Jello Jay Rockefeller on the Public Option
A number of people have been expressing pleasant surprise at Jello Jay’s recent comments on the public option:
"We can’t count on insurance companies. They are just maximizing their profits. They are sticking it to consumers.
"I am all for letting insurance companies compete. But I want them to compete in a system that offers real health-care insurance. I call it a public plan," Rockefeller said….
Government-backed programs are big enough to bring medical costs down, Rockefeller believes.
"Back in 1993, all our Veterans Administration hospitals got together and agreed to buy prescription drugs as a group. The next week, the costs of those drugs went down by 50 percent.
"Today, the insurance industry runs this whole deal, spending $1.4 million every day to fight health-insurance reform. The government has a lot of power to lower prices," Rockefeller said….
"We have a moral choice. This is a classic case of the good guys versus the bad guys. I know it is not political for me to say that," Rockefeller added.
"But do you want to be non-partisan and get nothing? Or do you want to be partisan and end up with a good health- care plan? That is the choice." [my emphasis]
Now, I am happy to hear Jello Jay talk like a Democrat, demand that we put people’s interest ahead of corporations.
And I think the commentary on Jello Jay’s aggressive words here often forgets the "politics is local" rule: while every state (save maybe insurance-heavy states like CT) would benefit from the implementation of real health care reform, West Virginia no doubt really could use it.
That said, I am also cognizant of a little historical detail. The most "important" legislative act Jello Jay did last year, for his own career, was to shepherd the FISA Amendment Act through Congress (yeah, "important" is in scare quotes). And the single most important event that brought about Jello Jay’s success came when then-candidate Obama flip-flopped on his promises to oppose retroactive immunity, and with that flip-flop signaled to the rest of the caucus it was time to support the bill.
Candidate Obama saved Jello Jay’s legislative butt last summer (much to our chagrin).
One of Candidate Obama’s earliest Senate backers, of course, was Jello Jay. A guy who loudly supported Obama even when his state voted in large numbers against him in the primary.
Well, here we are with President Obama, revving up the fight for his most important legislative project. Jello Jay is no longer SSCI Chair–he has moved to Commerce, a Committee that will have some say in this process, and one that certainly wields some serious influence. And now we find Jello Jay making sense in a way that many of the most moderates in the Senate are not doing.
I have no proof–but I have a hunch that Jello Jay’s welcome statements may stem partly from this close legislative cooperation in the past.
I of course still don’t think Obama should have caved on FISA last year. But I will take some bitter satisfaction if doing so ends up getting us an unexpected legislative champion for heath care.
You remember where Wendell Potter’s “Come to Jesus” moment on health care was located, right? In “Jello” Jay’s home state. Maybe, just maybe, it caused “Jello” Jay to have some kind of shame.
thanks, ew. this is a this is a neat knitting together of apparently disparate facts.
i wonder how many other important matters have been sacrificed to health care reform.
it will be worth it if we get a really good public supported medical insurance system in place. but obama and rockefeller will only get accolades from convince me with their final product – words just don’t count with these guys.
if words alone counted, then feingold would long ago have favorably resolved the bush-cheney mugging of the constitution.
So Jello Jay is some kind of modern day Patrick Henry with Obama – “Give me liberty or give me health”? And he chose health? What kind of chess is the Gelatinous One playing?
Consider an alternative theory. Keep the cynicism but accept the possibility that the Dems have actually figured out that good policy on this set of issues is also good politics. Rhetorically, the Dems are beating the crap out of the industry and the Republican, tying the two together as defenders of an unacceptable status quo. Moreover, they’ve done all the public bipartisanship gestures and have gather zero Republican support for the elements that are supported by 75% of the public; so they’re now free to ignore the right. Rahm signaled that today in the NYT article Jane wrote about. That was a quote, a direct signal.
This is not FISA, where the public had little notion of what was going down and the Dems could be smeared by the terrorist arguments. This is one where all the politics are on the Dems’s side, and for once we have the WH and much of the Dem establishment lining up with a more or less progressive position (though compromised from single payer, but that’s that what it seems), but they’ve played that issue well.
The argument that you can keep what you have if it’s working, but you’ll have a choice if you want it, but no one will force you, is a winner. The argument the Republicans/industry are making is that the public plan will be so attractive that it will siphon support from employer plans and thus doom the private industry. But that’s a weak argument because (1) they’re admitting that the current private plans can’t compete well and (2) it’s an argument against competition and (3) people know that in the company plans, they only have one or two choices anyway, so why not a third? Besides, there are lots of people who like the fact they’re company provides health care, but now they’re being told that if they lose their jobs or want to change jobs, they have an alternative that is supposed to be more affordable. They don’t have to risk their family’s health when they change jobs — that’s another winning argument.
