Mukasey to SJC: Investigation of Rove’s Involvement in Siegelman Should Take Place … Somewhere Else

There has been some misunderstanding about Karl Rove’s refusal to show up to testify before HJC tomorrow. While Luskin referred to executive privilege to justify Rove’s refusal to appear tomorrow,

Accordingly, Mr. Rove will respectfully decline to appear before the Subcommittee on July 10 on the grounds that Executive Privilege confers upon him immunity from process in response to a subpoena directed to this subject.

And though Luskin parses wildly to pretend that the subject of this hearing–Siegelman’s prosecution and other selective prosecutions–is identical to the subject on which Rove was subpoenaed to testify before the Senate Judiciary Committee and for which Bush did invoke executive privilege–the firing of the nine US Attorneys.

Mr. Rove is simply not free to accede to the Committee’s view and take a position inconsistent with that asserted by the White House in the litigation [about the subpoenas regarding the US purge].

No one has ever asserted that Bush was invoking executive privilege with regards to this appearance by Rove. In fact, Rove himself, back in May, not only admitted that Bush had not yet done so but implied that Bush would have to do so in this case (and, he suggested, Bush would "probably" do so–though that hasn’t happened yet).

Rove: Congress–the House Judiciary Committee wants to be able to call Presidential Aides on its whim up to testify, violating the separation of powers. Executive Privilege has been asserted by the White House in a similar instance in the Senate. It’ll be, probably be asserted very shortly in the House. [my emphasis]

But no one has asserted that Bush has invoked executive privilege in this case. The sole legal rationale Rove has given for not showing up, even in the absence of executive privilege being invoked, is a memo that Steven Bradbury wrote that may or may not apply to this case. For example, that memo only applies if Rove is willing to claim that politicizing prosecutions was part of his official duties as Senior Advisor to Bush. Suffice it to say that not even Mr. Unitary Executive thought that memo was sufficient basis for blowing off HJC, and that on a topic (rationalizing torture) that probably would be considered among the official duties of OVP’s counsel in this Administration.

As of right now, the White House has declined to give Rove real legal protections for blowing off HJC tomorrow. Perhaps they’ll give him a last minute reprieve and invoke executive privilege in the next 24 hours. But as of right now, someone–either in the White House or DOJ, which would have to buy off on any invocation of executive privilege–has chosen not to do so.

Which is why I find this exchange from today’s Senate Judiciary hearing with Michael Mukasey so interesting. Chuck Schumer (who I suspect is finally as sorry as the rest of us have been for months that he foisted Mukasey onto the American people) is asking Mukasey about the progress of the Office of Professional Responsibility investigation into the Siegelman prosecution.

Schumer: Mukasey, at your confirmation hearing I told you how troubled I was about the allegations of politicization in some of the Departments prosecutions. We talked about hiring, but these are prosecutions. In particular, I urged you to get to the bottom of deeply disturbing allegations about the case of Don Siegelman, the former governor of Alabama. I pointed out at time, although Siegelman was convicted of several counts, witnesses have credibly contended that his case was politically motivated and selectively prosecuted. Some of the specific allegations include, that Karl Rove asked Jill Simpson, a lifelong Republican and practicing lawyer in Alabama to try and take  pictures of Siegelman cheating on his wife or in compromising positions, that Rove personally contacted DOJ and pushed for a second prosecution of Don Siegelman, after a federal judge dismissed the first case against him., Karl Rove has refused to appear before Congress to testify under oath about his involvement in the Siegelman case. When I asked you take a thorough and personal look at that case you were reluctant to look at it, you said the case was on appeal. And I must say, that it’s time you get to bottom of this because there have been some startling new developments in the case since. First, in a highly unusual decision the 11th circuit court released Siegelman on bail, finding that, quote, there was a substantial question of law or fact likely to result in a reversal. Not only that, but in connection with that appeal, 54 state AGs–Democrats and Republicans–filed a brief supporting the appeal. That’s an astonishing bi-partisan act, knowing that prosecutors are very reluctant to take issue once a jury has convicted somebody, from the Justice Department.  I think it underscores the flimsiness of case and the concern about selective prosecution. And I have to tell you, nothing has troubled me, I think,  more than this. It’s like–if the allegations are true–it’s like making Justice Department like the justice department in a banana republic. You don’t like someone, you go after them, you prosecute them on flimsy evidence. It’s really troubling, so I want to ask you some questions about this because I am deeply troubled and it is the kind of thing that you–when you testified before us–would want to get the bottom of and eliminate even the appearance that something like this happened. So first, there is in fact an OPR investigation underway in the Siegelman case, is that correct? Do you know when it began?

