Karl Rove: That’s Why They Call It a Limited Hang-Out

Corn and Isikoff took to Hardball today to treat the information that Luskin selectively leaked as credible and complete information on Rove’s role in the US Attorney firings (to Isikoff’s credit, he makes it clear that all this–including the emails–did come from Luskin), opining based on that information that Turdblossom’s probably not in any legal trouble.

Meanwhile, a number of people finally noted–after I kept insisting on this all afternoon–that the WaPo and NYT stories yesterday were just big spin from Luskin.  Some even judged that NYT got spun much worse than the WaPo (IMO they both got spun badly, and at least NYT made Luskin’s centrality to the story explicit–my favorite comparison, btw, was from a lawyer or law professor that I’ve since misplaced).

But few people seem all that interested in why. Why–after claiming, implausibly, that Rove couldn’t speak publicly for years–Luskin arranged this nice limited hang-out just in time to pre-empt anything from HJC. Luskin went to some trouble to orchestrate yesterday’s media blitz. Don’t you think that suggests he’s got something to pre-empt or distract from? Don’t you think that ought to be the story, the proper response to such a transparent ploy from a defense attorney?

Now, there are, I think, three factors here. First–note two things Isikoff and Corn don’t mention, taking as they did the scope laid out by Luskin. They don’t mention the Don Siegelman case (which was big news in the negotiations over this testimony). And they don’t mention the two sworn witnesses (plus another witness talking to the press) who said Rove was going to fire Pat Fitzgerald (which didn’t get much coverage, but for which Isikoff has been very accommodating to Luskin on in the past). Both were within the scope of questions permitted to be asked by HJC.

I don’t guarantee that either of these will come to any fruition in the HJC inquiry. I think GregCraig pretty much set up the Siegelman inquiry to go nowhere (thanks GregCraig). And I think the timing of the attempt to fire Fitzgerald may not work out, given the scope of the HJC inquiry (that is, much of the effort took place in 2004, before the scope of HJC’s questions were permitted). But they are two areas of potential questioning that Luskin left out of yesterday’s limited hang-out.

And then there’s this, from Scott Horton (who also compares the NYT and WaPo coverage of Luskin’s blitz and finds the latter appropriately skeptical).

Indeed, the headline tells the whole story: “Rove Says His Role in Prosecutor Firings Was Small.” The problem, of course, is that the evidence the Judiciary Committee has collected, and the investigation by special prosecutor Nora Dannehy, show precisely the opposite. They put Karl Rove squarely in the center of the effort to remove the U.S. attorneys fired in the December 7, 2006 massacre, and they show that the firings were motivated by improper partisan political considerations. Rove was positioned as the enforcer of Republican Party discipline—ensuring that U.S. attorneys implement the party’s electoral program, including voter intimidation and suppression, or be forced to walk the plank.

I furnish some insights into the twin investigations and where they’re headed in “Will She or Won’t She?,”(sub. req’d) a piece appearing tomorrow in the August American Lawyer. Bottom line: the special prosecutor is studying possible indictments, recognizes that she is in essentially uncharted territory, and is still some distance short of a final decision to seek them. Alberto Gonzales, Karl Rove, and New Mexico politicians Pete Domenici and Heather Wilson are names that figure prominently in the probe.

This is, of course, the most obvious purpose for the limited hang-out: to get damning information out there in such a way so as to pitch its interpretation. And, at least according to Horton, pitch Luskin did (yeah, I know, shocker). That is, Rove has released a bunch of information that admits he was centrally involved in the Tim Griffin hiring and the Iglesias firing, but he doesn’t explain precisely why those firings and hirings happened–why the vote cager, Tim Griffin, had to be given a job in Hillary’s home state with some urgency after the 2004 elections, and why Domenici was so hot to have Iglesias fired just weeks before an election. That’s the story that didn’t get told yesterday, thanks to Luskin’s artful manipulation of the press.

If I had to guess, I don’t think Dannehy will indict Rove–at least not yet. She’d have to get Gonzales and Domenici to flip to really get Rove (and if she did, she might be looking at Bush’s involvement, too). But make no mistake–Rove is worried enough by that information that his attorney is resorting to the same tactics he used to get Rove out of trouble for leaking Plame’s identity.

  1. bobschacht says:

    Thanks, EW, for digging into this, and for looking beneath the surface.
    You have some skill for uncovering and identifying the creepy crawly things that hide under the rocks in the weeds, and I suspect there are a good many such things that can be traced ultimately to Rove. I just hope Dannehy doesn’t get knee-capped like Rove did to Fitzgerald when he probably had illegal access to whatever Fitz was going to charge him with before his Grand Jury appearances.

    Bob in HI

  2. bmaz says:

    I love Horton, but he is maybe pretty far ahead of himself here. I see scathing material, lending itself to conclusions of extremely inappropriate conduct by the parties mentioned. But I am having a real hard time seeing the actual filing of criminal charges. I just don’t buy it.

    • Rayne says:

      Don’t know, bmaz; remember Goodling admitted she broke both federal law and department policy once she’d been given immunity by Congress. What did they have on her which encouraged her to take immunity? And who might she have squealed on after accepting immunity, but out of sight of the public? We’re still inside the five-year SOL, could still put a squeeze on her for more info.

      And there’s still Sampson to flip. Rove’s Mini-me fared much better than Goodling, but he’s just as guilty as she is; you can’t tell me she had more power in the termination process than Sampson. Between Goldilocks and Mini-me, I think there must be enough to get to charges.

      The bigger unknown is the political issue, fighting headwinds on the domestic policy front while trying to see justice done concurrently. I think there’s going to be pressure to wait a bit longer if there is any trigger to be pulled on charges.

      • Citizen92 says:

        What has become of Karl’s sideshow of enablers? Where are they now?
        Susan B. Ralston, girl Friday?
        Sara Taylor, frump extraordinare?
        J Scott Jennings?
        Barry Jackson, Rove’s policy brain?
        Israel Hernandez, openly gay fellow, somehow accepted by gay-hating Karl?
        Kyle Sampson, a notch above Schlotzman?

        And what of Scott Bloch?

      • bmaz says:

        Naw, it was use immunity for purposes of the Committee investigation only. The only “crimes” she directly admitted to were violations of civil service laws as best as I can remember. Sampson has a perjury problem, which he is not likely to exacerbate by further chatting. At best, I don’t think either one of these lunks is going to get you to the kind of charges Horton is picturing. I just don’t see it.

