Nixon Sez: Karl Rove Must Testify

As I explained in this post, Judge Bates has issued a ruling in the House’s suit to force Harriet Miers and Josh Bolten to respond to the House Judiciary Committee subpoenas with regards to the US Attorney firings.

With regards to the Miers and Bolten subpoena, Bates emphasizes, his ruling is fairly narrow, in that he doesn’t resolve the question of whether or not the White House was right to invoke executive privilege.

It is important to note that the decision today is very limited. To be sure, most of this lengthy opinion addresses, and ultimately rejects, the Executive’s several reasons why the Court should not entertain the Committee’s lawsuit, but on the merits of the Committee’s present claims the Court only resolves, and again rejects, the claim by the Executive to absolute immunity from compelled congressional process for senior presidential aides. The specific claims of executive privilege that Ms. Miers and Mr. Bolten may assert are not addressed — and the Court expresses no view on such claims.

Basically, then, his ruling requires Harriet Miers to show up before the House Judiciary Committee and invoke executive privilege on a question by question basis. And it requires Josh Bolten (who was subpoenaed to turn over a bunch of documents pertaining to the US Attorney firing), to turn over any non-privileged documents, and provide a description for anything not turned over and the basis for the claim of privilege. In other words, even assuming the White House accepts this ruling (I expect them to at least try to appeal it), the White House and HJC are still bound to get in an argument over whether or not the White House’s claim of privilege outweighs HJC’s claim to need the information to conduct its oversight duties.

So with respect to Miers and Bolten, this decision is narrow and somewhat inconclusive.

But with respect to Rove, this decision makes it very clear that Rove must show up to testify–and (unless the White House invokes executive privilege with respect to the HJC subpoena of Rove, which they haven’t done) he must answer all questions. That’s because the sole basis the White House gave to justify Rove blowing off HJC’s subpoena was "absolute immunity"–the White House did not invoke executive privilege with regards to this subpoena.

Here’s what Bates had to say about the White House’s unprecedented claim to absolute immunity.

Indeed, the aspect of this lawsuit that is unprecedented is the notion that Ms. Miers is absolutely immune from compelled congressional process. The Supreme Court has reserved absolute immunity for very narrow circumstances, involving the President’s personal exposure to suits for money damages based on his official conduct or concerning matters of national security or foreign affairs. The Executive’s current claim of absolute immunity from compelled congressional process for senior presidential aides is without any support in the case law. The fallacy of that claim was presaged in United States v. Nixon itself (id. at 706):

neither the doctrine of separation of powers, nor the need for confidentiality of high level communications, without more, can sustain an absolute, unqualified Presidential privilege of immunity from judicial [or congressional] process under all circumstances. [my emphasis]

In other words, Bates says, the Nixon decision rules out precisely this kind of expansive claim of immunity–rules it out for the President, much less a political advisor who got fired by the President a year earlier. Which means, pending any appeal of this ruling, Rove is basically stripped of any excuse not to testify–and testify fully. It’s possible that the White House will try to protect Rove by invoking executive privilege (though that would be a transparently weak claim on its face, since they haven’t invoked privilege yet). Except for two things: Rove has been blabbing about the subpoenaed topics for six months on teevee, meaning Bush can’t claim that this stuff is secret. And, Bush doesn’t want to get close to Rove’s efforts to fire prosecutors who indict Republicans. Whereas what Harriet will testify to, if and when she does testify, will be arguably legal, the stuff Rove will be asked about includes gross violations of the law. And Bush doesn’t want to touch that, not if he can help it.

So this ruling is actually more important as it relates to Rove’s testimony than as it relates to Miers. Because right now, based on the precedent of US v. Nixon, Rove will have to answer any question HJC asks.

Update: Since some are asking, here’s Bates’ order.  He says nothing about a stay pending appeal. Also note, he calls a status conference on August 27, at which point I guess he figures we’ll all know whether Bush is going to appeal or whether we should move onto the fight over whether the White House privilege claim outweighs the House’s claim to need the testimony.

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  1. AZ Matt says:

    EW,

    Any guess what Mukasey in DOJ will think of this, or how it might effect DOJ decisions concerning contempt of Congress charges?

    • emptywheel says:

      I jsut read the order. He’s called a status hearing for August 27, so I expect there will be some chess playing for the next four weeks during recess–but there would have been anyway.

      I actually have my doubts about whether the Administration is going to push an appeal that far–Bates’ ruling pertains solely to the absolute immunity claim. SCOTUS woudl have to overturn US v Nixon to overrule Bates’ ruling, I think, and I don’t think they’re going to want to do that. Article III has been thumping Article II of late, and I don’t expect that to change with this issue.

      • rwcole says:

        Well they’d probably losed, but if all they are interested in is running out the clock, what have they got to lose?

  2. DefendOurConstitution says:

    None of them will appear (not even Rove) as long as appeal is in process. What’s Conyers going to do? Send them another sternly worded letter? (I am sure that the subjects of ruling and Rove will quake in their pants for about a half a second before they break out in laughter.)

