be swallowed?

    Has not the prez been asked if he declassified a doc containing Plame’s cover? Or did he delegate that authority?, and if so, what were the particulars? Done without ExecutiveOrder and no verifiable track?

  24. MarkusQ says:

    Marcy –

    The word “corroborated” should probably be “coordinated” in the third bullet point. Corroborated means the opposite of what I believe you are intending.

    – MarkusQ

  25. obsessed says:

    When I read Rezko’s claim that Fitz & Co. pressured him to falsely implicate Obama I had one of those whiplash plot twist moments. Think about it …

    Did the extent of the Plame investigation come to light in time to influence the 2004 election?

    Did anyone in the Bush Adminstration suffer any real consequence besides Libby losing his law license?

    And to which party does Fitz belong? Occam’s Razor anyone? Just sayin’.

  26. LabDancer says:

    Ms E Wheel – I thought about making some smartass remark like: Oh, you two kids ought to stop fighting so much & just get together & work things out –

    but then it occurred to me this might be part of that.

    Anyay, with all the racket from rocketfire over Gaza & pyrotechnics in honor/dishonor of FDB at your Churlish post I thought Id find & get through all the really good stuff the leafy substance analyst had going on there, I managed to miss the long awaited throw down – and believe you me Ive got something to say on this…right after…sleep…tired…

  27. BayStateLibrul says:

    “There are at least three piece of evidence that point to Bush’s involvement in the leak: his comment to Libby on June 9 that he was concerned about the Niger allegations, his authorization of the leak to Judy Miller, and Cheney’s aborted claim that Bush asked Libby to stick his neck in a meat-grinder.”

    I would add a fourth, post facto: Bush’s commutation of Libby. You mentioned it after, but to me that is “prima facie” and the last straw.

    What your article concludes, is that without “whistleblowers” we are
    sunk. True enough, but if Fitzy knows that Bush/Cheney’s statements
    are contradictory or lies, in my opinion, he has a “moral” not a “legal”
    obligation to let the US citizenry know.

    I know that is the high ground, but….

    I have this sinking feeling that McCellan’s testimony will only
    produce another round of circle-jerking.

    • emptywheel says:

      First, my conclusion is NOT that the only way we move forward is with whistleblowers.

      I’m fairly confident that this hearing can be used to bring enough pressure to bear on Mukasey to get the Bush/Cheney interview transcripts. At that point, we’ll know what BUsh and CHeney said, so we’ll have our answer on whether what they said was contradictory. What we’ll learn they said is that Bush told Cheney to get it all out and Bush maintains that he never knew with specificity that this included Plame.

      I actually think Bush may not have been asked about the June 9 diary entry showing him commenting on the Niger allegations. Unsure about the meat-grinder note. By focusing on those, you raise doubt about Bush’s claims wrt the actual declassification.

      So what you can do–if you play the political and media came right–is to give Bush and Cheney three options.

      1) Bush says he gave vague instructions to get it out, and Cheney is then blamed with ordering the leak after only vaguely getting her declassified. Then everyone beats up on Cheney and says, “That’s not legal, you should be tried, let’s impeach. And oh, what did Dick do to get Libby commuted?”

      2) Bush says he only authorized the NIE (and possibly the CIA trip report leak). Cheney claims he had the ability to declassify Plame via EO 13292. Then everyone beats up on Cheney and says, “That’s not legal, you should be tried, let’s impeach. And oh, what did DIck do to get Libby commuted?”

      3) Bush admits he did know they were going to out Plame. Everyone says, “okay, by the letter of the law, that is legal, but it’s such an obvious abuse of power that we impeach you.”

      They’ve been alternating between option 1 and 2–which has been fine thus far, since there’s been no real credible threat of legal consequences for Cheney. BUt if he every believed he was in real legal jeopardy, I don’t think he would take it gracefully.

      Also, I do firmly believe that Andy Card has more damning testimony to give than Scottie McC. He heard from Bush directly about Cheney’s call to have Libby exonerated, so he’s a better fact witness to Bush’s personal involvement. Libby asked him twice for an exoneration, which he refused. And Andy Card tried to shut BUsh up when he started talking about exonerations. Andy Card contemporaneously recognized what they were doing with the exonerations (both Rove and Libby) was improper. Scottie appears to have been bugged by it only because he was made to be a liar. All of which would make Card a much more interesting witness than Scottie–and given his silence wrt Scottie, I suspect he might, reluctantly, testify.

      Also, FWIW, I think between teh two of them they knew that Libby had been involved, and that they shouldn’t exonerate him. That’s a detail that should come out.