The stars are aligned on this one, and we just need to keep pounding on our logic and their lying. This is winnable, as few other battles have been, and for once progessives, the WH and Dem leadership can work together unless they (again) contract chicken flue. This is a good fight and we shouldn’t hesitate to engage it, FISA notwithstanding.
“This is winnable”
Against campaign contributions? I think not.
You’re missing the fact that every piece of cleanup legislation — and with anything this big and pervasive, there will be many cleanup bills proposed — is a cash machine for contributions. This will be a ten year struggle, at least, to get all the pieces right.
The Dems can afford to vote for a decent foundation and then fix details piecemeal.
Do you think the contributors with billions at stake will stop contributing to Dems as they make efforts to tweek each little piece? Or that Pharma/Big insurance will conclude that since the Dems voted for this, they should give all their contributions to the irrelevant Republicans, who, if they vote against this, have no prospects of returning to power for the forseeable future? I don’t think so.
If you’re right, nothing will ever get done.
I’ve been watching the U.S. economy commit suicide over medical costs since I first wrote about it in 1992. We’re no closer to solution now than we were 17 years ago.
ratfood outdid himself with that “money laundering” quip ! *g*
t’weren’t nuthin’
*applause*
In comedy, timing is everything and that was excellent !
It isn’t funny that non-Canadian’s are such experts on their healthcare system…..
And they bring up the socialist shit and have NO clue that the whole VA system is a socialist system, the facilities owned by the government, doctors employed by government…….. and they negotiated their drug prices to save tons of money……
{{{{{ katymine & elmore }}}}}
I can feel the energy in your words !
I have a hard time believing our friend is an expert on anything, not even trolling …
I am a Libertarian Conservative and proud of it, not a troll….
But their care is the pits. My mother used to work there for many years before she passed. She said their hospitals were crimes compared to private medical care. Just because the government can coerce the pharmaceuticals to give them lower drug rates doesn’t make it right or make their doctors better.
Scarecrow !
I agree with you totally – “… you can keep what you have if it’s working, but you’ll have a choice if you want it, but no one will force you.” – is a brilliant statement by Obama & the Dems.
It takes away the Repugs’ fear- based talking points and sets a clear path for an affordable, efficient public option. This is the first rock that results in an avalanche toward single payer.
Right, a march toward rationed health care that doesn’t work for anyone (see Canada, England and Sweden…although Sweden is on its way to re-privatizing because there were so many complaints against their public system. The same will happen when the Tories win in Great Britain.
Um … I am Canadian and our system works very well.
You should go play with your friends over there, in that sack of Rocks …
The folks in other countries aren’t coming here for simple medical care. However, there are a lot of people from this country who go elsewhere for routine surgery.
I used to live in the Seattle area. Many women came down from Canada because they could not get decent OB/GYN services in Vancouver…Birth would seem to be one of the most basic of medical skills.
Amen and amen, Scarecrow.
RE: Loerke at 15: Many docs would rather work for pharmaceuticals than deal with the government hassles of Medicare
But there are also docs who are fed up with the insurance company controls that don’t let them practice medicine the way they know is best. Talked with an industry person the other day who left practice for that reason. And she’s a phenomenal teacher for patients, and probably others. Wish we had more like her.
RE: Loerke at 22. Please know that there is humonguous health care rationing now, in alll the private plans, Medicare and Medicaid and certainly the VA and the only “national” health care – emergency room care – as reported by someone recently. Rationed care is rampant, beginning with all kinds of exclusions, whether because of “prior conditons”, uncovered diagnostics or uncovered treatments.
Nevertheless, blessings,
Back in the 1980s I wrote computer programs for hospital billing systems for Medicaid reimbursement. I saw first hand that the procedures and diagnosis codes introduced by the GOVERNMENT to regulate reimursement ultimately would take its toll when insurance companies had to use a baseline system. With a public plan it will be 100% worse. Our VA system proves that…
When I read about Jello Jay’s public option support last night, I immediately assumed that it was just for “show”.
That he knows the bagmen for the AMA have all but sown up sufficient numbers of craven Congresscritters in both bodies to make a public option dead on arrival.
