Russell Tice Confirms Everything We've Surmised About Bush's Illegal Wiretap Program

 

Teddy linked to the stunning Russell Tice appearance on Keith O tonight. I wanted to add a few points.

First, Tice’s description of the program confirms everything we have surmised about the program. The program:

  • Established the means to collect all American communications
  • Analyzed meta-data to select a smaller subset of communications to tap further
  • Conducted human analysis of those messages

That is, the Bush administration used meta-data (things like length of phone call that have nothing to do with terrorism) to pick which communications to actually open and read, and then they opened and read them.

And of course, everyone’s communications–everyone’s–were included in the totality of communications that might be tapped.

Including–especially–journalists. We knew that both Christiane Amanpour and Lawrence Wright’s communications were tapped. Well, apparently so were every other journalists’.

Tice figured out that they were getting journalists’ communications when he realized that they were separating out all the journalists’ communications–but then ensuring that those communications were still collected 24/7.

I guess I was right to doubt the government’s claim–made to the FISCR–that it does not have a database of the communications of incidentally collected non-targeted persons, seeing as how this separate collection of journalists’ communications would be just that kind of database. (Unless, of course, the Bush thugs want to admit they deliberately targeted journalists as suspected terrorists.)

Tice also explained how BushCo evaded oversight by claiming some of this program was an intelligence program, and some was a military program. (Presumably, though, my smart Senator Carl Levin might notice something like that…) That strategy seems remarkably similar to the means by which BushCo legally justify the PAA (and presumably the program operating without Congressional sanction before it)–by using hybrid means of approving the program so as to eviscerate the Fouth Amendment. Nothing was too cute for these folks in their efforts to gut the Constitution, I guess.

Now that Tice has confirmed that all those journalists who have been poo-pooing the blogosphere for its concerns about the program in the last three years were being wiretapped, we may finally get some large scale press attention on this. Russ Feingold is going to look pretty damn smart for insisting that this is precisely what was going on. And perhaps, finally, we’ll have some accountability on these issues.

As I’ve been hinting, I did my small part in the hopes of accountability today; hopefully I’ll have the video done to explain tomorrow.

I’m beginning to believe we might just hold these fuckers accountable yet.

image_print
  1. JohnJ says:

    I had to rush ahead to say this:

    Picture the year 2058, the Smithsonian Presidential wing hangs the stained underwear of chimpy and Darth dated 1/21/09.

    Gotta get someone to preserve them as part of our national heritage.

  2. freepatriot says:

    I’m beginning to believe we might just hold these fuckers accountable yet.

    I suspected as much all along

    the universe has a slight positive bias

    that’s the reason we get positrons, but not negatrons

    I could esplain it all to you, but then you’d be just a crazy as me …

    • BayStateLibrul says:

      Yes. I like your definition of what my daddy might say, “What goes around, comes around.”

      What drove me certified nutty was our past 8 years where I doubted your
      theory, cuz at every nook and cranny we was fucked.

    • MrWhy says:

      For the record – negatrons as you call them are electrons. We’ve got a whole lot more of them than we do positrons.

    • MarkH says:

      the universe has a slight positive bias

      that’s the reason we get positrons, but not negatrons

      Trying to put a positive spin on thing? Ha!

  3. manys says:

    Well, as far as we know, something like this sweeping might still be going on until Obama cuts the hose. With moles in Intelligence our homeboys might get wind pretty early on that they should be buying some plane tickets to Uruguay.

  4. pdaly says:

    After hearing Tice’s broadcast, I was reminded of Adrienne Kinne’s experience in the NSA’s Highlander unit–figuring out for herself that our government was eavesdropping on NGOs and its own military families.

    James Bamford never answered EW’s question whether Kinne was subsequently investigated for speaking out.
    The government went after Tice, so it would stand to reason she was targeted, too.

    Both Tice and Kinne were government employees, with a good sense of traditional American values. I would think the Bush Administration would have subcontracted out the illegal stuff to private companies, to prevent this kind of worker from hearing and seeing the misdeeds.

  5. texasdem says:

    This comment has probably been made before, but if they were actually wiretapping everyone and everything everywhere, is it reasonable to guess that the actual name of the program, before it became public, was Total Surveillance Program? And then when it leaked (or part of it leaked), the ever-clever Bushies renamed it (or named that part) the Terrorist Surveillance Program?

    Cause that would be just like them, all around.

  6. bobschacht says:

    I guess I was right to doubt the government’s claim–made to the FISCR–that it does not have a database of the communications of incidentally collected non-targeted persons, seeing as how this separate collection of journalists’ communications would be just that kind of database.

    I think we had this discussion here several days ago. You see, it all depends on what a “database” is. A database is an organized abstraction of reality. But if you have the whole thing– all of it– that’s not really a database. In systems theory terms, its a heap.

    But if you have really good software, you don’t really need a database. You just re-analyze the raw data for today’s special interest (say, the communications of a certain Marcy Wheeler from January 1, 2007 to December 31, 2008.) And then you organize that extract into a temporary database to serve your current needs, and then you zap it, knowing that you can always get the info back.

    Hey, you don’t think they stopped at journalists, do you?
    Do you think Dick Cheney just might have been interested in the communications of, say, Nancy Pelosi during certain critical time periods when pending legislation was at issue? Or maybe all of her calls relating to a certain special interest of hers that might be embarrassing?

    What will be the first case of political blackmail to come to light?

    Bob in HI

    • wigwam says:

      But if you have really good software, you don’t really need a database. You just re-analyze the raw data for today’s special interest (say, the communications of a certain Marcy Wheeler from January 1, 2007 to December 31, 2008.) And then you organize that extract into a temporary database to serve your current needs, and then you zap it, knowing that you can always get the info back.

      Exactly! And that is where I believe Tice is wrong. He claims that recording and archiving all phone calls, FAXes, clicks and keystrokes exceeds the capacity of the NSA’s computers, and I think he is wrong there. Based on what I think are conservative back-of-the-envelope calculations, it appears that setting up a facility that could store everything would cost on the order of a B2 bomoer or two, i.e., a few billion dollars.

      The obvious question is: “But wouldn’t it eventually overflow?” And the answer is: “Not if technology continues to progress as in has for the past five decades.”

      The point is that the half-life of the cost of recording a terabyte of data is a year or two. Let’s just say it a year. The cost of capturing America’s communication the first years would be X dollars, the second years X/2, the third year X/4, etc. When you sum the series X+X/2+X/4+X/8+…, it turns out that recording all conversations forever is 2X, i.e., twice recording everything for the first half-life (e.g., first year). I don’t believe that technology can progress that well forever, but it likely will for many years.

  7. pdaly says:

    Totally off topic, but I sense more live interviews and Poltics.TV type broadcasts are in the wings.

    What better time to think about creating a “portable interview studio.”

    I think I’ve found the perfect interview sofa for EW and the FDL crew. .. the Sofabox.

    Made in Switzerland, a nice neutral country. Website states they can add your corporate logo.
    It’s portable, shippable, and looks like it could fit in the halls of congress or anywhere else the commissions and court proceedings might take you.

  8. freepatriot says:

    so would this be the business of my senior senator ???

    cuz I could get some friends to call DiFi

    rumor has it she wants to be our governor

    I’m thinkin we could force her to do the job she’s got now …

  9. bobschacht says:

    Given Cheney’s predilections, I’d bet he has some moles stashed in critical places in the telecommunications network. Obama might need a counter-spy operation worthy of James Jesus Angleton to smoke out all the moles Cheney, Libby and Addington have stashed here and there. And not just in the government, but in the Telecoms. This could get real creepy.

    Bob in HI

    • readerOfTeaLeaves says:

      That’s a point that I tried to make back in late 2007, when Mad Dogs unearthed those Sun Research docs. It was like reading scifi, thinking about how impossible it would be to find anyone inside this kind of system.

      Also, completely agree with your points about semantics: ‘database’, ‘heap’, whatever word allowed them to mince terms and therefore delude themselves into claiming they did not bear false witness, when in fact their deceptions were deliberate and premeditated.

      Look at how long they stayed beneath the surface after Iran-Contra, only to have Elliott Abrams come back into foreign policy. There’s no way they didn’t leave breadcrumbs, trapdoors, false walls, and any number of moles nested in.

  10. Dismayed says:

    I wonder why they singled out journalist? It’s not like they do any actual investigating, or even have the curiosity to wonder if they should.

    • Rayne says:

      Some journalists did do real investigative work. I’m sure that some have been muzzled, if not by different government agencies in any number of ways (Tice’s mental health was questioned, for example), but by their editors.

      Imagine doing a story on a “special access program” and trying to get it through an editor at a right-wing owned outlet.

      Or trying to publish a story on this topic for which you only have Tice’s word or the word of another intel professional. How does the editor corroborate the content in order to authorize its publication — particularly if the government was playing shell games with the info?

        • Rayne says:

          True — but I think we’ve also seen indications that ALL journalists were targets, not just Amanpour and Wright. Didn’t we also know that Brian Ross was being wiretapped, as one example? In Ross’ case, he was surely being “followed” because he’d been leaked to about the program(s).

          Which brings me to the point I didn’t make last night about “special access programs.” Tice referred to them in plural. Tice didn’t mention “”Alternative or Compensatory Control Measures,” ACCMs, which WaPo Early Warning blogger William Arkin mentioned only a week after Tice got his warning letter from the NSA. ACCMs were supposedly even easier to establish than SAPs and did not have to have Congressional oversight.

          I think Tice has only shown us the tip of the iceberg.

    • Neil says:

      I wonder why they singled out journalist? It’s not like they do any actual investigating, or even have the curiosity to wonder if they should.

      To nail the leakers in the Federal government who were appalled at the lawlessness and ready to talk.

      • Dismayed says:

        And there you have it.

        I was being somewhat sarcastic, but the question returned a lot of good comments – so who says being a smart-ass gets you nowhere.

  11. Rayne says:

    On a more local basis, we need to ask a couple people more pointedly what they did in response to Russell Tice’s whistleblowing.

    Tice wrote to a number of elected government officials in April 2006 about a “special access programs“, including both Rep. Pete Hoekstra (R-MI) as Chair of the House Permanent Select Committee on Intelligence, and Sen. Carl Levin (D-MI) as ranking minority member of the Senate Armed Forces Committee.

    Very fricking little happened, although Hoekstra did a bit of puling about the intel community misleading Congress. You’d think the Jan. 2006 letter from the NSA warning Tice, copied to the Intel Committees about his intended contact of the Senate and House Intel Committees would have made them sit up and pay more attention and be more aggressive…

    One thing that could be done in short order is provide better whistleblower protections, along with a process by which intel professionals and any other persons with knowledge of intel gathering/processing could disclose concerns about classified programs and know that they were going to be reviewed with as much transparency as possible while not compromising legitimate security programs.

  12. Rayne says:

    By the way, if anybody happens to be talking with members of Congress who are members of “congressional defense committees”, it might be worth pointing out that the next annual report on “special access programs” is due February 1.

    Would be nice to know if what Tice says jibes with what’s been reported for the last handful of annual reports, or this year’s annual report.

  13. Hmmm says:

    Established the means to collect all American communications

    Total Hoovering, then. Nobody could have predicted…

  14. freepatriot says:

    so what’s the scoop on this Austrian dude at the UN that KO was talking about

    if I heard that right, the UN can start war crimes investigations without waiting for the offending nation to take remedies

    and I saw something I ain’t been able to confirm; I heard that Paraguay signed an extradition treaty

    the walls are closing in

  15. LabDancer says:

    In contrast with the case of Valerie Plame Wilson, I’m inclined to expect that, very soon, the perspective Tice brought to this will be one among many: Recall Sy Hersh mentioning having been told by an impressive number[to him] of government officials each expected to be pleased to speak with him in great detail starting January 21, 2009.

  16. BayStateLibrul says:

    Gag, gag, Bush write a book, oh my, working title?
    How will he explain democracy when Iraq falls apart after our occupation
    ends?

    “President Bush is an active, energetic man who at age 62 has many years of positive contribution ahead of him. In this new season, he won’t stand in the spotlight—it is President Obama’s turn now. He’ll write a book to share with the American people the factors he considered as he made the decisions he did. He’ll work on building his presidential library, and an accompanying policy institute dedicated to advocating freedom and responsibility. Soon, I expect we’ll be welcoming Afghan women, leaders of emerging democracies, dissidents fighting for freedom, and those who are leading the fight against disease and poverty in the developing world to the campus of Southern Methodist University in Dallas.”

    Karen Hughes

  17. plunger says:

    Here’s a certainty, at least from my own perspective. Karl Rove was the individual who ordered that all reporters communications be tapped. We will eventually learn that Rove received a briefing every morning from NSA on just what reporters were up to.

    Rove personally took down Dan Rather. He knew exactly what story they were working on, fed them a bogus document, knew they were going to call the White House to confirm its authenticity, read all of the correspondence between Rather, his producers, editors, boss, etc., and even had a plan in place for their coordinated response after the piece ran.

    Rather was taken down as an example, that Karl Rove could personally ruin ANY journalist who stepped out of line.