      • phred says:

        EW, first let me commend you on your excellent series of posts on Scottie’s book, plus getting them done in time to be helpful for Congressional staffers prepping HJC committee members for Scottie’s testimony next week. However, with this post you have truly outdone yourself… you have laid out exactly what HJC needs to do to move their inquiry forward. I’m curious, have you sent copies of this to every Dem member on the HJC (she asked hopefully ; )

      • BayStateLibrul says:

        Thanks.
        My eight-year old grandson stole the computer from me to play
        a Sponge Bob game… so I’m a little tardy.

        I can’t wait for Friday as the mystery unravels…
        I’m not a true Celtics fan, Red Sox yes, but I turned off the
        TV when the Celtics were down by two dozen.
        Johnny Most, please forgive me.

      • readerOfTeaLeaves says:

        And Andy Card tried to shut BUsh up when he started talking about exonerations…. Scottie appears to have been bugged by it only because he was made to be a liar. All of which would make Card a much more interesting witness than Scottie…

        That certainly comes across in McClellan’s book. How much does Card know that we’ve never heard about? Seems like he has key pieces.

        But thanks for laying out the 3 scenarios: A, B, C so clearly here.
        What puzzles me still is that Iran-Contra seemed to have at its core the whole notion of ‘plausible deniability’. In other words, ‘if you can’t prove we did it beyond a reasonable doubt, then we walk’. That means all evidence becomes circumstantial, correct?

        But am I correct in understanding that Fitz is stopped by claims of ‘plausible deniability’ because the laws as written really don’t offer a solution to that problem. It’s a hole in the law, and they’ve spotted it and they have built their empire on it:
        – can’t definitively prove election fraud in Florida? Then they get away with it.
        – can’t definitively prove that setting up the OSP inside DOD was extra-constitutional? Then they get away with it.
        – cant’ definitively prove that Bush actively ordered Plame’s name declassified and leaked? Then they get away with it.

        If I am correct, then we’re in a region where the law — where Fitz — has exhausted all his resources to remedy the problem of tyranny and lawlessness.

        That really tosses the ball (and bats, soccer cleats, goal posts, and assorted sundry metaphors) to Congress.

        Because we have a problem: lawlessness, subversion of Constitutional law.
        And it’s enabled by ‘workarounds’ to the legislative codes, by means of using the administrative powers to invent whole new ’subagencies’ (like OSP inside DoD).

        So we have a new law that’s out of control.
        I guess the simplest way to put it is that we have a political retrovirus — Bu$hCo is to Constitutional government what AIDS is to the body: it takes control by mimicking existing structures, and then remaking them based on its own agenda.
        It’s subversive.
        It’s happening from the inside out.

        The nature of this problem is in some respects legal, but it’s also fundamentally political.
        Fitz could only address the legal aspects. He did his best, but he’s out of tools.
        The Courts have no tools at this point, because they can only judge what Fitz brings them. And he can’t bring them anything more at this point.

        Which means that Congress is the last barricade between fascist tyranny and Constitutional government.
        And Cheney, former head of House Intel, who no doubt has spies planted in every key Congressional committee on the Hill, is a master of finding out what he needs to know in order to avert, subvert, or avoid Congressional action.

        So the stakes are rising.

        Per your @55, I’d completely missed that WHIG of Sept 2002 was not the same as WHIG July 2003. I was completely confused about that, so thanks for yet another clarification to clear up that messy tangle of errors.

        • Leen says:

          The way you have described “plausible deniability” as a “hole in the law”. Sounds more like the description of a black hole where light may enter but never escapes.

        • emptywheel says:

          Well, I think Cheney DOESN’T have plausible deniability. He’d have a tough time arguing that he couldn’t have ordered Libby to leak Plame bc he’s the one who told him about Plame in the first place.

          • readerOfTeaLeaves says:

            Oh, wow.
            Sorry to be such a dolt, but FProbst at 122, you at 123 and 124 are sharpening the focus on several things that were a bit muddy in my mind.

            Thank you both so much!

  28. bmaz says:

    And the peans to Tim Russert have begun. Tim Russert is the most important father and son in the world; in fact, he may be the only one. Today is not about any of the rest of us fathers in the world, it is all about Tim Russert. Actually today ought to be universally proclaimed and renamed Tim Russert day, because in the history of the world, no father/son has ever stood square with the mighty Tim Russert. I am ready to puke again.

    • MarieRoget says:

      Oh, yes, bmaz, ’tis Russert’s elevation to a high, high plane that dominates tv news shows this a.m. And it’s recycling over & over. Finally even the mute button wasn’t enough & turned it off.

      EPU’d from yesterday’s “Churlish” thread:

      “News coverage of Russert’s death will probably continue in this vein for several days, wknd @ least. The eyebrow headline for online Wa Po op-eds (also the title of Todd Gitlin’s piece) sums up why- “A Death in the Family.” Of course that would be the Village Family, not our national family who have sacrificed to the number of 4,098 as of last Thursday.