Mukasey: I don’t know.

Schumer: Could you find out for us? Do you know when it will be complete or how far along it is?

Mukasey: I meet regularly with head of OPR, I don’t want to get into those discussions. Obviously they’re working on it as they are on other things, such as the joint OIG investigation. And I have no reason to believe anyone’s slow-rolling that or dragging their…

Schumer tries to get Mukasey to commit to making the results of the OPR investigation public. But then–after Muaksey refused to commit to make the report public and an enraged Schumer responded that such a response called into question our judiciary system–Mukasey suggested there were other means to investigate what happened in the Siegelman case (the implication being that those other means would permit a public accountability).

Schumer: Will you make the OPR findings public when the investigation is complete–I know you had a general discussion with Senator Kohl?

Mukasey: Thatdepends on what they are and I, for the same reasons as concerned my discussion with Senator Kohl, the same applies to this. I don’t know in advance what OPR is going to find.

Schumer: Don’t you think–either way, no matter what they find–given the seriousness of these allegations, calling into question the very fundamentals of neither fear nor favor before the law, that these should be made public. If they say there’s nothing wrong, I’d want to know, if they say there’s something wrong, I’d want to know. What would be a reason not to make this public.

Mukasey: I think there are various avenues open for exploring those allegations, including exploring their source and having testimony on the subject, OPR is not the only avenue. [my emphasis]

And then, when Schumer presses on the need to know about Rove’s role in the prosecution, Mukasey specifically says–again–that there are other means for investigating Rove’s role in the matter.

Schumer: That’s not what we’re discussing here. I’m asking that, if the allegations are true, is there any reason not to make it public?

Mukasey: If there’s interference with the course of a case, that’s a matter of a whole different …

Schumer: Well how about if Karl Rove did suggest a second prosecution for Siegelman, after the first?

Mukasey: That’s the kind of "if" that depends on the underlying evidence.

Schumer: Well, why should that not be made public. regardless? Whatever the underlying evidence is, he may have come across some new fact. 

Mukasey: He may indeed.

Schumer: Okay, but then why shouldn’t that be made public. You’re not giving me a very good reason, sir.  

Mukasey: I don’t see publicizing the source of an allegation if the allegation turns out to be true.

Schumer: Let me ask you one more question, with the Chair’s indulgence. Should Karl Rove be interviewed in this case?

Mukasey: That is a matter for OPR to decide.

Schumer: What do you think? You’re the ultimate authority here.

Mukasey: I’m not the ultimate authority here.  I have not supplanted OPR and I don’t intend to. I’ll look at their report and if it’s in any way deficient…

Schumer: You don’t think that given the allegations that have been made, serious allegations, that have gotten scores of Democratic and Republican attorney generals to ask that this case be re-examined, that Karl Rove should maybe not be interviewed here?

Mukasey: I think there are avenues for conducting examinations other than OPR investigation. [my emphasis]

Twice today, when Schumer asked Mukasey about whether there would be a public accounting of the Siegelman investigation, Mukasey said there were other avenues for conducting an investigation. Once, Mukasey’s reference to "other avenues" of investigation pertained specifically to Rove.

Call me crazy, but as of now, there is no IG investigation (which would have a public report) into Rove’s role in the Siegelman prosecution. A criminal investigation would only have public results if Rove were indicted. What other avenues for investigation are there–that promise a public accounting of Rove’s role in Siegelman’s prosecution?