    Note that it was actually George HW Bush who had it in for Rather for years, and Rove who answered the call:

    http://www.counterbias.com/120.html

    So if GHW was vindictive enough to bring down Rather, how do you think he felt about the editor of the National Enquirer who published photos of his darling granddaughters, drunk?

    Remember who was targeted with Anthrax? Reporters.

    The anthrax story and the wiretapping story are the SAME story. These dots connect.

    • MarkH says:

      Note that it was actually George HW Bush who had it in for Rather for years, and Rove who answered the call:

      Bushies believe in revenge and when Rather dissed Poppy Bush they had to get their revenge.

      Something similar happened with regard to the chess player Bobby Fischer. He spat on a cable telling him not to do business in Serbia in 1992. They bided their time and one time when Fischer was leaving Japan they cancelled his passport. The Japanese arrested Fischer, jailed him and were going to return him to America where he’d be put in prison. But, Iceland gave him citizenship and he ‘escaped’ there. But later he died of a somewhat mysterious disease.

      No, the Bushies don’t play fair.

  18. plunger says:

    Remember that Rove had worked for GHW Bush, and apparently never stopped doing so.

    Karl:

    Put your hand on the bible.
    Now, under oath, do you swear that the NSA, AT&T, Comverse and others were NOT conducting Warrantless Wiretaps in advance of 9/11 during the early months of the Bush Administration, so help you God?

    What’s that Karl, I can’t hear you, could you speak up please, you’re mumbling. You’re not willing to swear to it under oath?

    You mean the Bush Administration ALREADY WAS engaged in warrantless wiretaps prior to 9/11, and 9/11 happened any way?

    Well shit, that changes everything, doesn’t it Karl?

    Maybe it’s the case that 9/11 could never have happened WITHOUT your warrantless wiretaps prior to 9/11.

    How else could you orchestrate all of the interference (including shutting down the Able Danger program) to enable the attacks to be pulled off on the exact same day and at the exact same time as NORAD had been ordered to stand down to conduct drills simulating planes being hijacked and flown into buildings?

    You selected the day, didn’t you, Karl? 911. How clever. The very number Americans had come to equate with emergency, brought to you by branding strategist extraordinaire – the same fellow who launched the

    “Al Qaeda In Iraq”

    brand – Karl Rove.

    We know Karl.

    We know what you did.

  19. perris says:

    I’m beginning to believe we might just hold these fuckers accountable yet.

    it’s what we’ve been working on for far too long, fingers crossed

  20. plunger says:

    When Bamford mentions Verint as the Israeli-based company involved in NSA wiretapping, know that Verint is just the new name for Comverse Infosys and Amdocs – all then run by Kobi Alexander. Kobi is a fugitive from the law right now. Listen to this FOX News report to understand how it came to pass that Mossad installed the NSA’s wiretapping equipment:

    http://www.youtube.com/watch?v…..re=related

  21. wavpeac says:

    Well, regardless of the different subsets and my guess is that journalist, congressman, social workers, all kinds of folks were considered in a subset for collecting data. Bottom line is that this served to put a “chill” on all reporting. This puts a chill on confronting bush whether you know for certain what is going on, or you just suspect it. The suspicion is enough to prevent people from going after bush. The lesson becomes clear. Mess with us, we have the power to mess with you. (regardless of whether or not they have used it or do use it…it’s that illusion of power).

    Bushco ruled by fear, and power and control. We all have an inkling or sense that they could “allow” a terrorist attack at any time. (we don’t have to know they did, just worry that they could in the back of our heads). If they had access to all this information and people in congress suspected it, congress folks could worry that as soon as they confronted these potential sociopaths (do I need the word potential?? given katrina, iraq war, outing of plame, violation of laws??) they would or could allow a catastrophe that would shift the blame to the democrats. Fear works. They know it. All they would have to do, is ignore something. It gives them so much power. It is not important as to whether or not they really used it in this way, but that they could, that creates the power. It is the reason our constitution was written the way it was. I think that as we are trying to argue against mythical ticking time bombs we have to make clear that threat of tyranny, not the accusation of it, just the threat. It doesn’t really matter whether or not we can prove that they abused the information, we have to only make the case that they could have and what the implications of this would be.

    I was absolutely stunned at the number of people calling c-span this morning that believe O was the anti christ. One terrorist attack, one catastrophe…and the republicans are back in charge. I would hate to be in Obama’s shoes. He really is threading the needle, terrorists on side and bushco on the other. Really sad. Really disturbing. Which one is more dangerous? I’d say the one who has the most power.

    • FreedomNow says:

      Heck, the Lord, Most Merciful Blessed Bamster won’t tolerate being called anything other than the beneficent one. If anyone fits the definition of Anti-Crist it’s him…I just hope Benyamin Netanyahu really has the mirror copy of all those communications I know Bamster has been having with Iranians and Pakistanis….

        • FreedomNow says:

          Just those cooperating with or making it easier for the terrorists who will destroy the West if given a chance.

            • FreedomNow says:

              Very definitely…we ARE a constitutional Republic, but a Constitutional Republic has mechanisms in Article II to deal with extraordinary demands to public safety and security as represented by Islamo-Fascism.

          • Hugh says:

            Just those cooperating with or making it easier for the terrorists who will destroy the West if given a chance.

            Amendment IV
            The right of the people to be secure in their persons, houses, papers, and effects, against unreasonable searches and seizures, shall not be violated, and no warrants shall issue, but upon probable cause, supported by oath or affirmation, and particularly describing the place to be searched, and the persons or things to be seized.

            Why do you hate the Constitution, our founding document, the one which the President is sworn to uphold and defend before all others? Sounds to me like you would destroy it if given the chance.

            • FreedomNow says:

              As Lincoln recognized, in a time of war, you must have the information necessary to defeat the enemy regardless of how that information was obtained.

              • Hugh says:

                As Lincoln recognized, in a time of war, you must have the information necessary to defeat the enemy regardless of how that information was obtained.

                The first part of the BS in your statement is “in time of war”. We are not at war. Point out to me any Declaration of War the Congress has made. Nor would Lincoln help you any because A) I doubt you have any applicable quote from Lincoln and B) what faced Lincoln was a civil insurrection which is covered in the Constitution. And no, no President is above the law and no President can disregard the Constitution if and when he/she feels like it. I would refer you back to the Presidential oath which is to defend not violate or circumvent the Constitution.

                In future, please try to form an argument that has some modicum of logic to it and facts to support it. Otherwise your statements might be mistaken for uninformed gas.

                • hackworth1 says:

                  The President is sworn to defend and uphold the Constitution including Ammendment IV. Amendment IV is an essential element of American Citizenship that many Right Wingers are glad to surrender.

                  A Republican told me on Tuesday that she has nothing to hide. The counter arguments are obvious.

  22. JThomason says:

    Manipulating the press was of special concern to both Rove and Cheney (1 X 2 X 6 ?). They perceived that the public could be mollified with disinformation and misdirection. It was a special kind of pathological obsession rooted deeply in a fantasy of total control with these folks. And that this method was at the heart of their operations is also understood by them to be beyond inquiry as a matter of “national security” and closely held at all costs under the defenses of “state’s secrets” and “executive privilege”.

    • plunger says:

      “If you tell a lie big enough and keep repeating it, people will eventually come to believe it. The lie can be maintained only for such time as the State can shield the people from the political, economic and/or military consequences of the lie. It thus becomes vitally important for the State to use all of its powers to repress dissent, for the truth is the mortal enemy of the lie, and thus by extension, THE TRUTH IS THE GREATEST ENEMY OF THE STATE.”

      – Joseph Goebbels, German Minister of Propaganda, 1933-1945

      “As people do better, they start voting like Republicans – unless they have too much education and vote Democratic, which proves there can be too much of a good thing.”

      Karl Rove.

      This is what REAL investigative reporting looks like:

      http://www.bollyn.com/index/?id=10797

      Bollyn was so good (and we now know, wiretapped 24/7), that Chertoff sent ICE goons in riot gear to his home on the outskirts of Chicago and beat him in his own yard in front of his wife and kids. He’s since moved to Canada. This country owes this reporter a huge debt of gratitude for his relentless search for the truth about the spying done inside the most critical systems in the United States, and names the names of those who enabled it.

  23. WilliamOckham says:

    I suspect the real reason they were tapping journalists was to keep tabs on the whistleblowers and the innocents caught up in their gulag operation.

    • emptywheel says:

      Yup. And to have stuff to be able to blackmail journalists with.

      Don’t forget–the first journalist they were surveilling was John SOlomon (whose phone records they got to find out who had tipped him to the TOrricelli investigation).

      After that happened, Solomon was a consistently amendable journalist to the Bush Administration.

      • drational says:

        In all honesty, I think there were legitimate strategic reasons to WANT to tap journalists. Especially those working in “combat zones”. Tipsters undoubtedly are tied to those placing bombs. The tipsters call the Iraqi journalists working for Al Jazeera. Al Jazeera uses a freelance cameraman who also works for and communicates with American Citizen journalist in Baghdad. So if your technology acquires the whole networks communications, you may get the American and his calls back home to other Americans. Right?
        This was my speculation about the episode in May 2007 when the Americans were ambushed in Iraq….

        • Hugh says:

          In all honesty, I think there were legitimate strategic reasons to WANT to tap journalists

          Wow, and I’m sure that terrorists would never think to use stolen or throwaway cell phones. And if this is all happening in a “combat zone”, why the need for gigantic program to tap domestic communications? There are holes in this argument you could run a Mack truck through.

          • hackworth1 says:

            No legitimate (or legal) reasons to tap journos, but myriad political and sociological reasons to data mine journalists (and everyone).

            Bush(co) and Loyalty. You know who your political friends are. You know who your enemies are. You know who is being swayed. You know who is solid – like the late Tim Russert – Dick Cheney’s go-to guy – When we want to disseminate our message we go with Meet The Press. Russert is dead, was he wavering in his support? Another Conspiracy Theory.

            Now David Gregory is ridiculously solid in Republican La la land.

    • FreedomNow says:

      Britt Hume accepted the bugging (and subsequent apology) with good grace, no lawsuit, and the gentlemanly courtesy he always has been known for.

    • Gitcheegumee says:

      I was thinking the same thing about Mike Connell, the GOP IT expert who was to testify before FEDS on voter fraud in Ohio. His plane crashed days before his testimony.

      epluribusmedia has definitive articles about the history of Connell’s activities for the GOP.
      His specialty ,among other IT talents, was “Intelligent Man in the Middle” system that REROUTED votes to ANOTHER server before beoing tallied!

      BTW, in regards to the illegal wiretapping,I wonder if servers were rerouted to Israel?

      • Leen says:

        According to Cameron’s four part report, these communication servers systems were “compromised” or “infiltrated” through a “back door”

        Sure seems like both Republicans and Democrats have a fair amount of confidence in regard to Blair

      • wigwam says:

        I can’t get the link to work, wigwam. ?? Is the info available at another site?

        Hmmmmm. Very strange. Most of the link copied correctly but some parts in the middle did not.

        Here is another try:
        http://www.democraticundergrou…..215;217787

        And it looks good under visual inspection, but when I preview it, it’s screwed up again.

        So here is a hidden link, but I’ll not be able to test it until after it is posted.

        • Rayne says:

          Thanks, got it that time. Makes the situation with Andrew Card’s sister look like this was a standard M.O., assuming that she really wasn’t deluded (before the Haldol “therapy”).

          In re: storage of all info — yes, I think Tice is not correct on this point. Could we store a bunch of communications, perhaps moderately pre-sorted or delimited if we had 9 billion in cash to offer a vendor? (Just swagging a number there…) Perhaps.

          Since Bush took office, I’ve acquired a mess of thumb drives just as an example of the change in technology. The first was 64Kb. The last one, received a week ago, is 240Gb.

          As an IT professional I once ran an email system for an entire manufacturing plant on only 500Gb; I would have killed to add another 240Gb to that box, and now I have it on a keychain.

          • Professor Foland says:

            Everything I’ve ever produced by typing or snapping a picture fits on a 500 GB drive; which, if you’re cost-driven, you could obtain for well under $100. I use about half of my 500 cell phone minutes each month, that’s about 50 hours of audio a year, which fits on a few-GB ipod with no problem. I think that says that the storage needed for any individual runs in the $100 range; perhaps up to as much as $1000 if you want to do it real nice. Seems to me that the only bulk processing power needed would be for text-converting the audio, I’d guess another $100 per person would cover it easily (a fraction of a CPU).

            $1100 per US citizen probably is too much to hide in the various black budgets, but $200 comes to $60BB, which I bet you could trivially hide over a few years. By the time you add infrastructure and overhead it’s probably over $100BB; but again, maybe not so hard to hide if spread out over a few years.

            • wigwam says:

              Seems to me that the only bulk processing power needed would be for text-converting the audio, I’d guess another $100 per person would cover it easily (a fraction of a CPU).

              Here is how I organized my calculations:

              The 300-million Americans spend on-average say an hour per day on the phone, but each party to those conversations talks on average 30 minutes and listens the other thirty. A second of phone conversation generates 1000 bytes (8000 bits) of phone traffic. So a minutes generates 60,000 bytes of phone traffic. So Americans generate about 200,000 terabytes (200,000-trillion bytes) of phone traffic per year — that’s 300-million Americans x 30 (min/day)/American x 60,000 bytes/min x 365.25 days/year.