      Furthermore, it seemed pretty damned pathetic late last night (when returning from a short business trip) to have to go to the Weather Channel to get coverage of the horrific Iowa flooding lasting longer than 10 secs. CNN et al. were much more interested in rehashing their 24 hr. canonization of Russert.

      I’d like to think NBC can come up w/someone a little more on the ball to do MTP that Russert was, someone who isn’t Andrea Mitchell or David Gregory. I’d also like to think the FedEx envelope I’m about to open from the collected mail here on the desk contains a million $$$.”

      • Minnesotachuck says:

        I’d like to think NBC can come up w/someone a little more on the ball to do MTP that Russert was, someone who isn’t Andrea Mitchell or David Gregory.

        How about Keith Olberman?

        • Rayne says:

          Funny, I mentioned that yesterday to someone, that putting Keith in that slot would be immensely satisfying. But I simply don’t think that will happen, have a suspicion that KO wouldn’t want it, either, at the risk of becoming the news rather than reporting it.

          I wonder if Dan Abrams might not be better in this slot, given his current management capacity with the organization.

          Had MTP on for the last 30 min…I only wanted it on long enough to see who was hosting, but my spouse wanted to watch it. He says he’s seen nothing of the Russert coverage for the last 2+ days.

          That, right there, is the bulk of the American public; we assume they are more informed, but they’re not. The spouse didn’t even understand the twisted significance of Carville and Matalin on the program this morning. [sigh]

          • Minnesotachuck says:

            Had MTP on for the last 30 min…I only wanted it on long enough to see who was hosting, but my spouse wanted to watch it. He says he’s seen nothing of the Russert coverage for the last 2+ days.

            Sounds familiar. I listen/watch very little mainstream media, and among what I watch the least are the Sunday morning Kabuki theater performances. I know I should watch more of this, but doing so generates often irresistible urges to get up, slam the front door and walk around the block. My spouse is somewhat similar to yours; the only MSM news she regularly gets on her own initiative is GMA if she’s up in time (I know, the terms “news” and “GMA” in the same sentence without a negative is an oxymoron) and the ABC news in the evening. In addition to that she almost always reads or views the half dozen or more links I send her each day. When I mentioned on Friday afternoon that Russert had died, she didn’t recognize the name, although she knew the face and what he did when she saw the obit on the Charlie Gibson news.

            In saying this my intention is not to denigrate her in any way. She has other, valid interests that are important to her. Rather it is indicative of the challenge we face, as has been pointed out in earlier comments. How do we focus the attention of enough of the public, the vast majority of Americans who have been losing ground in these last 40 years or so of trickle-up economy, so that they become aware of what is at stake at least to a point where they’ll be motivated to go to the polls in November and vote for effective change. The left and center-left needs to coalesce around a frame that encapsulates what we’re all about in as few and as pithy words as possible. My off-the-top first suggestion is the single word Restoration. Anyone else have an idea? Paging George Lakoff.

            • readerOfTeaLeaves says:

              How do we focus the attention of enough of the public, the vast majority of Americans who have been losing ground in these last 40 years or so of trickle-up economy, so that they become aware of what is at stake at least to a point where they’ll be motivated to go to the polls in November and vote for effective change.

              Because MNChuck, as I view this whole mess, it’s one big, huge, giant Morality Tale.
              We humans are social critters.
              Social critters learn by watching other social critters.
              And social critters learn from stories.

        • bmaz says:

          I guess Olbermann would be an appropriate replacement for Russert; but if are really to keep that continuity going as the main feature of the show, it really should be renamed “Meet The Totally Pompous and Self Absorbed Psuudo Media Personality Scold”. Olbermann may be one of the only people on TV, heck he may be the only one on TV, that gave more pitiful and fucked up coverage of the primary than Russert. Yes he would be just perfect for the job.

          • Leen says:

            My money is on David Gregory. Sure would like to see Rachel Maddow get a spot. Damn she’s good, but too smart for the white boys at MSNBC.

            For those top spots the big boys would rather have a milk toast Katie Couric

        • Leen says:

          How about Gwen Ifill from PBS Washington Journal for Russerts position. She is by far one of the best. Wonder if she would take a step down in the world of quality news and her career and a step up in the $$$$$ world?

          Wonder if Bill Moyers would consider taking a step down?

          • Minnesotachuck says:

            Either Ifill or Moyers would be good. I can’t imagine Bill getting and offer from GE/NBC, however. Gwen maybe.

  29. wavpeac says:

    Well, it’s my daily dose of valid points that go against my wishes for accountability.