        • earlofhuntingdon says:

          As much as I like Horton, after his wild optimism about the kind of AG Mukasey would turn out to be, I take his prognostications with a grain of salt.

    • BoxTurtle says:

      I agree, there’s nothing I see currently that could lead to criminal charges against Rove.

      That said, why the media blitz? It implies to me that there is something important that is going to become public soon. But even if they have Rove on video declaring that these USA’s gotta go because they ain’t good Bushie’s, it’s still tough to bring charges. The president can replace a USA for any reason or no reason at all. Unless they can prove obstruction of justice or that money/favors changed hands, all Karl has to say is “I advised the president, he made the decision”. Then it all falls on Bush. Which means we can impeach him if we want to, that’s really the only remedy.

      Boxturtle (Up early to take dogs to groomer, thus cynical and grumpy)

      • Rayne says:

        Hey, you know the old adage: Nobody introduces new product in August.

        Rove had to put on a full court press with the positive PR spin about his so-very-limited role during July, because nobody would bother to read it in August.

        Which means something must be coming in September, somebody else’s competing new product…

      • bmaz says:

        Right. If we cannot get the Obama/Holder DOJ to affirmatively prosecute black and white blatant torture crimes and surveillance violations etc. I just do not see why Horton thinks there are substantive prosecutions of the same key players on this obtuse and diffuse stuff. I would love to be excited about the potential, but not even close.

  3. Citizen92 says:

    This isn’t Turdblossom damage control, though. This is McCain style damage control. Admit to a lesser charge, minimize, move on. Karl would never admit to a damn thing. So Karl’s worried about something significant enough to take these ‘drastic’ steps. As I have observed before, Karl is selling his million dollar DC home in a bum market. Why would a shining star of GOP politics leave DC for… Panama City, FL? He could plan to move to a smaller place in DC, but, again, the market stinks. I have to therefore believe he’s leaving town. To be harder to find?

    Anyhoo, as you’ve pointed out, the end result of all this was a no-new news story. Today, Raw Story was running the headline “Rove Admits to Being Conduit for Voter Fraud Allegations.” This, like the rest of Karl’s “news” isn’t news.

    McClatchy in March 2007, has the White House on record saying Karl was a conduit. So Karl’s got the WaPo and NYT reporting 2 1/2 year old news? Bravo!

    The only news I see here is that Rove has his own e-mails. This despite the RNC saying that Rove’s email was regularly erased. This despite the fact that government employees are supposed to leave government work product behind… but Karl took his. If nothing else, this should be an opportunity for the National Archives to step in and take control of the “missing e-mail” records which seem to have fallen into Karls’ grubby hands.

    • bmaz says:

      I have no clue about the emails, but I suppose there is at least the possibility they were part of an exhibit pack to his depositions/interviews and that he retained copies from that. Will be interesting to see what the scoop on the emails is.

      • emptywheel says:

        That’s almost certainly what they are, bc the terms of the agreement bt HJC and ROve were that no one would release the materials until after the interview. The same condition Luskin placed on NYT and WaPo.

      • Rayne says:

        I’m having a hard time believing that Rove can keep all this straight, making sure what he says agrees 100% with Goodling, Sampson, Gonzales, while protecting his own pasty white ass. The limited hang out would have to be extremely narrow, increasing the chances it doesn’t fit.

        All that’s needed is for HJC to find Goodling didn’t fess up as required under the agreement. The IG’s report confirmed some of what Goodling did, but Rove’s additional testimony might not have agreed with Goodling’s — and then the squeeze gets applied.

        Rove may have been one of their best operators, but he’s no Superman.

    • JohnJ says:

      Why would a shining star of GOP politics leave DC for… Panama City, FL?

      Actually, Florida is compatible to an operator like TB. It’s a little different in that the corruption is out in the open and built into the system, but it is still corruption…food for an animal like Rove.

      What scares me is that Charlie Christ is looking at the Senate. This guy is a very likable idiot that thinks the Repugs are his friends; a perfect vehicle for Rove to ride back into power.

      • posaune says:

        Hate to bring up such a d—-hysterical thought, but
        what if Rove is there to help Jeb? With the field being cleared (Sanford, Ensign, Pickering, Palin)?

        • bobschacht says:

          “what if Rove is there to help Jeb?”

          Indeed. All the more reason to hold him accountable, before he can do much to assist the restoration of the Bush Monarchy.

          Bob in HI

    • emptywheel says:

      No, it is a Rove style hang-out. He did this several times during the Libby trial. Hell, he did it several times during this inquiry as well, such as when he answered a set of written questions from the Republicans that didn’t answer some key questions about his role in getting Siegelman.

      • MadDog says:

        I think Turdblossom has been doing this (limited hang-out) his entire life.

        And in Gold Bars Luskin, TB has found his perfect legal soul mate.

        One of the things that the Jason’s reference to the HJC counter statement reminds me of is that there are more turdblossoms to drop.

        And while it has become typical for Turdblossom/Gold Bars to throw the first pre-emptive whiffs, just as it is also typical for MSM stenos to smell a rose where others do not, Turdblossom/Gold Bars’ efforts never seem to last longer than for the ever-present slightest of breezes to blow the the Turdblossom/Gold Bars deoderizer away leaving once again the foulest of smells.

        In short, when Turdblossom speaks, he never really clears the air.

        Or even shorter, a Turdblossom by any other name… *g*

    • fatster says:

      Can’t help but wonder if he’s not trying to stay close to Alabama. The Canarys are there, Siegelman, and so on. There is some tin-foil type speculation about Rove and Alabama and computers calculating votes. Dunno.

      • Gitcheegumee says:

        Mornin’ fatser.

        I can’t speak to computers in Alabama, but I can speak to the allegation by Mike Connell’s family that Rove threatened them.

        Remember the Repube wunderkind who crashed his plane the DAY before he was scheduled to testify about Ohio votes being rerouted to Tennessee servers?

        Here’s a link:

        Ohio Attorneys Seek Protection for Mike Connell and his Family …Sources close to the Ohio Corrupt Practices Act/RICO claim sent us a copy of the … Connell and his family who have been allegedly threatened by Karl Rove. … of reference to the late Michael Connell and his GOP network insiders is …
        discuss.epluribusmedia.net/node/2164 – Cached – Similar

        • fatster says:

          Ah, yes, that plane crash. Thnx so much, Gitcheegumee. This stuff gets buried so quickly that it takes a small army of highly-motivated folks to scurry around and keep track of all the threads. Someday, perhaps, it will all come together here at EW’s place and the Grand Unified Field theory will be laid out clearly for all. Good on you for staying with this one. It stinks to high heaven.

