On Responsible Sourcing for DNC Hack Stories

For some reason Lawfare thinks it is interesting that the two Democratic members of the Gang of Four — who have apparently not figured out there’s a difference between the hack (allegedly done by Russia) and the dissemination (done by Wikileaks, which has different motivations) are calling for information on the DNC hack to be released.

The recent hack into the servers of the Democratic National Committee (DNC) and the subsequent release via WikiLeaks of a cache of 20,000 internal e-mails, demonstrated yet again the vulnerability of our institutions to cyber intrusion and exploitation.  In its timing, content, and manner of release, the email dissemination was clearly intended to undermine the Democratic Party and the presidential campaign of Secretary Hillary Clinton, and disrupt the Democratic Party’s convention in Philadelphia.

[snip]

Specifically, we ask that the Administration consider declassifying and releasing, subject to redactions to protect sources and methods, any Intelligence Community assessments regarding the incident, including any that might illuminate potential Russian motivations for what would be an unprecedented interference in a U.S. Presidential race, and why President Putin could potentially feel compelled to authorize such an operation, given the high likelihood of eventual attribution.

For some equally bizarre reason, WaPo thinks Devin Nunes’ claim — in the same breath as he claims Donald Trump’s repeated calls on Russia to release Hillary’s email were sarcastic — that there is “no evidence, absolutely no evidence” that Russia hacked the DNC to influence the election is credible.

Rep. Devin Nunes (R-Calif.), the chairman of the House Intelligence Committee, told The Washington Post in an interview Wednesday that speculation about Russian attempts to sway the presidential election is unfounded.

“There is no evidence, absolutely no evidence, that the Russians are trying to influence the U.S. election,” Nunes said, repeatedly swatting away the suggestion made by some Democrats that the Russians may be using their intelligence and hacking capabilities to boost Donald Trump’s chances.

“There is evidence that the Russians are actively trying to hack into the United States — but it’s not only the Russians doing that. The Russians and the Chinese have been all over our networks for many years.”

These are two obvious (because they’re on the record) examples of partisans using their access to classified information to try to boost or refute a narrative that the Hillary Clinton campaign has explicitly adopted: focusing on the alleged Russian source of the hack rather on the content of the things the hack shows.

Kudos to Richard Burr, who is facing a surprisingly tough reelection campaign, for being the one Gang of Four member not to get involved in the partisan bullshit on this.

There are plenty of people with no known interest in either seeing a Trump or a Clinton presidency that have some measure of expertise on this issue (this is the rare moment, for example, when I’m welcoming the fact that FBI agents are sieves for inappropriate leaks). So no outlet should be posting something that obviously primarily serves the narrative one or the other candidate wants to adopt on the DNC hack without a giant sign saying “look at what partisans have been instructed to say by the campaign.” That’s all the more true for positions, like the Gang of Four, that we’d prefer to be as little politicized as possible. Please don’t encourage those people to use their positions to serve a partisan narrative, I beg of you!

For the same reason I’m peeved that Harry Reid suggested the Intelligence Community give Trump fake intelligence briefings. Haven’t we learned our lesson about politicizing intelligence?

More generally, I think journalists should be especially careful at this point to make it clear whether their anonymous sources have a partisan dog in this fight, because zero of those people should be considered to be unbiased when they make claims about the DNC hack.

A very special case of that comes in stories like this, where Neocon ideologue Eliot Cohen, identified as Bush appointee, is quoted attacking Trump for suggesting Russia should leak anymore emails.

But now Republican-aligned foreign policy experts are also weighing in along similar lines.

“It’s appalling,” Dr. Eliot A. Cohen, who was counselor of the State Department during the second term of George W. Bush’s presidency, said to me today. “Calling on a foreign government to go after your opponent in an American election?”

Cohen recently organized an open letter from a range of GOP national security leaders that denounced Trump in harsh terms, arguing that Trump’s “own statements” indicate that “he would use the authority of his office to act in ways that make America less safe, and which would diminish our standing in the world.” The letter said: “As committed and loyal Republicans, we are unable to support a Party ticket with Mr. Trump at its head. We commit ourselves to working energetically to prevent the election of someone so utterly unfitted to the office.”

But this latest from Trump, by pushing the envelope once again, raises the question of whether other prominent Republicans are ever going to join in.

For instance, to my knowledge, top national security advisers to George W. Bush, such as Stephen Hadley and Condoleezza Rice (who was also secretary of state), have yet to comment on anything we’ve heard thus far from Trump. Also, there could theoretically come a point where figures like former Defense Secretary Donald Rumsfeld and possibly even Dubya and George H.W. Bush feel compelled to weigh in.

Meanwhile, senior Republican elected officials who have backed Trump continue to refrain from taking on his comments forcefully or directly. Some Republicans actually defended Trump’s comments today. Paul Ryan’s spokesman issued a statement saying this: “Russia is a global menace led by a devious thug. Putin should stay out of this election.”

I feel differently about Trump’s asinine comment than I do about attribution of the attack. I’m all in favor of Hillary’s campaign attacking Trump for it, and frankly Cohen is a far more credible person to do so than Jake Sullivan and Leon Panetta, who also launched such attacks yesterday, because as far as I know Cohen has not mishandled classified information like the other two have.

But I would prefer if, rather than IDing Cohen as one of the Republicans who signed a letter opposing Trump, Greg Sargent had IDed him as someone who has also spoken affirmatively for Hillary.

On foreign policy, Hillary Clinton is far better: She believes in the old consensus and will take tough lines on China and, increasingly, Russia. She does not hesitate to make the case for human rights as a key part of our foreign policy. True, under pressure from her own left wing, she has backtracked on the Trans-Pacific Partnership, a set of trade deals that supports American interests by creating a counterbalance to China and American values by protecting workers’ rights. But she might edge back toward supporting it, once in.

Admittedly, this was at a time when Cohen and others still hoped some Mike Bloomberg like savior would offer them a third choice; that was before Bloomberg gave a very prominent speech endorsing Hillary last night.

Here’s the thing. The Neocons (led by Robert Kagan, who’s wife got named as a target of Russian aggression in the Feinstein-Schiff letter) are functioning as surrogates for Hillary just like top Democrats are. They are, just like Democrats are, now scrambling to turn their endorsements into both policy and personnel wins. Therefore we should no more trust the independence of a pro-Hillary Neocon — even if he did work for George Bush — than we would trust the many Democrats who have used their power to help Hillary win this election. Progressives should be very wary about the promises Hillary has made to get the growing number of Neocons (and people like Bloomberg) to so aggressively endorse her. Because those endorsements will come with payback, just like union or superdelegate endorsements do.