    I have no urge for vengeane, but know down to my toes, that without truth and accountability, the ideals our forefathers set out, will be lost. It’s about being accountable to something bigger than ourselves. Vengeance is a selfish emotion. Accountability is a necessity, even if it takes a 100 years to establish, the world must learn from this experience or suffer the consequences. And at this point the consequences come in the form of war, murder, suicide, and financial ruin.

    E.W sometimes I hate it when you are right. (and admire you tenacity and committment to the facts. You role model the “cure” for all of us).

  30. Leen says:

    Ew glad you bit into this.

    “suspected, suspended, impeached, convicted”

    It was interesting that Dean poked at Fitz and not Congress. In that big justice world out there, could Dean have been purposely baiting Fitz?

  31. klynn says:

    Excellent, excellent post EW. I plan to copy this and send it to Dean and all congress critters along with your comment at 75.

    Would love to see a “mail storm” of this post to every house and sen Dem. Any one willing to help?

    When oh when will FDL put that “print” option up?

    Anyway, absolutely spot on.

    I do think there is the possibility that Dean’s “poke” was to get Fitz a bit “ruffled” before he appears before Conyers and crew… As long as Conyers and crew “bite”… Unfortunately, Fitz does not ruffle. Although, the “out of his league statement just might bring out the legal “kill” instinct.

  32. skdadl says:

    Yes, I sort of thought it was EW’s point that Fitzgerald doesn’t have to do a Daniel Ellsberg (good thing, too, since one suspects that Fitz wouldn’t exactly approve of Ellsberg). But why should he when he’s already given Congress all they need to go forward in a more effective way?

    Do you honestly think, EW, that Mukasey will hand over those transcripts? I had just lost faith that Mukasey was likely to do anything at all but stonewall to the end of term. He is the one obstacle that has sometimes had me wishing that Fitzgerald could do an Ellsberg, but … no. Fantasyland, eh?

    • Leen says:

      At the end of the Libby trial during that last press conference Fitz let everyone know it was in Congress’s court and then again he let it be known it the ball was in their court.

  33. Minnesotachuck says:

    OT, but relevant to the whole Iraq fiasco. Commenter “Cold War Zoomie”, in the thread on Pat Lang’s post about the “Status of Forces” agreement, tells us that the Bush-Cheney cabal is asserting that we won’t have permanent bases in Iraq because, in one case at least, we’re building it on behalf of the one-plane Honduran Air Force:

    “Bush said the agreement…would not establish permanent U.S. bases.”

    Here’s a “temporary” base we’ve been using for donkey’s years:

    Soto Cano

    If you’ve ever been there, it takes all of ten seconds to figure out that it’s Honduran in name only.

    Here’s the supposed “host:”

    Honduran Air Force

    Interesting to see they’re down to one C-130. When I was there in the early 1990s, they had two or three at the airport in Tegucigalpa. Word from on high was that no American was allowed to fly on them since the Honduran maintenance was non existent. They must have crashed them all – they have a habit of that down there.

    (Fun Fact: the airline SAHSA’s name was not an acronym for Servicio Aéreo de Honduras SA but actually for Stay At Home – Stay Alive. SAHSA Crashes)

    Point is, we say we’re there for “joint exercises” and “joint operations” but in reality we’re the big dawg with all the toys and they are just cover for us to stay there.

    No value judgment, just a fact.

    Posted by: Cold War Zoomie

  34. wavpeac says:

    I heard a reporter on cnn say something to the effect that Russert was more than just a politician he “influenced” the news. This person was making the statement as if this quality was a good thing in a news person. While I am all for bring biases out in the light…what Russert did was hide his bias, and influence the picture seen by america in accordance with his world view. It is a totally other thing to have transparency about a bias and make clear what the biases are so that others are aware of them. (like colbert, and john stewart). Fox presents itself as objective which is where the great transgression is and was for Russert. He presented himself as objective but was anything but that.

    Don’t they teach this in school anymore.

  35. wavpeac says:

    Yes, Fitz gave them the wink and nod they needed, and E.W pointed it out at the time. But our congress refused to get the job done.

    • Leen says:

      You would have had to be stone cold dead not to have noticed Fitz wink and nod. Many people pointed this out

  36. Mary says:

    72 and post/prior
    I think that Bush(likely) and Cheney(even more so) did ok the use of the Plame info, so I am with EW there. I also think that it will be a bear to prove without anyone fessing up and Libby and Cheney have no incentive to fess up.

    However, whether or not the identity leak was ok’d by Bush, I don’t think it could be a declassification (just as I don’t think the NIE leak that has been, on the record, claimed to track back to Bush). That doesn’t have to do with Bush’s authority to declassify or not, if he chose to declassify. It has to do with what he actually did (a lot like the USAtty firings for that matter, where Bush claimed simultaneously that HE had nothing to do with any of the firings and also that HE could fire at will).