  3. AZ Matt says:

    Concern Troll Lamar Smith sez:

    “Unfortunately, today’s victory may be short-lived,” Smith said in a statement. ‘If the administration appeals the ruling, our congressional prerogatives will once again be put at risk.”

  4. LS says:

    Rawstory has developing story on DOJ hiring scandal…Raw says..”Absolute power, No responsibility..”

    Should be entertaining.

  5. AZ Matt says:

    I have to wonder if the DOJ intership and Goodling reports caught Bates’s attention or played any part in his ruling.

  6. wwiii says:

    Thus, the Committee filed this suit to
    vindicate both its right to the information that is the subject of the subpoena and its institutional
    prerogative to compel compliance with its subpoenas. A harm to either interest satisfies the
    injury-in-fact standing requirement. Clear judicial precedent, along with persuasive reasoning in
    OLC opinions, establishes that the Committee has standing to pursue this action and, moreover,
    that this type of dispute is justiciable in federal court.

    From p. 41 of the decision.

    Seems to me this says not only that the Committee has a right to issue its subpoenas in this matter, but also has a clear right to have them enforced. I would think that so long as this decision stands it is game, set and match in terms of Mukasey’s discretion in enforcing the subpoenas.

  7. MsAnnaNOLA says:

    Can’t Rove invoke the 5th amendment against self incrimination to avoid answering questions?

    • DeadLast says:

      That would make for some good sound-bytes on Fox News — “Karl Rove Pleads the 5th to avoid incriminating himself in Presidential scandals!” He probably won’t plead the 5th because he actually prefers lying.

      • perris says:

        He probably won’t plead the 5th because he actually prefers lying.

        I do honestly believe he is afraid of lying under oath, I do not think he is a “good liar”, I think he will not be able to keep track of what he is saying and he knows it, he is gonna have to tell the truth and he will avoid it with every stitch of his being

        • perris says:

          I do honestly believe he is afraid of lying under oath, I do not think he is a “good liar”,

          fitz caught him time and again and rove knows this, he does not want to testify on the record, under oath, he knows he will be forced to tell the truth or invoke his 5th amendment

  8. perris says:

    So this ruling is actually more important as it relates to Rove’s testimony than as it relates to Miers

    I am not sure I agree, though we will surely gather more information from rove over meirs, never the less it is VERY important we maintain the protocol that a person MUST appear to invoke any privilege they think they enjoy

      • jayt says:

        Any guess what Mukasey in DOJ will think of this, or how it might effect DOJ decisions concerning contempt of Congress charges?

        fast-forward to early September, 2008.

        Pat Leahy: “Genral Mukasey, given Judge Bates’ decision with regard to the issue of contempt of Congress charges involving Harriet Miers and Joshua Bolten, do you now feel that is appropriate to bring criminal charges against those two defendants?”

        Mukasey – “I’m sorry, Senator, I haven’t read that decision yet.”

      • jayt says:

        That’s Dr. Accountability, you know.

        I rarely use my PhD-earned title

        And here I sit with a lowly J.D. *s*

        I like to refer to myself as a “Doctor of Inane Letters”.

        h/t H.S. Thompson

  9. danps says:

    Hi Marcy. I’ve only had time to skim everything – wasn’t this decision expected in late August, and does it seem to have the kind of narrow scope you say Bates favors in his rulings?

    • emptywheel says:

      It was expected in August–there was no reason to think it’d be late August and I’ve always said August.

      That said, this is narrow, insofar as Bates’ decision is limited to the absolute immunity claim. But not a technical out like I expected him to use. It is FAR more friendly to the HJC position than I imagined it would be.

  10. perris says:

    I pointed out on the previous thread, I believe the only real reason bates sided with congress is that bates believes obama will be the next president and does not want to give this power to a democrat

    I think he knows this can be appealed until the election is decided and then the decisision will change according to those results

    • skdadl says:

      Call me naive, but I still think that even conservatively inclined judges know when they’ve hit a basic principle (ok, not every single one of them, but …), and Nixon would be one of those. From what I’ve read, Bates believes what he wrote.

      Well, either that’s true, or we’ve lost democracy imho. Still, serious judges are only the second-last defence against tyranny. The most basic defence is informed and engaged citizens, and I really admire and congratulate you all for breaking through, for convincing at least some people with power that the citizens are awake and watching and plenty smart.

  11. BayStateLibrul says:

    Question: Does this decision have any effect on Mukasey’s dodge
    to Waxman (Cheney’s chat)?

    • emptywheel says:

      I’m wondering that myself. Probably not–that’s just the realm of a dispute over whether the WH claim to privilege overweighs Congress’ claim to need the documents.

        • WilliamOckham says:

          As an amateur linguist, I beg to differ. Overweigh is, in fact, a word. It differs from outweigh in that it carries the sense of excessiveness and oppression. That connotation is probably appropriate in the context of the claim about Cheney’s interview with Fitzgerald.

