A Whole Heap of Bad Faith in al-Haramain

The Obama Administration has filed its latest brief in the al-Haramain case. In its effort to shield the Bush Administration from liability for their crimes, it engages in a whole host of bad faith so as to prevent Judge Walker from actually making a determination that the al-Haramain lawyers were illegally spied on.

 As a reminder, Judge Walker’s January 5 order did three things. First, it answered the question the Appeals Court had remanded the case back to Walker to answer: does FISA, which imposes criminal penalties for illegal wiretapping, pre-empt state secrets claims? Walker answered that question in the affirmative: he reasoned that, if Congress passed a law imposing penalties on the executive for breaking the law, the executive couldn’t very well restrict access to the evidence that provides proof that the executive broke the law. Congress wouldn’t have provided for penalties if it didn’t intend for it to be possible to litigate those penalties.

Next, Walker said he would review the wiretap log that proves the government spied on al-Haramain illegally to see whether it proves the government spied on al-Haramain illegally. Very important: he said he would conduct this review in secret!!

Finally, Walker laid the groundwork for talking about how the case would proceed going forward, if, on review of the document proving the government spied on the al-Haramain lawyers illegally, he determined that the government spied on the al-Haramain lawyers illegally (frankly, I think this was a mistake on Walker’s part, but nevermind). Here’s the most important passage in which he does this:

To be more specific, the court will review the Sealed Document ex parte and in camera. The court will then issue an order regarding whether plaintiffs may proceed —— that is, whether the Sealed Document establishes that plaintiffs were subject to electronic surveillance not authorized by FISA. As the court understands its obligation with regard to classified materials, only by placing and maintaining some or all of its future orders in this case under seal may the court avoid indirectly disclosing some aspect of the Sealed Document’s contents. Unless counsel for plaintiffs are granted access to the court’s rulings and, possibly, to at least some of defendants’ classified filings, however, the entire remaining course of this litigation will be ex parte. This outcome would deprive plaintiffs of due process to an extent inconsistent with Congress’s purpose in enacting FISA’s sections 1806(f) and 1810. Accordingly, this order provides for members of plaintiffs’ litigation team to obtain the security clearances necessary to be able to litigate the case, including, but not limited to, reading and responding to the court’s future orders.

Given the difficulties attendant to the use of classified material in litigation, it is timely at this juncture for defendants to review their classified submissions to date in this litigation and to determine whether the Sealed Document and/or any of defendants’ classified submissions may now be declassified. Accordingly, the court now directs defendants to undertake such a review. [my emphasis]

Now, I’ll come back to this language, but the important thing to note here is that Walker said plaintiffs would have to be given access to the court’s rulings. He asks the government to review everything else, to see if they could be made available to the plaintiffs, but the only thing he imagines necessarily being given to plaintiff’s lawyers is the Court’s rulings.

So let me review. Walker said:

  1. He had determined FISA’s punishment for illegal wiretapping cannot simply be neutralized by a state secrets claim.
  2. He would review the wiretap log, under classified conditions, and determine whether al-Haramain had been wiretapped illegally.
  3. If he determined al-Haramain had been wiretapped illegally, then al-Haramain’s lawyers would have to get access to court materials going forward, "including, but not limited to … the court’s future orders." 
  4. The government should undertake a review about what might be shared with al-Haramain’s lawyers safely.

Got it?

Now, in response, the Dead-Enders and (now) the Obama Administration are appealing. But they’re making two arguments in their appeal:

  • Walker was incorrect when he determined that FISA’s punishment for illegal wiretapping cannot simply be neutralized by a state secrets claim.
  • Walker was planning on imminently sharing state secrets information with plaintiffs. 

I actually have some sympathy for the first part of this claim. As the government has pointed out, no one has answered this question before (that’s because there’s never been such a blatant example where the executive violated FISA–there’s never been such smoking gun evidence before). So the Dead-Ender/Obama Administration wants the Appeals Court to check Walker’s work on this issue, to see whether or not they agree.

But in order to get an immediate stay (which they need or Walker will surely rule that the Bush Administration did illegally wiretap al-Haramain, which is a big fat genie which will bring other consequences down on the Bush Administration), they’ve got to prove something bad will happen right now.  And to do that, they’re completely misrepresenting (rather, ignoring) the passage I quoted above, which makes it very clear that Walker is not going to imminently share state secrets with the plaintiffs and has in fact sought government input on what he can and can’t share with them.