    Covertly giving a journalist some information, which they can use in any way they want, is covertly transferring info to a person – it isn’t declassification. The fact that the person is a journalist and the transfer of info to them is also covertly planting domestic propaganda makes that covert transfer a violation of the National Security Act as well, but it also is the case that a covert transfer of info to one person isn’t declassification. So whether or not there is plenary power to declassify (with respect to declassification issues and apart from Congressional stutory requirements like the NSA and IIPA) doesn’t come into play when the action isn’t declassification.

    In addition to the “not declassification” issue, there is also the issue of a layer of Congressioal statutes, as opposed to Executive Orders, like those dealing with covertly planting domestic propaganda and outing CIA operative identities, that may come into play whether there was or was not an activity that was actually declassification.

    Could Bush, openly and publically have a)announced the NIE declassifications and b) announced Plame’s CIA associations and claimed those were declassifications? Yeah, I think he could have (although there are procedural aspects to declassification in some instances, there is also the out in the existing EOs for revelations the President believes necessary and also the fact of the origination of the classification power coming from his office equalling an ability to change that classified status.)

    With respect to a) that would have made the National Security Act violations a non-issue and non-violation, because the information would not be covertly planted. With respect to b) he would still be in violation of the IIPA statute.

    Could Bush discuss and disseminate classified info with whoever he wanted, while it remained classified in the hands of the recipient? Sure. So while it wouldn’t have been illegal or a violation of any law or act for Bush himself to talk to Miller about the info, he could not claim the content of the discussion became somehow “declassified” (rather than disseminated to a closed group or individual) unless his transfer of information was non-covert.

    imo,fwiw.

    • FrankProbst says:

      I think that Bush(likely) and Cheney(even more so) did ok the use of the Plame info, so I am with EW there. I also think that it will be a bear to prove without anyone fessing up and Libby and Cheney have no incentive to fess up.

      They’ve already talked to the Feds about it. If they confessed to doing it, then I think the people have a right to know. If they said that they DIDN’T do it, then they’re either lying to the feds (felony), or their underlings are are guilty of leaking classified information (also a felony). The transcript is the key. That’s why Mukasey is keeping it under wraps.

      • Leen says:

        Valerie/Joe Plame Wilson expected Cheney to testify at the Libby trial. I know you folks have discussed this before but I can not remember the answer.

        Just why was it that Cheney did not have to testify? How did he get out of it?

        • FrankProbst says:

          Valerie/Joe Plame Wilson expected Cheney to testify at the Libby trial. I know you folks have discussed this before but I can not remember the answer.

          Just why was it that Cheney did not have to testify? How did he get out of it?

          Team Libby didn’t call him to testify. Team Fitz didn’t need to–he was irrelevant to their case.

          • readerOfTeaLeaves says:

            But that’s because, as you pointed out earlier, they were well paid to ensure that he’d be judged ‘irrelevant’. Correct?

            • FrankProbst says:

              But that’s because, as you pointed out earlier, they were well paid to ensure that he’d be judged ‘irrelevant’. Correct?

              Well, Team Fitz didn’t call Cheney, because they had carefully constructed their charges to be impervious to both a greymail defense (”Everything is classified!”) AND a pixie-dust defense (”Everything is DEclassified!”). They did such a good job that the presiding judge said that the evidence of Libby’s guilt was “overwhelming”, and even Fred Fielding had to acknowledge that Libby was totally busted and had absolutely no weasel room. Cheney had wasn’t needed as a witness to prove all of this, so Fitz didn’t need to call him.

              Team Libby, on the other hand, was pretty much boxed in. Yes, they were being paid to protect Cheney more than Libby, so they didn’t want to embarrass Cheney to begin with, but there was nothing Cheney could have said that would have exonerated Libby of the crimes for which he was charged. Imagine if Cheney had taken the stand and said, “I declassified Valerie Plame’s identity an ordered Libby to betray her to the media!” That might get Libby off the hook for an IIPA violation, but he was charged with lying to the feds, perjury, and obstruction of justice, and Cheney’s statement makes him look even MORE guilty of those crimes, not less.

              • Leen says:

                Is this where the dates of when Cheney was given the pass to declassify come in? What a bunch of hogwash….throw these fucking traitors in jail. I try to control my blue collar peasant self, but it’s difficult when such blatant and serious crimes have been committed by this administration

                Enough!

              • Leen says:

                I remember hearing it reported on NPR that Bush had given Cheney the ability to “declassify”. They were backtracking fast covering their traitorous asses.

        • emptywheel says:

          Valerie and Joe may have said they expected Cheney to testify. I was sure he would not.