  12. rosalind says:

    ot: via The Memory Hole (h/t boingboing), for those who enjoy reading between the lines, a blank copy of more than 400 forms used by the NSA.

    sample titles: “inadverdent disclosure agreement”, security oath”. available in 2 pdf files.

    link

  13. wwiii says:

    How to build a compelling case:

    . . .contrary to the Executive’s suggestion that the Committee did not
    make any serious counter-offers . . .the record reflects that it was the
    Executive and not the Committee that refused to budge from its initial bargaining position. Mr.
    Fielding himself stated that the Committee had written to him “on eight previous occasions, three
    of which letters contain or incorporate specific proposals involving terms for a possible
    agreement.” . . .The Executive, by contrast, apparently continued to adhere to
    its original proposal without modification.

    Ouch.

  14. PraedorAtrebates says:

    I don’t understand them even having a right to appeal here. This was decided, conclusively, in v Nixon. They would seek to retry a case that was clearly and unequivocally against the super privilege claim they are making again now?

    Honestly, on what basis can they appeal a decision that simply ruled AGAIN in a manner identical to the absolute ruling 30 years ago?

  15. brendanx says:

    That’s because the sole basis the White House gave to justify Rove blowing off HJC’s subpoena was “absolute immunity”–the White House did not invoke executive privilege with regards to this subpoena.

    Thanks for doing such a good job of hammering home this distinction. Not everyone has made it — here’s TPM, for example:

    But since Rove is claiming executive privilege, it is unlikely the DOJ will take any action — at least they certainly didn’t for Miers.

  16. AZ Matt says:

    I have been cruising through the decision(not that I know diddly squat about law) and Bates seems to slap down the DOJ all over the the place. I guess maybe too many Regent Law School grads have effected the quality of thought over at DOJ.

  17. mamayaga says:

    Pardon my ignorance, but does the subpoena die with the Congress, or does it carry over into the next Congress? If it survives, isn’t it to our advantage for the Bushies to play for time on this and many other matters until we have a DOJ in place that’s actually committed to enforcing the law?

    • emptywheel says:

      This subpoena dies with Congress, though Rove was also subpoenaed by the Senate and that one doesn’t die. SJC has voted to recommend contempt, but the full senate did not vote on it.

  18. Loo Hoo. says:

    OMG-OT

    In Hersh’s most recent article, he reports that this meeting occurred in the wake of the overblown incident in the Strait of Hormuz, when a U.S. carrier almost shot at a few small Iranian speedboats. The “meeting took place in the Vice-President’s office. ‘The subject was how to create a casus belli between Tehran and Washington,’” according to one of Hersh’s sources.

    Via Think Progress.

  19. jvass says:

    Can anyone answer the question about Rove taking the 5th if brought before Congress? I assume he can, and then where does that leave us?

    We need an underling in the Siegelman case to crack and give up Rove.

    • emptywheel says:

      Yes, he can, I’m sure. I think it would leave HJC with good cause to refer the case to DOJ (perhaps even the new-fangled Obama DOJ) to pursue what incrimination Rove is talking about. Mind you, I think Rove will testify and lie–he always has in the past, and believes he has the ability to pull it off (witness his answers to Smith’s questions–he LIKES those kinds of word games). But still.

      Also note, even if this subpoena dies, they new, more Democratic HJC can vote to reissue the subpoena next year. If Karl has been pardoned by then (which I fully expect), then they will have unlimited power to question him.

  20. LS says:

    I can’t get over this:

    Pelosi,

    “As public officials, we take an oath of office to uphold the Constitution seriously”

    She’s as wacky as Goodling and Taylor…

    • DWBartoo says:

      Well that’s ‘good’. Consider what we would be facing were Nancy to take ‘it’ less than seriously?

      Remember, only 91% of the ‘people’ dislike the Congressional d’s, while a whopping 92.8% dislike the r’s.

      I mean really, we’re WAY ahead on this.

      Note: The preceding snark is for entertainment porpoises only.

        • DWBartoo says:

          Do you mean before or after Congress does ’something’, Dr. Accountability?

          Also, Ockham is correct, methinks, and you, dear Doctor, may consider yourself to have poetic license, in any case.

          :~D

    • bobschacht says:

      Pelosi,

      “As public officials, we take an oath of office to uphold the Constitution seriously”

      This seems to me to be extremely disingenuous. I am tempted to call it a lie. If it is not a lie, Pelosi’s idea of “upholding the Constitution” is on a par with Clinton’s “It depends on what the meaning of ‘is’ is.”

      She ought to recuse herself from any matter concerning impeachment on the grounds that she is up to her keester in CYA.

      In fact, I’d say she takes CYA a lot more seriously than the Constitution.

      Bob in HI

  21. MadDog says:

    So this ruling is actually more important as it relates to Rove’s testimony than as it relates to Miers. Because right now, based on the precedent of US v. Nixon, Rove will have to answer any question HJC asks.