          • posaune says:

            Ah yes, there will be a unified field theory. Marcy’s unified field from a zillion timeslines drawn right on the walls all over her house. Only a matter of time before we see EW’s Rise & Fall of the Bush Reich.

  4. Loo Hoo. says:

    Imagine living such a slimy life. Walking around shaking the slime off your arms before shaking someone’s hand.

  5. JasonLeopold says:

    Did you guys see this statement that HJC put out yesterday after the Post and Times interviews were published? Wouldn’t this serve to sort of debunk what Isikoff and Corn said?

    “It’s hardly surprising that Mr. Rove would minimize his involvement in the U.S. attorney firings or that selectively leaked documents would serve his version of events. The committee believes that the full record will show Mr. Rove’s role in the firing of the U.S. attorneys was more substantial than his statements to the media indicate.”

      • JasonLeopold says:

        You illustrated that incredibly well. I strayed from your central point after seeing the Isikoff/Corn clip

    • Nell says:

      Thanks, Jason, that is an encouraging paragraph. Who are the senior staffers for the Judiciary Committee, do you know?

  6. JasonLeopold says:

    Also, I spoke to Iglesias yesterday and he said he hasn’t been interviewed by Dannehy yet but expects to be.

    On the Domenici/Dannehy thing that Horton mentions, it’s obviously unknown how much hot water he’s in, but back in April she interviewed Scott O’Neal, the assistant FBI special agent in charge of the Albuquerque field office.

    It is believed the interview centered on an alleged briefing O’Neal and his boss gave to Domenici shortly before the 2006 midterm elections regarding the federal corruption probe involving Manny Aragon, a prominent New Mexico Democrat, and whether Iglesias intended to secure an indictment against the individual before Election Day.

    Domenici may have used information he received during the alleged briefing to make a case to White House and Justice Department officials that Iglesias should be removed as the state’s U.S. Attorney.

    Domenici was allegedly told by O’Neal and another FBI special agent that they had completed the corruption probe earlier in the year and that Iglesias should have secured indictments.

    The alleged briefing to Domenici about the status of the corruption probe would have required Iglesias’s approval and according to his former colleagues and two Justice Department sources neither FBI agent O’Neal nor his superiors made a formal request.

    • klynn says:

      Also, I spoke to Iglesias yesterday and he said he hasn’t been interviewed by Dannehy yet but expects to be.

      On the Domenici/Dannehy thing that Horton mentions, it’s obviously unknown how much hot water he’s in, but back in April she interviewed Scott O’Neal, the assistant FBI special agent in charge of the Albuquerque field office.

      Don’t you save your best interviews for last?

    • Gitcheegumee says:

      Fired U.S. attorney Daniel Bogden is re-nominated by Obama for his former position.
      Today, President Obama nominated four individuals to serve as U.S. attorneys — most notably Daniel Bogden in Nevada. “These fine men and women have demonstrated the extensive knowledge of the law and deep commitment to public service Americans deserve from their United States Attorneys,” said Obama in a statement.

      Bogden has actually already served as a U.S. attorney, but he was ousted in the Bush administration’s political purge. Even Sen. John Ensign (R-NV) said that the case had been “completely mishandled” by then-attorney general Alberto Gonzales. Senate Majority Leader Harry Reid (D-NV) has been pushing the White House to bring back Bogden.

      Think Progress

      Hmm,and from a big gambling state ,a reinstatement….

      • Rayne says:

        Must qualify what I’m going to say here as speculation on my part, but I believe Daniel Bogden may have been one of the USAs terminated because of rumors about his sexuality. At one point in the emails exchanged between different members of the conspiracy to remove USAs, it’s suggested that Bogden is appointed to different role; the reply included an observation that Bogden was “over 50 and unmarried”. That’s dog whistle for “gay.”

        If you recall, USA-WMich Margaret Chiara was also over 50 and unmarried. Ahem.

        Bogden may also have had a few other marks against him, including treatment of so-called “voter fraud,” which if you recall was an issue in Nevada this past year. Another black mark may have been handling any case against Native Americans too equitably; I don’t have info to support this, but it’s an M.O. that most of the targeted USAs had solid relationships with tribal nations.

        • bmaz says:

          All correct. There appears to be some discord, fair or unfair (and I am not sure which yet) over his re-appointment though.

        • Gitcheegumee says:

          Well, my comment @44 pretty much explains their “logic” for dismissing Daniel Bogden and Margaret Chao-or was it Chiara?

          BTW, how is it that Heather Wilson is STILL there?Domenici left,but Wilson is still up to her earlobes in this.

          • Rayne says:

            Goodling was only the tool to do the dirty work.

            There are several different and possibly interrelated reasons why the eight or nine USAs known to be relieved were targeted; what we don’t yet have is documentation to confirm this.

            Doesn’t it seem very odd that the USAG stopped issuing press releases about changes to committees like its Native American Issues Subcommittee shortly after Gonzales became AG?

            Doesn’t it seem very odd that at least 7 of the 8 known dismissed USAs also were members of the NAIS?

            Doesn’t it seem very odd that a majority of the dismissed USAs not only had tribal lands in their districts, but FERC right-of-ways?

            That there were pressures to remove Carol Lam and David Iglesias because of investigations into political opponents/proponents in their states or districts could be a distraction, or additional weighting towards relieving them.

            [edit: weird, edit function isn’t working properly, won’t save changes properly…anyhow, it’s definitely Chiara and not Chao. Chiara was a former prosecutor from a conservative county here in Michigan, had been highly thought of before the USA dismissal debacle.]