          Fitz did not call Cheney, perhaps because he expected Cheney would reinforce Libby’s lies, even while he might have revealed some of the information we want.

          Wells was going to call Cheney (he said). Mostly, he said it to use as a way to strip the jury of anyone who hated this Administration. Once a jury was seated, he coudl stop claiming he’d call Cheney.

          • FrankProbst says:

            Wells was going to call Cheney (he said). Mostly, he said it to use as a way to strip the jury of anyone who hated this Administration. Once a jury was seated, he coudl stop claiming he’d call Cheney.

            Yup. And I seem to recall Fitz saying early in the trial that he didn’t think the defense was actually going to call Cheney. It was just a way to try to stack the jury.

            But I think the whole episode reinforces just how good the case against Libby was argued. They beat greymail. They beat pixie-dust. And they did it with a jury that was pre-stacked against them. The Bush-appointed judge called the evidence against Libby “overwhelming”, and he even took the unusual step of calling bullshit on the President when the commutation came down.

  37. bmaz says:

    There was never a chance in hell that Cheney was going to testify. If Fitz had subpoenaed him, state secrets/enhanced graymail/Executive yad yada yada, or a pardon right on the spot, would have resulted to a point to where things went away. But Cheney was not going to testify. Period.

    • emptywheel says:

      And to add to that fact, Cheney would have either hurt Libby’s case, or incriminated himself. Now that would have been a sight–the Vice President pleading the Fifth.

      • bmaz says:

        He would have had to. Wells could control direct, but cross is wide open as long as it is even remotely relevant. I was actually surprised that Walton didn’t blow up more than he did at Wells over this; because it was an open fraud on the court from the get go.

        • emptywheel says:

          I think Reggie decided to let things slide to prevent an appeal and to try to make the wingnut hordes believe Libby got a fair shake. I’m not sure I agree with that decision, and it certainly didn’t win over the wingnut hordes who were busy calling Reggie with death threats (he got an ulcer during this trial). But it may have been a smart decision. Made me crazy watching the trial, though.

          • bmaz says:

            No, he did the right thing. Remarkable restraint to do so though. I wonder if he woodshedded Wells in chambers and off the record; there is a fair chance he did.

  38. Mary says:

    Whether Cheney was called or not, the jury and anyone paying cursory attention to case (although not the dedicated Plameologists) all pretty much had the same reaction after the trial. Cheney, Armitage, Fleischer, Rove – there seemed to be a cast of much more nefarious characters than Libby and as several of the jurors mentioned, where were charges against them? Where were they in the courtroom? There are lots of detail and minutiae reasons to support what happened, but, for better or worse, the sense left with most people was of justice undone.

    I tend to think that the biggest Congressional failing was Schumer’s push to let Comey inhouse the investigation (like Schumer’s push for Mukasey) and the ultimate rollover by Congress to allow the matter to be inhoused. They should have either gone forward with whaty they were discussion on re-instating independent counsel rules and having one appointed (even frickin Joe Lieberman was pushing for that), or conducting their own investigation (yes, they might run into the problems which hung over Walsh in his Iran/Contra investigation, but without an independent counsel like Walsh, what are you going to do?)

    Prior to the Bush administration debacle, I have never been very political and I’m not very criminal litigation oriented by interest or practice, so you could have asked me about the staffing of DOJ years back and I couldn’t have given you a clue. Comey originally stood out to me, not because he practiced in Richmond too, but rather that he is the guy who made the announcement that they were going to inhouse the Plame investigation.

    It made me furious at the time, so there’s some bias on my part. I had zilch belief that could be pulled off, with limitations on what the lawyer could look into, no reporting requirements to Congress (Fitzgerald made that clear at the very beginning in his appointment presser, that he wouldn’t be giving Congress a report) and a chain of command situation where the inhouse guy was subject to whatever constraints got put in his way.

    So I was angry and had no faith that the investigation would accomplish anything. And things drug on and on. Then, I’m driving and Fitzgerald’s presser on the Libby indictment comes on NPR and I was pretty open-mouthed. It was still on by the time I got home and I flipped on tv to see the very end. It was such a welldone, honest, professional presser that I kind of got a trace of religion.

    Later, I found FDL (which had been in process for some time already) and there were people who really thought highly of Fitzgerald and had a lot of faith (and in Comey, to whose list I had added Higazy and Padilla and later Arar, so I didn’t quite buy in there) and it was contagious. Fitzgerald seemed to be really digging in and he was doing a very professional job imo.

    But all the claims of plenary grants to Fitzgerald to do whatever he wanted just weren’t correct, although they were made with frequency. Whoever he did or did not talk to and whatever he did or did not find, Fitzgerald could not go outside his mandate. That mandate was specifically the Plame leak (not NIE leaks, not planting propaganda, not the Niger disinformation campaign etc.) and acts of obstruction, perjury, etc. relating directly to that leak.