              I’ve seen terabyte disk drives as low as $100, which would figure out to 20 million dollars for the disks to store a year’s of America’s phone conversations. Even if we jack the price up by a factor of 100 to have better quality disks and redundancy and CPUs and chassis and rack and uninterruptable power supplies, etc., we are only talking 2 billion dollars, which I’m told is the price of a B2 bomber.

            • Rayne says:

              $9 billion here or there, and soon you’re already well past $100 billion

              We were past the realm of that possibility on 9/10/2001 by another magnitude.

              I think the money is really not an issue at all, except that it provides two things: a way to track and find the programs if we can follow the money, and provide prosecution opportunities without compromising security if handled carefully.

              Think Al Capone nailed on tax evasion, for example; we nail them on simple theft.

              • readerOfTeaLeaves says:

                Don’t you assume that part of the move to ‘contracting’, especially paying people well (a la Blackwater) were the rails laid down back when Cheney was working for GHWB, set in place to drive this train later?

                Then along came networked banking (and integrated financial services), and networks moved billions daily.
                Meanwhile, the FBI evidently didn’t have the necessary tools to track and investigage bogus mortgages?!! Wow, is that ever starting to look like a bug, rather than a feature.

                Then add on the anthrax threats to Leahy (Dem, Sen Judiciary), and to left-leaning reporters, particularly those like Tweety who were raising questions about Cheney’s link to the L’Affair Plame.
                Mind boggling.

            • BillE says:

              These guys have been doing numerous illegal activities to do off the books funding for years. Remember Iran-Contra really was about illicit funding. And all the stories about the Intelligence community is really the largest drug dealer in the world.

            • dopeyo says:

              nice math. but where would you find $60B? a few billion disappears off a truck in baghdad, a few billion gets padded onto a no-bid contract with halliburton, or KBR. a few billion suck into the ‘black’ budget items, and pretty soon it all adds up. remember, these are the geniuses who wasted hundreds of billions in iraq. if a little gets stuck to the sweaty palms distributing it, what’s the difference?

  24. plunger says:

    Ptech software in every critical system in the US?

    Indira Singh worked on Wall Street from 1975 Until June 28th, 2002 when she was summarily terminated due to her investigation into computer software company, Ptech. In Part One, She described her work as an emergency medical technician at ground zero, and began to describe her professional work for JPMorgan Chase and her first client meeting with software engineer, Ptech.

    Chase is controlled by one David Rockefeller. Probably just a coincidence, eh?

    July 20th 2005
    Inteview with Indira Singh

    IS: This is risk-management, at the highest levels of one of the largest banks in the world; it is my responsibility to deal with this. And I said, how can I get proof of this? And that’s when they started saying you need to talk to Jeff Goines, who was one of the only three people in Ptech who knew of this relationship. You see, it was that well hidden within Ptech, and so I subsequently called Jeff Goines and I said, well if this is true, did you not report this, particularly as a private company this relationship would have been privy only to those on the inside, I said, did you report it anywhere – that someone who has been placed on the US Terror List is key funder, angel investor, to a company whose software is utilized at the highest levels of almost every government and military and defense organization in this country, including the Secret Service, the FBI, the Department of Defense, the House of Representatives, the Treasury Department, the IRS, the US Navy, the US Air Force, and, last but not least, the Federal Aviation Administration?

    B.F.: Are you saying these were all Ptech clients?

    I.S.: These were all Ptech clients and when I was evaluating them I was pretty impressed – why not Ptech? Exactly. They’re being used at the highest levels of all of these organizations. So, I was very excited about using them and having their software be able to be at the heart of what I wanted to develop. And I had no reason to believe that if they were in use everywhere of that caliber that I would have a problem. They were also used in Enron, perhaps, I should have thought twice about that, but, umm, they were in use at IBM, of course, and the top accounting firms, and even in the FBI.

    http://www.matrixfiles.com/CB/IS.html

    Their software was inside Enron’s system. Any question about how they blackmailed Ken Lay and GHW Bush? Any question about how THEY facilitated the “Financial 9/11?” ALL SYSTEMS are compromised.

  25. plunger says:

    B.F.: Then did you start investigating the company?

    I.S.: Yes. What happened next was, um, I spoke with Jeff Goines and he told me that basically not only was Yassan Khadi an investor but that a Yacob Mertza was on the board of directors and he had been the subject of Operation Green Quest. Many of his Herndon, Virginia vehicles and companies,and financing companies, had been raided in March 2002. And, again, that Mertza was on the board of directors. As we spoke, other names started to come out, my head was pretty much spinning at this point, and I said have you reported any of this to the FBI? And the answer came back: yes, well I wrote a report to the FBI, and, umm … I said, okay, the boss in FBI has been told, I need to speak with people there, because it’s not just my group that’s evaluating them, it’s so many other groups but I couldn’t believe that, if this was all true that Ptech was still being used by the Department of Defense. There’s something a little bizarre about all of this and really I was beginning to understand, unwillingly, that the world was… was not the way we thought of it.

    http://www.matrixfiles.com/CB/IS.html

    So Ms. Singh wrote a report to the FBI detailing her concerns about Ptech’s investors and links to terror, and it went straight to Chertoff, the man in charge of Operation Greenquest – the operation purportedly tasked with tracking down the financing behind 9/11, but in reality, Chertoff’s job was to cover up the money trail.

    The White House and the FBI Killed Operation Greenquest, Michael Chertoff’s Faux Search To Track The Funding For 9/11

    http://www.washingtonpost.com/…..327_5.html

    The strongest pushback came from the Justice Department, where the mention of DHS inspired jokes about duct tape and chartreuse threat levels. Justice officials believed DHS had “too much focus on marketing and not enough on substantive delivery,” in the words of one aide to then-Attorney General John D. Ashcroft. “They were consumed with their public perception,” said Mark Corallo, an Ashcroft spokesman.

    Indeed, one of the new department’s biggest intramural furors was a branding fight with the FBI. It began when the director of a new DHS agency known as Immigration and Customs Enforcement — or ICE — decided to keep the catchy acronym but change the name to Investigation and Criminal Enforcement. The FBI, it turned out, had some proprietary feelings about the word “investigation.”

    At the FBI’s insistence, the White House had already forced ICE to give up its Operation Greenquest program investigating terrorism financing — and forced Ridge to sign a memo pledging to keep his department away from similar investigations. But Ridge thought this spat was just silly; nobody was going to mistake ICE for the FBI.

    Nevertheless, the White House told Ridge to back off.

  26. Leen says:

    Tice “All Americans communications”
    “Americans are a chatty group”
    “low tech dragnet”
    “U.S. news organizations and journalist”

    Journalist are not an omnipotent group of individuals. Obviously some of them do have their own agenda’s and the possibility that some may be agents of foreign nations do exist.

    How do you catch journalist doing the bidding of other nations and special interest groups legally?

    Sure appears that the low and high tech “dragnet” was all inclusive and out of control.

  27. Hugh says:

    OT and EPU’ed Henry Paulson is on his way to the John Hopkins’ School of Advanced International Studies where he will be part of the Forum on Constructive Capitalism. Nothing says constructive capitalism like putting the whole financial system in the crapper.

    http://money.cnn.com/2009/01/2…../index.htm

    The irony is no doubt lost on him. Still this goes to show how so many of the nation’s “advanced” schools for foreign policy and economics have been taken over and filled up with Republican deadheads.

  28. msobel says:

    What a wonderful concept

    We want to make sure we aren’t targeting the wrong people, so put all the congressional and senatorial staff and all county, state and national democratic party officers and activists (like caucus goers) onto the “Exclude” list. Cross reference all government employees and contractors with voter registration because we don’t want to single out Democrats. Put them all on the “Exclude” list.

    Now listen (analyze) to all the excluded conversations and communications to make sure they are properly on the Exclude list. We will give you a randomly selected list of people to check, for quality purposes.

    Oh and if we ever need to check someone who might be on the excluded list, keep the intercepts, just in, you know, case. Not a database or anything, just organized so that we can extract any given person’s intercepts in case they are on the wrong list. You know, time stamped.

  29. selise says:

    fyi, and even sort of on topic…. dennis blair’s nomination hearing for dni has just started (senate intelligence committee). difi did mention bushco warrantless spying in her opening statement. there is list of the day’s hearings at oxdown with links.

  30. Hugh says:

    It would be very useful if members questioned Blair on this hoovering up of all US communications or any variant of it (to avoid the Gonzales dodge of “well, not this program.”)

  31. tbsa says:

    Why isn’t Tice in Obama’s office right now? Judging from his interview last night it doesn’t even seem that BO is all that interested in Tice.

  32. perris says:

    That is, the Bush administration used meta-data (things like length of phone call that have nothing to do with terrorism) to pick which communications to actually open and read, and then they opened and read them.

    they have been stealing plain and simple, they aquired the information they needed to make investments, change investments

    they stole information that told them which way politicians would vote, what journalists were writing

    they then covered their tracks if being investigated or found information blackmailed lawmakers

    they stole, blackmailed, obstructed

  33. Hugh says:

    Daniel Inouye presents Blair. DiFi tells him to pull the mike up closer because his voice is muffled. Inouye says, “Maybe it’s tapped.” Nervous laughter in the room.

    • selise says:

      that was great – i hope someone puts up a youtube.

      i note blair, in his opening statement, uses the word “campaign” instead of “war”

  34. tbsa says:

    they stole, blackmailed, obstructed

    Of course they blackmailed. Why elso would Pelosi take impeachment off the table from the start of her leadership?

    • selise says:

      Of course they blackmailed. Why elso would Pelosi take impeachment off the table from the start of her leadership?

      is there any reason not to think that pelosi didn’t want to impeach? i can’t think of any.

      • tbsa says:

        Absoulutely not. I’ve suggested that she was blackmailed several times. Alot of folks thought it was too easy an explantion. Not so much now I suppose.

        • plunger says:

          As I’ve been inclined to say here on numerous occasions:

          “Assume blackmail first. There are no coincidences.”

            • plunger says:

              In considering everything, consider Pelosi’s roots, her position on the creation of

              “Eretz Israel”

              – the efforts made by this administration to acquire the territory and resources of the entire Middle East – and on whose behalf these efforts were made.

              There were two distinct factions. The PNAC faction and the New World Order faction. They became co-conspirators prior to W’s election (see Monica phone sex wiretap with Clinton), with all of the resources available to accomplish their goals. Pelosi, Reid, Chertoff, Feith, Rhode, Zakheim, Lieberman and countless others worked it from the inside, while Mossad’s wiretapping and software ensured the capability for the PNAC faction to blackmail any/all who stood in their way.

              Ultimately, the PNAC faction came to blackmail the entire administration, the most obvious manifestation of which was the administration’s total silence during the Lebanon and Gaza campaigns. Somehow, so far, they’ve been unable to compel the US to nuke Iran, but it’s not for lack of trying.

              • Leen says:

                And with Clinton as Secretary of State and Dennis Ross as the envoy to Iran they may still be successful.

                Few whispers in the MSM about Amdocs, Verint, Comverse, Aipac/Rosen/Weissman espionage investigation. Basically in lock down in the MSM.

                • plunger says:

                  Cheney stowed Kobi Alexander away in the witness protection program. The equally big question….where is mastermind, enabler, DOD comptroller, traitor and $7 TRILLION thief, Dov Zakheim?

      • quake says:

        is there any reason not to think that pelosi didn’t want to impeach? i can’t think of any.

        I’m sure she calculated that it would be a waste of time because all the Rethugs in the Senate would vote to acquit, so a 2/3 majority would be impossible. But it would have been worthwhile for the House to i,peach anyway, to get stuff on the record. And the public firestorm might have moved a few Rethug Senators. But that’s all moot now. But it doesn’t mean they shouldn’t prosecute and investigate now.

  35. Hugh says:

    Blair says he will not support any surveillance program that goes against the law. (Lot of leeway there but still hopeful)

    Against torture.

    For closing Guantanamo.

  36. Hugh says:

    This is the relevant section from Blair’s written statement

    The second part of building trust is to carry out the mission of the Intelligence Community in a manner consistent with our Nation’s values, consistent with our Constitution and consistent with the rule of law. The intelligence agencies of the United States must respect the privacy and civil liberties of the American people, and they must adhere to the rule of law.

    Lawful Surveillance, Lawful Detention and Interrogation

    In a dangerous world, government agencies need authority to collect intelligence on terrorists before they strike, in order to protect the American people. But in a free society, that authority cannot be unlimited. It must be exercised pursuant to law. I do not and will not support any surveillance activities that circumvent established processes for their lawful authorization. I believe in the importance of review and regulation of the use of those surveillance authorities. I believe in the importance of independent monitoring, including by the Congress, to prevent abuses and protect civil liberties.

    http://intelligence.senate.gov/090122/blair.pdf

    • selise says:

      I do not and will not support any surveillance activities that circumvent established processes for their lawful authorization

      my bold.

      well, that just brings us back to the question: what processes did bushco establish?