In any case, it’s hard enough to tease out attribution for two separate hacks and the subsequent publication of the hacked data by Wikileaks. Relying on obviously self-interested people as sources only further obscures the process.

Update: The Grammar Police actually nagged me to fix “whose/who’s” error in the Kagan sentence. Fun!

Marcy has been blogging full time since 2007. She’s known for her live-blogging of the Scooter Libby trial, her discovery of the number of times Khalid Sheikh Mohammed was waterboarded, and generally for her weedy analysis of document dumps.

Marcy Wheeler is an independent journalist writing about national security and civil liberties. She writes as emptywheel at her eponymous blog, publishes at outlets including the Guardian, Salon, and the Progressive, and appears frequently on television and radio. She is the author of Anatomy of Deceit, a primer on the CIA leak investigation, and liveblogged the Scooter Libby trial.

Marcy has a PhD from the University of Michigan, where she researched the “feuilleton,” a short conversational newspaper form that has proven important in times of heightened censorship. Before and after her time in academics, Marcy provided documentation consulting for corporations in the auto, tech, and energy industries. She lives with her spouse and dog in Grand Rapids, MI.

47 replies
  1. John Casper says:

    “Please don’t encourage those people to use their positions to serve a partisan narrative, I beg of you!”

    Bullseye, as per usual.

  2. lefty665 says:

    EW, Thanks for advocating rationality and sensibility in an increasingly bizarre campaign season.
    .
    Between “Lock her up” and “Treason” it seems George Lakoff’s framing is getting literal. It’s not even August yet, how much worse will it get?

  3. bevin says:

    Whether this information was gathered by this means or that is of small interest in comparison with what it reveals.
    Nobody is challenging the authenticity of correspondence which makes it crystal clear that the democratic Primaries were rigged from the beginning. And that nobody can have confidence in the “results” which appear to conform with the wishes of those who controlled and administered the elections.
    This is shocking. Or it ought to be.
    What the political partisans-job seekers all-have to say about the matter is of little importance. As always they say what, in their calculations, it is in their interests to say.
    The fact is that a series of massive, and expensive frauds have been perpetrated by identified individuals against the people. And so far the only ‘suffering’ involved is the minor inconvenience suffered by the ring leader -Debbie Wasserman Schultz- in beingmoved from head of the DNC to head of the Clinton campaign a little earlier than anticipated.

    But perhaps I am wrong?
    And it is perfectly acceptable to turn public elections, vote counts and tabulations into a cynical farce which, among other things, makes the millions of Americans who contributed small cash amounts to the Sanders campaign into the victims of a game played by the Clintons and their friends.
    A game fully endorsed by the President and most of his Cabinet.
    The question is what is in store for Trump? Are his votes to be miscounted in November? Will polling booths in his districts be closed down? Will country folk in the South get the Brooklyn treatment?
    And is it acceptable to ‘count him out’ because he is a demagogue who questions the need for eternal wars?

    • rugger9 says:

      First, I do not think anything was hacked for HRC, such as when the GOP hacked a SC US Senate Democratic primary election to push a guy who wasn’t even trying to run ahead of a serious threat to Graham. or the GOP hacks and ballot stuffing in OH or FL or WI to save various GOP celebrities.
      *
      On to your questions:
      The question is what is in store for Trump? This depends on how the Russian angle plays out. Donald definitely crossed the line to treason with his presser even if Toadie Todd tried to compare it to the espionage that always is present. Even though we know it’s there we also don’t invite them to do it, but that’s how stupid Drumpf is.
      *
      Are his votes to be miscounted in November? Of course, but not in the way you insinutate, his votes will be padded. After all, the Donald is the GOP nominee, and IOKIYAR.
      *
      Will polling booths in his districts be closed down? Nope, after all, the Donald is the GOP nominee, and IOKIYAR. The ones closed down we already saw in the primaries in various key states, as well as the voter ID limits. The GOP isn’t going after old angry white guys but the “others du jour”.
      *
      Will country folk in the South get the Brooklyn treatment? Of course, but only certain colors will be affected, but not the old angry white guys. After all, there are more than a few down South well practiced in Jim Crow-era suppression.
      *
      And is it acceptable to ‘count him out’ because he is a demagogue who questions the need for eternal wars? The Donald hasn’t questioned any wars at all (everything I have seen covered both options, for/against at one time or another), what he is actually saying loud and clear is that anything and everything is for sale at the right price. Don’t think for a minute he wouldn’t sell you out as well, because he gets what he wants and dodges what he owes.
      *
      Anyone that votes for Trump directly or indirectly (by voting for Stein) gets what they deserve. Given a choice between war and dishonor, they choose dishonor but will get their war when Drumpf stiffs the PRC or Putin on something and they send the troops over the border.
      *
      BTW, I see there are joint drills between the PRC and Russia announced, which if successful will possibly undo one of Nixon’s (!?!?! Yep) great achievements in driving the wedge between the Soviets and Mao when he “opened China”. This was stunning if for no other reason than that Nixon before that was one of the most rabid anti-communists in politics. The effect was that it would enable us to meet only one enemy at a time (the USSR).

      • bevin says:

        “..BTW, I see there are joint drills between the PRC and Russia announced, which if successful will possibly undo one of Nixon’s (!?!?! Yep) great achievements in driving the wedge between the Soviets and Mao when he “opened China”. ”

        You are coming close to the clinching reason why “Russia” was not behind these leaks: Clinton’s commitment to more years of warmongering and neo-con provocations is exactly what will drive not just China and Russia but Iran and probably Turkey too into a firm military and economic bloc which will thwart the USA’s attempts to impose its hegemony on the globe.
        In other words while the people of the world do not want more war and the risk of nuclear annihilation, the ruling elites of every country not eager to be a satellite of the US are looking forward to Clinton and more neo-con crudeness instead of diplomacy, because it will serve their purposes and destroy what is left of generations of patient US diplomacy aimed at isolating opponents.
        Don’t be misled: Trump may look like an Ugly American but Hillary, as we saw in Libya and Syria, has the act down pat.
        (Incidentally you might want to re-examine this business of making fun of people with on Anglo ancestors who changed their names. It is the sort of thing Trump might do, to the horror of liberals.)