    So there he was hamstrung initially. And in the Libby case, Libby’s lawyers filed the motion that kept being decried as silly (to have him removed) but which served the very clean and clear purpose of locking in that mandate. It ended up with Fitzgerald filing pleadings agreeing to the narrowness of the mandate in order to preserve his post.

    OTOH, and don’t ask me how he did it – Fitzgerald was able to get into the open judicial record, sideways, the information from his WH interviews that Bush himself authorized the NIE leak. IMO, that shows he was acting in good faith and coming close to pulling off the impossible. There were all kinds of ways for him to proceed without that info ever getting out, but he got it out. I think there were some long, heated arguments to get to that result, as evidenced by the very late night release on Pacer.

    But his authority was always only that given to him by his “bosses” within the Dept. That was locked in with the principal officer decision and Fitzgerald himself, in his responses to Congress, has noted two things (which, imo, lead to a third thing as well) that should have had follow up imo, especially with the other investigations like the USAtty investigations relying on a similar process. One point he has made is that his authority, his mandate, was limited to ONLY those matters from which Ashcroft directly recused. Unlike a normal prosecution investigation, he could NOT follow up on other things he found. His other point was that, as an inhouse appointment, even that authority and mandate were subject to being revised and modified at any time, with or without cause.

    The point he has not made, but which is a direct consequence, is that there is no mechanism for Congress to even find out about any revisions or modifications of the original authority. At least the outside counsel regulations (to the extent anyone in DOJ bothers to follow regulations anymore, what with the AG and President being able to summon up OLC opinions insulating them from having to do such things if they interfere with the ability to cover up WH crimes) provided that if authority was yanked back or there was a dispute by the outside counsel and AG and the AG overrode outside counsel’s decision, that override had to be reported to Congress. Not so with an inhouse appointment.

    This was, however, the choice of Congress, THEIR choice, led by Schumer. I still think it would clear some decks if Congress were to ask a few things like:

    1. Was the designation to Margolis ever called back and if so, to whom (McNulty?)
    2. Was there any change or revision in your mandate? (He probably won’t be able to go into details as to what changed if DOJ blocks, but there’s no reason why he can’t give a yeah or nay on any changes).
    3. Provide a copy of the letter issued to Rove.
    4. Did you make referrals of other matters that were revealed in your investigations (such as the Presidential Records Act and Hatch Act violations or NSA violations) that were outside your mandate. (He probably won’t be able to provide information on what he referred, but he can at least acknowledge that he did or did not make referrals and if he didn’t, that does raise some issues)?
    5. Have other inhouse counsel been appointed at DOJ to follow up on any of your referrals?

    I don’t think it is correct to say Fitzgerald was out of his league. But his “league” in this particular case consisted of one team only, with the umpire being the coach of that team as well. So you can divvy them up shirts and skins, but if the umpire makes all the calls and sets the practices up under rules that all favor just one team and can bench anyone he wants whenver he wants – then you’ve got a problem.

    The main thing that makes me upset over Fitzgerald has nothing to do with what he was able to pull off and his conduct of the case. It’s that he offered up the pretense that we would be able to rely on what he was going to do and that justice would be done. Maybe he originally believed that – he certainly sold it during his pressers with an air of reliability and truthfulness. But if he has not come to another conclusion, then you have to question his acumen. And if he has come to another conclusion, it isn’t fair to keep up the pretense.

  39. earlofhuntingdon says:

    I think they’ve already skipped the usual intermediate steps, beatification, etc., and gone right to sainthood: St. Timothy the Pompous.

    The press is the new medieval church, espousing its catechism of conformity, excommunicating the heretical ”left”, elevating themselves to the nobility and their king to godliness, demanding tax relief while dinging the poor for their tithes, yet closing the cathedral doors to their cries.

    Who will assume the mantle of archbishop in St. Timothy’s stead? How about a journalist, or one of those lowly friars from the chapel blogs?

  40. AmosAnan says:

    This is a pretty “weak tea” dismissal of John Dean’s points regarding the prosecutorial efforts of Patrick Fitzgerald. I don’t remember if you were a part of the FDL teenybopper adoration of Fitzgerald with oohs and aahs over his butt and comments prefaced with “my future husband” but let’s face it, Fitzgerald has taken treason in the White House and made it into a case about fibbing, which barely caused a ripple in the nation when even that “fibbing” was excused.