    Well…ahmmm…yes…and no. *g*

    Let me make myself clear here.

    I do indeed agree with your point that this makes Turdblossom’s position untenable.

    However…*g*

    There is another critically important point that I haven’t seen anyone catch onto yet.

    The Bates ruling comes flat out and says The President’s Lawyer (in other words, the White House Counsel) has no claim to absolute immunity!

    Now think of that particular aspect in regard to the following pond scum:

    1. Miers, of course.
    2. Fredo!
    3. Fred Fielding.

    Let’s see if Congress now can/will summon the courage to drag Fredo’s ass before its various committees wrt to his participation in many things illegal. Stuff like:

    1. Torture.
    2. Warrantless surveillance.
    3. Politicizing the DOJ (remember that this started long before he slithered over to the DOJ as AG).

    Wrt this aspect of Bate’s ruling (WH Counsel has no claim of absolute immunity), Bates builds upon existing precedent from Clinton’s Administration.

    And SCOTUS has already nailed that door firmly shut!

    Yes, Turdblossom has much to worry about now, but I’m also willing to bet you that Fredo used up an entire store’s worth of Depends this morning.

  22. AZ Matt says:

    Footnote at the bottom of page 64:

    28 Not all rights or privileges are express in the Constitution. Of note here, the Constitution makes no reference to executive privilege or absolute immunity either.

    Dang that pesky Constitution!

    • perris says:

      not only does it make no mention of it, even if it did, none would exist that congress does not allow

      congress has COMPLETE power over the president, NOT the other way around

      when the president does something congress does not want him to do they CAN impeach him ALL power of the president eminates from congress

      there is not executive privilege at all, it does not exist if congress doesn’t want it to exist

      but congress is powerless unless they use their power

      (cool saying, isn’t it?)

  23. gosprey says:

    Marcy,

    Thanks for your super work!

    Can the President pardon folks pre-emptively, before they are charged with anything and for anything they might ever be charged with? If so, why would anyone – at least with sufficient confidence in a future pardon – worry about breaking the law? If not, why shouldn’t the Dems wait till Bush is gone to bring charges against Rove and others?

    • emptywheel says:

      Yes, Bush can and probably will pre-emptively blanket pardon Rove.

      So why doesn’t Rove testify? He wants to keep this secret–they don’t want to let on what htey did bc it really will piss people off.

      THat’s what I think is interesting–Rove will probably be called to testify in the next Congress, and if he receives a pardon, would have to testify in full with no fifth amendment.

      • skdadl says:

        How soon do you think Bush will be forced to pardon Rove? From what you’ve taught us so far, I’m concluding that they can’t stretch this out until January — ?

        • emptywheel says:

          They might be able to.

          Thing is, a pardon isn’t going to make the Dems give up on figuring out what happened here. So there are competing agendas.

      • gosprey says:

        Thanks, Marcy. I wasn’t aware that blanket pardons were possible and am surprised they aren’t a customary practice. However, you lay out an interesting potential dilemma: pardon Rove and watch him release all the skeletons, or skip the pardon and let him take the 5th. Interesting theater coming either way.

      • DWBartoo says:

        Rove, testify in whole?

        How would Congress or anyone else for that matter know what was withheld or glossed over or simply ‘forgotten’?

        And the final result?

        Rove gets to go on his merry way, destroying democracy, making mock of justice and the law etc.

        So, as far as the “Law’ is concerned, ’tain’t nobody gonna ‘pay’ anything and whatever ‘truth’ is exposed will be the extent of it?

        Geez, I’ll bet that will scare the bejeebus outta ‘them’ and they’ll mend their ways.

        But, I guess, if that’s the best we can hope for, then whoop-dee-doo.

        • perris says:

          How would Congress or anyone else for that matter know what was withheld or glossed over or simply ‘forgotten’?

          if an appearance becomes scheduled I am hoping marcy will be able to contact waxman and here at the wheel’s ouse we can have a thread to entertain possible questions to submit to waxman which he will surely consider

          • perris says:

            I am surely hoping some democrats will seize the oportunity to give the republians an “out”, offer them some pork and get them to help throw kkkarl under the bus

            rove is responsible for their fall from power, if they lose their seat to the power they still hold it will be entirely rove’s fault and SOME will DEFINATELY look to give rove some payback

            we should seek them out

            • DWBartoo says:

              Payback?

              Just how.

              Rover will live to become the beloved elder statesman of democratic destruction, he will never go hungry, nor lack a very lucrative sinicure or even several, as we now witness.

              No we’ve been punked. Bigtime.

              Our only recourse?

              “Get over it!”

              A bit less than ’satisfying’ and not even close to sufficiently NECESSARY (if we want ANY semblence of ‘Dee-mock-cracy’ to attend the rest of our lives, not to mention our children or theirs).

              • perris says:

                Payback?

