State Department’s Crowley Condemns Treatment of Bradley Manning: “Counterproductive and Stupid”
Crowley (via wikipedia)
When PJ Crowley tweeted this the other day:
These are not #Twitter or #Wikileaks revolutions. They belong to the people, but technology can expand and accelerate the pace of change.
I was going to tweet back that he had to say that, given the necessity of maintaining the Administration party line on WikiLeaks. I’ve pointed out the difficult position our government’s crackdown on WikiLeaks has put Crowley in before, after all.
But sometimes the truth has a way of slipping out:
I just heard an extraordinary remark from State Department spokesman P.J. Crowley. He was speaking to a small audience at MIT on “the benefits of new media as it relates to foreign policy”, an event organised by the Center for Future Civic Media.
Around twenty of us were sitting around the table listening to his views on social media, the impact of the Twittersphere, the Arab uprisings, and so on, in a vast space-age conference room overlooking the Charles River and the Boston skyline. And then, inevitably, one young man said he wanted to address “the elephant in the room”. What did Crowley think, he asked, about Wikileaks? About the United States, in his words, “torturing a prisoner in a military brig”? Crowley didn’t stop to think. What’s being done to Bradley Manning by my colleagues at the Department of Defense “is ridiculous and counterproductive and stupid.”
Wow. Crowley has spent the last several months condemning the abuse of Middle Eastern dictators against their citizens. And now, in a room of twenty people, Crowley has condemned the abuse our own country commits.
I’ll be curious to see whether Crowley even disputed the assertion that Manning was being tortured.
Jeremy Scahill:
http://twitter.com/jeremyscahill
Greenwald’s got an update up, as well…
It seems Crowley just accepted the “T” word…
This will not end well for Crowley.
Yeah. He hesitated before he said “Sure”…his comments were “on the record”. He knew what he was doing. That’s brave.
Truth is not appreciated while we are so busy “#Winning the Future” -WTF (TM)- he couldn’t have *missed* the memo.
Depends on what you mean by “end well.” He may be forced to resign. If so, that will give this even more publicity. And maybe P.J. will sleep better at night.
But this may also be the tip of the iceberg. Many of Obama’s policies have to be creating friction in the administration. These aren’t stupid people. One can imagine Clinton, Obama’s chief rival during the elections, chafing at having to comment and lecture on human rights in Arab nations, only to have this thrown in her face.
Crowley will not end up being a national hero. I do not for one minute expect that Hilary will appreciate his candor. If she feels any dissonance, I do not believe she cares. If she uses it to challenge Obama, which I believe is a million miles away from anything she would say, she will end up being as much a liar as Obama is.
Citizen reader:
I think that you are right on but Obama and Hilary share the same weakness…they are both 21st century corporate fascist shills who can’t even see their own failure.
Thanks. 100% agreement with you.
Citizen drweevil:
I have been waitin for some sign of splinterin inside the civil service and civilian government and then I remember 8 years of packin the bureacracy and hollowin out the civil service…there is no democratic presence in our government at any level.
Walking this one back’s going to be damned tough. He might be made to try — or someone will try for him — but it’ll still be damned tough.
In fact, my guess is that rather than even attempt to walk it back, they’ll try to keep it hushed up, hope the earthquake/tsunami news sucks up all the media oxygen, and wait for the weekend news black hole to kick in so they never actually have to address it, much less honestly address it.
Wow. It’s always refreshing to hear unvarnished truth.
Related: Good reporting in The Nation about “Communications Monitoring Units” at prisons in Marion and Terre Haute.
http://bit.ly/eYMwKM
Gitmo in the Heartland
Greg Mitchell at The Nation:
http://www.thenation.com/blog/159182/wikileaks-news-views-blog-friday-day-104
Scahill might be right, of course, as history has shown so many times before about recants. But I think it’s counterproductive to be taking that view of what will transpire due to Crowley’s comments. Maybe I’m just being too hopeful, but notice that, as Marcy posted, she underestimated Crowley in thinking that “he had to say that”. Crowley really does believe what he is saying about Manning’s treatment. I’d like to believe that he won’t be “walking it back”.
I agree, Kitt. He meant it. I hope he can stick by his words. I think Jeremy Scahill hopes so, too.
The Obama administration is complicit in war crimes and torture… Unfortunately there has been no change from the Bush administration! I used to complain that we suspended the constitution under Bush… Unfortunately Obama has not re-instated it.
Crowley to toast in 5, 4, 3…
Who’s the Commander in Chief allowing this torture of a US citizen?
How undiplomatic of him. Good for him. I hope it doesn’t cost him his job.