    I’ve no doubt Dean can make absurd conjectures. I remember when he wrote that the Wilsons should sue the Bush group, comparing the Wilson’s White House situation to the one the Nixon White House faced with a civil suit regarding its illegal activities. But the Dean era had judges like John Sirica, not bird flipping, duck hunt invitees like Antonin Scalia. One of the early acts by the Bush group was to kill the civil suit by the original Iran hostages. That was when Iran was our unspoken buddy in our attempts to get Bin Laden. But then the Bush people didn’t actually want to get Bin Laden because then their basis for a phony war and dictatorial power would have been largely removed. So Bin Laden runs free and Iran is our new oil rich enemy. But I’m digressing.

    Fitzgerald has effectively hidden much of the evidence he collected. That’s evidence of possible crimes in the very highest reaches of America’s government. Fitzgerald has hidden that. I repeat. Fitzgerald has hidden that and he’s still playing games on keeping that information hidden. You’ve made some inferences based on the evidence Fitzgerald has allowed out but that’s a joke considering the circumstances of treason in the White House. And forgive me if it may not be treason because Bush waved his hand and made his own treason not treason. If Fitzgerald had made some speech about that to the public when talking about throwing sand around, maybe I could have some respect for him. I guess I should be a butt man to see something of value in Fitzgerald.

    You also make the point that Fitzgerald didn’t have a witness above reproach to use to provide testimony of crimes in the highest places. That’s another joke, right? We’re talking about prosecutors here. These are people that have no problem getting drugged out jail house snitches to provide evidence to jail innocent people for decades, with the prosecutor’s happiest support. Almost never is a Jesus Christ present to provide evidence of wrong doing. But Fitzgerald refused to put the question to a jury of who, under the circumstances, was more believable, one possible liar or another. He went for the fibbing case that kept the wrong doing secret. He got his meaningless win and America got its horrific loss.

    Thanks Pat. If ever I see your butt the only inspiration I’ll get is to kick it.

    • bmaz says:

      Interesting rant; some of it even valid. Much, however, is not, and betrays a serious misunderstanding of a federal prosecutor’s power and prerogative.

    • timbo says:

      Reluctant as I am to agree with you about Fitzgerald, I’m going to have to agree with you. I was able to figure out Armitage’s roll by doing a relationship chart and concentrating on it for two hours. Someone who is much, much more experienced with prosecuting perjury and conspiracy should have spotted Armitage’s roll before the “revelations” over Woodward’s conversations with Armitage…and teased it out.

      That having been said, I’m not sure what happened. Almost certainly Fitzgerald considered Bush’s instant declassification to be legal and a matter that only Congress in a political investigation (Hearings) could Constitutionally intervene.

      Now where Dean really misses on all this is where Congress failed to act with regard to Libby’s commutation. Had they chosen to act at that instant…to open hearing specifically into possible abuses of Presidential powers by the White House to cover up treasonous behaviour, they probably would have made quick headway. The public, at that time, was likely to get behind figuring out >why

      Now, what we’re seeing at the moment is simply various coalitions (and factions?) in the Democratic party trying to get through the Presidential election with a victory…that they almost certainly would have had had they simply impeached the bastards on the evidence…and trying to keep the right and the left of the party focussed on each of their individual agendas…without delivering either. Oh, there will be some entertaining hearings this summer for sure. That pleases the credulous on the left and weakens the Republicans in the fall. But, as someone pointed out…it’s like the Fall of the Third Republic…we’ve got incompetent and corrupt politicians, incompetent and corrupt military officers, and an almost…maybe there is some hope left in it somewhere…co-opted hack judiciary.

      In other words, the three branches are cooperating in not giving us good government, nor safety, nor efficiency, nor legality under the Constitution, Constitutionally valid laws, etc, at the moment. It is a plutocracy that is in place and growing…and each succeeding election in which this is permitted to continue means more danger for our country…not the easily co-opted type of danger, like “terrorist weapons of mass destruction”, no, it is the insidious rotting of a political system that we are witnessing.

      Perhaps Obama and his team can stop some of the rot…but, really, it is the U.S. Congress and the citizen-voter that must correct course…and the sooner, the better…for every human being on this planet. Certainly if McCain gets in and the Democrats continue to shill along with Pelosi’s team running things on the Dem side then, well, if you think America’s standing in the world is bad at the moment…imaging four or eight more years of a McCain administration full of Bush appointees throughout the Executive, Judicial, and military. It won’t be a pretty picture. In other words, the best thing that San Francisco could do for the nation is to oust Pelosi.

      It is a testiment to how bad things are politically in this nation that Pelosi does not have serious challengers to her in SF for the upcoming election. I’m not religious but do pray that someone will step forward and give her a scary, pro-impeachment challenger to have a local referendum on her nationally shameful refusal to permit impeachment of the Republican scum that have tarnished this nation…and simultaneously provide opportunistic 2nd stringers to run our Congress…that’s the Dem side…the GOP side is 3rd stringers, most of ‘em.

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