                Just how.

                the republicans in power are not the rober barons, they simply sign onto robber baron philosophy because their donors want them to

                these republicans have a taste of power, it’s a drug, it’s cocain, it’s tobacco, it’s great sex, it’s all of the above

                they will gladly give him some payback if they knew they were going to be in power no more

            • emptywheel says:

              Nothing except the possibility he will be disproven.

              I think the most likely way Rove will do jail time–assuming a big pardon from Bush, covering this, and Abramoff, and a few other things–is that he testifies after his pardon and is found to have perjurted himself.

              • DWBartoo says:

                I believe you are 100% correct, Marcy.

                Would you care, as an intellectual exercise, to lay odds as to jail time?

                Purely speculative, of course, and I, at least, would never hold you to such guesswork, but just what cautionary impact will Rove’s consequence have upon his wannabees?

                Not one of the nation’s tormentors look to pay a thing for what has been done.

                That does not bode well for the future.

                Ford should not have pardoned Nixon, but, as we now know, in this country a President can do as he (or she) pleases and no one nor any ‘branch’ of government will be able to do a damed thing, in real, meaningful terms, until the people rise up, en mass, in revulsion.

                WE might consider odds on that one as well, Doctor.

                Have I told you lately how much I appreciate your invaluable insights and all the other things you do for the ’cause’?

                Well, I do.

                More than words may convey …

            • bobschacht says:

              Even so, what truly compells Rove’s honesty?

              Honor?

              HA! HAHAHAHAHAHA!

              Whew, that was a good one. Glad I didn’t have a mouthful of coffee or lunch.

              Bob in HI

          • bobschacht says:

            “here at the wheel’s [h]ouse”

            Hmm. I hereby dub this blog the Wheel House! Could be a handy monicker.

            “I’ll see you over at the Wheel House” [i.e., in the comments]

            “As I wrote over at the Wheel House today…”

            “As EW explained over at the Wheel House…”

            etc.

            Bob in HI

  24. emptywheel says:

    Here’s some excellent smack-down:

    Significantly, Mr. Rehnquist referred to his conclusions as “tentative and sketchy,” see id.,
    and then later apparently recanted those views. See U.S. Government Information Policies and
    Practices — The Pentagon Papers: Hearings Before the Subcomm. on Foreign Operations and
    Gov’t Info. of the H. Comm. on Gov’t Operations, 92nd Cong. 385 (1971) (testimony of William
    H. Rehnquist, Assistant Att’y Gen.) (“[M]embers[s] of the executive branch . . . have to report,
    give [their] name and address and so forth, and then invoke the privilege.”). In Clinton v. Jones,
    then-Chief Justice Rehnquist joined in holding that even the demands of the President’s schedule
    could not relieve him of the duty to give a civil deposition. 520 U.S. at 706 (“The burden on the
    President’s time and energy that is a mere byproduct of such review surely cannot be considered as onerous as the direct burden imposed by judicial review and the occasional invalidation of his
    official actions. We therefore hold that the doctrine of separation of powers does not require
    federal courts to stay all private actions against the President until he leaves office.”). Whatever
    force the Rehnquist memorandum36 had when written, then, it retains little vitality in light of
    Clinton v. Jones. If the President37 must find time to comply with compulsory process in a civil
    lawsuit, so too must his senior advisors for a congressional subpoena.

    36 The Rehnquist memorandum actually provides no support for absolute immunity for
    Ms. Miers because at the time she received her subpoena she was no longer an executive branch
    official, thereby relieving her of the need to be available to the President twenty-four hours a day

    • masaccio says:

      That’s my favorite part too.

      With that established, the Court is not at all persuaded by the Reno and Bradbury opinions. Unlike the Olson and Cooper OLC opinions, which are exhaustive efforts of sophisticated legal reasoning, bolstered by extensive citation to judicial authority, the Reno and Bradbury OLC opinions are for the most part conclusory and recursive. Neither cites to a single judicial opinion recognizing the asserted absolute immunity. Indeed, the three-page Bradbury OLC opinion was hastily issued on the same day that the President instructed Ms. Miers to invoke absolute immunity…

      Shorter Judge Bates to Stephen Bradbury: OMG You are such a hack.

  25. rosalind says:

    i missed this tuesday, did you all already discuss?

    “Judge John M. Facciola of the U.S. District Court today denied a motion by the White House to reconsider his earlier recommendations and reaffirmed his recommendation that the court order the Executive Office of the President (EOP) to search individual workstations used between March 2003 and October 2005 and preserve any e-mails located on those workstations or on portable media used by EOP employees.”

    does this just get added to the administration’s run-out-the-clock to-do list?

    • MadDog says:

      No, it didn’t get really any traction anywhere in the blogosphere.

      Bmaz got a “hot off the press” heads-up from the National Security Archives attorney, and emailed me on it with links to court orders since he knows of my addiction to the missing White House email subject.