Just like our extraordinary Kidnapping (rendition in news speak) and torture ( enhanced interrogation) are counter productive and Stupid
Guardian headline:
To my ears “mistreated” is even stronger than “ridiculous and counterproductive and stupid”.
Ding! Ding! Ding!
Try and walk it back now!
Future PJ Crowley: “It is with regret that I hereby tender my resignation from the department of state in order to spend ore time with my family….”
While that appears to be a typo, it’s just as likely to be the statement that Crowley and his entire family have been condemned to years of hard labor in the mines.
The West’s history of the wars of the 20th Century was simply a national exercise in projection.
That would be too bad. Crowley is a bright, classy guy.
Good for Crowley! Agree that it’s likely that the Japanese earthquake and tsunami will be utilized to *distract* the US populace from this truthful comment… in much the same way that the incessant rightwing media attention to known drug addict Charlie Sheen has been been used very successfully to deflect attention away from the union busting in WI and elsewhere… sigh
Ain’t the lamestream media could at bait n switch?
Citizen onitgoes:
I think that the Wikileaks-Bradly Manning fight is now out in the main arena and they won’t be able to bury it….I’m more worried about what Crowley’s statement means in terms of just how far the military has overwhelmed the civilian security aparatus…looks like the banksters and the CIA against the oilagarchs and the military and at this point Obama and the civilians are hostage in our own house.
Could be, Norske. I’ve had similar thoughts. No love lost on Obama, but I do *wonder* sometimes whether he actually *knew* what he was getting into and/or if he’s being forced to do what he’s doing. Not to cut him much slack, but… one does wonder. there’s been far too much going on behind the scenes for far too long. good luck to us all.
But how is anybody able to force him to do anything? He has the legal authority to order people in the military around. They don’t.
Granted, he has to work with the bureaucracy, so he can’t get his way on everything. But on important things, he should be able to.
If he doesn’t, just what is the point of the job?
Citizen lysias:
“He has the legal authority to order the people in the military around.”
Really citizen? Does the name John F. Kennedy ring a bell in your memory? By the time Obama figured out what was happenin’ and who really had power in this country he was helpless unless he wanned ta commit suicide in public.
Norske:
Part of the problem with both Obama and Hillary Clinton (as it was with Bill Clinton) is that their lack of a military background makes them prone to civilian guilt, which makes them easily-rolled by Pentagon brass.
Hell! I don’t have any stinkin’ “civilian guilt.”
No excuse.
Doing something for a principle knowing that you’re risking your life doing so is very different from committing suicide.
John Kennedy knew he was risking his life. He went ahead anyway.
And for that we honor him.
Yes, we honor JFK for the extreme risk he took, and we got to watch the results on our tvs.
Perhaps Obama is big coward. Many of us here have said (sort of kidding, sort of not) that a day or two after he was elected some spook showed Obama the Zapruder tape and said: got it? Do what your told or else.
It’s certainly within the realm of possibility….
What would I do under similar circumstances?? I’d like to believe I’d be brave enough to stand up to the PTB, but I can’t honestly say as I’ve never been tested in such an extreme fashion. Just saying…
You know a computer could be set up to play the film clip upon boot-up, and then delete the file so it could never be found again.
IOW no human involved, but the message delivered.
That’s assuming that the message even has to be delivered any more, it’s probably been part of the bedrock understanding of the job description since 1963.
We don’t count — have to find the original Bill Hicks recording and post a link to hear if he was sort of kidding.
Bill Hicks (December 16, 1961 – February 26, 1994)
Citizen lysias:
I would like to think that JFK understood the seriousness of the threat and the depth of the corruption of the system but I’m afraid he greatly underestimated the power of the fascist oilagarchy and it’s strength in the old Confederacy…by the time Obama figured it out he wouldn’t a been able ta do anything about it anyway except self-immolate and he has never had that kinda courage.
JFK’s putting himself in a position to be assassinated in the end made a point to the American people and before history — even though it took decades for most of us to figure out just what had happened in that assassination.
If Obama chose to immolate himself, that too would make a point — and, if he spoke out before he was taken down, in a way the American people would find it hard to blind itself to.
His immolating himself would not be pointless at all.
I “get” what you’re saying, but I do sometimes wonder (when I’m wearing my tinfoil hat) just *exactly* what’s going on. The nearly complete reversal by Obama has been something to behold – taken strictly from a more or less “objective” observational viewpoint.
In no way do I cut Obama any “slack,” but I do wonder sometimes WTF is going on behind the scenes.