I can think of one: Congress.

Now I don’t know if Mukasey intended to suggest to Congress that it was the proper forum to investigate Rove’s persecution of Governor Siegelman. Hell, given the crap Mukasey spewed today, I don’t even know that he sincerely cares whether Karl Rove took out a political opponent using our judicial system.

But given the fact that, for some reason, Rove has not yet gotten the executive privilege he expected, and given the fact that the Attorney General keeps insisting there are other means of finding out about Rove’s role in the Siegelman prosecution, someone ought to clarify what Mukasey meant. Because, at the very least, it seems to present a really good case to pressure Mukasey for prosecuting Rove for contempt.

Update: I’ve done a true transcription (all errors are mine) of this exchange. A few things stand out that I missed before: Mukasey clearly says "having testimony on the subject" is one way to examine the politicization of this. Also, Mukasey seems to be implying that Rove’s role was to bring a new allegation to PIN, and that, because the allegation may have been correct, Mukasey isn’t much bothered that it came from a top Administration advisor. I find this really interesting–I’m pretty sure this is how they launched their investigation into Fieger here in MI, and it’s also how they got Catherine Willey’s testimony in front of Ken Starr.

But of course, if Rove was bringing new allegations to PIN, then it surely wasn’t part of his official duties and therefore he has no grounds to blow off HJC tomorrow. 

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  1. looseheadprop says:

    Because, at the very least, it seems to present a really good case to pressure Mukasey for prosecuting Rove for contempt.

    Aye Yep

  2. PJEvans says:

    Because Congress is so eager to do its constitutional duty, right?

    (pitchfork: check ….)

  3. BayStateLibrul says:

    Yes. If the HJC wants to duck, they can say that Bates made us do it…
    Btw, when will Bates deliver?

  4. GeorgeSimian says:

    I watched this part of the testimony today. I think it was pretty clear that Mukasey was simply ducking his responsibility in pursuing Rove. The idea that there are other avenues shouldn’t take the place of his responsibility, even if there are other avenues.

    He said that Rove hadn’t been questioned, and that there wasn’t any reason to. That is an astonishing thing for the AG to say.

  5. Jim Clausen says:

    Well Bmaz,

    The day that our privacy was sacrificed on the alter of security has arrived.
    I mourn for our Constitution and the Rule Of Law. Claus

      • Jim Clausen says:

        High Ground,
        We dodged tornadoes(60 Miles), floods(8 miles) and the ICE Raid on Postville(18 Miles). I am waiting for the locusts; oops they are the last 7 years of Thuglican Rule.

  6. skdadl says:

    Was Mukasey trying to sound like Fitzgerald — ie, to appropriate the Fitzgeraldian mantle — with those two sly “other avenues”? I honestly couldn’t tell whether he was being sly (that way) or not.

    Schumer certainly looked and sounded impatient and angry, and at the end he sounded just like my mother when she would say, “skdadl, I am so disappointed in you.” He did say he was disappointed. I’m not sure that will work on Mukasey the way it did on me.

    • GeorgeSimian says:

      I thought he was a little more than disappointed and he should have said so.

      I didn’t see the entire testimony, but what I saw was easily comparable to the Gonzo testimony that had everyone calling for impeachment. Mukasey didn’t keep saying “I don’t know”, but he basically said it differently.

      • jayt says:

        what I saw was easily comparable to the Gonzo testimony that had everyone calling for impeachment. Mukasey didn’t keep saying “I don’t know”, but he basically said it differently.

        Abu tried to get away with saying he couldn’t remember, wasn’t involved, and various other tactics.

        Mukasey will look you right in the eye and tell you to go fuck yourself.