      My email response back to him was “Probably get appealed and produce exactly no email, but one can hope.”

      And yes, the odds favor the White House still running out the clock on this.

  26. PetePierce says:

    Marcy first let me thank you for terrific research and an unbelievable high quality of posts considering the wide ground and number of topics you cover.

    I don’t know how you research so thorughly with such speed in so many areas.

    I’m unclear though as to your comment about Rove given that the House has not voted on contempt for him after HJC’s vote yesterday.

    I do need to read the opinion and possibly it mentions Rove although that wasn’t the case before Bates.

    Also I might have missed it but given that the appeals process would certainly be exhausted by all three of these people, and given that Rove’s issue as you distinguish is a separate claim and that WH has not invoked Ezecutive Privilege yet for Rove, why do you believe that inherent contempt is neglected. Even the main stream media has now learned of the inherent contempt power and they are beginning to question Sanchez and Conyers about it but I haven’t heard an answer yet that qualifies as definitive.

    What are these people afraid of if the lawyers among them know that as far as a civil process this will string out for a nominal couple of years?

    Inherent Contempt –whazup wit dat? Where did it go in Chairman Conyers’ and Sanchez’s mindset??????

    • emptywheel says:

      Pete

      Read my first post of the day (which I like to kid myself set off the whole opinion in the first place).

      The reason the whole House didn’t vote on contempt for Rove–inherent or statutory–is bc they knew Bates was going to rule soon. So they were waiting to see what happened there (and frankly, I’ve got a suspicion that the discussion about inherent contempt for Rove is one of the things that persuaded Bates to rule as he did–and he does mention Rove’s blowing off the committee).

      They’re better off NOT having voted contempt yet, bc now, if Bush decides to appeal this, they can then vote to hold Rove in inherent contempt, creating a disincentive for Bush to do so.

  27. KestrelBrighteyes says:

    Excuse me if this has been asked, but…

    I get the concept of “blanket pardon” a la Richard Nixon – but how can a pardon be pre-emptive? I mean I know Bush thinks he can sprinkle pixie dust and the law will morph into whatever he needs it to be at the time, but is there legal precedent for pre-emptive pardons?

    And doesn’t someone have to be convicted before they can be pardoned?

    If so, I’m thinking this might be a very good reason to try and stretch this out until January.

    • skdadl says:

      Nixon wasn’t convicted of anything — he wasn’t even impeached. He would have been, and he would have been convicted, so that’s why he resigned.

    • bobschacht says:

      Blanket pardons have been done, and accepted (i.e., not challenged in court.)

      This is one of those deals whereby you do what you think you can get away with, and if no one nails you for it, then you’ve gotten away with it.

      Nowadays, everyone is so shriveled up with fear of Roberts, Scalia, Thomas and Alito that court challenges are not being raised by people who would ordinarily raise them. But this WH has gotten slapped down a number of times on some pretty big issues, so I think if Bush makes any blanket pardons, I hope that someone challenges them in court.

      Bob in HI

      • MrWhy says:

        Now, THEREFORE, I, GERALD R. FORD, President of the United States, pursuant to the pardon power conferred upon me by Article II, Section 2, of the Constitution, have granted and by these presents do grant a full, free, and absolute pardon unto Richard Nixon for all offenses against the United States which he, Richard Nixon, has committed or may have committed or taken part in during the period from January 20, 1969 through August 9,1974.

        • bobschacht says:

          Mr Ford does not get to say what the law is. The Supremes do, but they don’t speak unless asked to. Ford’s pardon could be challenged in court, in theory, but no one has ever done so.

          If Preznit Bush tries this same trick for lesser mortals, someone might indeed challenge his ability to do so. Indeed, one of his reasons for NOT issuing blanket pardons might be that if he were challenged and lost, presidents in the future might lose their ability to grant such pardons.

          I think he may well grant some blanket pardons, but he may restrict those pardons to those whose case would be the strongest.

          But IANAL, etc.

          Bob in HI

    • PetePierce says:

      Ordinarily, in past administrations the pardon department at DOJ would have laughted at pre-emptive pardons. There may be no written provison for them but let’s talk real facts on the ground in your United States where 99% of the population .9999999999 to infinity is indifferent and deaf to this discussion and always will be.

      Right now the 6 or 7 attorney pardon department is backed up to pardons in the Clinton years. However this is a very politicized DOJ and people can be moved to the front of the line, etc. Obviously no one can publicly be pardoned for future determined conduct but they could be privately assured of pardons. After Jan 20, 2008 it isn’t going to be the Bush administration calling those shots.

      Many Barbara Comstockesque and Vicki Toensigesque (I hope my box still boots using them in the same sentence) individuals are pushing the concept of pre-emptive pardons. In other words Bush would pardon people for conduct uncovered in the future.

      In another context he may already have issued pre-emptive pardons by having Addington, Cheney, Fielding, Gillespie or whomever rope someone in –tell them xyz was expected and assuring them they woudl be pardoned for their conduct.

