Maria Butina’s Lawyer Changes His Story about Her Romance with Paul Erickson

There are a number of inconsistencies and sketchy claims (about who he thinks was targeted by the FBI and the timing of his disclosures) in former Overstock CEO Patrick Byrne’s claims (Sara Carter’s story, NYT story, Fox Interview, Seth Hettena Q&A, Chris Cuomo interview) that he had been a “non-standard” informant for the FBI about Maria Butina.

The short version is that she sought him out in July 2015, telling him Aleksandr Torshin had asked her to do so, then started a sexual relationship with him, then later turned her attention to networking with presidential campaigns. All along the way, Byrne claims, he kept the FBI informed and acted on their requests regarding his relationship with Butina. Then, 9 months after she was arrested, in April 2019 and at a period too late to help her sentencing, he reached out to the FBI and first without counsel (in spite of his claim to Fox that a big Republican lawyer told him he’d go to jail for the rest of his life over this) and then with a lawyer told the FBI what had happened. He attributes coming forward to a conversation with Warren Buffet, though Buffet claims not to know what he was involved with.

I may return to the oddities in Byrne’s story.

For now, however, I’d like to examine what her lawyer Robert Driscoll has claimed about Byrne.

In a letter to John Durham, DOJ’s IG, and OPR (shared with Carter), Driscoll  suggested that he should have been provided details of what Byrne shared with the FBI as Brady information.

By email, letter, phone, and in person, the defense repeatedly pressed the government for any Brady material and was not provided any. In particular, we suggested to the government a strong suspicion that counterintelligence or other FBI investigators used confidential informants (“CIs”) in their investigation of Maria, and that information provided by such witnesses to the government might be relevant to guilt or sentencing. Moreover, we suggested that the government had presented Maria with one or more “dangles” — that is, orchestrated opportunities to provide the government  information unwittingly while being observed.

In writing, the government denied the existence of any such Brady material. Orally, during debrief sessions with Maria, I directly told the government that I believed Patrick Byrne, Chief Executive of Overstock.com, who had a sporadic relationship with Maria over a period of years prior to her arrest, was a government informant. My speculation was flatly denied. My associate Alfred Carry made similar assertions in a separate debrief that he covered and was also rebuffed.

Mr. Byrne has now contacted me and has confirmed that he, indeed, had a “non-standard arrangement” with the FBI for many years, and that beginning in 2015 through Maria’s arrest, he communicated and assisted government agents with their investigation of Maria. During this time, he stated he acted at the direction of the government and federal agents by, at their instruction, kindling a manipulative romantic relationship with her. He also told me that some of the details he provided the government regarding Maria in response was exculpatory — that is, he reported to the government that Maria’s behavior with him was inconsistent with her being a foreign agent and more likely an idealist and age-appropriate peace activist.

[snip]

Byrne evidently informed the government of many meetings with political and other figures that Maria had mentioned to him, often in advance of the meetings themselves. The government did not try to intervene or try to stop any meetings, nor did they express any concern. (This undercuts the government’s position at sentencing that Maria’s activities involved collection of information that could be of “substantial intelligence value to the Russian government” or pose a “serious potential to harm U.S. foreign policy interests and national security” as those same activities were observed and permitted for years.)

At some point prior to the 2016 election, when Byrne’s contact with Maria diminished or ceased, the government asked and encouraged him to renew contact with her and he did so, continuing to inform the government of her activities. Byrne states he was informed by government agents that his pursuit and involvement with Maria (and concomitant surveillance of her) was requested and directed from the highest levels of the FBI and intelligence community.

As time passed, Byrne became more and more convinced that Maria was what she said she was–an inquisitive student in favor of better U.S.-Russian relations–and not an agent of the Russian government or someone involved in espionage or illegal activities. He states he conveyed these thoughts and the corroborating facts and observations to the government.

Now, I absolutely don’t rule out the government withholding information that would be helpful to the defense. They do that far too often, and there are good reasons to doubt the prosecutors in this case. But Driscoll’s claim that this might be a Brady violation is premised on two things: first, that the FBI really considered Byrne an informant — which is what they denied when asked directly — and that the FBI considered anything he gave them to be exculpatory.

In fact, the story Byrne told is actually quite damning to Butina. From the very start, according to what he told Sara Carter, Butina was pursuing him, not vice versa. She told him, from the very start, she had been sent by Torshin and explained (credibly, given Putin’s interests) they were interested in Byrne because of his involvement in blockchain technology. And her offer of a trip to Russia with networking there matched her M.O. in approaching the NRA.

Byrne revealed details about his intimate relationship with the Russian gun right’s activist Butina. Byrne was a keynote speaker on July, 8, 2015 at Freedom Fest, a yearly Libertarian gathering that hosts top speakers in Las Vegas. Shortly after his address, Butina approached him. She told him she was the leader of a gun right’s organization in Russia. He congratulated her, spoke to her shortly, but then “brushed her off.”

The young redheaded Russian graduate student then approached him again over the course of the conference and explained that she worked for the Vice Chairman of the Central Bank of Russia and sent by them to make contact with Byrne.

She also said “Did you know you’re a famous man in Russia in certain circles? We watch your Youtube videos, we know about your relationship with Milton Friedman.”