Here’s some of the language they use to misrepresent Walker’s order:

…where a district court order threatens to disclose protected information…

There is no question that irreparable harm is likely to occur absent a stay. Plaintiffs note that the district court has not set out in full detail how it intends to proceed. The district court has made clear, however, that it will provide plaintiffs’ counsel with access to classified information over the objections of the Executive.

The district court’s treatment of classified information is also legally incorrect. The NSA Director has determined that plaintiffs’ counsel have no “need to know” the classified information at issue. Plaintiffs assert that the district court has the authority to make its own need-to-know determination. [note how they conflate "the district court’s treatment of classified information" with plaintiff’s assertions about classified information?]

As noted, the district court has made clear that it intends to provide plaintiffs’ counsel with access to classified information that this Court has held lies
within the scope of the state secrets privilege. 

That’s all from the first two pages of the government’s brief. Rest assured, though, it continues like that throughout, without ever getting around to citing the passage I’ve cited above.

The district court has not threatened to disclose protected information. It has said it will share its rulings, going forward. It has started the negotiating process with the government about maybe making other materials available–but has not "threatened" to do so. Indeed, the very request for a review of whether the information could be declassified or not proves that the Dead-Ender and (now) Obama claims are a complete fabrication. But the Dead-Enders and (now) the Obama Administration make the claim anyway so as to artificially create some reason to stay this case immediately.

There’s more–most of all the irony that the government is treating explicit law in this case as negotiable, whereas in the retroactive immunity case they’re filling in the holes that Congress didn’t fill in. But for now, just know that the Dead-Enders and (now) the Obama Administration have totally mispresented Walker’s order so as to create the false claim of imminent irreperable harm.

image_print
55 replies
    • macaquerman says:

      The last paragraph you note
      As——————privilege.
      doesn’t seem to be all that incorrect(excepting that the judge might himself censor it).
      Sorry to be so slow, what am I missing?

    • bmaz says:

      WO – Just so that you know, what was excised was the “Declaration of Ariane Cerlenko” and “Intelligence Community Directive Number 704″ which I am almost positive I have included in previous pdf uplinks in one or more posts before.

      • emptywheel says:

        And I don’t really get into that–but the whole point about Walker saying ONLY that he’s definitely going to give al-Haramain his own orders going forward is that we’re in a fight over who gets to declare THOSE classified–Walker, or Obama. Walker argues that he does, bc they’re court documents. Obama argues he does (though he doesn’t really admit that he’s talking, first and foremost, about court documents). And of course he’s eliding the State Secret document (the wiretap log) with the court briefs (which are top secret, but not state secrets, presumably), so that Obama can deny al-Haramain’s lawyers clearance to read them.

  1. MadDog says:

    Just jumping in for a minute with a bit of OT news via the WaPo:

    Prosecutors Prepare Charges Against Final ‘Enemy Combatant’ in U.S.

    Federal prosecutors are preparing to charge Ali Saleh Kahlah al-Marri with providing material support to al-Qaeda terrorists in a groundbreaking move that would put the alleged sleeper agent under the jurisdiction of the U.S. court system, according to sources familiar with the issue.

    Indicting Marri in a federal court marks a significant change from the policies of the Bush administration, which had argued that al-Marri should be tried in a military tribunal proceeding and that he could not use American courts to contest his legal status…

    P.S. – Looking forward with WO to that al-Haramain pdf!

    • emptywheel says:

      Yeah, the previous Obama brief stayed away almost entirely.

      But not now. They’re still using it slightly differently than BushCo. But nevertheless, Addington’s still right there.

      • bmaz says:

        Heh, well they doubled down on Egan here just to make up for that lost ground.

        Box Turtle @10 – not sure, but I think you are confusing the consolidated cases that we were discussing previously, with al-Haramain specifically, which is what is at issue here. This brief is to the 9th Circuit, not Walker.

          • WilliamOckham says:

            I don’t know. This argument seems so lame that I wonder if the Obama team is trying to lose. They’re asserting a privilege far broader than even the state secrets privilege that BushCo used. Follow them to their logical conclusion and the government can win any court case anywhere. They just classify any information that hurts their case (even if it’s already in the public domain). According these bozos, classification decisions are completely unreviewable. It’s total nonsense.