      Could Obama DOJ prosecute people involved in the conduct this thread is on point to? Sure but it’s doubtful that they will.

  28. Neil says:

    Thanks MadDog, Dr. Accountability, WilliamOckham

    Bloglines has the posts (via feedburner feed) up until this one, What Should Obama Do For Us?, Tuesday.

    Also, Bloglines can usually find the feeds when you give it the homepage URL I.E. http:/emptywheel.firedoglake.com but Bloglines finds only the old feed not the new one (feedburner.) I wonder if that’s a configuration issue with the FDL servers or if is managed at Bloglines? I’d be happy to pass the info along to the right party if any knows who that is.

    • WilliamOckham says:

      Hmm… There may be something a little wonky at fdl or feedburner. If you navigate to http://feeds.feedburner.com/fi…..ormat=xml, you should see xml entries for all of ew’s posts. The first time I did that just now, the most recent post was ‘No Consequences for the Wholesale Politicization of Justice’, but when I hit refresh, this post was the most recent one.

      My best guess is that there is nothing you can do on your end to resolve the problem.

      • DWBartoo says:

        “My best guess is that there is nothing you can do on your end to resolve the problem.”

        What an ominous consideration.

        One wonders how broadly it may come to be applicable …?

        Does it apply to ‘predicaments’, as well, WO?

      • Neil says:

        yep. feedburner is up to date at the url you provided, just not via bloglines. I dedided to subscribe via feedburner email to a bloglines emailbox and see how fast posts pop up as compared to the more commin bloglines subscription via feedburner. thanks for all your helpful info and ideas.

  29. Mary says:

    Bates wouldn’t mention anything about a stay until there is a request in -usually they would request a stay from the issuing court (Bates) first, and if denied would have a shot at asking for the stay from the appellate court, all subject to determinations as to the likelihood of success on appeal.

    While appeals usually have 30 days, and with gov as a party – which I guess is how they would posture this – up to 60, so you might not know by the 27th what they were doing on appeal, except that if they want the stay and Bates won’t give it to them, they are going to really lay out something for the appellate court to get it and that will put things on speed dial.

  30. perris says:

    it would look like they would be happy to give some info on what he told them, inside information, and what he knew, how he knew it, what he promised, what he was able to deliver

    they would help compose the script, what to ask and give information that would be chilling in scope

    that be just fine as far as I am concerned

  31. Hmmm says:

    Amazingly great decision from Bates, very unexpected.

    I would say Rove, Gonzales, Meiers, Bolten, et al. are exceedingly unlikely to receive any pardon until after the election, because of hit that McCain would suffer. That leaves the D’s a window of about 3 un-pardoned months to get stuff done, hearings-or-contempt-wise. Do we think they will be able to do anything consequential with that time? Ordinarily there would be a recess issue, but Congress already plans to stay in session in order to avoid recess appointments (well, at least the Senate, I haven’t heard about the House). In fact, yesterday Reid openly taunted the R’s with the prospect of staying active on stuff like the energy bill through the whole summer, which would tend to force the R candidates facing stiff D challengers at home to stay in DC, rather than go home to campaign, increasing potential D seat gains. But nonetheless I would expect the R’s in Congress to rally to do all they can to stonewall.

    • PetePierce says:

      The onslaught of pardons if it comes (one school of thought is that Bush will not issue that many pardons, another is that there will be a good number for some of the people hated the most) won’t be until from Christmas until Jan. 20, 2009.

      • Hmmm says:

        Right, so that means a window between now and then. Election time would be the soonest closing of the window. Now, how much real stuff can the D’s get done before the window closes?

    • bobschacht says:

      Thanks! The most remarkable quote from the article, IMHO:

      Rep. Pete Hoekstra, (R-Mich.), the committee’s ranking Republican, said: “Given the impact that this order will have on America’s intelligence community, and this committee’s responsibility to oversee intelligence activities, this cannot be seen as anything other than an attempt to undercut congressional oversight.

      I just about fell outa my chair that mr rubberstamp would say such a thing– Oh, wait, he’s looking a head to a Democrat in the WH! That explains everything! Now, all of a sudden, we’re gonna need congressional oversight!

      Bob in HI

  32. MadDog says:

    For those who believe that Inherent Contempt powers of Congress can and should be used against recalitrant Administration miscreants, this Bates Opinion (Pages 36-39) raises a stiff cautionary note that such power may in fact be a mirage:

    …When the respondent is a member of the executive branch who refuses to comply on the basis of executive privilege, however, OLC stated that the “contempt of Congress statute does not require and could not constitutionally require a prosecution of that official, or even, we believe, a referral to a grand jury of the facts relating to the alleged contempt.”

    …Thus, neither criminal prosecution nor inherent contempt could be employed against a recalcitrant executive branch official, as OLC saw it…

    …Likewise, OLC indicated that although inherent contempt is theoretically available to Congress and could ultimately be challenged by the executive branch through a writ of habeas corpus brought by the detained official, “it seems most unlikely that Congress could dispatch the Sergeant at-Arms to arrest and imprison an Executive Branch official who claimed executive privilege.”