    • FreedomNow says:

      And he will find out that you can’t do it that way in the world of intelligence. So it will quietly stay the way it is under different name and aegis…

      • Hugh says:

        If the Constitution means nothing for you, I am surprised you even show up here and make comments. You seem big on defending this country but not anything it stands for. So why do you even bother?

        • FreedomNow says:

          Preserving the SYSTEM the Constitution set up and the values it meant to the Framers is extremely important to me. In my mind, the folks who just took office are the ones trying to destroy it.

    • Leen says:

      National Security = access to oil supplies. East Timor has plenty off of the coast.

      Wonder if Feinstein will ask about the use of contractors conducting the “enhanced interrogation techniques”. She focused on this during the Holder hearing

  37. reader says:

    wow.

    cheneyco ONLY had to have everyone *thinking* he could get to them … even with false charges … to have an impact on collective bahaviour.

    remember when many of us (including me, and no one could be interested in anything i’m doing: i am a recluse who reads ONLY politics) got a really creepy feeling we were being spied on? the atmosphere does the job. i was scared.

    the fact that they could actually search raw data for particular people takes it one step further. i think it will come out: who and why, including pelosi. forget congress: it will take obama, saying ”we didn’t know this before.”

    Blair has to say he will follow ”established procedures” to be responsible. i do not doubt obama will move to address this. he does not need the secrecy. he is already showing that, removing FOIA from presidents. obama knows the secrecy creates bigger problems … like torture hidden for years and now we have a huge mess that involves too many people.

    remember when wh senior staff (& cheney?) were actually saying for awhile that they would charge journalists under the terrorism laws for reporting leaks? remember? how many journalists just stopped taking calls from anyone at that point??

  38. selise says:

    blair is asked about his role wrt east timor. whoever it was who was asking the questions (i didn’t catch the name and am not sure i recognize the voice) asks for copies of the communications blair references in his defense. i will be very interested in looking for allan nairn’s take on blair’s testimony today.

  39. R.H. Green says:

    “WE know what you did”.

    We don’t know any such thing, nor do you. You may turn out to be correct in your hypothsis, but still, it’s only a guess. I’ve noticed a tendency for you to claim to know things and to “know” the “truth” about things, but I reccommend you back up and consider the differece between knowing and speculating, and between truth and speculation.

  40. klynn says:

    As I’ve been hinting, I did my small part in the hopes of accountability today; hopefully I’ll have the video done to explain tomorrow.

    EW, you’re driving me crazy with this note! When you do your part, it involves dissecting docs and writing amazing books/posts…Now video? Just answer one question, “Does Tinker Bell have a role in your video?”

    And based on trolling here, I must have hit on something earlier @ 33.

    @41—Yep totally agree!

  41. Hugh says:

    Just stepped out of the room. Did Blair just say he doesn’t want the Army Field Manual to be used by our enemies to learn how to resist interrogation? If so, this would sound like the loophole that Obama talked about.

  42. Leen says:

    Hello Senator Levin “reduces our prestige and leadership” How about the use of torture reduces our moral integrity and conscience

    • hackworth1 says:

      Reduces our Prestige and Leadership is some awfully weak Tea.
      If the US tortures, then the US is a big ol’ hypocrite. Of course, the US kills poor people to extract resources to sell to poor people.

  43. orionATL says:

    1. it’s clear from this that telecom immunity was essential to the survival of the companies. without it, i’d guess their liabilites would have been insumountable.

    2. it’s bad enough that the spying occurrred,and that it was apparently universal,

    but the real question of interst is what was the spying “used” for in terms of ameican politics. in particular, did the whitehouse receive copies of conversations of political opponents.

    3. political phone spying is not new to the repulican party.

    4. oh, and wait til it sinks in with our soldiers that their conversations home were overheard.

    5. look for obama to try to difuse this, not out of sympathy with the spying, but because this is the sort og explosive story that might overtake his admin’s chosen messages.

    • bmaz says:

      1. it’s clear from this that telecom immunity was essential to the survival of the companies. without it, i’d guess their liabilites would have been insumountable.

      That is not clear in the least. In fact, I challenge every ounce of that statement. “Immunity” was, and is, 100% about covering the Bush regime NOT the telcos. The proposition that it was needed for the poor telcos is rubbish; they were already protected.

  44. behindthefall says:

    When I ask Google to find articles for me, does the Google-droid go off and query a database in the “traditional” sense, or does it do, um, something else to winnow a heap augmented by memories of results from similar past requests it has seen?

    ‘Cause if Google isn’t “just” a gigantic traditional database (and for some reason I had the impression it was not), then not having a database in the strict sense seems to me to be more an efficiency than a handicap.

  45. Leen says:

    Go Whitehouse. Colonel Janet Karpinski brought up the use of outside contratcrs at Abu Gharib during all of her interviews

  46. reader says:

    boy oh boy: we really need to change the culture that says we HAVE to have a way to MAKE them all talk and we HAVE to have those interrogation procedures kept secret … so let’s make new ways to torture??? … well, that’s where the argument leads.

    we need a radical shift away from all these forms of abuse. the humane practices ARE available and they work.

  47. oldtree says:

    How come we are so smart? How come we can figure out that they were tapping anyone and everyone? How come DiFi caved to pressure? How about Jello Jay, How about Harry Reid? They all changed their positions 180 at times during these years didn’t they? How come we knew they were lying and our representatives said that just couldn’t happen.

    How many people were blackmailed with the information gathered by the illegal wiretaps and communication bundling? Let’s look back……

    • plunger says:

      Conyers was ABSOLUTELY blackmailed. The basic instructions to all were to focus only on the administration’s wrong doing, but not the connections to Abramoff/AIPAC.

      Speaking of blackmail, how did it come to pass that the entire AIPAC/Franklin spy trial has been stopped – forever?

      • wigwam says:

        Speaking of blackmail, how did it come to pass that the entire AIPAC/Franklin spy trial has been stopped – forever?

        IIRC, Franklin was convicted and is now serving time.

          • wigwam says:

            Per the Wikipedia:

            A U.S. government indictment alleges that Pollack provided information to former American Israel Public Affairs Committee (AIPAC) employees Steve J. Rosen and Keith Weissman during the AIPAC espionage scandal.[8]

            I’ve read that Pollack is now a high ranking person in Hillary’s staff, as is his former boss Martin Indyk.

            • Leen says:

              I believe Kenneth Pollack is USGO 1 in the Aipac/Rosen espionage investigation. David Satterfield allegedly USGO 2

              MSM in complete lockdown when it comes to this critical investigation

        • Leen says:

          Rosen and Weissman running free. The only MSMer to even whisper anything about this 5 time delayed trial and investigation was Chris Matthews. Not Olberman, Not Maddow…. Matthews. He seemed to be slipping it in a few years ago. Not a mention since

    • Rayne says:

      They knew. I think the issue of blackmail is germane, although it was more like extortion.

      Note Tice’s comment about handwriting notes.

      Remember that Jello Jay handwrote a note, too; he didn’t dictate a memo, didn’t write one into his calendar, didn’t send himself an email, but he documented his dissent.

      How many other handwritten notes out there are there?

    • tbsa says:

      DiFi made deals to keep her war profiteer husband in business. At one point there was talk of an investigation into mister DiFi. All of the sudden she was onboard the presidents wiretapping program. And poof the investigation went away. DiFi is nothing more than a DINO. She needs to go. I haven’t voted for that hag the last two times she was up for election.

  48. Leen says:

    Feingold “do you commit” to investigate?

    How in the hell can our Reps come to any conclusions if they do not have access to the whole program? Still have that image of Biden, Kerry, Kennedy, Boxer, Chaffee demanding access to the NSA intercepts during the John Bolton nomination hearings

  49. behindthefall says:

    Anybody else think that the latest batch of trolls tend to have names that all look as though they were dreamt up by the same algorithm? Two English words correctly spelled, both capitalized. We had “TraditionalConcervative”. You can probably think of others.

  50. Leen says:

    Thank goodness Feinstein does not have as much “bling” as she did during the Holder hearing last week. Everytime the light hit the bling around her neck, wrist and fingers , it was just too much of a reminder of her wealth and divisions. Very distracting.

  51. wigwam says:

    Matthews. He seemed to be slipping it in a few years ago. Not a mention since

    It was either Matthews or Buchanan who complained on the air that it was only the catholic guy, Franklin, who went to jail, while the jews involved seem to have gotten off.

  52. Leen says:

    Senator Bond “How important is it to prosecute classified intelligence leakers”?

    Whether they are journalist, officials of Aipac or members of the Bush administration (Plame) etc?

    • Gitcheegumee says:

      Interesting that Kit Bond of Misssouri decided not to run again. The Abramoff scandal continues to net staffers tied to Bond,and trials are being held this month in the Marianas Island re: Abramoff associates and Delay activites from years back.

      Daily Kos doid a spectacular piece updating the noose tightening and recent guilty pleas .Lots of singing going on right now.

      The golden goose will be Kevin Ring.

  53. plunger says:

    An even more outrageous espionage event was reported in 2006, but the MSM is allergic to reporting on it:

    At approximately 11:48 a.m. August 9th, 2006, CNN reported that Ariel Weinmann – a US Sailor – had been arrested for espionage committed on behalf of Russia. CNN intentionally lied. They know precisely that Weinmann had spied for Israel:

    This ran in the Jerusalem Post:

    Report: US sailor spied for Israel
    David Keyes, THE JERUSALEM POST

    Aug. 9, 2006

    A US Navy sailor, Ariel J. Weinmann, is suspected of spying for Israel and has been held in prison for four months, according to an article published Monday in the Saudi daily Al-Watan. It reported that Weinmann is being held at a military base in Virginia on suspicion of espionage and desertion.

    According to the navy, Weinmann was apprehended on March 26 “after it was learned that he had been listed as a deserter by his command.” Though initial information released by the navy makes no mention of it, Al-Watan reported that he was returning from an undisclosed “foreign country.” American sources close to the Defense Department told Al-Watan that Israel was the country in question.

    “The US Navy concluded Article 32 proceedings [a pretrial investigation] in the case of Fire Control Technician Third Class Ariel J. Weinmann on July 26, 2006,” Ted Brown, a media relations officer at the US Fleet Forces Command, told The Jerusalem Post on Tuesday. The US Fleet Forces Command is the “convening authority of the case… and will make the decision with respect to what charges, if any, will be referred to a general court-martial.”

    The veracity of Al-Watan’s claim that Weinmann is suspected of spying for Israel remains in question, and military and Pentagon spokesmen are remaining tightlipped. A public affairs officer at the Office of Naval Intelligence told the Post that he was unaware of the allegations against Weinmann.

    Al-Watan speculated that if Weinmann spied on behalf of the Mossad, it would be the biggest espionage case since Jonathan Pollard’s arrest. Pollard, who worked as a civilian intelligence analyst for the US Navy, was caught in 1985 and convicted of spying for Israel. He is currently serving a life sentence in the US.

    According to the navy, “Weinmann was assigned to the USS Albuquerque (SSN 706) and had deserted on or about July 3, 2005.” The Albuquerque is a Los Angeles-class attack submarine.

    Though the navy’s initial press release contained no reference to Israel, Brown stated that more detailed information about the case would be released shortly.

    http://www.jpost.com/servlet/S…..%2FPrinter

    It was scrubbed from their site in a day, and replaced with the lie invented by the Pentagon, as dutifully recounted by “asset” Barbara Starr:

    THE CNN LIE:

    http://www.cnn.com/2006/LAW/08…..index.html

    Sources: Navy sailor suspected of spying for Russia

    From Barbara Starr
    CNN Washington Bureau
    Wednesday, August 9, 2006; Posted: 1:57 p.m. EDT (17:57 GMT)

    WASHINGTON (CNN) — A sailor facing espionage and desertion charges has been held at a Norfolk, Virginia, brig since March, the U.S. Navy said Wednesday.

    Ariel Weinmann, 21, is suspected of having worked on behalf of Russia, said military sources close to the case.

    He was likely to have had access to technical manuals and other material on how submarine systems work, Navy sources said. It’s not believed that anyone else in the Navy worked with him, they said.

    The fire control technician third class, assigned to the submarine USS Albuquerque, attempted on three occasions to pass classified information to foreign agents, according to the charges against him.

    Those times include March 2005 in Bahrain; October 2005 in Vienna, Austria; and March 2006 in Mexico City, Mexico, according to the charges.

    In addition to the espionage allegations, Weinmann also faces desertion charges, which could result in the death penalty. He is accused of deserting in July 2005 during his first tour of duty.

    A customs agent took Weinmann into custody March 26 at Dallas-Fort Worth International Airport when he tried to re-enter the United States.

    The case is the second one involving spying allegations by Russia against the U.S. military. The Defense Department has said it believes Russia collected information about American intelligence in Iraq from U.S. Central Command in Doha, Qatar, in 2003.

    I laughed out loud at Ms. Starr’s ridiculous report.

  54. Mary says:

    Sounds a lot like segregated/separated collections that wouldn’t have proceeded under normal law and NSA procedures were then the subject of the recurring “military order” allowing for carte blanche eavesdropping as under CIC/military powers.