In essence, a throwaway vote and a gratuitous pandering to his state constituents, knowing full well that no Repug will ever support it, and far too many of his Democratic colleagues have already sold their souls for the health industry’s lucre.
And should a public option ever come to a vote, I suspect a large, but still a losing minority of Congresscritters will follow in Jello Jay’s footsteps, vote for it, and then shed “real” crocodile tears for its demise all the while scrambling to scoop up the campaign cash.
Might I be a cynic?
It doesn’t hurt to be a cynic.
All I meant to do with this post is point out that Jello Jay and Obama owe each other more than others in the Senate right now. That doesn’t amount to taking the jello out of the Jay Rockefeller, however.
Pot, meet kettle. *g*
strong statement from Rockefeller
Yeah and what came out of all of those false pre war intelligence investigations…nothing as far as I know. Not one friggin person held accountable for those Niger Documents and all of the rest of the false intelligence. But what the hell the folks in Congress have not lost any of their kids in a war based on a “pack of lies”
Where is Feith, Rhode, Bolton, Cambone, Liv and David Wurmser. Still working the air waves …if they have their way the next stop will be Iran.
EW/all great program on “Fall Guys (and gals)” on this American Life today. Intense and revealing interview with Lyndie England (girl with Iraqi prisoner on leash) Wonder if anyone has attempted to get this young woman to flip on her up line commanders. She sounds pissed.
http://www.thislife.org/
bmaz @6
yeah.
but i want both,
and more.
i tired of being served half a loaf,
with bullroar.
If health care reform turns into a turd, it’s affect is immediate and personal.
Unlike the climate change bill. Which may have monumental effect in the long term, but little to people personally this year.
If the government socializes medicine it will be even more personal. Good doctors won’t practice so all will be left is public doctors who are mediocre…
What’s up for consideration right now isn’t anything like socialized medicine. What’s on the table right now is a program to mandate the purchase of health insurance. The plan is a gift to the Insurance Industry.
What might come out of this planning is a public option that you can opt out of. A viable public option would be a motivator for the Insurance Companies to keep their premiums competitive. Without it, there is nothing to prevent the Insurance Co’s from raising their premiums sky high and denying coverage like they’ve been doing. If premiums for the poor get subsidized by the government the Insurance Co’s will jack up their premiums across the board. Better to have a viable public option that will be attractive and available to all citizens.
I won’t be able to get my employer health insurance when my employer decides it isn’t worth his while to pay taxes on health insurance when he can get the government to do it for him. No way. This plan is ONLY for those who refuse to work and the young who gamble on their lives anyway. We are NOT our brother’s keepers and I should not be required to subsidize someone else’s health care costs.
An independent thinker like you should be paying all your insurance premiums for your own health insurance, anyway. It’s your policy after all. You might be taking advantage of your employer.
Hard not to subsidize other peoples’ healthcare when a hospital can’t turn away uninsured individuals.
Hospitals should throw these sick and injured people out in the street, right?
Swift had it right. The poor should eat their children.
If I were self employed as I once was, I would and did. But since I work for a major defense contractor I use their health care. It would be duplicative.
Jesus wept. Would you please just go Galt.
How did it go this afternoon ?
I’ve got an Oxdown Diary up on it.
The shorter version: some of DL’s fellow-travelers were so pissed off about ACES passing yesterday that nothing else got discussed. I did make contact with Teague’s staffer for health policy and I’ll be setting up a meeting with him next week. It’s possible (no promises) that I’ll get to meet with Bingaman’s HP staffer too.
wOOt !
The rest of the gang will be glad to hear all the details.
Going over to oxdown now …
Why does every developed country with socialized medicine have better medical stats than the U.S.?
Troll.
I know, but having fun.
As long as it’s fun, dear, enjoy yourself.
How come the UK Health System tells hospital workers not to change the sheets every day in hospitals and their staph infection rates are greater than anywhere in the USA including Mississippi?
Noticed you didn’t answer my Q.
Primarily because you can’t compare apples and oranges. We have the best medicine in the world because of our procedures, pharmaceuticals and technology. Our QUALITY of life is much better with US medicine. But because of our diversity the age span length is a few years different. But the quality of care during those years is greater.
Surely you jest. Quality of life in U.S.????!!!
As Reagan said, we are the Shining City on the Hill and the last great hope of mankind.
Aha. You reveal yourself. Quoting Reagan, the last resort of scoundrels.
Usually occurs sooner than later with scoundrels, doesn’t it?