    • Hmmm says:

      That’s framed as EP only, though, so isn’t Rove unprotected by OLC’s interpretation there?

      • MadDog says:

        Well, yes…and no. *g*

        I think the reference to EP is immaterial. Immaterial that is, to the underlying issue of the Inherent Contempt powers of Congress.

        I note too, that these are references to the OLC, which is of course, a biased component of the Executive branch.

        However, the very fact that the Judicial branch itself makes mention of these OLC opinions in a salutary manner, should give pause to folks who believe that the Inherent Contempt powers of Congress are the cat’s meow.

        I include myself in amongst those who would wish Congress to stand up more for its own rights. We may all be pissing into the wind.

    • masaccio says:

      I don’t think Judge Bates has a negative attitude towards inherent contempt. He just recognizes it would be unseemly (at 41):

      The Committee’s attempt to pursue criminal prosecution of its contempt of Congress citation was thwarted by the Executive. Exercise of Congress’s inherent contempt power through arrest and confinement of a senior executive official would provoke an unseemly constitutional confrontation that should be avoided. Cf. United States v. Nixon, 418 U.S. at 691-92 (concluding that forcing the President to disobey a court order to obtain appellate review would create an unseemly, unnecessary constitutional confrontation between the branches).

      He uses the word unseemly several more times. Furthermore, he points out that the Supreme Court has recongnized the right of inherent contempt (at 61:

      In Marshall v. Gordon, 243 U.S. 521 (1917), the Court explained that Congress’s implied inherent contempt authority “rests solely upon the right of self-preservation to enable the public powers given to be exerted.” Id. at 541. This implied power derives “from the right to prevent acts which, in and of themselves, inherently obstruct or prevent the discharge of legislative duty.”

      • DWBartoo says:

        Judicial concerns about “unseemly”-ness are quite proper and definitely appropriate, but it appears to me that such “unseemly”-ness as there is, was begun some time ago, and rather pervasively so … and that Congress has been complicit in ‘it’, generally, rather than initiating said “unseemly”-ness, which role, if justice is not to be mocked, must be attributed to another actor or actors …

        Such delicious irony is not lost on Judge Bates, I suspect.

        • masaccio says:

          Judge Bates points out that in the usual case, the legislative and executive branches work out the problems. If they don’t, the judicial branch is there. I think he’s right that letting the courts deal with this is the best thing, rather than have the House trying to arrest Miers, and the Executive Branch sending out people to protect him. Oddly, this is Scalia’s argument in Gore v. Bush.

          The opinion urges the parties to solve it themselves, but Judge Bates makes it clear that he will solve it if they don’t work it out.

          • DWBartoo says:

            Clearly then, this is not a ‘ususal’ case, but the behavior of SCOTUS, unConstitutionally (and probably illegally) insinuationg itself into the 2000 election, was hardly usual either, especially their contention that what they were doing was NOT precedential, when in fact, it was and is, precisely that. Perhaps, the current “unseemly”ness had its genesis at that moment?

            What is not clear is whether the Judical ‘Branch’ realizes, as much as an ‘institution’ can realize anything, that their own ‘deference’, on issues AND principles where they should NEVER be deferential, has circumscribed their own authority and compromised their own legitimacy.

      • MadDog says:

        That would still be a cautionary note, yes?

        And that was a part of my point about the use of Congress’s Inherent Contempt power.

        Judge Bates is basically saying to Congress, “Don’t go down that path” and instead allow the Judicial branch via a Civil suit to rule on the validity of Congress’s position.

        It is like saying it would be better to have an impartial referree when the two fight than to not.

    • skdadl says:

      The witness is Col. Morgan Banks, a psychologist with the U.S. Army Special Operations Command. Officials did not say why his testimony is being kept secret.

      I have two guesses. Either Col. Banks observed torture, or Col. Banks and others do not want him to be liable professionally or otherwise for his participation in questionable interrogation practices.

  33. sojourner says:

    I have been following this all day and want to stand up and cheer! Here’s one victory for true law and order!

    One observation… If I were Karl Rove, I think that I would be getting rather nervous. With some of the recent rulings, and particularly this one, he is now fair game for virtually anyone who wants to take a stab at enforcing the law. Some people tried a citizens’ arrest the other night in Iowa. Whether or not they can really do it is another matter, but Karl may find himself having to fend off the local citizenry at one of his engagements.

    I am sure there are procedures to be followed in response to the contempt referral, but if I have read things right, they differ between the House and the Senate.

    I guess where I am going is that he probably does not know which way to look to avoid any problems. Somehow, it seems fitting…

  34. BayStateLibrul says:

    I don’t think either Hardnuts or Countup mentioned this important decision.
    Is that odd, or did I miss something?