              • dakine01 says:

                Why bmaz, that’s the American way! Think back to the “secret bombings” during the Vietnam War. The only people the bombings were secret to wre the American people. The Cambodian and Vietnamese folks KNEW they were being bombed.

                But the US Government tried to keep it secret from the American people because they could.

              • WilliamOckham says:

                I totally agree with you about US v. Reynolds. In fact, I will flatly assert that the state secrets privilege has never been used, except to cover up government law-breaking. Seriously.

                I believe we would be better off eliminating all classification and penalties associated with disclosing government information. Democracy requires openness. Secrets that really need to be kept would be closely held and only social pressure would keep people from revealing them. There would be downsides to this, but overall it would be better than what we have now. For a true measure of the absurdity of our current system, read this email from a defense contractor employee that James Fallows got in reference to the debate over the F-22. I’ve highlighted the salient part:

                Excuse me, but you seem to be caught up in the propaganda of the F-15 mafia. The F-15 mafia and others have successfully reduced the numbers of F-22 production to the point where economies of scale are no longer possible. Unfortunately, those who really know the issues and the data, are not going to engage in a debate, because the result is to trash our country and our capability. Because of freedom of speech, you are allowed too participate in a debate that has not helped our country. No complex aircraft is without problems, but maintainers have never had an aircraft which provided so much capability on day one…

                The per unit cost isn’t even the whole picture, the total life cycle cost is. And cost is relative. Do you have the numbers for all alternatives? Anyway, you don’t have the numbers, no one in the unclassifed media does.

              • LabDancer says:

                As horrible as the facts were in Reynolds, it could be argued the fact that the nation’s security was so reduced to the point it came to depend on such a pathetic excuse for flight technology as the plane in question, was not a matter completely devoid of national concern. Mind you, I’m also of the view that as a rule of thumb, it better we poor publicans know of such facts than their burden being removed from our pea-pickin’ little brains.

            • LabDancer says:

              It would be a real shame to lose a terrific opportunity, such as this case offers, to have the court system reform an executive privilege claim that, by virtue of its nature, does not appear to allow much, if any, room for meaningful challenge in a court setting, and that, by virtue of the current political climate, would seem to hold the potential of costing an administration an awful lot of political currency to bring about obviously badly-needed reform, currency that it would far rather prefer to save for other battles.

              Now, if by fate you happened to be the person in charge of that administration and, being something of a scholar in relation to the Constitution, you happened to realize the seminal significance of some of the issues, isn’t it possible you would find it convenient to leave to true believers the spadework of thrashing around among all the thorns in the hand dealt your office?

              This is such a fun case — sure hope Fearless Leader keeps diving into it.

              • LabDancer says:

                Further in this vein, somehow we’ve got to the point that whenever the executive branch overreaches & gets away with it, that’s “precedent”; whereas where a subsequent administration criticizes such overreaching &/or declines to the same, it’s simple forebearance from the exercise of power, & NOT precedent. Absent action by Congress, it seems to me the only route to resolving such idiocy is through the courts [indeed, even WITH action by Congress; for what other conclusion is available when we have the experience of the Church Commission followed by that of the Bush-Cheney administration?].

                Now, the rustling of those readying to shout out concerns about the right having packed the courts is almost palpable — but nonetheless, surely that is within the design of the system.

  2. BoxTurtle says:

    I’m having trouble with this. Walker basically threw their last brief back at them and said “Address the points I posed. All of them”.

    Their response doesn’t even come close. I think the judge will be royally pissed and might be thinking about sanctioning the lawyers.

    Boxturtle (I’m sure Judge Walker is aware their goal is to delay the unwinnable)

  3. timbo says:

    The irrepairable harm to the Constitution and our Bill of Rights doesn’t seem to be much of an issue in the executive branch these days…for some odd reason.

  4. AZ Matt says:

    OT – Nice story with Jane in it from the New York Times
    Read the Whole Thing!!!

    Bloggers and Unions Join Forces to Push Democrats to Left

    By JIM RUTENBERG
    Published: February 26, 2009

    WASHINGTON — A group of liberal bloggers said it was teaming up with organized labor and MoveOn.org to form a political action committee that would seek to push the Democratic Party further to the left.

    Soliciting donations from their readers, the bloggers said they were planning to recruit liberal candidates to challenge more centrist Democrats currently in Congress.