*gasp* … how can you say that, knowing how much love we all have for Saint Ronnie !
Reagan belongs on Mt. Rushmore with the Founders. He was always a Great Man. The current occupant of the White House could not hold a candle to Reagan’s little finger.
Well, what do you think Reagan did with his little finger?
Signed great tax cutting legislation and pushed the Berlin Wall so it had to fall under George H.W. Bush
Ummm. The faces on Mt Rushmore are Washington, Jefferson, Lincoln and T. Roosevelt. Only Washington and Jefferson were founders. The other major founders (Franklin and Madison) didn’t make the cut.
Ronald Reagan was a B-list actor at best. He was senile and probably suffering from Alzheimer’s during most (if not all) of his second term). He no more belongs on Mt Rushmore than you do.
Reagan belongs with Washington and Jefferson. If they need room, they could get rid of TR…
Right up there next to you? Fortunately, Reagans’ got the same chance of getting up there as you do. Which is to say, zero, zip, nada, nil.
Comparing Obama to Hitler and us to fascisti can’t be far behind now…
Now see, if you use logic and reason, you’re nevvuh going to see eye to eye with our friend …
We have what?
By every objective measure of population health status the United States is second-tier at best.
I am forced to conclude anyone who believes the U.S. has a great health care system has had little direct experience with it. Wish my family and I had been so lucky.
Excuse me…I’ve had all too much experience with it. I’m not going into the details, but thank goodness my health insurance paid what would have been a quarter of a million dollar bill for a four day stay and a lot of cutting I wish I didn’t have to have.
well day-um ..knock me over with a feather .. he really said ALL that ??
when did he get the spinal transplant ??
i call bullshit on post #10 .. i suppose all the “good doctors” could just start washing cars for a living though ..or painting houses .. but imo .. they aren’t going to give up the practice of medicine .. it’s all they know how to do …
i’d say that’s bullshit right-wing spin ..
The Repugs are going to fight a viable public option tooth and nail, as evinced by Boner’s endless tirade of banality on Friday. A sound public option will cost their donors Billions, which will result in less $$$ going to Repug coffers and this will cause them huge losses in ‘10, ‘12 and so on.
Think again. There’s already a nursing shortage. There are also many specialty shortages including OB/GYN. Many docs would rather work for pharmaceuticals than deal with the government hassles of Medicare. Many docs refuse Medicaid or Medicare patients because they can’t get paid now. With the “public” option it will be 100 times worse.
Perhaps 20 years ago Jay Rockefeller spoke about the need for better health care. In that address he mentioned that one of his children had a condition (I think it was hypertension) which resulted in uninsurability. He said that if a Rockefeller can’t obtain insurance, what does that mean for the rest of the population. While I share the dismay over much that the Senator has done in the last several years, this position is neither new nor insincere.
Isn’t this the same guy who supported protecting tortures and retroactive immunity for telecoms?
Funny that.
If you’re referring to Obama, he has also accomplished more positives in his first 6 months than any President in the last 40 years.
Then how come people stream over from Toronto to Ohio for serious heart related difficulties. They don’t have enough cardiac specialists (something I am extremely worried about) because they can’t pay cardiologists enough to keep them from coming here which has lower taxes and less difficulty getting paid.
Typical reaction of rich folks. For the hoi poloi, not so much.
I wish I WAS rich. It’s us MIDDLE class guys that are getting squeezed…
Sorry, I’m done answering dumb questions for this month … quota got filled about a week ago.
You go, Jay! You da man!!!
Absolutely correct! “A” for the semester!!!
Good to know that at least one member of the Senate understands a lick or two of econ 101.
ratfood,
Some day you will be old, have two or three life terminating illnesses, buried in debt, surrounded by senile folks and unfortunately you’re not. You will see bills that are unfathomable, unbelievable and unpayable. You will worry that you are a burden on your family, a feeling well founded in reality if you have a family. Remeber the worst horror show you have ever seen, th eone that still messes with your BMs when you think about it? Well, sweetcakes, that ain’t nothing compared to what you are in for if we all don’t get this medical problem squared up with a single payer national health care system.
Oh, heck, lack of medical care is a great incentivizer, /s.
Ahhh…out comes the kindness of the progressive. The wishing everyone the best of liberals. ONLY with private health care intact and PUBLIC plans down the PUBLIC toilet will be surive and thrive and create a smarter, more free system.
“Some day you will be old, have two or three life terminating illnesses, buried in debt, surrounded by senile folks and unfortunately you’re not.”