  55. Leen says:

    Blair Accountability “absolutely key to give lower level participants confidence”

    DiFi “contractors 27% of the interrogators”
    DiFi “Unacceptable”

  56. Knut says:

    This is in EPU-land, so maybe I’ll reiterate the point if this topic comes up on a new thread (which it undoubtedly will). If any media pundit and announcers’ names are released with respect to the tapping, (as the two mentioned in EW’s post have), there are going to be questions asked whether they knew it, and whether the Bush’s blackmailed them. Given the way Rove got his grimy little fingernails into just about every corner of the government, it wouldn’t surprise me one bit.

  57. brenda says:

    Why do you let this antisemitic piece of shit Plunger vomit all over your blog? It’s why I don’t come here often and likely will never come back.

      • brenda says:

        Interesting, you assume that because I can see through your paper thin conspiracy crap I must be one a them dirty Joos huh? You make me sick. That you are permitted to post makes me wonder what happened to FDL.

        • Leen says:

          James Bamford, Seymour Hersh “The Stovepipe”, Carl Cameron, F.B.I investigators, Stephen Green “Serving Two Flags”, Bill and Kathleen Christison (retired Cia analyst) “A Rose By Another Name” etc all must be part of that “thin conspiracy crap”

          • brenda says:

            “James Bamford, Seymour Hersh “The Stovepipe”, Carl Cameron, F.B.I investigators, Stephen Green “Serving Two Flags”, Bill and Kathleen Christison (retired Cia analyst) “A Rose By Another Name” etc all must be part of that “thin conspiracy crap””

            Do you do parties? ‘Cause your ability to vomit on command is impressive. You forgot the trilateral commission, the CFR, the Builderburgers, the Illuminati and my favorite the Lizard People.

            Yes, it’s all bullshit. There may be ahem… “chunks” of truth in your vomitus but the bile is unmistakable.

            • Leen says:

              Yes your “bile” is “unmistakable”

              Listening to the Tice interview again. Wonder if the NSA intercepts that Biden and the gang were demanding to access will ever become available. Many asserted that the NSA had been spying on Colin Powell and communications with Iran

              • brenda says:

                Well Leen then you are deeply mistaken. My enmity is reserved for cowards like Plungeur and the other trolls here. What happens is a case like this is you get the typical nutjobs like those just above and then the paranoid conspiracy freaks like Plungeur. Because CT’ers are not obviously rightwing they tend to get less scrutiny than they ought to.

                Your friend Plungeur is an antisemite and a paranoid moron.

                This is what REAL investigative reporting looks like:
                http://www.bollyn.com/index/?id=10797

                By all means take a good look at Bollyn’s “journalism” Plungeur is so enamored of. Read a few of his articles, it’s pretty obvious. The antisemitism positively reeks.

                That Marcy Wheeler allows this filth on her blog says something about her professionalism in my opinion.

                  • plunger says:

                    If I hadn’t seen the exact same tactic used repeatedly (literally dozens of times) in recent years in an attempt to restrict speech and topics on any number of blogs, it might be more credible. There is a methodology and pattern that they follow. It’s taught.

                • Leen says:

                  Really no need to call folks who have a different opinion “nutjobs” “pukes” etc. Especially when they back up their statements with information that can be verified.

                  Marcy is one of the more brave bloggers and has allowed conversations to take place that other so called progressive bloggers are terrified by.

                  I just hope the mucky mucks invite or we lobby for her or Jane to be in those Obama/Rahm Emmanuel press conferences.

        • Leen says:

          Go check out the Selected files of the Aipac Rosen Weissman investigation. Go read or google the indictment “USA V. Steven Rosen and Keith Weissman” All at FAS (federation of Scientist) website

          • brenda says:

            Go check out the Selected files of the Aipac Rosen Weissman investigation. Go read or google the indictment “USA V. Steven Rosen and Keith Weissman” All at FAS (federation of Scientist) website

            Oh for fuck sake are you all this stupid? The Federation of Scientists? The “911 was an inside job” nutjobs? Yes, I know I know, anything a man with a lab coat and clipboard or a website with the words “It’s Science!” must be true!!111010101111!!!!!

      • plunger says:

        This is the way Hasbara works online – via Megaphone. They try to compel the community to ban the truth teller, while working behind the scenes to bombard the blog owner with e-mails demanding action. I’ve seen this game fifty times. It’s an ADL operation. Standard procedure.

        • brenda says:

          Plungeur, your paranoia is out of control if you think a poor white woman of German ancestry living in urban Minneapolis is working for the ADL. Has it ever occurred to you that some people have moral standards? That your antisemitic spew offends many people?

          You are no “truth teller”. You’re a paranoid schizophrenic freaking out because yes, Bush did spy on people. Yet from that you conclude that 911 was an inside job. You are delusional. Does your psychiatrist know you’re off your meds?

          • R.H. Green says:

            “Does your psychiatrist know you’re off your meds?”

            There’s that ad hominem stuff again. I’m all for an exchange of ideas, and beliefs, but there are rules for civil and logical discourse. I’ve tried to reason with plunger too, but he dismisses me callously. Nevertheless, to attempt to render an even competent psychological diagnosis of a co-debater is just not appropriate discourse. This is especially true, as I have pointed out on other occasions, when you are not in position to gather the relevant facts to back up such assertions.

  58. Mary says:

    141 – what wouldn’t you give to have someone answer, “At this time we have no plans to prosecute Sen. Hatch for his public revelations about the wiretaps on Bin Laden’s phone, and with respect to whistleblowers for illegal or misused plans and powers, we plan to reward their vigilance.”

    – FreedomKnows

  59. JohnJ says:

    I have been saying all along, just based on behavior, this looks like blackmail. Making noises but never following through, strange withdrawal of support, etc., etc.

    I’m glad my “speculation” is on its way to being confirmed.

    The problem is that the “victims” have a vested interest in covering for the perpetrator; typical extortion conundrum.

    • readerOfTeaLeaves says:

      Yup, you always seemed to have a sixth sense but it was the best explanation for a lot of what we were seeing. And continues to be the best explanation.

      Which raises more questions, like “What was with Trent Lott suddenly resigning about a year ago?” and related issues.

      Someone like Larry Craig would have been very, very easy to compromise and control. Ditto Vitter.

      • R.H. Green says:

        You know, I recall a strange report from…name escapes at present (Florida congressman cought in scandal involving congressional pages), in which he declared that he had wanted to resign from his seat in 2004 IIRC, but Karl Rove wouldn’t let him. Frankly I was startled to think that the power was so aligned.

          • R.H. Green says:

            That’s him. Can you imagine that? A people’s representative unable to drop out of government life because his party’s political operative refused to let him go. Shows where his alliegence was.

        • readerOfTeaLeaves says:

          Great dot connecting, Foley had slipped off my radar screen for the moment.
          But I suspect that there’s a case to be made that Rover had a very strong hand in selecting candidates that he could control through blackmail. Abramoff probably gave out the carrots (female hookers, male hookers, golf, drugs), then told Rove who had which carrots. Wouldn’t surprise me if they met on street corners and whispered the information, then Rover went back to the WH and figured out what kind of blackmail would best control each of the electeds.

          And what that implies about GWBush is seriously alarming.

  60. Gitcheegumee says:

    The Abramoff Scandal is Expanding: More GOP woes for 2009…
    by dengre
    Thu Jan 01, 2009 at 09:29:18 PM PST

    Quietly, the professionals at the Department of Justice have been working this massive scandal—that is complex by design—to build cases that move from the outer edges to the heart of political corruption in Washington DC. Abramoff is just a doorway in—not an endpoint—and prosecutors are zeroing in on some big fish in a corrupt stream.

    .

    The US Attorney in Maryland had to be tasked with investigating the DOJ in Washington DC because Abramoff and his team had infiltrated the Justice Department. There is evidence in the Abramoff billing records, documents released from Court cases and from Congressional investigations that former Attorney General John Ashcroft may have exposure is the scandal. Two of his former staffers are involved. One has pleaded guilty and the other has been indicted, his trial should begin later this year.

    In the past, I have written about the 750,000 pages of Abramoff scandal documents that were gathered by John McCain and the Senate’s Indian Affairs Committee investigation of the Abramoff scandal. That is a lot of documents, but it is a small pile of paper when compared to the documents gathered by the Department of Justice in their ongoing investigation of the scandal.

    Vaults! The government has a vault filled with Abramoff scandal emails. And then there are other documents. So just how many document has the Government given Ring access to as part of the discovery process? Well a response letter from Ring’s lawyers provides some details:

    Since the government began providing discovery in this case — which now totals eighty-three disks and over three million documents, we have been working diligently through the materials while still awaiting receipt of the charts and indexes referenced in the Notice. Our efforts have continued despite the fact that the government has been unable to provide answers to basic questions, such as the location within the three million documents of the “54,925 emails” of Mr. Ring referenced by the government during their PowerPoint presentation.

    These exchanges basically mean that the Department of Justice is sitting on millions and millions of emails and pages of documents. Hell, they have almost 55,000 emails that Kevin Ring sent or received. Add to that thousands of hours of interviews and question sessions with people involved in the scandal. It is a massive pile of evidence that must have many players in the GOP trembling with fear—and sadly, a few Democrats as well. Regardless of their Party each and every one of these players in this scandal needs to be exposed and banished from policy and politics forever. They are dirtballs, each and every one. No exceptions.

    Trevor Blackann is a former staffer to Congressman Roy Blunt, and Senator Kit Bond who went through the revolving door to become a lobbyist. Blackann (along with Ring and Coughlin) tightens the link between Missouri Republicans and Jack Abramoff. He plead guilty to his role in the scandal on November 20, 2008 and this may have been a contributing factor to Blunt’s decision to leave the GOP House leadership team for the 111th Congress. Blackann is married to Laura Brookshire, a former Tom DeLay staffer and media spokesperson for Richard Pombo and John Doolittle. Blackann is cooperating with the DOJ and has yet to be sentenced for his crimes——————————–daily kos

  61. JaneaneTheAcerbicGoblin says:

    Why would they listen to journalists’ phone calls, especially the American ones, who kissed Bush’s ass for 8 years, and are now saying “he wasn’t that bad”? The MSM love Bush, and still do. They would never betray the object of their affection.

  62. timr says:

    This should not be a surprise to anyone. I was stationed in WaDC from 71-73 when the FBI was active in domestic spying against anyone who was against Nixon. The place where I worked(…)was also involved in this operation. Just as a BTW, the number of messages and phone calls generated per day within the US defies either collection or review by either the worlds fastest computers or the limited number of people. Even if looking just for key words or phrases, the numbers of false hits would be incalcuable.There is no way that every call message or internet msg could be placed in a data base, the numbers are just to big. It would take a very large number of super computers working 24 hrs a day just to sift thru the mass of messages. The most paranoid person should be able to understand that the technology to do this does not exist, you would need hundreds of thousands of people to check what the computers pulled out. Sorry, just not feasible.

    • NMvoiceofreason says:

      Just a few comments. NSA has for many years had “traffic master” software, which got a big boost from the TIA (Total Information Awareness) add-ons. Suffice it to say that all publicly obtainable records (just ask any police officer how much they can find out without a warrant) is stored in a database. Records come in – emails, phone numbers – and are matched with those databases. Records which have a “traffic link” are then selected for analysis. Note that to this point, everything is perfectly legal – and will continue under Obama (see pen register trace in case law). Now Cristiane Amanpour or anyone who gets called by AlQaeda has all of their calls “linked”, so that second level links can be followed. Add the traditional policies of the “watch list”, and the first level links then become very obvious. Why do you think the MSM was so careful in criticizing Bush/Cheney? Because they actually read Bamford’s books.

      If all second level links are recorded, then an actual intercept can be performed, where a human or computer “listens/reads” the message, and this is the first place where FISA actually gets involved. With american citizens, they had 72 hours to get a warrant AFTER listening to the message (I don’t know the recent changes to FISA, so they may have extended the time).

      Quakers and Journalists have always been targeted by Republicans. The Maryland State Troopers even had them declared a “terrorist organization” because they opposed the war. Be VERY proud of that, Maryland.

        • NMvoiceofreason says:

          Despite that, he devoted intelligence and FBI assets to Society of Friends infiltration, as shown in Bamford’s book “The Puzzle Palace”.

          The modern neocons are no different.

          • Mithras61 says:

            “THE PREAMBLE
            We the People of the United States, in Order to form a
            more perfect Union, establish Justice, insure domestic Tranquility,
            provide for the common defence, promote the general
            Welfare
            , and secure the Blessings of Liberty to ourselves and
            our Posterity, do ordain and establish this Constitution for the
            United States of America.”

            I believe that this could be cited as authority to perform quite a large number of the things that “Conservatives” claim aren’t authorized. Additionally, the power to regulate commerce as listed in Article I could easily be construed to cover commerce involving paid health care. It could also be regulated through the “interstate commerce” clause, as many insurers are presently operating across state lines. I’m reasonably confidant that there are other sections and clauses that could be construed to grant Congress the authority to make laws regarding health care, including laws requiring that pre-existing conditions limitations be disallowed, and providing for health care for everyone.