        • wayoutwest says:

          I see you have discarded the rest of the BRICS that might have been able to resist the Hegemons economic dominance but Iran and Turkey are poor replacements for real economic powers. Even Russia with its Mexico sized economy, with less industrial output, will never be much more than a energy commodity supplier. China has already backed out of some of those large projects and their investment banks, BRIC and others don’t seem to be very active.

          China is the only real economic power in this group but their growth is lagging because of the worldwide and never ending Great Recession and they economic power is mostly dependent on western consumption and investment. They have great economic plans but the seem to be concentrating on protecting their supply lines and expanding their influence in their region with the carrot and the stick.

          I read a report on the first shipments to Iran from China on their spur of the New Silk Road and in exchange for the new oil orders from China Iran was required in the agreement to open their markets to the trainloads of cheap Chinese consumer junk which will drive local producers out of business as it has done in Africa. This is the Chinese version of shared prosperity.

          • bevin says:

            Certainly the BRICS phenomenon was related to US policies. And similar reactions will occur again, if provoked.
            As to “… the Chinese version of shared prosperity…”
            I hold no brief for China’s government. It is certainly pursuing trade policies which differ little from those of the US. And they are not much more likely to lead to prosperity for working people anywhere.

            I am not cheering China or Russia, though I greatly prefer multi polarity to hegemonic Empire, I am simply pointing out that countries are probably hoping that Hillary wins and the US continues to alienate and antagonise public opinion around the world.
            Or do you feel that huffing and puffing, neo-con style, is productive? If you do, you probably regard the last fifteen years as years of increasing US influence in the world, rather than decline.
            Fair enough. I disagree though.

            • wayoutwest says:

              I was only questioning the notion that some people seem to entertain that the multipolar world order would offer any real change in capitalist behavior because they are all invested in the same model.

            • rugger9 says:

              Before you extol the PRCs trade policies too much, perhaps you should explain why the IP espionage is OK, and why many of the nations engaged with the PRC in trade deals are complaining about the one-sided nature of the management of said deals. Stuff like cheating, imported workers, poor work quality, environmental damage and dictatorial style are factored into this perception.
              *
              This is what the “middle kingdom” philosophy is all about, that everyone is subject to the emperor even if that person is technically a communist. WOW also commented on this in a pretty good post.
              *
              It seems my point about anything being for sale in Trump-world was spot on. He just offered Crimea to Putin if he wins, regardless of what the rest of Europe thinks.

              • jerryy says:

                “Jerryy – Stein has NO solutions, either except to sing Kumbaya, if that. Some noted on your list:”
                .
                Be careful, this is not yet a three way coin toss between the heirs-apparent to see who has to show up for the coronation. I am not promoting anyone, yet, and probably will not, I see no reason to.
                .
                What we have been doing is not working. Trying to dodge will not work as policy.
                .
                .
                This may help you some with your fact gathering:
                .
                https://www.mccaskill.senate.gov/about-claire
                .
                http://www.blunt.senate.gov/public/index.cfm/about-the-senator
                .
                regarding the two parties running the show in that area. Do not be distracted by the shiny objects, the problems are systemic and widespread. And not limited to just Ferguson, Flint, Forever, War, though as an aside you do realize the US EPA had their hand in the Flint water crises, ask Rayne, she keeps up on that one.
                .
                https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/List_of_United_States_presidential_vetoes
                .
                Unless I am really mistaken, President Obama lists his party affiliation as being a member of the Democratic party.

                • rugger9 says:

                  The US EPA was called to the carpet in a bout of both-siderism, but it was Governor Snyder (GOP) and MDEQ that decided what data the EPA would be allowed to see. Nice try…
                  *
                  Bevin, the only threats to foreigners come from the GOP and the occasional BoBuster (and the police…). I get that you’re apparently an America-Firster, but realize that a cut and run philosophy doesn’t solve anything either. It didn’t work for Reagan in Beirut in solving the conflict there. In contrast, Bill Clinton’s engagement in Kosovo (widely derided by the GOP as a “tail wagging the dog” exercise to distract attention) brought Milosevic and Ratkovic to justice, even if it was too late to save Srebenica. Now if you want to take Bill Clinton to task for the Rwanda response, I’m with you on that.
                  *
                  If you want to cite examples of meddling NOT due to the CIA or Oliver North’s shop and its successors, I’m with that too. Everyone here is quite clear that the CIA and the rest of the spooks are underhanded and chock full of imperialists. Address the problem where it is.

                  • jerryy says:

                    Strange that you only discuss the small side issue…. But no matter, after the fact lots of folks got called on the carpet, hough that area has again left without any help by any of the two parties. Of course they got no help DURIng the crises either. .
                    Now, before you say again that the Dmocratic party cannot be held for that:

                    Article II, Section 3, clause 2. The constitution says that the president can convene congress under extraordinary circumstances for as long as he sees fit.

                    • rugger9 says:

                      And, who would be IN that Congress? This isn’t Parliament where a snap election can flip the chamber, this is Congress with set terms, and that is one of the grave issues regarding TPP, because there is a possibility that a lame-duck Congress convened between November 8th and January will be populated by critters with a low GAS factor that will take the money and run, leaving the bills for America to pay. Before you quote the US Constitution, please actually comprehend what it means.
                      *
                      Why do you continue to apologize for the people who made the ACTUAL DECISIONS in Michigan, as opposed to those who were blamed for it? This was and is Rick Snyder’s policy and actions run through his minions, all the way. When will you hold Rick accountable?

                    • jerryy says:

                      Where have I apologized for the actions of the leadership in Michigan? Do point it out. Please do.
                      .
                      Regardless of whom populates Congress, the means to hold them to doing their job is there for the President to use. if there is some buck passing going on, it is on your part.
                      .
                      Then after yipping and yapping about how the current Democratic president is oh-so whoa-fully unable to work with Congress you then ask “Seriously, what do you suppose Jill Stein would be able to do with a hostile Congress?”
                      .
                      That is a serious blinders on approach to thinking. How about “Seriously, what do you suppose Hilary Clinton would be able to do with a hostile Congress?” As in one that has been gunning for her from since before she was the First Lady. Serious dis-connection in your thought process there. And why are you afraid of Jill Stein? You keep bringing her up for some reason.
                      .
                      Cherry-picking Senator McCaskill? Pull out a map of the United States and take a good look at where Ferguson is.
                      .
                      Up to this point this has been friendly discussion, and I hope it will continue to be so, but do not lecture me on understanding what the US Constitution means.