    Left-leaning bloggers have already proven themselves influential in Congressional races, most notably providing muscle for the movement that helped Ned Lamont defeat Senator Joseph I. Lieberman in the Connecticut Democratic primary in 2006. (Mr. Lieberman retained his seat after winning the general election as an independent.)

    But organizers said the new political action committee would be the start of a more organized and concentrated approach.

    Ms. Hamsher said Accountability Now — which will also have support from the Service Employees International Union, one of the nation’s largest service sector unions, and the Web site DailyKos.com — would concentrate more fully on candidate recruitment on a statewide level.

    “We’ve gone out to the state blogs asking them to put together research on people who they think are good candidates who should be on our radar,” she said. “We’re not just parachuting in.”

    She added that the group had not yet settled on specific races.

    The political action committee will formally start up on Friday. Organizers said they already had $500,000 in their bank account, money that was raised over a short period in September when several blogs solicited donations. Organizers said they expected to collect far more than that when they start fund-raising in earnest next month.

    • bobschacht says:

      Thanks for this. I’ll see if I can’t recruit my local chapter of Progressive Democrats of America to help out. We’ve been doing this sort of thing anyway.

      Bob in HI

  5. emptywheel says:

    I think they’re doing something slightly different here–trying to get back to the protection of information rather than the privilege itself.

    But the effect is the same. If you’re relying on Navy v. Egan, a case that (IMO) clearly admits the ability for Congress to affect classification through legislation to some degree, then you’re on unstable ground.

    Though at this point I think they’re going to shift and just beat up Walker, bc, they know they can’t win both these cases, al-Haramain and immunity, but if they lose either one, they’ve lost both.

  6. Mary says:

    Is there any discussion of reconciling Executive Order 13292 on classification, amending old EO12958, which promises that illegal activity won’t be classified with the assertion now that illegal Executive branch activity can be treated as a state secret at the sole whim of the Executive?

    There’s too much on the line for the plaintiff’s to do it, but I’d kind of like to see a response brief that reduces down to a statement of Gov’s position – that the Exec can commit crimes and at the Exec’s sole discretion treat those crimes as state secrets – followed by cites to statements by Obama, Holder, etc. that “no one is above the law.”

    Sign and file.

  7. Mary says:

    17 – if they are, it’s the most irresponsible thing they could be doing. Bc if they win, it’s a win for the office and whoever ends up with it – ever – and a horrible loss for the nation.

    This isn’t an episode of LA law and there are real and significant consequences. Only a bad person would play games with them IMO, FWIW.

    • WilliamOckham says:

      Yeah, I probably should have made it more clear that I think if that’s what they’re doing, they’re huge jerks, even if the outcome is positive (ie they lose).

      Actually, I think that the “shorter” version of their brief is:

      I really wish we hadn’t given that judge any information because he’s not bowing and scraping the way federal judges are supposed to when we utter the magic phrase, “national security”.

    • bmaz says:

      No kidding. Crikey, even with its contents known if you follow the facts of the case, 99% of the country and all of the media treat it like it is the schematics to Cheyenne Mountain or something. It is a freaking phone log. It is a list of phone numbers dates and times. If it weren’t for the fact that it proves governmental illegality, you could likely put it in as a flyer with the newspaper.

  8. Mary says:

    29 – I’m all about your bracketed, “even WITH action by Congress”

    FISA was there -the UCMJ was there – the torture conventions were there – etc.

    words on paper without enforcement and the problem is that the branch tasked with enforcement was the one that decided to commit the crimes

  9. LabDancer says:

    OT – Apparently consistency matters: whereas a single incident of using your insider status to sell your shares ahead of an expected loss in value gets you most of the rest of your life in the pen, spending most of your career in the CIA ripping off the public purse and national security gets you a kiss:

    http://tinyurl.com/aenw2b

  10. Loo Hoo. says:

    Raw Story:

    Poisonous anthrax that killed five Americans in the weeks after the Sept. 11, 2001 terror attacks doesn’t match bacteria from a flask linked to Bruce Ivins, the researcher who committed suicide after being implicated by the Federal Bureau of Investigation, a scientist said.

    Spores used in the deadly mailings “share a chemical ‘fingerprint’ that is not found in the flask linked to Bruce Ivins,” Roberta Kwok wrote in Nature News, citing Joseph Michael, a scientist at the Sandia National Laboratories in Albuquerque, New Mexico.

    Sorry if this has been covered.