  7. alinaustex says:

    What could be another interesting aspect of watching the Turdblossom Express slowly pull out of the station – is that that at least down here in Texas there is now -open , public and bitter disputes raging between the “moderate ” Republicans – (think all of Pappa Bush’s crew -James Baker , Gen Scowcroft ) vs the ‘neocon/christainist ” Republicans- ( think Dick Cheney , Grover Norquist ,Pat Robertson ).And this mini civil war is being played out by proxy in our Republican gubnatorial primary – the moderates backing Kay Bailey Hutchinson, the neocon/christianist backing Gov ( lets leave the union ) Rick Perry.
    More interesting still is the context in which this interparty dispute is evolving – the moderates it appears are completely pissed off at what carnage the eight years of gwb43 wrought on the GOP ,and the country. And its being consistently stated that the moderates not only want back in charge -but that many want the neocons to be held accountable so that they might not never regain power . And too me that the most interesting aspect of this interparty meltdown – it appears that the moderates would like to throw Rove /Cheney under the bus -and for Pappa Bush – this has become personal – the way Shrub’s reputation/legacy has been tarnished – more importantly the way a CIA covert NOC was “outted ” & entire network of intelligence gathering was disrupted by this politically motivated ‘outting ” – Remember that Pappa Bush at one time was the CIA director . Remember too that the “neocons/christianist ” basically abandoned Pappa Bush in the 1992 election – and with Mr Perot running as a third party candidate -it just about guarenteed that Bill Clinton would go to the Whitehouse ,
    So as this has become personal , and as there may still may be some very damning evidence against Rove ( think missing emails suddenly being found ) ,and that James Baker might now have been told to take down the neocons – this is for from over . And the Turdblossom Express , and all of its neo christainist passengers/fellow travelers could yet be derailed –

    • RevBev says:

      That is so good. Thank you…and word has been that Poppa has hated Rove for years, even as he/Rove clung to W. I saw funny coverage of KB Hutchison lamenting Gov Rick’s 15 years. Fun

      • Gitcheegumee says:

        Poppy’s “Rove” was Lee Atwater,whom Rove was understudy to ,in the GOP bottomless bag of dirty- tricks- r- us bagmen.

  8. GregB says:

    The Bush/Rove scumbggery never ceases to amaze me. They dragged this shit out forever. The perfect slow walking a story to death.

    Its old hat now. No need to look behind us, unless it is a blowjob, of course.


    P.S. Bernie Madoff should have hit up the rubes at the NYT’s. They’ll buy anything.

  9. earlofhuntingdon says:

    If anything Luskin leaked was unfavorable to Rove, even the DC bar would discipline him. Even a NY Times reporter would know that anything Luskin leaked was meant to put Rove in the best light imaginable. It could hardly be taken as an objective evaluation of the “state of play” or of Rove’s odds of being indicted.

  10. earlofhuntingdon says:

    What are we to make of Obama’s re-nominating Daniel Bogden to be USA in Nevada? Is that intended to better police the gaming state, to curry favor (with Ensign or Reid?), to deepen the Democratic legal bench, or to be the sole response to the US Attorney firing?

  11. emptywheel says:

    Even a NY Times reporter would know that anything Luskin leaked was meant to put Rove in the best light imaginable.

    One would think!

    They should have titled their article “This is the best spin imaginable for Rove at this point.”

  12. Gitcheegumee says:

    Contray to the opinion of some, I don’t believe Greg Craig has the Seligmnan case sewed up.

    The entire history of this case has been of especial interest to me as I have extensive familial ties to Alabama.

    It is well established that Rove and Abramoff were peas in a pod.BOTH started out in the Young Republican movement together, in college. Karl began his apprenticeship Dirty-tricks-R- us BACK THEN.

    (BTW, Karl is a member of the C Street group for years now.)

    Now, Abramoff,many years ago had partnered with a lobbyist named Haley Barbour.

    Fast forward twenty five or so years later,Abramoff has become black hat Jack-lobbyist extraordinaire and GOP fix-it guy.

    Barbour is now Governor of Missippi,Alabama’s next door neighbor and home to EXTREMELY lucrative Indian tribal casinos.

    Alabama, however,is of especial interest to Abramoff.( will post linky following this comment)

    BTW, doesn’t anyone but me find it strange that an urbane individual such as Rove would choose Alabama as his place of resiedence-the Redneck Riviera in particular?

  13. R.H. Green says:

    Rove is a rival to Churchill in mastery of the English language. By pre-emptivly framing the issues to come, he concisely manages to do several things. First he reduces the story to a one line yawner’ “I was a conduit”. Second he frames it as past tense; third, and brilliantly invokes the passive voice. This last feature presents events as having occurred, but without any action, and, of course, without any actor. “I didn’t do anything; my phone just rang”. You can see why he’s so well paid.

  14. Gitcheegumee says:


    McCain Withheld Controversial Abramoff EmailFeb 25, 2008 … See the Abramoff email below. On the stump, Sen. …. Silent and hidden from view. Posted 12:38 AM on 02/26/2008 …
    http://www.huffingtonpost.com/……..88304.html – Cached – Similar

    Legal Schnauzer: The E-Mail John McCain Does Not Want You to ReadHow damning is the e-mail evidence that McCain kept hidden? Well, let’s ponder the following e-mail from Abramoff to Scanlon on December 9, …
    legalschnauzer.blogspot.com/…/e-mail-john-mccain-does-not-want-you-to.html – Cached – Similar

  15. Gitcheegumee says:

    Siegelman soldiered on after the 2002 loss, running again for governor against Riley in 2006. By then, the extent of Riley’s connection to Abramoff was still unknown.

    Moreover, Siegelman was still under investigation for allegations of bribery. The inquiry, detailed in an extensive 60 Minutes report last night, raised many ethical red flags, mainly over political interference from the Bush administration, specifically Karl Rove. On June 22, McCain issued his Senate report without mentioning Riley’s name. And one week later, Siegelman was convicted without the Abramoff email ever being made public.

    “If you had a document that showed something that had not been reported about the financial reports and the direct expectations for that money,” said a source familiar with the case, “that certainly would have called into attention the government’s case against Siegelman.”

    McCain Withheld Controversial Abramoff EmailFeb 25, 2008 … See the Abramoff email below. On the stump, Sen. …. Silent and hidden from view. Posted 12:38 AM on 02/26/2008 …
    http://www.huffingtonpost.com/……..88304.html – Cached – Similar

  16. Citizen92 says:

    @28 GG – now that Mike Connell is “dead” has anyone requested his FBI file?