                    • Rugger9 says:

                      Friendly in your mind, perhaps, but loaded with innuendo and distractions. You used McCaskill and Blunt as examples of Congress, not Missouri, and that is what warranted the reply. Nice of you to move the goalposts. Why not also talk about all of the other states (including CA) with protests over dubious police shootings? Perhaps you should explain why MO was so important that the rest of America is ignored by your analysis. Oh, yeah “both sides do it”.
                      *
                      You are so quick to attack the US EPA while giving a free pass to Rick Snyder’s administration, which is actually worse than an apology, because of the willful diversion of accountability. If you don’t denounce that aspect that is the TRUE root cause of Flint, or Pawlenty’s diversion of highway repair funds that led to I-35 dropping into the Mississippi River in MN, or Perry’s policy of zero regulation that killed all of those citizens of West, TX.
                      *
                      You yourself are still devoid of explaining exactly how the President can “make Congress do their job”, even after I have asked you to do so. Nice dodging. Since the GOP controls the power of the purse, Obama cannot unilaterally make laws or fund programs (See Article I). His attempts to work with Congress have been rebuffed with insults, and his attempts to work within his administrative options using executive orders routinely done by Shrub, the GOP sued. So, instead of demanding that I provide the answers, YOU provide the answers about what Obama and HRC MUST DO to bring the Teabagger Congress to heel. You’re the one that said the President has the power so explain it for us. Since you claim to be so well versed in the Constitution, please provide the answers. Examples, too.
                      *
                      I don’t fear Jill Stein, per se, it is the diversion of votes away from beating Trump that is the issue, as I explained many times before, with concrete examples where disastrous outcomes occurred. Now since Trump has veered into treasonous territory by selling out our treaty obligations (which have the force of Constitutional law per Article VI) and inviting espionage against the USA, perhaps it will become unimportant, but knowing how sleazy the GOP is and how willing the GOP is to break laws and tilt the voting process and reprogram voting machines (all documented in prior elections) do not be complacent and stay home.

                    • wayoutwest says:

                      I see the liberal butt-hurt over the failure to remove Snyder from office still stings but the story of errors and crimes that was projected didn’t hold water any better than the Flint water system. None of the decisions about the switch from Detroit water before the crisis were determined to be anything but appropriate responses to the inflated prices charged by Detroit and even the temporary use of Flint River water would not have caused any major problems if it was properly treated for corrosion.

                      The decision for the temporary switch to Flint River water was made by EM Darnell Earley a Democrat who overruled the city council and it was made because Detroit had already given a shutoff notice. Yes there was a Hail Mary low price offer just before the switch but would you trust the crooks from Detroit who had been extorting Flint with their monopoly power to actually honor that deal even if they could which is doubtful.

                      The decisions that were made that caused the lead to leach from pipes was made by three administrators who have been charged with crimes, not for the minor offense of failure to perform their duties correctly but for trying to cover up their actions. When they go to trial we may learn why they and only they made these stupid decisions. Governors are politically responsible for their underling’s mistakes and stupidity but not legally and there was no reason for Snyder to be involved in low level technical decisions.

                    • John Casper says:

                      You wrote, “I see the liberal butt-hurt,…”
                      .
                      34. Is that different than conservative, “butt hurt?”
                      .
                      You wrote, “over the failure to remove Snyder from office still stings but the story of errors and crimes that was projected didn’t hold water any better than the Flint water system.”
                      .
                      34.1 Do you have a link to, “the story of errors and crimes?”
                      .
                      I didn’t know the Flint pipes leaked water. I thought the problem was that the lead from the pipes leeched into the water in the pipes?
                      .
                      34.2 Do you have a link to your claim that the Flint pipes couldn’t, “hold,” water?
                      .
                      You wrote, “None of the decisions about the switch from Detroit water before the crisis were determined to be anything but appropriate responses to the inflated prices charged by Detroit and even the temporary use of Flint River water would not have caused any major problems if it was properly treated for corrosion.”
                      .
                      34.3 Since the, “switch,” caused the, “crisis,” how could, “…decisions about the switch…,” have been after, the “switch?”
                      .
                      34.4 Do you have a link to a summary of all the, “decisions about the switch.”
                      .
                      34.5 Do you have a link to your claim about the, “inflated prices charged by Detroit?”
                      .
                      34.6 What would have been the minor problems caused by the use of the Flint river water if, “properly treated?”
                      .
                      34.7 How could, “decisions about the switch,” have been, “anything but appropriate,” if it wasn’t, “properly treated for corrosion?”
                      .
                      You wrote, “the decision for the temporary switch to Flint River water was made by EM Darnell Earley a Democrat who overruled the city council and it was made because Detroit had already given a shutoff notice.”
                      .
                      34.8 What’s an, “EM?”
                      .
                      34.9 From where did the, “EM,” get the authority to overrule the city council?
                      .
                      34.10 If the, “EM,” can, “overrule the city council,” why does Flint need a city council?
                      .
                      You wrote, “Yes there was a Hail Mary low price offer just before the switch….”
                      .
                      34.11 So what you wrote above, “…the inflated prices charged by Detroit…,” was inaccurate or incomplete, or both?
                      .
                      You wrote, “…but would you trust the crooks from Detroit. …”
                      .
                      34.12 Could you name these, “crooks?”
                      .
                      You wrote, “who had been extorting Flint with their monopoly power to actually honor that deal even if they could which is doubtful.”
                      .
                      34.13 So knowing now about the lethal consequences, you still support the EM’s decision?
                      .
                      You wrote, “the decisions that were made that caused the lead to leach from pipes was made by three administrators…”
                      .
                      34.14 Do you have a link to support your claim?
                      .
                      You wrote, “…who have been charged with crimes, not for the minor offense of failure to perform their duties correctly…”
                      .
                      34.15 On what basis do you characterize their, “…failure to perform their duties correctly…,” as, “minor?”
                      .
                      You wrote, “When they go to trial we may learn why they and only they made these stupid decisions.
                      .
                      34.16 On what basis are you concluding that, “…they and only they made these stupid decisions?”
                      .
                      34.17 Are you now contradicting what you wrote earlier, “None of the decisions about the switch from Detroit water before the crisis were determined to be anything but appropriate responses…?
                      .
                      You wrote, “Governors are politically responsible for their underling’s mistakes and stupidity but not legally and there was no reason for Snyder to be involved in low level technical decisions.”
                      .
                      34.18 Do you have a citation from Michigan or federal law to support your claim?
                      .
                      34.19 If the Governor appoints someone, who is obviously unqualified, doesn’t he have some legal culpability?
                      .
                      34.20 Killing and injuring Michigan citizens was the result of, “low level technical decisions?”
                      .
                      34.21 Are you criticizing Gov. Snyder’s decision to get involved?