  11. JohnLopresti says:

    I think the next phase the government may be contemplating is the classic Solicitor General advocacy privilege if the current case notches up to Scotus, whereat the principle which Dahlia Lithwick cited this week in her summary of the Burlington Shell litigation to halt superfund liability damages being assessed to them as polluters: as Dahlia puts it, “A 1989 law review article by Roger Marzulla described government lawyers bringing Superfund cases as needing to say only: ‘May it please the court, I represent the Government and therefore I win.’”

  12. Valtin says:

    Re WO’s half-hearted contention or fantasy that the Obama team is hoping to lose, this is (whether meant as such or not) yet another instance of the Obama-is-faking-them out, Obama-is-holding-his-powder memes currently infecting liberal discourse on administration policy, as it is being revealed around secrecy and torture.

    I think we should be thinking of institutional forces and not individual politicians, or even political parties, when it comes to persisting matters of state, particularly, national security policy.

    This is no gambit by Team Obama, but the continuation of a policy that began under Bush, and goes back even farther. If one reads Bamford’s recent book on NSA spying, we can see, for instance, that executive branch intrusions into privacy have continued under multiple administrations.

    I suggest, as a study of the above, that one go back and review the history of the Conmmunications Assistance for Law Enforcement Act, signed into law by President Clinton in 1994. This law requires that the telecoms engineer their facilities so their networks can be monitored. Even more, it requires they “install the eavesdropping devices themselves if necessary, and then never reveal their existence.” (p. 211 of Bamford’s The Shadow Factory).

    To get all caught up in Obama this or Obama than is to fetishize electoral politics and personalities at the expense of understanding how the state apparatus works, and in which direction it is headed.

    And that direction remains, under Obama, very dangerous, as regards national security intrusions into civil liberites and human rights.

    • LabDancer says:

      “And that direction remains, under Obama, very dangerous, as regards national security intrusions into civil liberites and human rights”

      Yes, of course; but that doesn’t mean WO is guilty of fetishizing this move as eleven dimensional chess. Rather, this appears to be about finessing a really crappy hand in a game inherited due to the follies of his predecessor. That it appears possible, even likely, that reform will result in a manner that doesn’t cost him much if anything in political currency is serendipity; but sometimes accepting serendipity is prudent management. And in this, I for one am prepared to distinguish it from the issues involving prisoner treatment, where even being seen to hove to the policies of his predecessor doesn’t make any sense.

  13. Leen says:

    ot

    Lawyer: Freed Gitmo Prisoner Binyam Mohamed Experienced “Nightmare We Can’t Imagine”
    Binyammohamadweb

    A British resident held in US custody for seven years has accused US officials of torturing him and beating him dozens of times while he was held at a secret CIA prison and later at Guantanamo. The Ethiopian-born Binyam Mohamed returned to Britain on Monday after becoming the first prisoner to be released from Guantanamo since President Obama took office. We speak to Binyam Mohamed’s attorney, Clive Stafford Smith. [includes rush transcript]
    http://www.democracynow.org/20…..am_mohamed

  14. MadDog says:

    …does FISA, which imposes criminal penalties for illegal wiretapping, pre-empt state secrets claims? Walker answered that question in the affirmative: he reasoned that, if Congress passed a law imposing penalties on the executive for breaking the law, the executive couldn’t very well restrict access to the evidence that provides proof that the executive broke the law. Congress wouldn’t have provided for penalties if it didn’t intend for it to be possible to litigate those penalties…

    (My bold)

    Say what you will about EW, but dagnabbit, she consistently writes a dynamite paragraph. The one quoted above is a stellar example of reducing the topic to its undeniable truth.

    That’s what hit me when I read that paragraph for the 1st time this afternoon, and it has only been reinforced on my 2nd pass this evening.

    Clap, clap, clap!!!

  15. JohnLopresti says:

    I sense a Portuguese water dog post soon.

    OT, to valtin, appreciate much your contributions when they appear. I am sure sir Ockham is versed in Calea. Actually, as I recall the congressional argument, it was somewhat fullthroated and there was much give and take; it kind of introduced the US to some of what the Continent has been enduring in the past few decades; but digital made all that possible.