As with the state of WI, I feel that David Koch is really running the show there. The recent legislation used to break the backs of the unions, imo, was dreamed up by Koch’s minions (not Walker) and delivered to Walker to push it through. Did Walker know & agree to have David Koch be his boss before & while he ran for Governor of WI???? I have no idea, but my “take” is that the “real boss” of WI is David Koch, not Scott Walker. Walker is just a hired mouthpiece.
In some ways, I see the same thing with Obama. Again: not that it lets either of them off the hook. But more and more, I really think our votes are utterly meaningless. Just saying….
Citizen onitgoes:
I’ve always felt that Obama was completely ignorant of what was really goin on inside the engine of power…that doesn’t let ‘im offa the hook in anyway but it does explain how he could have been so stupid as to piss away the mandate he had in the first 6 months of his term…and now he’s a pathetic empty suit. Gettin ta look more and more like 1932-33 Germany everyday.
Yep. Can’t disagree with you. Sends chills down my spine, but… it’s certainly at least appearing that way. Forewarned is forearmed.
Does someone have “the goods” on Obama in the way that J. E. Hoover had them on everyone in Washington a generation and a half ago? And in the way the mob had them on him and his sidekick Tolson?
Who knows? Certainly anything is possible, and at this stage, it would take a heck of a lot to surprise me.
The outcome will be telling. If there is an official repudiation of the comment it will show precisely how short the leashes are for these people in government.
If he is fired it will prove the above in spades.
If they don’t walk it back they might play it as one man’s personal opinion who is not conversant with the details. An obvious attempt to spin the truth into a lie… I mean official policy.
Obi needs to respond to this whole matter. He’s the CIC ain’t he?
“I’ll be curious to see whether Crowley even…” has a job in the morning…
AND THE KILLIN’ GOEZ ON AND ON AND…
Citizen emptywheel:
This is 8 point banner headline stuff, Sister Marcy, it is the first public statement by someone inside the non-military government that indicates a split between the State department and the military. This is indeed earthshakin’ if it is a reflection of senior civilian thinkin within the government. My God, we have a full blown war between factions of the oligarchy!!
Maybe it’s just my experience of the last 3 weeks in Madison and here on the ground with what’s left of the workin class or maybe it’s my experience in the military in the 60’s and in the street politics of the 60’s and 70’s but the split we saw in 1860 and then again in 1877 and then again in 1975 has opened again and it threatens to end in a real nightmare.
Get this statement from P.J. Crowley verified from the primary source and then plaster it all over the blogosphere…we gotta start takin part in the civil war that the plutocrats are wagin’ with our blood and treasure.
KEEP THE FAITH AND PASS THE AMMUNITION, THE WAR HAS COME HOME WHERE IT BELONGS!!
Is there a Maxillofacial Doctor in the House ?!?!? because I can’t get my jaw off the floor of the FDL wheelhouse –
those of you not currently using twitter – ol PJ is everyone’s favorite Pinata of Inanity™ – am blown away by his righteous candor
thanks EW
Crowley was a career Air Force officer who retired at the rank of colonel.
He knows the military.
didn’t know that, thanks
and I’m with PW and onitgoes, diplomatic fingers crossed Japan will suck up the oxygen
Just emailed thanks to Crowley at the State Dep’t website.
Which I hope works. There’s a tab for a question or comment. That’s what I used.
http://twitter.com/GregMitch
PJ Crowley blast on treatment of Manning goes mainstream — and another attendee corroborates bombshell quote. http://bit.ly/i2DBOz
10:40 The PJ Crowley slam at military over treatment of Manning (see below) goes mainstream with report in Politico and elsewhere. And another attendee now corroborates the version by the BBC journo / NIeman Fellow. No comment from State Dept or anywhere else official yet.
http://www.thenation.com/blog/159182/wikileaks-news-views-blog-friday-day-104
So, That Just Happened
chuckdude | March 10, 2011
http://chuckdude.com/?tag=p-j-crowley
Nice work! State is busy with Japan ~ perfect media storm so this slips out *unattended* by State or media!!
“Go.”
Impeccable job by the true journalists in the room.
“For the record, I was cross-trained in legal while in the U.S. Navy (1983-1987), and was an honor graduate of Naval Justice School in Newport, Rhode Island. When it came time for me to reenlist, I chose not to for many reasons, but largely because I thought “Military Justice” was an oxymoron. There is no such thing, and if you believe that people in the military are given a fair trial, you’re wrong.”
The fact that he is saying that the military cannot provide justice is also a nice little slap in the face to GW Obama’s latest executive order reinstating the military tribunals…
Well spoted!