                    • jerryy says:

                      .
                      jerryy on July 28, 2016 at 1:26 pm In reply to rugger9

                      For the last 16 years, most of the current two party crew you see in Hollywood East (Washington D.C.) has been running the show. What have we, as a country, got to show for it?
                      .
                      Ferguson, Flint, Forever War.

                      .
                      (DHS grants are used to buy armored personnel carriers and military grade weapons and spying gear. In the USA. In the USA.)
                      .
                      Senator McCaskill is on the DHS senate oversight committee. Would you really have us believe the state and national efforts are not coordinated?
                      .
                      I did not limit, in that capsule summary and subsequent postings, my assessment to just those areas. But Ferguson, Flint, Forever War sums it up well.
                      .
                      jerryy on July 28, 2016 at 1:26 pm In reply to rugger9
                      Other than a few notable exceptions, infrastructure is crumbling, cities and states are strained to their limits to provide basic services and jobs to their residents while the leadership pillages and loots their treasuries to give those already well-off even more.
                      .
                      jerryy on July 28, 2016 at 4:16 pm In reply to rugger9

                      Do not be distracted by the shiny objects, the problems are systemic and widespread. And not limited to just Ferguson, Flint, Forever, War, though…
                      .
                      ========
                      .
                      jerryy on July 28, 2016 at 4:16 pm In reply to rugger9

                      though as an aside you do realize the US EPA had their hand in the Flint water crises, ask Rayne, she keeps up on that one.
                      .
                      If that is an attack, then stay away from any kind of media; your delicate system will not stand the strain.
                      .
                      =============
                      Pay real close attention on this:
                      .
                      I did list two ways for the president to deal with congress:
                      .
                      jerryy on July 28, 2016 at 4:16 pm In reply to rugger9

                      https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/List_of_United_States_presidential_vetoes
                      .
                      jerryy on July 28, 2016 at 5:39 pm In reply to rugger9
                      .
                      Article II, Section 3, clause 2. The constitution says that the president can convene congress under extraordinary circumstances for as long as he sees fit.
                      .
                      To that I will add: use the bully pulpit.
                      .
                      Veto the crap they send you, call them into session and after the usual caterwauling ends, they will get to passing workable legislation. This is time tested and very effective, Once they realize they have been, in essence, sent to their room and told not to come out until they play nice and they realize they will not be having lots of time with their families, friends, hobbies and campaign donors, stuff happens. Ask any governor. Are you really under the impression that though our history, presidents and congresses always got along? Or that presidents could not get work done? How many choruses of that Kumbaya song you like did someone make you listen to?
                      =====
                      .
                      “I don’t fear Jill Stein, per se, it is the diversion of votes away from beating Trump that is the issue…”
                      .
                      If ‘your’ party cannot find worthy people that are able to convince voters to support them, especially in a cakewalk setting, ‘you’ really have nothing to offer other than ‘your’ desire to wield power.

                    • rugger9 says:

                      As for the rest of that post (4:16 PM) All you did was kvetch about how “nothing is working” without explaining that it is due to GOP obstruction and insanity such as including poison pills specifically designed to provoke vetos. As such, you appear to be a perfect corporate media sucker that looks at the headline but is incurious as to why something happened. We already had someone like that in the WH who I refer to as “Shrub”.
                      *
                      Look at the underlying causes, the Why is as important as the What, especially since the corporate media refuses to report the actual facts, just the positions of both sides no matter how illogical or mendacious it is.
                      *
                      Seriously, what do you suppose Jill Stein would be able to do with a hostile Congress?
                      *
                      Cherry-picking McCaskill is typical of the level of argument to claim both-siderism, however, NO ONE thinks she’s a liberal, how about Franken instead? How about Booker (minus the wretched sellout to Michelle Lee)? Or, Ellison? I even have issues with Obama on some of his policies as I have noted here.
                      *
                      Try again.

              • bevin says:

                I’m hardly ‘extolling” China’s trade policies. I say that they are bad as the USA’s.
                As to your insights into Middle Kingdom philosophies, I can recall when China was criticised in exactly the same way for being materialist and marxist.
                Youy don’t like China’s government. Neither do I. I don’t like the US government either and there is no contest as to which one of them is more in need of vigilance and chastening: the USA has been bullying other peoples, interfering in their government, spying on their industries and misbehaving for decades now. You seem to be the only person who hasn’t noticed, which may be a good reason for spending less time agonising over foreign threats and a bit more over threats to foreigners.

                • SpaceLifeForm says:

                  You need to back off and see the big picture.
                  It is just not the US attacking other nations.
                  The darkside is attacking the US too.
                  And that is the main problem.
                  Once a pure fascist is in control,
                  the nuclear arsenal is expendable.
                  They want to rule the world.
                  Insanity knows no bounds.
                  Pogo was correct.
                  We have met the enemy and he is us.

              • bevin says:

                By the way Crimea was Russian from the C18th until Kruschev gave it to the Ukrainian SSR in 1953.
                This led to the US campaigning against the USSR on the grounds that the Crimeans had become ‘captive’ to the Ukraine.
                Maybe Russia should look into the provenance of California again?

                • rugger9 says:

                  Correct about Kruschev giving Crimea to the USSR, but before that it was a Greek, a Byzantine and may have been a Turkish province, which makes it a question about how far back does one go for ownership?
                  *
                  With respect to CA, Russia actually did have a claim here in support of hunting sea otters to extinction (damn near), it’s why the Spanish started the mission building in the 18th century to get a footprint in the area to counteract Fort Ross., the British also could claim it from Drake’s voyage. So, while the legitimate Mexican government made a TREATY (Guadalupe Hidalgo) ceding the area to the USA (yep, totally unfair, but that’s what “spear won” and war is all about, and let’s remember that the Mexicans went after the Texans first while you’re busy keeping score) and keeping some sort of diplomatic veneer to the proceedings (the Gadsden Purchase in 1854 was about guilt as much as a railroad right of way), that is TOTALLY THE SAME as the Crimean putsch engineered by Putin. Where was the plebiscite that authorized the change BEFORE Putin moved in? Why did it have to happen at all? Russia already controlled its bases in Crimea.