            • NMvoiceofreason says:

              I think the comment you are replying to was actually 209, just so people don’t get confused. I agree with you in principle, but would make the following argument for the Conservatives without the means to make it for themselves:

              The preamble is nothing more than a statement of goals. No portion of the government is assigned to promoting “the general welfare”, and thus, was not seen by the Framers as a Duty of government, but simply one of the reasons why they wanted a better government. By leaving the people alone, not regulating them, and staying out of their lives as much as possible, government would promote the general welfare by letting the people themselves decide what is best for them, each, on their own, without the compulsion or dictates of the State. So the argument that healthcare, or any mandate for same, emanates from the Constitution is simply specious.

              To which you reply:

              Typical Conservative fraud. Article I, Section 8.

              The Congress shall have Power To lay and collect Taxes, Duties, Imposts and Excises, to pay the Debts and provide for the common Defence and general Welfare of the United States; but all Duties, Imposts and Excises shall be uniform throughout the United States;

              Congress has this power, just as much as the ability to create an Army, Navy, and Air Force and to provide budgets for them – not just that, but it has THE DUTY to do it. As does every Republican Congressman and Senator, if their oaths mean anything.

              • MarkH says:

                Congress has this power, just as much as the ability to create an Army, Navy, and Air Force

                Careful, there were no airplanes or space ships in those days, so the Air Force and Space Command have to be under some other umbrella of authorization.

                Something similar could be said of a nuclear force. Is it part of the Army or what?

                BTW, there’s no mention (SFAICR) of corporations in the Constitution. Perhaps TC would like to eliminate them too. It’s sad when so-called Conservatives don’t have the ability to understand abstract ideas like “nation’s defense” or “welfare of the people” and understand that many things can be done to serve that purpose.

      • MarkH says:

        Quakers and Journalists have always been targeted by Republicans. The Maryland State Troopers even had them declared a “terrorist organization” because they opposed the war.

        That’s another great example of Republicans (I assume they were) not knowing a hole in the ground from their …

        Obviously a ‘terrorist’ is one who terrorizes people so they will give in to demands. It’s a blackmailing of sorts…give us what we want or else.

        Obviously opposing war isn’t blackmailing anyone or threatening violence at all — it’s pacifism sometimes and just plain good sense some times, but not terrorism.

        Why do all the Right-wingers not know the meaning of important words?

    • Rayne says:

      It’s a completely different world than it was in the 70’s.

      Ever heard of Google? Do you know how much information their computers process every day? Think about it: indexing/reindexing websites, email, advertising, and now phone calls through 800-411-GOOG and smartphone users of Google…

      Or how about the credit card companies — how much data do you think they handle every day?

      And what info systems trundle all this information to/from ISPs, search engines, websites, banking servers?

      Gathering all communications is not at all impossible.

  63. Gitcheegumee says:

    Results 1 – 10 of about 37,100 for Abramoff Scandal is Expanding. (0.10 seconds)
    Search ResultsDaily Kos: The Abramoff Scandal is Expanding: More GOP woes for … The Abramoff Scandal is Expanding: More GOP woes for 2009… by dengre. Thu Jan 01, 2009 at 09:29:18 PM PST. For many the Jack Abramoff scandal is old news, …
    http://www.dailykos.com/story/2009/1/…../28/679346 – 406k – Cached – Similar pages _____________________________________________

    This article is QUITE detailed and a SUPERB piece of investigation. Definitely worthy of filing away for future reading.

    Didn’t Abramoff represent some of the telecom companies,also?

  64. pseudonymousinnc says:

    I don’t think it was just metadata. In spite of what timr says, there are computers that do massive simultaneous real time processing (including analogue/digital conversion) made for a small, targetted client base. FISA was built around the idea of active surveillance — the guy in the van with an earpiece and a carton of Chesterfields. That’s where the wiggle-room could be found for filtering.

  65. FrankProbst says:

    Now that Tice has confirmed that all those journalists who have been poo-pooing the blogosphere for its concerns about the program in the last three years were being wiretapped, we may finally get some large scale press attention on this.

    Oh, I’m sure David Gregory will be all over it.
    /snark

  66. plunger says:

    A Google News search for the term Russell Tice returns the following list of results at this minute:

    http://news.google.com/news?hl…..1295817591

    The total absence of mainstream media coverage of this story is evidence of what? Editorial Control at the top management level. Why? On whose behalf?

  67. Gitcheegumee says:

    RE; DiFi and hubby Richard Blum–

    ——————————————————————————–

    Union pension loses big money under Blum’s management.

    —————————————————————————————————————————————————————

    China-Gate’s Smoking Gun

    “Feinstein’s financial ties to the communist Chinese and COSCO include her husband, Richard Blum.”

    “Blum is reported to be heavily tied to the PRC through his far east investment firm, Newbridge Capitol Corp. Blum’s partner at Newbridge, Peter Kwok, also served as a consultant to COSCO, and COSCO Hong Kong Holdings, a company owned by Chinese billionaire Li Ka-Shing. In 1989, Kwok helped CITIC and Li Ka- Shing raise $120 million to buy a HUGHES built communications satellite for a company also part owned by Chinese Generals.”

    ——————————————————————————–

    “Richard C. Blum and his wife, U.S. Senator Diane Feinstein, work as a team and have made millions through varied schemes that include some questionable deals with Red China. Richard Blum gave former president Bill Clinton a lot of money in return for very lucrative business favors through the U.S. government sponsored Overseas Private Investment Corporation (OPIC). Richard Blum was also one of the persons that Bill Clinton allowed to sleep in the Lincoln Room of the White House.

    ——————————————————————————–

    “”She’s a complete fraud,” says one longtime congressional staffer. “She has no interest in human rights problems in China.”

    Feinstein’s romance with China dates to the 1970s, when she was mayor of San Francisco and became close friends with Jiang Zemin, then mayor of Beijing and now China’s president. In explaining her interest in U.S.-China relations, Feinstein has jokingly said, “In my last life I was Chinese.”

    It is not possible to confirm this, but her passion for Beijing is more likely tied to the fact that her husband in her current life, merchant banker Richard Blum, has substantial business and real estate interests in China. He manages $750 million in investments for about 70 companies, with a large chunk of that amount tied up in China. Blum is also a director of Shanghai Pacific Partners, a major import-export firm.

    In 1994, Feinstein led the effort to renew most-favored-nation trade status for China at a time when her husband was preparing to invest $150 million of his clients’ money, along with $2 million to $3 million of his own, in China.

    Blum also sits on the board of directors of Northwest Airlines, a company in which he holds a 6 percent share. His interest in the firm may be one reason that China’s rulers have been so friendly towards the company. Northwest obtained the first non-stop flights from the United States to China about a year ago. The company also recently formed an “alliance” with Air China, the big government-run airline, which means the two firms will cooperate in areas such as scheduling, marketing and promotions, as well as carrying each others’ passengers.”

    ——————————————————————————–

    “Mr. Richard C. Blum (Co-chairman)

    Chairman, Blum Capital Partners

    Mr. Blum currently serves as a director on numerous boards, including CB Richard Ellis, Korea First Bank, Northwest Airlines Corporation, Playtex Products Inc. and URS Corporation. He also serves as a director of Glenborough Realty Trust, Inc., and is Co-Chairman of Newbridge Capital. He is a former director of the following public companies: National Education Corporation, Taft Broadcasting Corporation, Advanced Systems, Inc., Triad Systems, Inc., Sumitomo Bank of California, Princeville Development Corporation, and the Shaklee Corporation. Mr. Blum is the founder and Chairman of the American Himalayan Foundation, and is Honorary Consul to Mongolia and the Kingdom of Nepal.”

    • Gitcheegumee says:

      GE nears deal for Shenzhen bank stake – International Herald Tribune Newbridge Capital, which bought an 18 percent stake in December, … million is not going to relieve Shenzhen Bank of its capital shortage,” Hu said. ..

      http://www.iht.com/articles/2005/09/29/bloomberg/sxge.php – 38k –
      Newbridge wins control of Shenzhen bank … Newbridge Capital will acquire 348.103 million shares, Shenzhen Bank said in the statement published in the official Securities Times …
      http://www.chinadaily.com.cn/english/…..335583.htm – 14k – Cached – Similar pages –

      US Investor to Take Control of Shenzhen Bank A US investment firm specializing in strategic Asian investment, Newbridge Capital, plans to take a controlling stake in Shenzhen Development Bank. …
      http://www.chinaembassycanada.org/eng/xwdt/t127990.htm – 10k

      • readerOfTeaLeaves says:

        I see your point, but on the other hand, it’s not at all surprising that a San Francisco biz person would be doing biz with China. I mean… if there were any city in the nation with strong links to China, I’d expect it to be S.F.

        Not saying you aren’t right.
        Just saying that I’d think it was weirder if they weren’t doing biz with the Far East.

        • Gitcheegumee says:

          Thanks for the reply.

          No,it would not be unreasonable all things considered. However, the depth,breadth, and span of these ties is of ultimate import-no pun intended.

          Specifically,Li Ka Shing.

          Owns Hutchison Whampao Ports in addition to EXTENSIVE HOLDINGS AROUND THE WORLD.

          Check out Lazaro Cardenas,the Panamanian Canal.

          He was also the entity who was involved in Global Crossing debacle some years back during Clinton years in WH.

  68. TraditionalConservative says:

    Are you guys really that paranoid that you thought he was listening intently to your phone conservations with Aunt Karen?

    • Leen says:

      I actually felt this way when I first started reading about this wiretapping program. Really. Tap away if you think my actions of vigilance (that the constitution protects) threatens the majority of Americans or National Security…tap away via lawful means.

      But when the appropriate part of the intelligence community does not know about the program or the appropriate members of Congress do not have access or oversight then something is really fishy. Our Reps having access to the breadth and depth of such a program is critically important to me. That is their responsibility and it is obviously one to take seriously. I believe that is why we allegedly have three co-equal branches of government

      Bob Edwards interviewed some expert on data mining and how it can be a threat to peasants privacy and freedom. At his website.

      And Bmaz has often pointed out that the telcos all ready have protection. So what the hell have they been hiding. Russell Tice helps us find out

    • TraditionalConservative says:

      Liberals violate the constitution everyday, but all of a sudden you’re worried about it? LOL!

      Where is the constitutional provision for “universal” healthcare? Where does the Constitution give the feds power to have a “Stimulus” package? Huh?

        • TraditionalConservative says:

          Why don’t you answer what I said? Where in the Constitution does the government have the right to control our healthcare?

          • Leen says:

            Would access to health care come under “justice for all”. I don’t know. But when they allowed all of the religious voodoo during the Inauguration I feel that opens the door to saying Jesus would want all people to have access to health care. As Micheal Moore chose to spin it in “Sicko”. MM “instead of calling it a socialized health care system, let’s call it a “Christianized” health care system.

            By the way. What the hell happened to the separation of church and state. I was raised Catholic (I appreciate being brought up with some of the core beliefs, still trying to leave the voodoo behind) But I was really insulted for Muslims, Jews, Agnostics, Atheist, Buddhist etc when they said the Lords Prayer. What a bunch of hogwash

        • readerOfTeaLeaves says:

          Well, FWIW, I’ve always figured that there was some kind of rough correlation between the threads that drew a lot of troll activity, and whatever EW (or you) write about — the scarier for the BushCheney cabal, the more trolls showed up.

          So I interpret their avid appearance here as ‘information’.
          They just can’t stand it when she gets close to the nerve, and anything associated with surveillance always seems to generate a flurry of insults.
          Rather entertaining, I must say.

          Or maybe it’s just a Cheetos marketing ploy…?

          • bmaz says:

            Heh heh, it is hard to tell. Either way, it was wasting digital bits here. We got work to do now that we have a real government to work with.

            • NMvoiceofreason says:

              Wrong, bmaz. We don’t get the Constitution out of the Bush/Cheney shredder until each and every person who broke the law and violated the Constitution under color of law is serving time for their crimes. “Moving forward” doesn’t get us back to the rule of law.

              • bmaz says:

                What in the world are you talking about?? My comment at 214 was about bouncing a freaking troll that was wasting time on this blog’s threads. Nothing more, nothing less. Whatever you read into that comment most certainly not there.

                • NMvoiceofreason says:

                  The comment at 208 and your comment at 214 may have been taken out of context. The two, when read together, seem to imply that prosecuting Bush/Cheney crimes is unimportant and that we are “moving forward”. I hate that phrase. It is like saying 1600 murders can go unprosecuted, just because they were committed by Republicans. I don’t think that is your position from the other threads I’ve read, nor your wonderful posts. But read in isolation, those two comments say “nothing to see here, moving forward”, which just gets my goat.

                  If I misunderstood you, I’m sorry.

                  • bmaz says:

                    Heh heh, no problem here. As to accountability, trust me, I am not the issue. I have been wailing on that issue since Emptywheel was The Next Hurrah. You will get no grief from me for advocating accountability. Heck, I still am not convinced Holder is strong enough on it, and that was one of my early concerns with him

            • Leen says:

              “wasting digital bits” to some. Critical issue for others who are interested in real National Security threats and why some of these critical issues get the light of the media and others do not.