When I was in Army basic training at Ft. Leonard Wood in the early ’60s the junior officer who was giving us our JAG briefing opened by saying, “The first thing you need to know is that the Uniform Code of Military Justice is neither uniform, nor just.”
That was “Chuckdude” saying that, not Crowley; so I doubt it is worth much.
Crowley’s saying this — and attending this conference on the benefits of new media as it relates to foreign policy in the first place — strongly suggests that the State Department is not on board with DOD’s and the administration’s policy on WikiLeaks.
Maybe Hillary Clinton’s speeches on the importance of Internet freedom — which seem so ridiculous on the surface — are meant to point out instead the ridiculousness of DOD’s and the administration’s policies on WikiLeaks, Assange, and Manning.
Since we’re sort of taking bets, I’ll bet that this guy, Geoff Morrell, will have the most teeth gnashing, bubble-headed, piss down my leg and tell me it’s raining comment of anyone else on the planet about this Crowley dust-up.
Question: He was speaking on the record, was he speaking for himself or for the State Department (did he make a statement at the beginning of his remarks about speaking for himself)?
Just wondering because they do both (speak on the record but for themselves) sometimes.
Really? A government official can “speak on the record for themselves”? Please tell that to Shirley Sherrod.
Yes. They are quite clear about it when they speak. And they do, in fact say that they are speaking for themselves, and if you ask if you can quote them on the record, they make that as a separate decision. It isn’t rocket science.
If you go over to “Glenzilla’s” and read his latest update, you’ll find out that that is exactly what Crowley says he did.
That’s why I asked.
I should be more clear. It’s the guys from State. They practically go into the men’s room and tell the urinal whether they are pissing on behalf of the government or their own personal relief.
Yeah, well, as I said, tell that to Shirley Sherrod. Because I don’t think she got a chance to be able speak on her own like you are describing. Maybe it is just a heinous double standard you are describing as opposed to some policy, because there are a long litany of people that have been resigned to spend more time with their families for a hell of a lot less than this. I don’t think there is any dichotomy in “speaking for yourself’ at all, I think it is totally and hypocritically ad hoc. And, by the way, this is not necessarily to disagree with what you are saying; I just find the petty hypocrisy of the Obama Administration frustrating and disgusting.
Now you’re conflating yet another issue. The issue of whether or not this guy gets thrown under the bus is a political issue, completely separate from the issue of whether he was speaking for the government or for himself, which, in turn, was a separate issue from whether or not he was speaking on the record. He can still get thrown under the bus, because even though it was his own opinion, not the government’s, it may impact whether or not he can continue to function in his job capacity, or some such language.
He really did take a stand. It would have been much nicer if he had been speaking for State, but even so, he was speaking out, and if his boss at least backs his right to take that stand, we can get more out of it.
It depends on whether and how harshly he gets the NPR-Vivian Schiller treatment, pour encourager les autres and all that. In all probability, if he does, it won’t happen for a month or two and it will appear to happen for reasons wholly unrelated to his honest comments. As to the latter, I can’t imagine it’s a practice any head of state would welcome in the spokesperson for his foreign office.
Well then there’s a race on. How many people can reporters get to in the administration and get to say, speaking for themselves most likely, that they deplore what’s going on, before the administration can either shut them all up, or is forced to stop. Ask the same question at every conference of every official. You win if you get them to talk, they win if they shut them up. Crowley can’t be the only one, I bet there’s more.
Oh, I’m sure there are hundreds of potential whistleblowers at agencies across the federal government who are burdened by knowledge of Cheney and now Obama administration legal and policy excesses that they feel ought to become public. That would suggest there are thousands of people like Crowley who simply let slip honest comments they can’t keep hushed up any longer. Hence, in my view, the outrageous reaction to Manning and other whistleblowers this administration has attacked with a vengeance.
Exactly. At a meeting about news coverage, held at high-profile MIT, where student exuberance is not unknown, where the State Dept. spokesperson is a featured speaker, everything would be on the record and for attribution.
VIP OT:
On Cspan now: Republicans on house floor to kill HUD Emergency Mortgage Relief Program. I think it is bill HR36.
Did any of the journos present when Crowley shot off his mouth bother to think of, let alone ask, the natural follow-up question: “Is this also the Secretary’s view or are you merely voicing your own opinion?”