        • rugger9 says:

          Drumpf is his ancestor’s name when he arrived here. As a mutt myself (Scottish, English, Dutch (dating to 1636), German, and a very little bit of Cree) I certainly don’t give a rat’s patootie about bloodlines even if my Dutch ancestor was a patroon. But you do make an interesting point, because many immigrants did Anglicize their names to avoid rampant immigrant bashing in the Gilded Age (“No Irish Need Apply”, for example). It would be more valid if the Donald didn’t engage in name calling of SPW as “Pocahontas”. Just sayin’.
          *
          Jerryy – Stein has NO solutions, either except to sing Kumbaya, if that. Some noted on your list:
          *
          Ferguson is a direct result of (mostly Republican) cities and towns trying to cover tax breaks for the 1% with sin taxes on everyone else, combined with fearmongering training by RW nutjobs on the radio and in seminars that the cops take to treat their citizens as enemies in a pretend military attitude. As a former USN officer, I understand as these yahoos do not that with authority comes responsibility and self-restraint. Sure I could routinely order my enlisted to drop and give me 50 on a whim to remind them whose boss, but it’s better to hold that authority in reserve for when you really do need it. Back at nuke school, there was an enlisted man accepted into Canoe U (USNA) who spent the morning jacking up his former classmates (the 4th class MIDN is in the rank structure) until I caught him at lunch time and returned the favor. Those are the officers who will be taught the hard way just how resourceful sailors are when they want to make a point. We also policed our own, sometimes with a delay (e.g. Tailhook) but we do not tolerate those who violate their oath to the US Constitution, or those who screw up including those in command (see: Forrestal and Evans), at least until Shrub destroyed that policy in Abu Ghraib (because it went to the very top). Those individuals are typically removed or sidelined to Masirah where there is a girl behind every tree. The current PDs, mostly because of the blue line enforced by the unions/POAs do not hold anyone accountable and so bad behavior is encouraged.
          *
          The other thing to remember is that there are several studies out now (don’t know if they are peer reviewed) correlating the fact that sin-tax policies which turn police into de facto sources of revenue (with quotas) typically lead to severe disconnects between community and police.
          *
          Flint is entirely a GOP shindig, please show me how the Democratic party imposed the Emergency Manager, who then ignored a less costly and safer solution to make the change Gov Snyder (R) wanted, and whose GOP director of the MDEQ suppressed any dissent or action until it blew up (and to this day STILL hasn’t fixed anything, because IOKIYAR). Seriously, your failure to make the link to the Ds here undermines your entire post.
          *
          Forever War is more of a GOP thing than a D thing. Keep in mind just what kind of a mess Shrub left for Obama to get us out of (but O did get OBL which Shrub “didn’t care about” six months after 9/11/01). Your blaming the D’s equally (Both Siderism!) obscures the fact that any initiative or solution that required any kind of Congressional approval (including budgeting, such as the money for Benghazi security outsourced by the Bushies) was obstructed by the McConnell gang with filibusters and later Congressional majorities from gerrymandered districts in the House. One can’t move policies along unless they are paid for, and notice how we’ve had something like 60 voting attempts to kill off / defund / repeal Obamacare but not a single real budget in years, even before considering the wisdom of what the House barfed out under GOP control.
          *
          Chants aren’t policy, and more than “Four Legs Good, Two Legs Bad” helped Animal Farm.

          • rugger9 says:

            Edits, errata, etc.:
            “… Some NOTES on your list …”
            *
            “… 50 on a whim to remind them WHO’S boss,,,”
            *
            “…more than “Four Legs Good, Two Legs Bad” WAS NEEDED TO HELP Animal Farm. …” Note how later in that story the chant was changed to “Four Legs Good, Two Legs Better” as the pigs seized mastery as opposed to mere control.
            *
            Perhaps a review of Stein’s platform on Ferguson, Flint and Forever War would be useful for us.

      • jerryy says:

        “Anyone that votes for Trump directly or indirectly (by voting for Stein) gets what they deserve. Given a choice between war and dishonor, they choose dishonor but will get their war when Drumpf stiffs the PRC or Putin on something and they send the troops over the border.’
        .
        .
        For the last 16 years, most of the current two party crew you see in Hollywood East (Washington D.C.) has been running the show. What have we, as a country, got to show for it?
        .
        Ferguson, Flint, Forever War.

        It did not take marketing geniuses whispering political catch phrases in Donald Trump’s and Bernie Sanders’ ears to get them out capturing the popular support they have. it was there from the get-go.
        .
        Ferguson, Flint, Forever War.
        .
        As the many folks who have been here before know, the current convention hoopla will die down as it always does. Then, in spite of trying to label their opposite’s followers as racists know-nothings, the current leadership can very easily screw things up by continuing the ignore the folks that are plain tired of watching their country be destroyed from with-in.
        .
        Ferguson, Flint, Forever War.
        .
        The police departments have in large part quite trying to portray themselves as civilian agencies tasked with ‘protect and serve’ and are now paramilitary forces tasked with being occupying forces (DHS grants are used to buy armored personnel carriers and military grade weapons and spying gear. In the USA. In the USA.)
        .
        Other than a few notable exceptions, infrastructure is crumbling, cities and states are strained to their limits to provide basic services and jobs to their residents while the leadership pillages and loots their treasuries to give those already well-off even more.
        .
        Neither party justifies their actions in Ferguson, Flint, Forever War.
        .
        Posing hypotheticals is plying people with fear-mongering. How about instead posing solutions that just might get us out of these messes.
        .
        We do not know what will happen by electing either of these two, …, or anyone else.

  4. Bardi says:

    ” he is a demagogue who questions the need for eternal wars”

    Well said. I wish the binary opposite could do this but I don’t think she can. America needs to relearn Teddy’s quote, “Speak softly and carry a big stick; you will go far.” We tend to use the “big stick” way too much, IMO. For example, Iraq II.

  5. wayoutwest says:

    Trump’s clever bit of topical humor and baiting the Clintonites about Putin and Clinton’s email shredding worked quite well and they and their MSM flunkies are the ones who look asinine and quite dense.

    The sad part of this DNC corruption exposure is that we have ben reduced to depending on the kindness of strangers to get the information necessary to make informed choices about who will lead this country. The all out federal attack on whistleblowers has had its desired effect and whoever hacked the DNC should receive our thanks and even an award.

    • John Casper says:

      You wrote, “Trump’s clever bit of topical humor and baiting the Clintonites about Putin and Clinton’s email shredding worked quite well and they and their MSM flunkies are the ones who look asinine and quite dense.”