              One resounding chorus I am hearing from Bmaz, Emptywheel, Tavis Smiley, Amy Goodman, Medea Benjaman, attorneys who are pushing the “Bring the Guard Home, It’s the Law” movement (they were at Bus Boys and Poets last night in D.C.) folks out on the streets. This is no time to back down what ever issues are most important to folks.

              As Obama said “make me do it”

      • randiego says:

        hey you’re back! All stocked up on Cheetos? Sweet!

        Liberals violate the constitution everyday, but all of a sudden you’re worried about it? LOL!

        Can’t wait to hear this! Please do share!

        Where is the constitutional provision for “universal” healthcare? Where does the Constitution give the feds power to have a “Stimulus” package? Huh?

        Where does the Constitution provide for maintaining a nuclear arsenal? Huh? Huh? What about that? Huh?
        .
        Wait! I know! isn’t it that The Constitution provides for the Govt to levy a tax, and for the Congress (us) to tell them how to spend it?

        And what the hell is a “Traditional Conservative” anyway? Do you even know?

        • TraditionalConservative says:

          A nuclear arsenal is part of national defense and a military, clearly mandated by the Constitution.

          • NMvoiceofreason says:

            I take it then that you are not a strict constructionist, limiting the Constitution to only what is said within the four corners of the document. That is the only way you can adapt the Constitution to regulation of power, FCC regulation of airwaves, etc. And perhaps you can explain exactly which rights are covered by the Ninth Amendment: “The enumeration in the Constitution, of certain rights, shall not be construed to deny or disparage others retained by the people.” Or why the whole scheme described in the post we are commenting upon violates the Fourth Amendment: “The right of the people to be secure in their persons, houses, papers, and effects, against unreasonable searches and seizures, shall not be violated, and no Warrants shall issue, but upon probable cause, supported by Oath or affirmation, and particularly describing the place to be searched, and the persons or things to be seized.”

            • brenda says:

              voiceofreason, why do you reply to it? Did you know that they get paid for every response? You are putting money in it’s pocket. Why would you want to do that?

              • NMvoiceofreason says:

                Because it is time for the lies to stop.

                “All that is necessary for the forces of evil to triumph in the world is for enough good men and women to do nothing.”

                • brenda says:

                  “All that is necessary for the forces of evil to triumph in the world is for enough good men and women to do nothing.”

                  I am doing something. I am not feeding your wingnut trolls. I am countering your CT’er because they tend to slide under the radar.

                  I visit FDL infrequently, though I did more in the past. Back when the comments were not filled with this shit. It’s sad, FDL used to be a fun place. I came today to see what Marcy had to say but it’s unlikely I’ll ever be back soon.

                  • NMvoiceofreason says:

                    That’s sad, Brenda. I still come everyday, although I don’t comment as much as I used to do, before the “Invasion of the Trolls”.

                    It is no surprise, in one sense. Republicans have learned that words, and the web have power. They are doing their level best to stop it, or make it uncomfortable to stay and participate. I just think their replies are so badly thought through, with cherry picked facts and repetitive talking points, that it is little more than a warm-up. But some aspiring researcher might Google the phrase and find the response they need to counter the lies, misdirection, and outright fraud.

                    I’m sorry to hear of your decision. I will miss the power of your words and others who have come to rely upon your guidance will miss it. I wish you all the peace and love the Universe can bring to you on your journey. But please reconsider. We need your voice.

                    • NMvoiceofreason says:

                      No, I don’t have mods. I use Mozilla/Firefox. Why can’t the site have a comment system more like TalkLeft? Why can’t we have a rating system like NetScape did years ago? Why can’t we have the “report” buttons like they do on HuffPo? Who does the web site maintenance?

                      Just asking. What mods to you have? How did you get them? What browser do you use?

                      I know this is all off topic, but just to keep it real and relevant – I don’t think we are even close to holding these fuckers accountable yet. over two million FISA felonies (2002-2008) will go unprosecuted, because nobody cares about the Rule of Law and we are “moving forward”.

                    • NMvoiceofreason says:

                      After reconsideration, there may have been a typo in your comment, asking “Don’t you have MEDs?”

                      I don’t have my meds, and am therefore well off them now. Be warned. Be very afraid. Threat Level plaid.

                      (Hope you at least got a chuckle).

                    • MarkH says:

                      Be warned. Be very afraid. Threat Level plaid.

                      Oh no, not that. Please please don’t play the bagpipes!

        • TraditionalConservative says:

          Wrong! The Constitution only gives Congress very specific powers. The power to mandate universal healthcare isn’t among them. Neither is education, or “stimulus”, or other big spending programs “progressives” love.

    • NMvoiceofreason says:

      TraditionalConservative January 22nd, 2009 at 10:11 am
      187

      If you weren’t doing anything illegal, you have nothing to worry about.

      You have that EXACTLY backwards. By doing it, they are they ones committing the illegal action. Nobody needs to be pure as snow. And arguing for people who committed TREASON by outing a covert soldier of the Republic doesn’t bode well for your advocacy. The government has limits put on it to restrict it’s power. If you were a true conservative, trying to conserve the Republic, the Constitution, and the Nation for which it stands you would know that. Or have you never read Ronald Reagan’s “Evil Empire” speech?

      • FreedomNow says:

        Valerie Plame was a Democrat who gave to Gore masquarading as a neutral intelligence officer. It was RICHARD ARMITAGE who disclosed her….no one else. That whole thing was the most ridiculous exercise in liberal stupidity that I have ever witnessed.

        • NMvoiceofreason says:

          Just because someone participates in the political process is no reason to out her, and if you are advocating that, you are saying that unless you are a Republican you are a traitor. That argument just falls flat on its face.

          Richard Armitage was only one of numerous people who disclosed her covert status, including Rove, Libby, and others. Since Richard Armitage did not discuss his conversations about her to anyone else (per his testimony) why were their so many people out there leaking it? Do you really believe that Libby committed perjury to avoid protecting Dick Cheney from something he didn’t do? Or was the conspiracy and coverup a crime as great as the TREASON they committed in outing a covert soldier of the Republic, a “non-official cover” agent, the blackest of the black, doing damage to our ability to stop WMD throughout the world? Or are you in favor of rogue states having nuclear weapons?

          • FreedomNow says:

            Armitage supplied the data…the others simply confirmed him. I believe the jury got it wrong on Libby so I don’t believe in the gravaman of the perjury charge in the first place, which is why it’s under appeal. Also why Libby still has his Fifth Amendment rights not to testify. As far as I know, only Democrats “out” secret agents…Republicans care too much about security to do that. And re: close to the Bush/Cheney cabal…That’s laughable. The Cabal consists of the at least 35% that continues to support him, a number which will continue to grow after the Buyer’s Remorse sets in with the Bamster.

            • bmaz says:

              LibertyLee, FreedomNow, whatever. You are still the same weak hack, with the same pathetic drivel, and the same inability to know your facts or honestly relate them. Go study up and be able to get it right, or don’t waste our time. JThomason is exactly tight.

            • cinnamonape says:

              Sorry your facts are totally in error. First Libby claimed that he learned the information FROM the media…Tim Russert. That’s what he testified to before the Grand Jury. But when the Special Prosecutor showed that there was a wealth of information that showed he had foreknowledge…even Libby said that he learned the information, not from Russert, but from information supplied by the CIA via his request, and Cheney’s, to that Agency. His excuse was that he “forgot” all that in some odd form of amnesia…in which he can recall the most insipid details of events…but not the most important.

              For example, he forgot that he told Judy Miller about Plame, that there were meetings about Wilson in the VP’s office where she was mentioned. That Cheney gave him a list of talking points in which raising the issue of Wilson’s wife at the CIA was noted. And since Russert did not have access to Plame’s identity, he could not have gotten it from him to then pass on to Rove and Matt Cooper.

              The jury failed to believe Libby, but some expressed sympathy that he created this lie to protect the higher ups “who sent him to the meatgrinder”. I’m sure that Libby expected a pardon, after all, he vas just followink orders!”

            • randiego says:

              As far as I know, only Democrats “out” secret agents. Republicans care too much about security to do that.

              Hah hah hah hah!! All facts to the contrary! Back to the Cheetos!

    • MarkH says:

      If you weren’t doing anything illegal, you have nothing to worry about.

      With the advent of our ability to match DNA some lawyers set up a project to identify INNOCENT individuals on death row in prisons around the country. So far they have gotten many released.

      So, you are completely 100% wrong. Innocents have often been imprisoned.

  69. NWW1 says:

    A heads-up from Thom Hartman today:

    Its been suggested that Holder is rumored to be planning to go after Bush for illegally authorizing the TSP when Ashcroft was hospitalized and Specter is delaying it with the Marc Rich smokescreen in order to run out the clock on the statute of limitations as the deadline is March 9, 2009.
    This is an act that is under the AG’s purview and Bush’s act was illegal (shocked, I tell you)

    If true, we must turn the heat up under Specter and not let the bastard skate.

    Specter’s contact info can be obtained from callcongress.org

    That wasn’t off-topic was it?

  70. Gitcheegumee says:

    Abramoff’s NSA and Domestic Spying Scandal by leveymgWed Jan 25, 2006 at 10:25:59 AM PDT

    The National Security Scandals of Jack Abramoff – Part II(Pt. 1, http://www.dailykos.com/story/2006/1/24/121156/129

    )While Jack Abramoff’s scandalous rip-off of Indian tribes is well know, his role as a GOP fixer for NSA andCIA contractors has gone virtually under the radar screen. Abramoff’s lobbying activities raise serious questions about the role of his corporate and foreign clients in compromising highly sensitive NSA and Capitol Hill communications networks, in domestic spying and in other illegal national security-related activities.leveymg’s diary : Abramoff served as a conduit between the NSA and private companies that have become the focus of multiple criminal prosecutions and national security investigations, including the abuse of prisoners abroad, and alledged spying on Capitol Hill lawmakers by Abramoff clients. This has resulted in the gravest constitutional crisis since Watergate, as well as a massive damage to U.S. national security.
    The 2001 Contract to Privatize NSA’s Surveillance Systems In 2001 Verizon, along with CACI (a defense contractor shepherded by Abramoff that heavily contributed to the GOP), was awarded part of a multi-billion dollar NSA contract to privatize the NSA’s information technology systems, capabilities that were then used by the Bush Administration to carry out illegal domestic spying. As part of that ten-year program, code-named Project Groundbreaker, NSA surveillance systems continue to be developed, operated and maintained by private sector IT companies. See, http://lists.jammed.com/…Washington PostAugust 1, 2001Pg.

    E1By Vernon Loeb and Greg Schneider, Washington Post Staff Writers The National Security Agency yesterday awarded a 10-year contract worth more than $2 billion to Computer Sciences Corp. and more than a dozen partners in what NSA officials called the largest effort by a U.S. intelligence agency to entrust its information technology systems to a private contractor. The contract, dubbed Project Groundbreaker, also represents a major departure for the NSA, which has long prided itself on developing much of its own computer and signals intelligencetechnology.

    Air Force Lt. Gen. Michael V. Hayden, the NSA’s director, said the contract “allows us to refocus assets on the agency’s core mission of providing foreign signals intelligence and protecting U.S. nationalsecurity-related information systems.” One intelligence community official called the contract “unprecedented in terms of the scale of the effort, taking advantage of the private sector’s ability to make technical inroadsand modernize rapidly. It could very well be replicated by other intelligence agencies, if the effort is successful.”While many of the requirements included in the contract involve non-classified computing and
    telecommunications services, Computer Sciences and its partners also will be responsible for designing andmaintaining classified systems used for the management of electronicsignals and digital data intercepted around the globe. California-based CSC formed a partnership on the contract with Logicon, a Herndon-based unit of Northrop Grumman Corp. The joint venture is known as theEagle Alliance, and will be led by Robinson. The team was selected over groups led by AT&T Corp. and OAO TechnologySolutions Inc. Agency officials said the contract, which will become “fully operational” by Nov. 1,includes financial incentives to support the hiring of 750 NSA employees by the contractors at “comparable or better pay, benefits and opportunities.”
    It also undertook a similar outsourcing program for the Army in the past few years, a $680 million job called the Wholesale Logistics Modernization Program.CSC’s other partners include General Dynamics Corp., Keane Federal Systems Inc., Omen Inc., ACS Defense Inc., BTG Inc., CACI International Inc., Compaq Computer Corp., TRW Inc., Windemere, Fiber Plus, Verizon and Superior Communications.—————–{Excerpt}

    • Gitcheegumee says:

      Scandal over Abramoff foreign wireless company client brings down Rep. Bob NyeYet another major GOP scandal concerns a different Abramoff client, MobileAcess Networks(dba FoxCom Wireless) an Israeli wireless company, which was awarded the contract to install a local area wireless network in the House and Senate office buildings. This has led to the downfall of House Operations Committee Chair Bob Nye (R.,OH), who received lavish gifts from Abramoff and his clients in the deal. The contract was awarded after the Israeli wireless company made a $50,000 gift to Abramoff’s favorite “charity”, the Capital Athletic Foundation, that also received a million dollar donation from a Russian tycoonseeking favors in Washington. Abramoff’s firm received $240,000 for its services. In relation to the other Abramoff clients involved with the NSA, perhaps the most intriguing aspect of this transaction is that the House wireless contract was awarded to the Israeli company despite security concerns that the network was vulnerable to monitoring. Nevertheless, the contract was pushed through byNye after the NSA cleared the plan. http://www.hillnews.com/…

  71. wigwam says:

    Did I correctly hear Tice took his evidence to Obama’s security advisor and torture appologist John Brennan?