Care to explain why you’re teeing off on my good friend ? What gives you the right to this sanctimonious display ?
No, because of what THIS government and administration have done, inflation will force me to work into my 70s without any hope of retirement. Bitter at Obama? You bet. My 401K is worth 60% of what it was when he took office.
Better blame George Walker Bush for that one. You can toss some of the blame Clinton’s way too. He signed the repeal of Glass-Steagal.
The money went away during Obama. I was at 94% at end of year. It is ALL his fault. And yes, I and my friends vote too…and he will be rendered powerless in 2010…
You should direct your bitterness about the deline in your stocks towards the prior Administration.
In the several months before the election and then through the interregnum, the market had been tanking, due to banking collapsed brought on during the Bush Administration. These fears of a possible depression continued into January.
On Obama’s inauguration day, the S&P 500 dropped by over 5.8% to 805, which means the day before it was about 860
On Friday, June 26, the S&P stood at 920
On Obama’s inauguration day, the Dow dropped, owing to fears about the economy:
On Friday the 26th the Dow stood at 8438.
Whatever happened to you investments, for which I sympathize, it’s hard to blame them on Obama.
You might want to point a finger at the anti-regulation policies of the last decade or so, and the banksters who tanked the economy and looted their companies and then, like all good capitalists, begged the federal government to bail them out, which it did — beginning with the $700 billion bailout requested by and enacted under Bush.
Now the talk of a total financial collapse is gone, fears of a depression are much lower, and Republicans are talking about fears of inflation, which would only become relevant once a full recovery was in progress AND the Federal Reserve did nothing about interest rates, which to counter deflation/bank collapse, have been at/near historic lows.
Why do you think the market really tanked? For six months investors were afraid to invest because they were really afraid once Obama locked the nomination. The rest was history. Because I was invested correctly, I was OK until he actually took over. THen the dam was breached. Obama is a particularly vicious Socialist if not worse.
Hey Scarecrow, can you come over to BC’s post over at Oxdown and see if you can add some of your great insights – Linky
Thers up top.
DLoerke,
Would you please edit your comment into English? You might have a point worth debating.
I mean that so-called progressives really don’t have the welfare of all at heart. They say they just want some esoteric concept like “social justice” which has no meaning (justice only makes sense as an individual construct), but they hate freedom, and they are only happy when they use government to coerce themselves instead of by voluntary association. You want health care? Join a private cooperative that offers it. Nothing is stopping you…
Maybe so, but the Florida Parkway has been the Ronald Reagan Turnpike since 1998!!! Go figure!!?? A majority of nuts got that one done!!!
Okay. People. Do not engage the concern troll. Nothing useful to the discussion will result from that.
Okay, Dad.
Yaay ! Daddy’s home from da Baseball game … can we have Ice Cream now ?
There is liquor too!
*Hic* … wanna bet ?!!
Thanks for the attaboy, P.
I’ll be posting after I meet with the staffer. It’s nice to have expertise that bears directly on things. He seems interested in what I have to say.
Daddy, pretty, pretty please can I tell the troll about post hoc fallacies??? Puhleease.
And if Petro gets ice cream I want some too!
I will not question your illogical stands. They are illogical because they are based on false, liberty-hating premises.
By the way, the ICD-9CM that you used in the 80s is not an invention of the Federal Government. And all of your buds in the private insurance industry use it too.
Insurance companies use it because they were forced to by the Federal government for reimbursement purposes. That’s what happens when government gets involved. Standardized care means no individual care. You can’t do medicine “by the numbers”….Why do you think there’s concierge service? People don’t WANT to be treated as a public non-entity…
Cr*p.
You really need to stop watch Fox; it’s killing your brain cells.
Good advice, but seems to be too late … *g*
Since progressives have abandoned brains for “feelings” I think my brain cells are still probably in better shape.
Just because you don’t understand Fair and Balanced, I still do.
Ain’t no such thing on Faux News. (How many times have they ‘accidentally’ turned Rs into Ds already?)
DLoerke,
Fortunately, I have all I need re health care. What bothers me is that as a professional with some training in finace and stewardship responsibilities for thousands of households. I could not figure out my mother’s or my mother-in-law’s bills or my own when I had cancer surgery. How can that be?
Why were my mothers’ last concerns about bills and calls from hospitals and law suits with insurance companies that just decided to cut costs by re defining skilled care?