      33. Do you have any polls to back up your claim?

  6. What Constitution? says:

    Memo to everybody: Never put anything in an email you wouldn’t want to see on an overhead screen in front of a jury.

    Trying to identify who “the usual suspects” are is getting more and more difficult, but recognizing that nothing is truly “confidential” when the electronic transmission is involved ought to be a given these days. That’s the one true takeaway from reading truly stupid comments from people who should know better after maybe Russia hacks the DNC’s servers and Wikileaks dribbles it out because Assange is pissed at Hillary and Trump could profit from it. Really? That’s some kind of surprise?

  7. wayoutwest says:

    The view of world events seen from Clinton World seen to be somewhat out of focus. The last time I checked Russia already had Crimea, lock stock and barrel. If anyone gave Crimea to Putin it was the US/Europe/NATO who set the stage for the Ukraine coup and then publicly stated, before the annexation, that they could do nothing to stop the little green men from securing the province. Trump may be saying he won’t pursue retaking the Crimea militarily, the only possible method available but that is just a wise assessment of the de facto situation.

  8. bevin says:

    It is peculiar how little interest there is in the clear evidence that the ‘Democratic’ Primaries were systematically subverted by criminals in a campaign that makes Watergate look like an unpaid parking ticket.
    Every trick in the book appears to have been used from vote suppression to failure to count votes after they had been cast. More ominous is the evidence that sophisticated software was used to produce vote totals in which large numbers of fake Hillary ‘ballots’ swayed State totals.

    We have heard closely reasoned arguments in the past to the effect that votes ought to be hand counted in the presence of neutral scrutineers-which is the way it is done in most countries- or that, at the very least there should be a ‘paper trail’ capable of being scrutinised after the initial count. Currently there are no guarantees that election results are tabulated properly or reported honestly.

    In essence what the democratic Convention is demonstrating is that there is no representative democracy in the USA. The old traditions of Tammany, Boss Pendergast and the Daleys have become established practice in an age in which computer voting makes corruption pitifully easy.

    And the bien pensant intelligentsia of America seems ‘OK with it’ just so long as the process produces not a Trump but another Clinton. This really is treason on a massive scale: millions of people refusing to look at the truth, whistling and turning away as they pass the crime scene.
    It is not a new phenomenon in American History, however, as we all know very well. A nation founded upon serial genocides-with theft in mind-and slave labour is scarred through to its soul.
    https://off-guardian.org/2016/07/29/video-protesters-blocked-access-to-seats-at-dnc/

    • John Casper says:

      “It is peculiar how little interest there is in the clear evidence that the ‘Democratic’ Primaries were systematically subverted by criminals in a campaign that makes Watergate look like an unpaid parking ticket.”

      Watergate, was Republicans breaking into Democratic offices.
      .
      1. What similarities to do you see between the Watergate burglars and the DNC leaks?
      .
      Please provide quotes to support your claims. Please provide links to those quotes.
      .
      2. What criminal charges do you think the DNC could face?
      .
      Please provide quotes to support your claims. Please provide links to those quotes.

  9. Rayne says:

    wayoutwest (2:39) — This:

    …Yes there was a Hail Mary low price offer just before the switch but would you trust the crooks from Detroit who had been extorting Flint with their monopoly power to actually honor that deal even if they could which is doubtful. …

    Bullshit. DWSD’s last minute offer was as binding as the rates before it, more so because the governor’s office and the state’s Treasury were the puppetmasters controlling the decision making process at both ends and are presumed to know more about dependencies. If the offer didn’t get accepted, it’s because either the governor’s office and the state’s Treasury chose not to do so.

    Don’t bother to reply to me on this. I’m moving on. Keep in mind some of us actually have a vested interest in this — like my kid who lives in Flint right at this moment. Spare a thought about who you are affecting with your uninformed opinions.

    • wayoutwest says:

      I’m glad to hear you are moving on but I’m sure others will continue to display their wounds and angst whenever the word Flint pops up. Six more people were arrested today for their involvement in this crisis and again the worst charges are for the cover-up.

      The only document I have seen about this Hail Mary offer from Detroit was an email and unless the world has change dramatically while I wasn’t paying attention it remains just an email not a contract. I am surprised that you continue to side with the Crooks of Detroit but I suppose that’s just politics.

      It is sad news that your kid lives in Flint and I would also be worried about that situation but not because of the water which can be avoided unlike the mean streets of Flint.

      • John Casper says:

        In Rayne’s reply to you, she wrote, “Don’t bother to reply to me on this.”
        .
        35. Did you miss it or choose to ignore it?
        .
        You wrote, “I’m glad to hear you are moving on…”
        .
        She’s, “moving on,” from replying to your nonsense about Flint.
        .
        35. 1 Why are you, “glad,” about that?
        .
        You wrote, “…but not because of the water which can be avoided unlike the mean streets of Flint.”
        .
        35.2 Does that mean you support reparations?
        .
        “The Case For Reparations” by Ta-Nehisi Coates
        http://www.theatlantic.com/magazine/archive/2014/06/the-case-for-reparations/361631/
        .
        Please quote any of Coates’ sentences with which you don’t agree 100%.
        .
        35.3. If your reference to the, “mean streets of Flint,” did not mean you support reparations, what did you mean?
        .
        You wrote, “The only document I have seen about this Hail Mary offer from Detroit was an email … . ”
        .
        35.4 Do you have a link to it?
        .
        35.5 If so, would you comment relevant quotes from the email and a link to it in this thread?

  10. Rayne says:

    jerryy (4:16) — ” the US EPA had their hand in the Flint water crises” — yeah, an EPA which had been systematically undermined by Congress for years so that it could not do its job. That EPA.

    The one entity unscathed by the Flint mess is Congress.

    • jerryy says:

      “The one entity unscathed by the Flint mess is Congress.”
      .
      Yeah, I did mention them. The days go by and still no help for the folks in that area.

      • wayoutwest says:

        There seems to be quite a lot of work being done in Flint already with multiple crews replacing the remaining lead feeder pipes, in the affected areas, which should be finished by the end of the year. Replacing the old and leaky water system will probably require federal aid but that is a long term project not requiring immediate action.

        The sad fact about the poor people in Flint, most affected by this crisis, is that after all this money is spent to secure ‘clean’ drinking water for them they will still be stuck living in poverty and crime that is unless Trump is successful in forcing GM and other US manufactures to return to cities like Flint bringing the jobs back that once offered upward mobility and prosperity throughout the region.