HEY EMPTYWHEEL – possible major (related) tweetage on it’s way
David Dayen has a fresh cross-post already in progress: The Spirit of Madison – FDL’s Founding Membership
Torture: The Movie; Lynn Parramore; 3/11/11
[HuffPo]
http://www.huffingtonpost.com/lynn-parramore/torture-the-movie_b_834510.html
Here’s PJ Crowley’s Twitter Feed:
http://twitter.com/PJCrowley
Manning’s father was on the NewsHour last nite, which re-broadcast a Frontline interview: the guy rather threw his kid under the bus, seems like. When asked the old man said that Manning looked good, was holding up well, and wasn’t complaining about his treatment. Nice. The kid’s in a slammer, stripped, prevented from sleeping and the old man says he looks and acts fine.
We are not responsible for the parents we get, but dad admitted twisting Manning’s arm to go into the military to get some structure in his life. Yowza. Lots of issues going on here father and son.
You said REbroadcast. When did the interview take place and when was the last time his father saw him?
The guy is going to take some time to absorb the reality that he pushed his son into joining an organization that would end up torturing and imprisoning him for life.
In the father’s day, it was a common storyline that a wayward youth might join the military and end up much the better for the experience.
Right now, the father is hoping for the best, he’s probably in denial about the treatment his son is recieving, and Bradley is probably doing all he can to spare his father any pain.
I imagine the poor guy is about to go through some mighty big changes.
I am sure the father is wondering how his son could possibly come to betray the country he loved and put dozens, of not hundreds of lives at risk in the process. I am sure that Timothy McVeigh’s parents went through the same thing.
Thanks for the explanation.
As for joining the military, that’s what I did at 19 when flunking out of college: in exchange for a 4 year commitment joined Army for foreign language school for a year, was stationed overseas where first met a gal who would later become my wife (now of 40 years); once out. finished education (through law school) and later bought a little house with help from the GI Bill.
But, I wouldn’t recommend it nowadays — once in, they won’t let you out! Even after discharge, can call you back when in the reserves.
Apparently Bradley saw some nasty stuff going on, took it to the brass but was rejected, then allegedly blew the whistle hoping someone would finally listen. The kid’s a hero, looks like. Now he’s protecting his dad, too.
Sounds like you see what I see.
I feel for mannings father, because you’re right, things are very different now than when he was a sailor.
And then there’s the issue of all the chicken hawks tossing words like traitor around.
I’m with you, the guy is a hero.
Norske,
Your comments as spot on. Thank you!
Crowley’s comments are in the context of very high pay grades and military ranks. At his level, to call a colleague or peer’s policy or resolve “stupid”, is the modern equivalent of a glove-slap across the face.
If he is forced to resign, it will mean that the State Department (i.e., HRC) becomes complicit and also ‘stupid’. If he stays and won’t ‘recant’, the DoD will either defend its stupid honor or stop torturing Manning.
Everyone online here & now: great stuff!
Glenn Greenwald Tweets:
PJ Crowley at Center for Civic Media: only 75,000 followers fewer than Castro; Ethan Zuckerman; 3/11/11
http://www.ethanzuckerman.com/blog/2011/03/11/pj-crowley-at-center-for-civic-media-almost-25-as-popular-as-castro/
State Department spokesman calls treatment of Bradley Manning “ridiculous and counterproductive and stupid.”; Josh Rogin; 3/11/11
President Obama, at his press conference just now, responded to a question by ABC’s Jake Tapper regarding the treatment of Bradley Manning.
Basically, President Obama said that he had discussed this with the DOD and had been assured that Bradley Manning’s treatment was in accord with DOD policies. President Obama also stated that Bradley Manning’s treatment was partially in response to concerns about Bradley Manning’s wellbeing.
From David Dayen [via GG]
I’m not up to date on Manning’s detention, so tell me how he is being tortured, please….
Scroll up, way up, and look to your right on this page. Click on the reportage about Manning’s treatment.
Instead of a finder’s fee (which I’m entitled to), become a Founding Member of FDL. Click on that image/link in the same area on this page.
OK, placed on watch because he was seen as suicidal, and asked to strip down to his briefs. Told to use “Aye” instead of “Yes”. And this is coming from him or is it backed up by other non-suicidal detainees?
The bastards
Be afraid: evidently the NSA has been deleting your snark tags before your comments post here.
Looks like Crowley had one of those moments of ultimate honesty caused when you say, “Oh fuck it, I’m sick of this job anyway.”…
BLURT.
“…I’m going trout fishing.”
A-yup.
{ LMAO } S. O. forkin’ Bs.
Que?
New post up on this topic.
If Mr. Crowley had been an employee of NPR, he’d already be out the door, with its imprint on his backside for making that honest comment. I’m sure Bill Daley is planning something similar, whether or not Hillary likes it. But good for him in making that comment; so many others have been howlers.