  72. Gitcheegumee says:

    Think those intercepted conversations could give us some insight as to where and what happened to Madoff billions?

  73. nonplussed says:

    The Federation of American Scientists is far from an assemblage of “Nut jobs”, Madam. Just because you do not wish to explore or would rather completely discount the thinking of others, does not render us “Stupid”! I hold an advanced Engineering degree and am a dues paying member of the FAS which does much more than promote conspiracy theories, so your charge is baseless on the face of it.

    The FAS does not endorse any stance on the 9/11 issue incidentally. The only mention of it I can find is the posting of the Commissions report. If you know of some ct promotion, please enlighten me!

  74. JThomason says:

    I should say this just to be clear: I really don’t consider the health care reform debate and the implications of a systematic violation of the 4th amendment to be fundamentally congruent in importance.

    If I did I would be posting on the health care blog. Anyone who assumes he or she understands my inclinations concerning health invites a prima facie disqualification from being considered serious.

    This should address all unanswered questions in this regard.

  75. Gitcheegumee says:

    Don’t post here too often,but someone of a far superior intellect to mine once shared an insightful comment about blogging.
    The gist was that when our comments have a prevalence ofthe words like “I’ ,me,my ,mine-that the dialog ceases to be about promoting info ,but about promoting oneself.
    It personally kinda put a lot of things in perspective when writing commentary.

  76. cinnamonape says:

    “If you weren’t doing anything illegal, you have nothing to worry about.”

    Silly me…who would have known the Founders were so concerned with protecting those involved in illegal acts?

    The right of the people to be secure in their persons, houses, papers, and effects, against unreasonable searches and seizures, shall not be violated, and no Warrants shall issue, but upon probable cause, supported by Oath or affirmation, and particularly describing the place to be searched, and the persons or things to be seized.

    Stunning…once “Conservative” meant “Keep the Government out of our private lives”. Somewhere that really got screwed up.

  77. Gitcheegumee says:

    Tea leaves @ 205

    Tech Insider: A global government crossing (2/11/02) — www … Feb 11, 2002 … Li Ka-shing plans to buy a controlling interest in the now defunct Global Crossing, and Rep. Dana Rohrabacher, R.-Calif., has moved to stall …
    http://www.govexec.com/dailyfed/021102ti.htm – 36k – Cached – Similar pages –

    Pentagon Adviser Is Also Advising Global Crossing – New York Times Mar 21, 2003 … Pentagon Adviser Is Also Advising Global Crossing … controlled by the Hong Kong billionaire Li Ka-shing, and Singapore Technologies …
    query.nytimes.com/gst/fullpage.html?res=9E07E1D61131F932A15750C0A9659C8B63 – 44k – Cached – Similar pages

    • Gitcheegumee says:

      Not to get too far off topic, but Global Crossing will be a familiar term in the near future should Terry McAuliffe actually run for Virginia Governor.

      Here a couple of links to inform and refresh :

      White House Hotelier and Barista Terry McAuliffe to Run For … Jan 5, 2009 … Terry McAuliffe wants to be governor of Virginia. … At the time McAuliffe met Winnick, Global Crossing was a privately held company, …
      patriotroom.com/article/white-house-hotelier-and-barista-terry-mcauliffe-to-run-for-virginia-governor – 35k – Cached – Similar pages –

      Jeffrey St. Clair: The Political Business of Terry McAuliffe Oct 19, 2004 … And Terry McAuliffe, working from the master’s Rolodex, …. At the time McAuliffe met Winnick, Global Crossing was a privately held company …
      http://www.counterpunch.org/stclair10192004.html – 72k – Cached – Similar pages

  78. maryo2 says:

    The 9-11 report Chapter 3 “The FBIs handling of the Phoenix Electronic Communication” page 59 footnote 58 says:

    ISD (FBI’s Investigative Services Division) was created in November 1999 and housed the FBI’s analytical resources, such as the IRSs (Intelligence Research Specialists) who handled counterintelligence matters, organized crime and white collar crime matters, and domestic and international terrorism matters. In addition, ISD included an Intelligence and Operations Support Section that was responsible for administering the field’s analytical program and training and automation requirements. ISD was eliminated in the beginning of 2002.

    page 66 says:
    [Williams was familiar with long-time the Radical Fundamentalist Unit (RFU) Intelligence Operations Specialist (IOS) “Frank.”] When asked why he (Frank) did not recommend including any IRSs (Intelligence Research Specialists in ISD) on the attention line, Frank told the OIG that the Investigative Services Division was “on its last legs” at the time [July 2001] and that there were very few IRSs in the ISD still working on analysis.

    page 87 says:
    In 1996 the FBI had hired 36 IRSs in an effort to boister its international terrorism analytical program. According to witnesses, within a year approximately half of the IRSs had left the program. By mid-1999, there were only approximately 15 international terrorism IRSs, and by mid-2000 there were only 10 IRSs devoted to counterterrorism analysis. Former IRS managers confirmed to us that only one IRS was assignedto UBL mtters in 2001, but she transferred to another unit in July 2001. Thus, in the summer of 2001 when the [July 10] Phoenix EC was received, no IRS was assigned to work on Bin Laden matters.

    And yet the “FBI Intelligence Reform Since September 11, 2001: Issues and Options for Congress” says:
    In the wake of September 11, the FBI concluded that analysts would be more effective if they were controlled by the operational divisions. ISD was abolished, and analysts were dispersed back to the divisions in which they originally served. [ISD was eliminated in the beginning of 2002.]

    In short, the FBI division that covered white collar crime (think financial sector), counter intelligence (think untrue 16 words in SOTU address), or international terrorism (think 9-11) was “on its last legs” in July 2001.

    If the division was not planned to be eliminated until after 9-11-2001, then what was the plan for it in July 2001?

    • Gitcheegumee says:

      Posted up thread, but DEFINITELY worth a look. A TREASURE trove of info. LONG article,but brimming with specifics on NSA domestic spying info and Government contracts.

      Abramoff’s NSA and Domestic Spying Scandal by leveymgWed Jan 25, 2006 at 10:25:59 AM PDT

      The National Security Scandals of Jack Abramoff – Part II(Pt. 1, http://www.dailykos.com/story/2006/1/24/121156/129

  79. Leen says:

    Olberman to Tice “has anyone in the Obama administration been in touch with you about this”?

    Tice “no well I’ve been in touch with one a volunteer. They have not utilized me”

    Wondering if and when the Obama administration or the appropriate members of congress will “utilize” Russell Tice.

    Sounds like a strong and honorable offer by him

  80. MartyDidier says:

    I’ve been telling my story for a very long time and I also don’t believe anyone is going to believe in the end what this was all about, however i’m pleased to see progress with the right people starting to question more. Please remember that I was in a family for more than 26 years who is directly involved in the Shadow Government or better called the Political Mafia. I’ve posted links to International articles showing the family’s invovlement in huge drug shipments, CIA Rendition flights but there is more that hasn’t been linked yet to them.

    Unfortunately, their plan as explained to me as late as the mid-90’s was all about a White House Coup similar but more finely tuned for success than the White House Coup in 1933. Make no mistake about it as I was told the huge drug shipments proceeds were to FUND Black-Op’s in support of the Coup. Who’s involved will astonish everyone ane after realizing the TRUTH, our world and how we view our Government will change forever! It HAS to as if we want to keep repeating our past insanities, we’ll need to make serious changes to make sure this doesn’t happen anymore.

    The Wiretapping or what many don’t know what it really is “Micro-Snooping” has really been going on since before 911. The criminal element within our Government (Federal down to local areas) can’t operate their Criminal Operations UNLESS they know well what everyone plus those who they feel are working against them are doing. Remember, those involved in this Criminal Element hold all the cards. They are the Foxes within the HEn House and can modify anything to suit their needs to get rid of anyone they want. Reading the news shows many questionable and suspicious situations happening to many — why?

    My Ex-wife’s family are totally paranoid about doing anything to escape this eviil monster. The reason should be obvious as those who have tried end up killed in a way to make their murder appear to be as dramatic as possible. Over the years, the messages sent by these murders does it’s work with instilling such fear within those who are involved that they won’t do anything to jepardize thier situation so their family’s will remain safe. How I know is because I was in this mess for more than 26 years. Keep in mind that the family’s business is Real Estate Development so WHY does my ex-brother-in-law NEED to drive a BULLET-PROOF CAR? I never knew that building homes was so dangerous!

    But what’s worse is those involved are over time, bringing in their loved ones to share in the money that’s gained from corruptive situations. This means that generations are inbvolved all enjoying stealing from the system and as well, building their fear to never talk about anything. This may be where we have now a culture representing a criminal element that is deadly to us all.

    Also keep in mind of how seriously corrupt and criminalized our Judical system is. It appears to be in the process of being cleaned up but groups we depend on to raise out country back to a Nation of Laws havenn’t been doing their job. It’s because they too have become criminalized. The AG is an important position yet we’ve had nothing but highended criminals in that position. Gonzales as an example was doing his criminal bidding when Bush’s AG back in Texas while Bush was Governor. Again how I know is because I was in a family who are directly involved and I heard all about Bush and some of the things he was involved in while Governor of Texas. I also was told the plan was to make him President back in the early 90’s. So was it by accident that Bush junior became our President — Abosulutely not!

    But worse is Holder. The criminal system includes Chiquita Crands and Holder is considered a Team member. Chiquita was directly involved in the Drug system as well as others, but most importantly the family’s involvement was at that time to launder Drug money into Property. Guess who were the ones they were laundering for? They talked often about Chiquita among others. Now look what happened to Chquita when they were caught working with the Paramilitaries in Colombia? How was it they got off so easy when so many where murdered per their plan?

    If HOLDER is made AG, we are all in deep do do because he is expected to fight any progress towards cleaning up our Judical system and thus any effort to bring our country back to a Nation of Laws won’t happen.

    If anyone wants proof, all they need to do is assemble what’s already surfaced along with pprosecute those outstanding who seem to have escaped justice like my ex-wife’s family. Why is it, they remain still at large when they were caught red handed more than a year ago with 4 tons of Cocaine? Also, add to this that the families in Mexico who have had their loved ones caught and prosecuted and jailed for involvement in the huge Drug system SEE that no one in the US has been prosecuted. I don’t blame them at all. This more than shows how screwed up our Judical system is and how important now it is to bring it back to what it should be to support our focus of a Nation of Laws. Bush AND Clinton are known to be involved in the Drug system among other activites.

    Obama I”m sorry to say is known to be a TEAM Memeber. He is known by the family to have helped them setup their Drug shipping business in Florida while working at the Law Firm. I heard all about this and learned that the criminal system beleived Obama was their new budding shining star capable of reaching high levels of success in the Politics. There is a lot more to this that will round out the understanding of the different functions of this criminal system but most people won’t believe it. Maybe in a short time everyone will start to believe what I’ve been trying to tell them.

    Marty Didier
    Northbrook, IL

  81. 4jkb4ia says:

    The story is that months ago EW told plunger to stop the long off-topic postings, and plunger was very well-behaved for a long time. 85% of the longtime commenters know all about plunger’s manias by now and are steadfastly ignoring him. I admit that calling B’nai Brith a Masonic organization was very damaging to Bollyn’s credibility.
    EW and bmaz are very hesitant about banning people. They have banned three people in the history of this blog at FDL. EW may decide that plunger is getting up to the line again because of multiple comments vaguely related to topic.

    • Leen says:

      While I do not always agree with Plunger if you read through this thread many of Plungers comments and links have to do with wiretapping and the communication companies who may have been involved in data mining and wiretapping.

  82. Gitcheegumee says:

    but where would you find $60B?~~~~~~~~~~~Just a guess,but maybe Bernie Madoff might have some insight?

  83. maeme says:

    Two things: Chris Matthews keeps pressing about the torture prosecutions and going after Bush and the higher ups who did and authorized the torturing. Tonight, Lynn Sweeney and Chris Cillizza are both saying that Obama has no intention of going after Bush and Cheney and prosecuting anyone. So you may find the Obama is not helpful in this pursuit. The media keeps selling it as these folks on the far left and the blogosphere are only pushing it and just democrats in Congress.

    Second thing: Almost four years ago, Paul Craig Roberts, former Assistant Secretary of the Treasury under Reagan, former of Editor for the WSJ wrote an article about the wiretapping and the way the democrats were acting, he believed that only the media and members of Congress were being wiretapped and any one deemed as an enemy. He took a lot of flack for that article. It may turn out that’s exactly what was going on.

  84. Leen says:

    Really appreciate Paul Craig Roberts everything he writes.

    RUSSEL TICE OFFERED HIS SERVICES TO THE OBAMA ADMINISTRATION! WILL THEY TAKE HIM UP ON HIS OFFER?

    Jesus Mary and Joseph the Today Show is still talking about what Michelle wore on inauguration day. Yawn Yawn
    Thank goodness for FDL and other blogs.