        • John Casper says:

          You wrote 72 words without a period, “the sad fact about the poor people in Flint, most affected by this crisis, is that after all this money is spent to secure ‘clean’ drinking water for them they will still be stuck living in poverty and crime that is unless Trump is successful in forcing GM and other US manufactures to return to cities like Flint bringing the jobs back that once offered upward mobility and prosperity throughout the region.”
          .
          36. Did Evangelista write that?
          .
          36.1 Do you share your handle?
          .
          Back on July 21, you opposed industrialization.
          .
          “wayoutwest on July 21, 2016 at 2:29 pm In reply to Jim McKay

          True statement, but we humans and our industrial civilization are trapping enough of those BTU’s delivered by the sun by generating GHG through overconsumption and endless economic growth.
          If your numbers are accurate we humans are producing a staggering number of BTU’s every year, year after year.
          .
          wayoutwest on July 21, 2016 at 6:38 pm In reply to Jim McKay
          Jim, you seem to be putting your faith in a technocratic fantasy that has never lived up to its promises and created the problems we now face. You also leave out the mega amounts of FF energy required to produce this transition along with the massive amount of mining, manufacturing, displacement and probably war needed to source the raw materials that will be required.
          Solar and wind power are at or near their peak efficiency already and I don’t see any practical or affordable breakthroughs coming anytime soon. Trusting our wizards of science or technocrats to save us from the coming disaster they helped create is folly.
          The Big Green transition is already in motion because it will create huge profits but no one has shown that it will have any near term effects on GW and even the projected positive effects far in the future are questionable.
          We have been raised and indoctrinated in a culture that claims a right to over consume so I understand your hope for a future that doesn’t require sacrifice or facing reality but living in a Big Green future on a baking degraded planet won’t be that great.
          .
          wayoutwest on July 23, 2016 at 1:41 pm In reply to Jim McKay
          Hansen is a mouthpiece for the Nuke industry and an opportunist who wants us to believe in Green, Safe and oh so necessary Nukes. Next you will probably quote another opportunist who wrote the training manual for greenwashing and corporate control of the environmental movement, Bill McKibben. There are many dedicated and honest people involved with 360.org but they either don’t know or don’t care that they are being used. These corporate stooges masquerading as activists have lured the idealistic, gullible and uninformed into the corporate/NGO dead end grasp of big money while the Big Green investors are gleefully counting their Green $Trillion investment fund gleaned partially from the FF disinvestment movement at major universities. This was led by upwardly mobile young idealists ensuring their comfortable positions in the corporate controlled environmental NGO industry.
          I don’t understand why you parrot these corporate Green fantasies denying the reality of what is actually happening unless you depend in some way on this agenda.”
          .
          .
          Jim and I asked you questions on that thread.
          .
          https://www.emptywheel.net/2016/07/20/chris-christie-and-karl-roves-us-attorney-project/
          .
          You ran away.
          .
          36.2 Do you know as little about energy as you do about Flint?
          .
          36.3 Do you agree with yourself on July 21-23, or today?

          • wayoutwest says:

            JC, you don’t seem to be bright enough to recognize when your technocratic fantasies are being dismantled by someone on the far left who agrees with writers such as those at Deep Green Resistance.

            Jimbo was the one who cut and ran at the other thread because all he could do was parrot technocrat BS rhetoric to feebly try to back up his agenda.

            If you could come up with a rational argument, not a linkfest or cut and paste reprint of my comments I would gladly dismantle it and hand it back to you to count my words and Grammer errors.

            • John Casper says:

              You wrote, “JC, you don’t seem to be bright enough…”
              .
              37. Since you refuse to respond to any of my questions, can we infer anything about you?
              .
              You wrote, “… to recognize when your technocratic fantasies…”
              .
              37.1 Can you start with the top-five?
              .
              You wrote, “… to recognize when your technocratic fantasies are being dismantled… .”
              .
              37.2 Can you quote where you, “dismantled,” them and provide a link?
              .
              37.3 You wrote, “…by someone on the far left…”
              .
              37.4 Who is it?
              .
              You wrote, “who agrees with writers such as those at Deep Green Resistance.”
              .
              37.5 Who are these writers?
              .
              37.5.1 Do any of these writers advocate getting off the internet to reduce demand for electricity?
              .
              37.5.1 Do they know how to use spellcheck?
              .
              You wrote, “Jimbo was the one who cut and ran at the other thread because all he could do was parrot technocrat BS rhetoric to feebly try to back up his agenda.”
              .
              37.6 What, “other thread?”
              .
              Please link to it. I’d like to see it.
              .
              You wrote, “If you could come up with a rational argument,…”
              .
              37.7 On what topic would you like a, “rational argument?”
              .
              You wrote, “…not a linkfest…?”
              .
              37.7.1 What’s a, “linkfest?”
              .
              37.7.2 Can you link to one?
              .
              You wrote, “…or cut and paste reprint of my comments…”
              .
              37.8 Would you prefer I paraphrase?
              .
              You wrote, “I would gladly dismantle it….”
              .
              37.9 Do you have an example at this blog where you, dismantled someone’s argument?
              .
              37.9.1 If so, can you quote it and link to it?
              .
              I haven’t seen it.
              .
              37.9.2 When someone quotes you, it makes you unable to, “dismantle,” their arguments?
              .
              You wrote, “and hand it back to you to count my words and Grammer errors.”
              .
              37.10 When should I expect your first dismantling?
              .
              37.11 Will you, “hand it back,” on this thread?
              .
              37.12 Did you capitalize and misspell grammar on purpose?
              .
              37.12.1 When you’re at emptywheel dot net, does your monitor display a red, squiggly line underneath certain words you type?

  11. Rayne says:

    wayoutwest — You’re an unmitigated ass intent on provocation. You are clueless about Flint, and you willfully misinterpret what I’ve written about it. Most of the same damned damaged pipes remain in use and vulnerable to shifts in chemicals and temperature at any time.

    But then you know jack-all about the recent Boil Water Advisory. Really, just fuck off.

    I am moving on to the next post, since I have to spell that out for provocateurs like you.

  12. wayoutwest says:

    I suppose I should move on before someone else has a Mike Moore moment and requires medical intervention

    Boil water advisories are relatively common in cities with old water systems and will continue to happen until the systems are replaced, which will take decades, unless this contamination came from Detroit River water.

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