  16. JThomason says:

    37-Consider these factors:

    a. That testimony before SJC last summer with regard to arbitration between credit card companies and consumers resulted in only one remembered instance where the consumer prevailed.

    b. Bankruptcy reform.

    c. The Obama emphasis on priming the viability of the credit markets.

    d. Domestic surveillance.

    e. The confluence of the ”National Interest” with ”banking interests.”

    d. The loss of the defenses of usury and adhesion contract in the consumer credit industry.

    How could such tightening control over the lives of its citizens be done in any spirit other than ”good faith”? The emergent tightening of the features of a general public identiture are part an parcel of an institutional neo-feudal doctrine based on notions of ”human capital” that institutionally will broach no opposition whether an Obama or a Bush is in power. Obama sees it as socially normative. Bush see’s it as the liberty facet of an ownership interest. In either case it is an elitist doctrine and anti-democratic. But what can a soul say, the cock has crowed three times.

  17. Mary says:

    OT, but how do you separate threads in a web?

    The Guardian is reporting that British troops handed over two detainees to the US, which promptly violated Geneva Conventions by rendering them out of country to Bagram.

    http://www.guardian.co.uk/worl…..renditions

    Seems that the Brits had gone along with lying to Parliament over this for awhile, but now, not-so-much.

    The government admitted today that British troops in Iraq handed over terror suspects to the US, which then secretly rendered them to a prison in Afghanistan.

    After a year of allegations and repeated ministerial assurances to the contrary, the admission was made in the Commons by John Hutton, the defence secretary, who apologised to MPs for inaccurate information ministers had previously given them

    “inaccurate information”

    I like that.

    Apparently two guys who were Pakistani (things are going so swimmingly for us in Pakistan right now anyway, aren’t they?) were picked up by British forces, who turned them over to the US and the US then shipped them to Afghanistan for the full treatment. We are still holding them apparently, but have assured the Brits that they are getting humane care. The paper notes:

    The admission is hugely embarrassing to the government

    Apparently there has been kind of a free for all on accusations now and calls for a judicial inquiry, with Hutton alternating between saying, “hey, we got punked, we didn’t know the Yanks were going to ship them off to Afghanistan” and “hey, we can believe the Yanks when they tell us these guys are being treated humanely, just don’t ask that waterboarding question, ‘kay, what’s that, dammit you asked.”

    Good article that ends up with a sequence of the drip, drip, drips.

    Meanwhile, Scott Horton ponders over what Cap’n Jack knew, and when he knew it, and if he still knows it as he pens op ed after op ed, declaring his undying love for “forever detentions with no review”

    http://harpers.org/archive/2009/02/hbc-90004461

    On March 19, 2004, soon after the incident reported by the British Government today, Jack Goldsmith issued an Office of Legal Counsel opinion arguing that notwithstanding the provisions of article 49 of the Third Geneva Convention, the CIA could remove detainees held in Iraq “for a brief but not indefinite period” to an undisclosed foreign site. The memo’s conclusions have been heavily criticized and are almost certainly incorrect as a legal matter. Goldsmith is now a professor at Harvard Law School who has vigorously opposed any investigation of the Bush Administration’s torture and renditions policies …

    • Valtin says:

      Goldsmith is now a professor at Harvard Law School who has vigorously opposed any investigation of the Bush Administration’s torture and renditions policies…

      And Yoo is at Chapman (on leave from Boalt/UC), and the rest of them are either consulting, or vacationing, or making big bucks with book contracts or speaking fees.

      These individuals are all protected by the State, which seeks to perpetuate its ability to wage aggressive war, eavesdrop, and torture as essential components of its state power. The compliant press, which lives and breathes off its access to those in power, keeps all discussion of these issues within certain bounds. Hence the consensus among both conservative, middle-of-the-road, and liberal commentators and bloggers (FDL excepted) to ignore the fact that, for instance, the centerpiece of the Obama interrogation policy — adherence to the techniques of the Army Field Manual — ties it to a document that allows torture. It spins my head to even think about this. But it’s business as usual in America, a land controlled by robber barons and very violent individuals who will tie yellow ribbons in their hair and snort about democracy as they slit the throats of imagined enemies and cover it up, knowing the press will never question them seriously. That would look bad at the next cocktail party.

      (Mary, of course this comment is not really aimed at you, but is my rant spinning off your quoted material.)