    @30 GG – Alabama and Mississippi really seem to be ground zero for dirty tricks. You’ve got Haley over in MS, a DC dirty tricks operator for years (RNC, phone jamming, BGR Group) then decamped to Jackson. Haley, of course, links in with C-Streeter Chip Pickering, having kept Chip’s wife on the GOP gravy train for years with ‘events’ and ‘consulting’ work. That’s why Chippy’s wife is pissed – she lost her livelihood. I’m wondering what Haley’s next move will be. And then Alabama. Karl Rove’s judicial playpen. Alabama’s state elections finance system is where Tom DeLay ran all of his illegal campaign finance laundering passthroughs. Gov. Riley is a C-Street alum, too. Remember the Triad Fundraising Scandal of ‘96, one that disproportionately favored Riley when he was running for his House seat? That little gem operated a few doors away from the C Street house, under the direction of a woman named Carolyn Malenick. I’m half wondering if Alabama’s recently reported financial crisis, where Birmingham’s county is going to have the shed 1,400 jobs and Riley won’t declare an “emergency”… wondering if that is the next ‘perfect petri dish of capitalism?’

    • Gitcheegumee says:


      I was on teh Internets last night reading about the woes of Birmingham, and thinking to myself-”Well,this is how it looks when the GOP Free Market chickens finally come home to roost.”

      The GOP in Alabama has plucked EVERYONE”S nest clean up there in Jefferson County.

      The first thing that came to my mind was the billions in tax subsidies that Shelbuy and Co. gave to foreign car makers(although I don’t think thats in Birmingham,btw.)

      What is going on in Birmingham needs to be put on the front page of EVERY Dem leaning and Progessive blog on teh Internets.The Free Market isn’t so damn “Free”,now ,is it?

      Now, not to get too off base(or too base,period) here, but ANOTHER Alabama absurdity I saw this A.M.-Moblie Police arrest 82 year old woman for urinating in some shrubbery at Bienville Square.

      WHAT-and the politicos have been sh—–g openly on us for years-and no one’s been arrested yet for that!

  17. Gitcheegumee says:


    Former DeLay Aide Enriched By Nonprofit – washingtonpost.comA top adviser to former House Whip Tom DeLay received more than a third of all the money collected by the U.S. Family Network, a nonprofit organization the …
    http://www.washingtonpost.com/wp-dyn/…..01166.html – Similar

    Show more results from http://www.washingtonpost.com
    The U.S. Family Network | Fired Up! AmericaThe U.S. Family Network was a DeLay-Blunt controlled front group that was largely funded by Jack Abramoff’s clients and the National Republican …
    http://www.firedupamerica.com/u_s_family_network – Cached – Similar

    LOTS of money re: Riley funding was passed through U.S. Family Network.

  18. Gitcheegumee says:


    “The Born Again Nativity of G.W. Bush

    G.W.H.Bush had reason to be thankful to the Christian fundamentalists. They helped his son, George W. Bush, avoid a certain court martial and prison time.
    On or about April 18, 1972, the Houston Police arrested First Lieutenant George W. Bush of the Texas Air National Guard for possession of cocaine. Bush and a friend were booked into the Harris County jail
    Senior Bush arranged for his son to serve at a religious drug and alcohol rehabilitation center in San Diego between May and November 1972. Conservative San Diego was a major center for Fellowship activities.

    The time Bush spent in religious rehab in San Diego represents part of the famous “gap” in Bush’s National Guard service record. According to a fitness report on Bush issued by the White House in 2004, Bush was “Not rated for the period 1 May 72 through 30 Apr 73.
    Report for this period not available for administrative reasons.” This represents the time Junior Bush was being shown the way from drugs to Jesus in San Diego and afterwards, his court-ordered community service penance in Houston.

    The senior Bush arranged to have the arrest record on Junior expunged and even his name removed from the police blotter. Later, a ruse that Junior Bush went to Alabama to work on the Republican Senate campaign of Winton Blount was concocted to throw off nosy opposition research investigators and journalists. The deception worked.

    “Expose’:Christian Mafia”,Online Journal

  19. BruceWebb says:

    Well the smoking gun has been in front of us from Day One.

    Monica Goodling’s job was to serve as the DOJ’s White House Liaison. The only logical reason for Gonzales to delegate hiring decisions to the White House Liaison is so that those decisions could be coordinated with the White House.

    Because I can look at the DOJ Org chart and find at least three offices better suited to oversee these kind of hiring decisions. http://www.usdoj.gov/dojorg.htm On the other hand it might have been a little suspicious if one of the offices were in constant contact with the WH political operation. On the other hand such contacts were quite literally part of Monica’s job description.

    You can explain about 90% of the way the Bush/Cheney/Rove operation worked vis a vis US Attorney hirings and the like by one simple fact: the believed their Permanent Majority hype. The fondly imagined that a quick and bloodless victory in Iraq would open all doors at home and abroad and assure that they never, ever would have any scrutiny ever, meaning little need to cover their tracks, they could politicize everything right out in the open.

    We are not likely to get any real accountability from these guys in any event, we can only imagine where this country would be if the PNAC fantasy had any connection to reality. It must have been pretty damn exhilerating to be GWB is the wake of the AUMF. Because there was nothing to stop him from anything. Ever!

    Well except that epic fail thing. But houcouldanode.

  20. Gitcheegumee says:

    re: Monica Goodling

    Is it just happenstance that Monica Goodling was an alumna of Regent University law School. That is the FundaMENTALIST University run by Pat Roberston,TV Evangelist?

    I think about 150 or so of teh Regent U grads were employed during. the GWB reign.

    Now Pat Robertson himself has a particularly intriguing history. His fathjer was a politician,btw. It has been reported that much of Robertson’s initail financing for his Evangelical TV network came from Sun Yung Moon,who now owns the Washington Times, but back then was allegedly importing China White.

    What is NOT in dispute is that BOTH Moon and Robertsona are and have been Street fellowship group ,called the “Family.”

    Here’s some background on Regent University Law School.