        • GeorgeSimian says:

          No, that’s more Addington’s deal. Mukasey says it is part of an investigation in progress, but he doesn’t know what the progress is, but has no reason to doubt that everyone is doing a great job. The funny (ha-fucking-ha) part is that he keeps passing the buck to departments that are under him, that he’s supposed to be in charge of. He’s trying to present the idea that the investigation is just like any other investigation and not in need of special attention.

          • skdadl says:

            That is a true summary of what I heard/watched — exactly his routine.

            I’m very glad to hear that Kennedy is back. When we first heard about his diagnosis, I signed one of those online messages of good wishes, and while I know that the response would be as machine-generated as my original message was, I did get a nice thank you back from the senator and his wife, and that to an obvious foreign address.

      • Teddy Partridge says:

        We have a right to be disappointed in Mukasey, but Schumer (and buddy Feinstein) are responsible for him. There’s a big difference, and until I hear Schumer say he’s accountable for making Mukasey AG, all his crocodile tears and disappointment don’t mean squat.

        • GeorgeSimian says:

          I don’t think he sees himself as responsible for Mukasey. I’m not sure I see it that way. Still, he should be more than “disappointed”.

  7. prostratedragon says:

    “Mukasey will look you right in the eye and tell you to go fuck yourself.”

    I ♥ NY.

    • skdadl says:

      Y’know, I wish he would speak so clearly. It would be refreshing to hear a simple statement of any kind from Mukasey.

      • jayt says:

        Y’know, I wish he would speak so clearly. It would be refreshing to hear a simple statement of any kind from Mukasey.

        I find it to be pretty simple. He’ll talk all around an issue, but in the end, he’ll have made quite clear that he’s not gonna do what he’s asked, and that anyone who doesn’t like that could kiss his ass – or not – because he really just doesn’t care.

  8. JimTheCynic says:

    Little Georgie has merely been waiting for The Big Green Light. Now that the House and Senate have granted him and The Big Dick carte blanche to spy on anyone they please, they don’t care what Congress does to try and investigate. Now, he will feel untouchable. Of course Unkle Karl will get “Executive Privledge” tonight. Or he’ll be pre-pardoned for all his actions while working for Little Georgie.

    There will be no investigations. They will not be allowed.

    • jayt says:

      You mean Rove can’t simply claim Executive Privilege? Does Rove know that?

      Well, he created “The Executive”, so of course he gets the privilege. /s

  9. SparklestheIguana says:

    The only other avenue I can think of to investigate Rove would be a public, televised waterboarding.

  10. chisholm1 says:

    “I don’t even know that he sincerely cares whether Karl Rove took out a political opponent using our judicial system.”

    With all due respect — is this a joke? Of course he doesn’t give a shit. People — game over, on all of these things. Plame, Siegelman, Gitmo, eavesdropping, the USAs, yadda. Everything. All the parsing, all the trying to make sense of what’s going on behind the firewall is pointless. Mukasey isn’t going to give up a single thing and the Democrats aren’t going to force the issue. They haven’t yet — why on earth would anyone think things will change in the next several months?

    The only hope for a return to the rule of law — and that’s what this is about, period — is an Obama victory and the nomination of a non-criminal AG, followed by a thorough cleansing of the DOJ. And that emphatically includes the lifers. And even then there’s a good chance justice will be ignored. You can bet the farm that Obama will err on the side of “forgiving” and “moving on,” should Bush crimes come to light.

    I think there’s a supposition out there that the country can recover should Obama win. I am not so sure that the blows aren’t fatal.

  11. BargainCountertenor says:

    Marcy,

    It’s not like this is the first time Unka Karl has used the Federal Judiciary to take out a political opponent. He did it in Texas, when he managed Goodhair Perry’s campaign for Ag Commissioner. He used a pet FBI special agent (Greg Rampton) to investigate Texas-Federal (a joint USDA/TxDoAg outfit) with the intent of getting Jim Hightower. He missed Hightower, but did take out a couple of JH’s deputies. The whole mess was purely political — see Chapter 5 of Bush’s Brain for the details.

    He got away with it then, I’m sure he expects to get away with it now. Isn’t abuse of the legal system a crime? Barratry or some such thing?