    • Valtin says:

      Further, re transfer of the prisoners captured in Iraq. The U.S. and Britain were supposedly abiding by Geneva in Iraq, and prisoners caught there were considered prisoners of war. By rending them to Afghanistan, it appears the U.S. (and Britain?) were trying to get around Geneva by transfer to a facility where their status would change from POW to “illegal enemy combatant”, where Geneva, at least in its full POW coverage, would not apply. This appears to be against the Geneva III protocol:

      Prisoners of war are in the hands of the enemy Power, but not of the individuals or military units who have captured them. Irrespective of the individual responsibilities that may exist, the Detaining Power is responsible for the treatment given them.

      Prisoners of war may only be transferred by the Detaining Power to a Power which is a party to the Convention and after the Detaining Power has satisfied itself of the willingness and ability of such transferee Power to apply the Convention. When prisoners of war are transferred under such circumstances, responsibility for the application of the Convention rests on the Power accepting them while they are in its custody.

      Nevertheless if that Power fails to carry out the provisions of the Convention in any important respect, the Power by whom the prisoners of war were transferred shall, upon being notified by the Protecting Power, take effective measures to correct the situation or shall request the return of the prisoners of war. Such requests must be complied with.

      I suppose it rests upon what the status of these prisoners were prior to being rendered, but from afar, and without more info, that’s how it looks to me.

      • masaccio says:

        This kind of transfer is a war crime. It was one of the things that resulted in convictions in the Alstoetter case from the Nuremberg trials. The lawyers and judges who authorized and acted on the Nacht und Nebel program for the Nazis were jailed.

  18. Mary says:

    Oh, and while Obama is fighting against Habeas for civilian detainees at Bagram, the EU has a few words:

    http://news.yahoo.com/s/nm/200…..IX8sJZ.3QA

    The United States must not allow its Bagram military base in Afghanistan to become a new Guantanamo Bay if it wants European Union help to close the prison on Cuba, EU officials said Thursday.

    You know, stopping work on that 60 million dollar prison the US is building as a US miliary prison on Afghan soil – that might just be a nice item to get cut from the budget.

    … a confidential EU policy paper, obtained by Reuters, said such help would depend on Washington’s overall anti-terrorism policies, including assurances that Bagram or other camps would not become new Guantanamos.

    “I would find it very surprising, if the (U.S.) policy remained the same while Guantanamo was closed, to see the EU mobilize itself,” EU anti-terrorism coordinator Gilles de Kerchove told Reuters.

    The EU policy paper said: “It would not be in conformity with EU fundamental rights policies to simply transfer Guantanamo elsewhere (i.e. in Bagram) without solving the underlying question of the detention of terror suspects for indefinite time and without trial.”

    oh boy. And as if that isn’t wrinkly enough – those unreasonable Europeans think they should get something else for helping out at GITMO:

    One condition would be for EU states to be supplied with full information — whether classified or not — on any detainee they considered taking in, Langer said.

    Guess that would include information on torture of the detainee?

    • bmaz says:

      Oh no, the good Cap’n Jack and Boy Yoo issued an OLC opinion, still classified I presume, that states that “full Information” does not mean “complete information”.

      And thank you for the Law of the Sea update above @46; you know how I love that guy….

  19. Mary says:

    51 – exactly. We’ve talked about that here some before and the bigger issue, that Horton addresses, of whether or not they were even picked up as any kind of combatant or not, in which case they appear to be “protected persons” whose out of country transport was expressly prohibited by Article 49. Interposed with the timing of Goldsmith’s memo finding that protected persons can be transported out of country for interrogations – it’s looking like they were the topics on which he was opining.

    Meanwhile, there’s the meltdown in the Punjab territory in Pakistan, where the Sharif brothers have been barred from running for office and are tying their case to the more popular case of still deposed Chief Justice Chaudhary. Zadari is remaning opposed to that, as he only holds his position by virtue of a waiver for crimes granted to Zadari by Musharef and that’s a waiver Chaudhary has said he would undo.

    The Chaudhary issues and the Sharif brothers are also being frequently linked there with the issue of Aafia Siddiqui who is being held here in the US, with 2 of her children remaining missing. Gov has managed to find psychs who say she is well and fine to go to trial and they have moved for that to happen.

    Meanwhile, Obama is still not mentioning anything about any innocent people ever being held or still being held, or acknowledging torture and torture conspiracies.

    And the beat goes on …

    • bmaz says:

      That is my question, why were they detained in the first place? We have no idea, just that the British allegedly said they were “terrorism suspects”. That is pretty freaking thin….

Comments are closed.