    I report you decide:

    School of Law

    The law school was founded in 1986.[18] The law school was approved by the American Bar Association (”ABA”) in 1989[19] and received full accreditation in 1996.[20] The Law Library received the bulk of its collection after Oral Roberts University School of Law closed and donated its library to Regent University.[21]

    Admission policies
    While academic credentials are important, the admissions process also places emphasis on personal statements and recommendation letters. According to Regent, the school seeks students who are “dedicated to becoming Christian leaders who will change the world for Christ” and want “to receive a legal education integrated with Christian principles.”[22]

    Law students publish the Regent Law Review, established in 1991. The journal describes itself as “committed to a jurisprudence based upon a Higher Law; that is, law based upon the Law of God, yet remains open to publishing opposing viewpoints in certain contexts.” Previous contributors include United States Supreme Court Justice Clarence Thomas, Attorney General John D. Ashcroft, Judge Edith H. Jones, Attorney General Edwin Meese III, Robert P. George, George Allen, Nancy R. Pearcey, Charles E. Rice, Phillip E. Johnson, Charles W. Colson, and David Barton.[23]

    Additionally, the students publish the Regent Journal of International Law, founded in 2000, and the Regent Journal of Law & Public Policy, founded in 2008.[24]

    [edit] Rankings
    U.S. News & World Report ranks Regent University School of Law as a Tier 4 school, [30] the lowest ranking within the law school category.[31] The Princeton Review ranked Regent University seventh in the country for quality of life[32] and the most conservative school.[33] The Sustainable Endowments Institute in Cambridge, Mass., gave Regent a grade of D in its 2009 College Sustainability Report Card[34][35] an improvement from the previous year’s F grade.[36]

  21. bobschacht says:

    ”Well the smoking gun has been in front of us from Day One. Monica Goodling’s job was to serve as the DOJ’s White House Liaison. The only logical reason for Gonzales to delegate hiring decisions to the White House Liaison is so that those decisions could be coordinated with the White House.”

    Not to mention Sen. Sheldon Whitehouse’s brilliant graphic showing more than 100 allowed contacts between the Bush WH and the DOJ– and that’s just on the org chart.

    Bob in HI

  22. bobschacht says:

    Gitcheegumee @ 32:
    ”McCain Withheld Controversial Abramoff EmailFeb 25, 2008 … See the Abramoff email below. On the stump, Sen. …. Silent and hidden from view. Posted 12:38 AM on 02/26/2008 … http://www.huffingtonpost.com/……..88304.html”

    That ain’t all he’s sitting on. He’s also withholding hundreds of thousands of emails collected when he was chair of the Interior committee, and that by some stupid ”gentleman’s agreement” he is allowed to hold in escrow even though he’s no longer chair. Thar’s gold in them thar bills. Someone over at dKos has been following this story. If the Dems were really interested, they would shake McCain upside down by his ankles until all the coins fall out of his pockets.

    Bob in HI

    • jakebob says:

      You Betcha Doggone it!
      Mr McCain, among his other claims-to-fame, is a leading Enabler After the Fact of the BIA’s heinous treatment of our Native Americans, by “virtue” of his choosing to keep Interior/BIA records “archived”.
      Senator! Yeah, you…. Daniel Inouye! Why have you been so quiet on this score???? Sorry to interrupt you collegial little nap and all, but…

  23. Gitcheegumee says:

    Documents show that Goodling, who has asserted her Fifth Amendment right against self-incrimination to avoid testifying before Congress, was one of a handful of officials overseeing the firings. She helped install Timothy Griffin , the Karl Rove aide and her former boss at the Republican National Committee, as a replacement US attorney in Arkansas.

    Sheldon Whitehouse, Democrat of Rhode Island, asked at a hearing: “Should we be concerned with the experience level of the people who are making these highly significant decisions?”

    And across the political blogosphere, critics have held up Goodling, who declined to be interviewed, as a prime example of the Bush administration subordinating ability to politics in hiring decisions.

    Not long ago, it was rare for Regent graduates to join the federal government. But in 2001, the Bush administration picked the dean of Regent’s government school, Kay Coles James , to be the director of the Office of Personnel Management — essentially the head of human resources for the executive branch. The doors of opportunity for government jobs were thrown open to Regent alumni.

    Many of those who have Regent law degrees, including Goodling, joined the Department of Justice. Their path to employment was further eased in late 2002, when John Ashcroft , then attorney general, changed longstanding rules for hiring lawyers to fill vacancies in the career ranks.

    Previously, veteran civil servants screened applicants and recommended whom to hire, usually picking top students from elite schools.

    Bsoton Globe,”Scandal Puts Spotlight…”

  24. Gitcheegumee says:

    Don’t you mean that if they would shake McCain upside down by his ankles until all the casino gambling chips fall out of his pockets….?

    It has eluded me that most ,not all, but most blogs have not noticed that almost all the pols tahtthe GOP that has been pushed as possible frontrunners for TOP GOP positions,even Presidential contenders, have been- or are =Governors of states that have billions of dollars in gambling revenue reunning through tem.

    John Ensign is out now,but that was Nevada.

    Piyush “Booby” Jindal of Louisiana-home of Indian tribes and non Indian gambling.

    Haley Barbour of Mississippi-LOTS of tribal gaming in that state.

    Can anybody name some other gambling states and Govs?

    Now tribal casinos are NOT subject to the Feds in ANY way.

    Consider the possiblity for graft and money laundering.

    I’m not accusing,just sayin’.

    Check out a riveting article by a guy named Mark Levey. He posts a journal called leveymg’s Journal.

    Entitled, “The Crimes and Cover-up of John McCain,Reformer.”



  25. NorskeFlamethrower says:


    Citizen emptywheel:

    Thank you so much again for keeping all the criminality and treason of the last administration in front of us…for my part, I want to see healthcare reform first and then hearings, indictments, prosecutions and convictions of these crypto-Nazis.


  26. Gitcheegumee says:


    I think you might be referring to dengre’s superior post,last January.

    Daily Kos: The Abramoff Scandal is Expanding: More GOP woes for …The Abramoff Scandal is Expanding: More GOP woes for 2009… by dengre · Digg this! Share this on Twitter – The Abramoff Scandal is Expanding: More GOP woes …
    http://www.dailykos.com/story/2009/1/…..30;/679346 – Cached – Similar

  27. bobschacht says:

    Gitcheegumee @ 54,
    Yeah, Dengre’s the one:

    ”In the past, I have written about the 750,000 pages of Abramoff scandal documents that were gathered by John McCain and the Senate’s Indian Affairs Committee investigation of the Abramoff scandal. That is a lot of documents, but it is a small pile of paper when compared to the documents gathered by the Department of Justice in their ongoing investigation of the scandal.”

    I had in mind posts of his like this one:

    Daily Kos,Apr 15, 2007
    UPDATE. Smoking gun: the Senate has the documents…

    [Sorry, edit functions not available. My browser is hanging on ”Transferring data from a.tribalfusion.com…”]

    I think many of the Bush administration emails that were ”lost” are in this cache, which was collected while Republicans were still in charge of Congress, and hence had not yet purged their files. I am glad to see Dengre’s reporting on the Abramoff investigations. They give me some hope.

    Bob in HI

  28. Gitcheegumee says:


    I just got a mental image of Rove,as a field hand,chopping away at those pesky GOP weeds,like Ensign,Palin,Pickering,etc.