When you have been touched by this beast you will understand. Until then… as my southern friends say, “God bless your heart!!”
Thank you for what you’re doing for the cause … yoga/meditation is my field of expertise and I can tell you that one face to face, done right, is more effective than 1000 faxes or e-mails.
Can you join me at my diary, P. I want to outline my approach to the f2f.
Okay, going there now. If you see reader, get his input as well … and tell him I suggested it.
Don’t feed the troll. Don’t feed the troll. Don’t feed the troll.
DLoerke @98
First of all, I am the ONLY one of family who did not serve in the military, three generations of service in Marine, Navy, Airforce, fought in WWII, Korea and vietnam…. I know the VA system right up and personal……
Second, I have cancer, not some fluffy cancer(nothing personal) like breast cancer, I have kidney cancer that is one of the hardest cancer to kill and it has a high death rate. Ya can’t just cut it out, give a few chemo treatments and poof your cured….. I have brain and lung tumors, enlarged left groin and a possible tumor on my small intestines…
AND I have been a nurse for 35 years, worked IN the insurance industry for 11 years…… I owe a ton of money, on disability from my employer and applying for social security disabity…….
DID you know that you can’t get Medicare for 24 months after your approved for SSD?
YOU KNOW NOTHING AND HAVE NOTHING TO SAY WITH READING
I am truly sorry about your illness. I really am. My mother died of cancer. But it doesn’t make you correct on the issues.
Where’s freep when we need him?
Like MSNBC hasn’t? Those are technical glitches that happen to all of them…
The insurance business: collect premiums + deny claims = sweet profitability.
Now that’s something any REAL American should fight for. And Congress people, please continue to ignore the Finnish model of health care. The last thing Americans want is a system that covers everybody, has superior outcomes, produces healthier infants and mothers, costs 40% less per capita, and respects doctors. In fact, maybe Max Baucus, a Stanford-educated lawyer, could write-up some legislation that requires every American to go around in public with a piece of paper taped to their backs that says “Kick me, I’m an American.”
The questions our healthcare debate ignores
Why does every developed nation except the U.S. have universal healthcare? Why do they pay half as much in medical costs? Why are their infant mortality and longevity statistics superior?
By Joe Conason
‘But perhaps any discussion of healthcare in the developed world ought to begin with a plain fact noted early in this study: Among the OECD’s 30 members — which include Australia, Austria, Belgium, Canada, the Czech Republic, Denmark, Finland, France, Germany, Greece, Hungary, Iceland, Ireland, Italy, Japan, South Korea, Luxembourg, the Netherlands, New Zealand, Norway, Poland, Portugal, the Slovak Republic, Spain, Sweden, Switzerland, and the United Kingdom — there are only three lacking universal health coverage. The other two happen to be Mexico and Turkey, which have the excuse of being poorer than the rest (and until the onset of the world economic crisis, Mexico was on the way to providing healthcare to all of its citizens). The third, of course, is us.’
http://www.salon.com/opinion/c…..index.html
A very simple answer. The USA realizes we have the right to life, liberty, and property. NOT the faux “right” to have someone else pay for my health care. Any more than a faux right to eat…or a faux right for the latest computer.
Listen, people here are aware of your opinion, why don’t you find something new to carp about, this repetitive tripe out of you is getting annoying. We try to have a free and open forum here for intelligent conversation. I am willing to grant your first couple of missives on this, but you are now on about you 90th. Give it a rest. You, like everyone, are welcome to share your opinion and thoughts; you are not, however, welcome to disrupt threads because you enjoy seeing yourself portrayed as a broken record.
I am trying to get a debate on this monstrous health care and climate change tax. I can’t afford it. It would appear like the climate debate, it appears that you all wish to Soviet-style cut off debate. I am NOT trying to disrupt threads…I am trying to open a left-right debate to make better policy. But some folks like to call names and I refuse to back down because people wave the “troll” word…
Nobody is asking you to back down; I am asking that you be less of an irritant. I appreciate what you have to say, but nobody here owes you a discussion on your terms. Again, you and your views, whether they coincide with the greater group or not, are welcome and appreciated; repetitiveness to the point of annoyance because you do not get what you want, is not. It is not particularly attractive either. Personally I think you have points that ought to be part of the discussion and are valuable; it is a shame that you lose them in an effort to shout at the moon. why don’t you try engaging in a more productive manner; you might actually like it. Have a good flight.
But I’m sure you’ll all be thrilled that I’m flying home today and will be off the air for at least most of the day…