    BC

  12. earlofhuntingdon says:

    It couldn’t be that former judge Mukasey is telling Congress to do its job, could it? That would be a bit of snark from an Attorney General who has committed not to enforce Congressional subpoenas. But frankly, that’s not much different that the hypocritical shenanigans Specter or Obama have treated us to recently.

    Specter yesterday lambasted the FISA amendments, then cast votes that would lead to their prompt adoption. Obama won public support for his candidacy by going out on a limb to support fellow Senator Chris Dodd’s earlier fight against FISA. He now thinks the liberal vote is “in the bag”, so he consented to this “compromise” legislation. Not slow on the theatrical uptake, he then showed up to cast a ceremonial vote against that legislation, knowing it would have no effect in preventing its passage.

    Forgive me for thinking that reports of the demise of “politics as usual” were premature.

    • emptywheel says:

      Actually, at one point, Mukasey pushed back against questions about what DOJ was doing in the wake of Boumediene by pointing out that Congress passed the DTA which was declared unconstitutional.

      You’d almost think he was opposed to Congress passing unconstitutional bills, but given today’s events, you’d be wrong.

  13. rapt says:

    As I was about to respond to a question Marcy asked in the NEXT post,

    Mukasey must protect Rove, Bush, Cheney because that is what he was hired to do, under threat of extreme pain up to and including death. Perhaps Schumer received a similar threat? This is not a radical concept in this current world where inconvenient people disappear regularly.

    Now when he said repeatedly that “there are other means of investigating this”, it could well have meant, “It is out of my hands, as any dope could deduce from the circumstances of my appointment, but you, Congress have the power to do it yourselves.”

  14. Mary says:

    I think Schumer was a theater wannabe and is just milking a moment. He’s a sharp guy, a politico who has been around forever, from a State that sometimes functions like a sovereign nation (not that there’s anything wrong with that) and he knows and has worked both sides of the political aisle, putting the ooze in Schmooze.

    He isn’t disappointed in Mukasey – he knew this is where things would end up. It’s just some really good theater for him, to adopt a pretense of disgust, disappointment and disdain that he doesn’t really feel, but will playact at to keep his audience in the mood.

  15. Mary says:

    31 – the undead are pretty hard, as a group, to finish off. Zombies, Werewolves, Vampires, Politicsasusuals …

    • earlofhuntingdon says:

      If we could only find the boxes of earth the Barnacle has hidden for his daytime rest. We could sprinkle them with holy water and fragments of copies of the Constitution. He might then have to return to the oil-soaked lands of Wyoming for a fresh supply. My only concern is the rumor that he’s learned to walk about in daytime, though he’s never seen through the tinted armor of his motorcade windows. My guess is that they’re for show, that he hovers alongside them, masquerading as the smoke from their tailpipes.

  16. rwcole says:

    I’m getting sick of these dumbshit battles. If congress is serious and ready to throw the Fuckhead in jail- then by all means go after it- but if they are just fuckin around to get airtime and attention in an election year and have no stomach for going for the win- then fuck em and the horses they rode in on.

  17. dude says:

    To those who noted Schumer seemed upset with Mukasey, I would remind them Schumer and Feinstein recommended this man for appointment. Many of us here were against this recommendation, and it did not matter to either Senator.

    I don’t think either one of them is to be forgiven or indulged. They have Mukasey because they wanted him.

  18. bobschacht says:

    What other avenues for investigation are there–that promise a public accounting of Rove’s role in Siegelman’s prosecution?

    I can think of one: Congress.

    I can think of another one, without first reading all the comments: Special Counsel? One with Congressional insistence on independence?

    Bob in HI

  19. victoria2dc says:

    Mukasey: I think there are avenues for conducting examinations other than OPR investigation. [my emphasis]

    snark—— Sounds to me like he’s giving them a hint that impeachment trumps executive privilege and they should move to start hearings right away!

    In this case, does it?