    Think he EVER did manual labor in his entire life?

  29. bobschacht says:

    Mr McCain, among his other claims-to-fame, is a leading Enabler After the Fact of the BIA’s heinous treatment of our Native Americans, by “virtue” of his choosing to keep Interior/BIA records “archived”.

    The guy on dKos who has been tracking this “archive” is Dengre. As massive as that archive is (750,000 documents), apparently the on-going Abramoff investigation is even larger. It is by no means “over,” even if you haven’t heard much about it lately.

    The thing I like about the McCain Interior/BIA records archive is that it was gathered while the Republicans were still “in charge” of Congress, and were dreaming about “the permanent Republican majority.” That was before Cheney, Rove, and others started “losing” all their files.

    Bob in HI

  30. whenpigsfly says:

    I think GregCraig pretty much set up the Siegelman inquiry to go nowhere (thanks GregCraig).

    EW, please explain how he’s doing that.

  31. Gitcheegumee says:

    No, it isn’t odd,imho.

    It is part of the plan.

    On one of the threads yeaterday-I don’t recall which, I posited the observation that the GOP frontrunners,the future wunderkind and heirs apparent -for the most part,ALL had gambling in their states.

    Specifically of note is Bobby Jindal.LOTS of tribal and NON tribal casinos there.

    When you stop and consider that tribal lands and tribal casinos are not under federal law-no income tax-and that John McCain -head of BIA- has issues with gambling himself,the plot thickens.(Remember hiding Abramoff e-mails?)

    And not of small note is the BILLIONS of dollars of tribal money the BIA is SUPPOSED to have held in trust,earning interest ,the plot thickens more.

    I will try to locate story and link regarding that last sentence.

  32. Gitcheegumee says:


    Rayne, may I give you my take on what I find truly odd?

    Check this story out:

    A Native American feather flies with the Star of David – ISRAEL21cMar 2, 2009 … At first glance, there seems to be little in common between Israel and the 862 member Native American Coushatta Tribe, from Louisiana. …
    http://www.israel21c.org/bin/en.jsp?enDispWho… – Cached – Similar—————

    Now what constitutes oddity in this case,and imho,is that this tribe-the Coushattas-was the tribe that testified before Congress and BIA AGAINST Abramoff.

    There were emails produced where Scanlon and Abramoff referred to members of this tribe as troglodytes and monkeys.

    It has been well established that Abramoff was sending millions back to Isreal to statr a school therAll perceptions are subjective.

    I perceive this to be odd,indeed.

  33. Gitcheegumee says:


    “In 1994 the Business Council of Alabama hired Rove as a consultant for a judicial campaign. Rove worked alongside Republican activist/lobbyist Bill Canary, now the CEO of the Business Counsel of Alabama, to help deliver Alabama’s Supreme Court to the Republicans. In 1998 Rove advised William Pryor in his successful bid for Alabama Attorney General. It was Pryor who would go on to seal the ballots for Baldwin County that would give Bob Riley the margin of victory in his bid to unseat Democratic Governor Don Siegelman.”===================Raw Story

    Fatster, wasn’t Leura Canary involved with inapprpriate communications with jurors in the Siegelman trial?

    WHEN will the canaries start singing about Karl?

  34. Gitcheegumee says:


    The Remarkable ‘Recusal’ of Leura Canary—By Scott Horton (Harper’s …Alabama media continue to report uncritically on almost every statement that emanates from the office of Leura Canary, the U.S. Attorney in Montgomery, …
    http://www.harpers.org/archive/2007/09/hbc-90001209 – Cached – Similar

    U.S. Attorneys Scandal: Removal of Canary Sought as Paulose …Alabama’s number one power couple, suggests Time Magazine, consists of Leura Canary, the U.S. Attorney in Montgomery, and her husband William J. Canary, …
    http://www.harpers.org/archive/2007/11/hbc-90001711 – Cached – Similar

    • fatster says:

      You’ve answered your own question. What gets me is that she’s still on the job. ObamaCo recently replaced one of the US Attorneys in AL–why not Leura?

      (P.S. Do ya think Lurita and Leura are related?)

  35. alinaustex says:

    [email protected]
    But the rest of the story as Paul Harvey used to say.. is that Lee Attwater was trying to atone for his dirty tricks and on his death bed denounced all those dirty trickster starting with Segretti .Furthermore Pappa Bush always was uncomfortable with the Nixon style campaign that the right wing Republicans have for so long embraced. And several usually reliable local Texas sources say that Pappa is having James Baker counsel Shrub on how to best protect the “Deciders ” legacy – which is getting even more dicier everyday . And to paraphrase another loyal moderate GOP soldier/statesman Richard C Armitage (who was also badly burned by the Cheney neocons) There will be no one left with out a dirty skirt from gwb43 administration -and some of us should have resigned early on in protest “-
    This is the context that this intercine tussle is going on with the GOP between the moderates and rightwing radicals that hijacked dubya ’s administration .
    This tussle is important for progressives for several reasons ; but here are two very good ones
    1) it could very well mean the destruction of the gop as we now know it
    2) it could allow openings for more criminal prosecutions of the neo cons if the moderates are not going to give a ratass about who gets thrown under the bus as long as the Bush legacy is protected .( And yes this could be disaster remediation to decontiminant the gop for Jeb’s run )
    My prediction is that as this inter-party conflict continues to escalate -incriminating emails and other evidence will be made available to Senator Whitehouse and others -and Turdblossom will be going to jail – You see James Baker has got his orders Pappa is pissed off – And James Baker has been at this alot lot longer then have many of those rightwing nutjobs , Plus Baker is not at all intimidated by Cheney and the rest of his crew…

  36. Gitcheegumee says:

    Well, al,I SURE appreciate your feedback.

    I love me some Austin. Yes,they say Atwater “saw the light” on his deathbed.

    Perhaps Shrubya will have a second come to Jesus moment,with the help of the “Family.”

    Jim Baker and Poppy need to be concerned about their OWN legacies,with Republic and Riggs banks involved in the original heist of America some 25 years ago-namely BCCI…which had the same cast of characters in thelatest meltdown hold-up of 2008 under little arbusto.

    Baker has plenty of aces from that interlude,I’m sure. But you can’t throw dirt without gettin’ some on your own skirts.And,as Molly Ivins said,

    “You still gotta dance with them who brung ya.”

    Wonder how many will still be dancing when all is said and done?

  37. Gitcheegumee says:


    It is so odd you should mention Segretti. Many I’m sure don’t even remember the name. I was just reading about him a couple of days ago.

    Here’s the passage:

    “The aftermath of Watergate had a disastrous effect on mainstream Republicans, many of whom went down to defeat in the 1974 elections. But Watergate permitted a new breed of Republicans, those of the right-wing fundamentalist Christian variety, to advance up the political ladder. After Nixon’s “Southern Strategy,” which saw large numbers of Democrat white segregationists in the South convert to the Republican Party, the fundamentalist conservative Republicans had a ready-made flock of supporters.

    Several foot soldiers of the extreme right would emerge from this period. One young Texas college apprentice of Nixon’s chief dirty tricks sorcerer Donald Segretti, Karl Christian Rove, was one of them. There were also credible reports that Segretti used members of the neo-Nazi National Socialist White People’s Party in Los Angeles to engage in dirty tricks on behalf of the Nixon campaign.

    Rove was a Norwegian-American with a penchant for evangelical politics. Rove’s decidedly un-Christian method for going below the belt politically earned him the attention and interest of the Chairman of the Republican National Committee, George H. W. Bush.

    The 22-year-old Rove, who dropped out of college, decided to run for Chairman of the College Republicans. The coordinator of his campaign in the southern states was Lee Atwater, another noted dirty tricks operator. Both Rove and Atwater would rise to prominence as members of the Bush Dynasty’s inner circle.”

    “Expose:Christian Mafia”,Online Journal

    • Rayne says:

      That bit about Segretti using the white nationalists is something we should be studying, as I suspect we are seeing a return to this M.O. with the use of race baiting. The question will be whether this is the work of the really dirty fighters among social conservatives, or a bastardized version of Deadeye’s squads.

      • Gitcheegumee says:

        Have you read the piece by Gore Vidal over at Alternet yet?


        Entitled “America the Great…Police State”.

        There is an alarming ,accepted escalation of racial profiling and abuse of authority by the boys in blue….or should I say Brownshirts?

        This Gates incident has NOT given me confidence that those in authority,starting with the local beat cop,will be held to a higher standard that their positions of authority demand.

  38. alinaustex says:

    [email protected] 82 ,
    The point I was making is surely that the GOP as we know it apears to be disntergrating before our very eyes . I was not by any means trying to paint this gop meltdown as any kind of ‘good guys vs bad guys ” .To me -its more like watching two organized crime syndicates fight over receding profits and turf . You are absoulutely correct – Pappa Bush is connected to ,BCCI and its ilegal activities funding Ollie North ,Pappa Bush also went to war with Saddam the first time over Oil – (its even been reported that Pappa Bush help run Saddam and other Baathist leadership as a cia assets when Pappa was the DCI ) .Again the point in my view in this intraparty meltdown is to exploit it – to further the progressive agenda.
    Kay Bailey Hutchinson is the corporatist gop gubanatorial candidate , Gov Rick (Lets Secede )Perry is the christian mafia /necocon candidate and right now as we speak it is an ongoing donnybrook between them .
    Now if the Democrats are smart we will exploit this divison and run State Senator & former Mayor of Austin Watson as our candidate -and leave former Dubya appointed ambassador Schieffer where he belongs with the moderate Kay Bailey Hutchinson campaign .
    And many,many of us sorely mourn Molly Ivins passing still – we miss her wit, her wisdom , her political insights – but most of all we miss her Courage, and Persistence. And more then likely she would have endorsed Watson by now -even though he said he has not made up his mind to run yet .
    And many of us never knew Molly personally – but we all felt she was our friend and mentor from her writing . It ain’t no telling how much fun she would have had writing about this gop present day meltown – karma is a coming for kkkARL , …and for the rest of the gop …

  39. alinaustex says:

    Rayne @ 88 .
    The Obama Presidency has bought out all the race baiting wing nuts- “a rose by any other name ” .What gets me is we have been seeing this comtemperanouesly for a good while with no real pushback – think the Brook Brother riots in Florida during the 2000 disputed election .What further gets me is that a former Nixon plumber, ex convict G Gordon Liddy is given prime air time on Chris Matthew’s show. I really am beginning to believe that all the crazy reactionary wingnuts have united -Segretti was an operator that stayed out of the limelight – that is what made him very dangerous -right now all of this white nationalist /racist/ fascist /christian mafia is all out in the open -Lou Dobbs is even defending these nut bars-which means we may have an opportunity to confront these pissants – And all of this goes back to the Dixiecrats who abandoned LBJ when the civil rights bill passed. My hope & belief is that this will be the demise of the gop – otherwise we are in for some very toughs times for our collective Comity . BTW a good book to read to put this in historical context is :The Confederates in the Attic ..
    Senator Voinovich is correct the gop leadership has too many angry male white southerners – hell over in East Texas where I’m from they are still fighting the War of Northern Aggression …

    • bmaz says:

      You know, I think you are right – the GOP would self destruct of its own bloated weight and volatility – if the media, who generally do know better, but cannot pass up a manufactured horserace/fight, would simply quit reporting bizarre rantings as an equivalent logic and position. They really are propping up a rotting, festering corpse at this point to the detriment of the country. It is one thing to do that when there are competing ideas and ideologies; but quite another when there is nothing on the other side but retrogression and refusal to progress. A healthy two party system with competing ideas is a good thing; but creating a false equivalency and letting that thought pervade the ridiculously uninformed simpleton public may yet prove the end of our little republican democracy experiment.

  40. alinaustex says:

    [email protected] ,
    But the media is paid to report the horse race no matter how putrid . The interesting twist to this is that the moderate middle of our political spectrum is starting to get it – that the wing nuts are out of control.Down here in Texas for example Tom Delay is out of power -and is no longer generating the kind of fear and loathing that could cause all in the gop to follow the party line. When I listen to the ‘conservative’ columnist Ms Parker on the bobblehead talking shows she is starting to move to the center too.
    I wish I was saavy enough on the ‘internet tubes ” to link to the Austin American website – because it tells the tale – Kay Bailey Hutchinson’s campaign message has sublimimal messages embedded in its homepage accussing Gov Perry of being a closeted gay man among other gems ,

  41. alinaustex says:

    [email protected]

    Thank you its fatster , the linkages on the internet tubes never do what I want them to do anyway ….And is it just me are does Gov Perry look a lot like Rev Haggard (DOH !!!!)