She said she was appointed to lead Russia’s gun right’s group by Lieutenant-General Mikhail Kalashnikov, who was a Russian general, most notably known for his AK-47 machine gun design. Byrne says he considered the designation by Kalashnikov a significant honor, a signal of a kind he knows some mythical figures make on their way out. Byrne then had an “extensive conversation about Russian history and political situation.  Butina told him that the purpose of her visit was primarily to extend an invitation to Byrne to come to Russia to speak at the Central Bank. After that, there would be a trip to a major resort to meet with various intellectuals and dignitaries from the Russian power structure. Butina told Byrne the event would offer him the opportunity to meet senior Russian officials and oligarchs. She wanted to see Byrne again to start preparing him for such a trip.

Even more significantly, as Byrne tells it, after Butina first suggested she was using a romantic relationship with him as cover to explain their communications, she’s the one who first pushed sex.

He rented a hotel room with two bedrooms because he was under the impression that the romantic texts were simply her way to cover for communicating with him. However, she arrived at the hotel beforehand, occupied the room before Byrne’s arrival, and when he arrived,  she made clear that her flirtatious texts were not simply a disguise.

And Byrne claims he grew quite alarmed by Butina’s interest in networking with political campaigns.

“Eventually, her conversations became less about philosophy and it became clear that she was doing things that made me quite uncomfortable,” stated Byrne. “She was basically schmoozing around with the political class and eventually she said to me at one point I want to meet anyone in the Hillary campaign, the Cruz, the Rubio campaigns.”

Butina had also told Byrne, that Torshin, the Russian politician who she had been assisting while she was in the U.S., had sent her to the United States to meet other libertarians and build relations with political figures.

Byrne also claims he told Butina she needed to disclose her activities to the government, something that directly contradicts what Butina claimed repeatedly during the sentencing process, that, “If I had known to register as a foreign agent, I would have done so without delay.”

Byrne said he warned Butina: “Maria the United States is not like Russia, and knowing powerful people ‘like oligarchs and politicians’ won’t help if the FBI believes a line has been crossed.” Byrne believed Butina was naive but not blameless. He said during the interview, “If you’re reporting to any Russian official  as you’re doing this stuff and not disclosing yourself here, there are these men in black here and they don’t really give a shit who you know here -that’s not going to save you.”

It is true that Butina repeatedly told him she wasn’t a spy and Byrne ultimately became convinced that was true. But even in his description of that, he told Carter that he believed Butina was being used by US and Russian intelligence, not that he believed she had no tie to intelligence.

Although Byrne was concerned about Butina’s possible motives, he eventually became convinced that she was an intellectual being used by both the Russians and American intelligence apparatus. She was stuck between two highly contentious and secretive governments, he claimed. He relayed those concerns to the FBI, he said.

If that’s what he told the FBI, it does nothing to make her any less of an unregistered agent of Russia.

Very significantly, though, Butina’s involvement with Byrne during the period she was supposedly in a meaningful romantic relationship with Paul Erickson refutes the claims her attorneys have made about that relationship.

As I have laid out, from the very start, Driscoll portrayed the government’s claim that she caught Paul Erickson in a honey pot as sexism, with mixed success.

Then there’s the specific government insinuation that Butina was engaged in a honey pot operation. It substantiates this two ways — first, by suggesting she’s not that into Erickson.

Further, in papers seized by the FBI, Butina complained about living with U.S. Person 1 and expressed disdain for continuing to cohabitate with U.S. Person 1.

It also alleges she offered sex for favors.

For example, on at least one occasion, Butina offered an individual other than U.S. Person 1 sex in exchange for a position within a special interest organization.

Driscoll pretty convincingly argues the government misinterpreted this last bit.

The only evidence the government relied on for its explosive claim was an excerpt from an innocuous three-year-old text exchange (attached as Exhibit 3) sent in Russia between Ms. Butina and DK, her longtime friend, assistant, and public relations man for The Right to Bear Arms gun rights group that she founded.

DK, who often drove Ms. Butina’s car and thus was listed on the insurance, took the car for its annual government-required inspection and insurance renewal, and upon completion, texted (according to government translators), “I don’t know what you owe me for this insurance they put me through the wringer.” Ms. Butina jokingly replied, “Sex. Thank you so much. I have nothing else at all. Not a nickel to my name.” DK responded: “Ugh . . . ( ”—that is, with a sad face emoticon.

Aside from the fact that Maria is friends with DK’s wife and child and treats DK like a brother, the reference to sex is clearly a joke.

We still haven’t seen the government response to this, but what Driscoll presents does support his claim this is a “sexist smear.”

But Driscoll’s dismissal of the other claim — that Butina disdained living with Erickson — is far less convincing.

[I]n response to her girlfriend’s own complaints about her boyfriend’s failure to call in three weeks (accompanied by an angry face emoji) that Maria responds that her own boyfriend (Mr. Erickson) has been “bugging the sh*t out of me with his mom” and that she has “a feeling that I am residing in a nursing home.” “Send a link to the dating app[,]”

Driscoll spins this as an attack on Erickson’s now late mother, but doesn’t address the central allegation that she likened living with her much older boyfriend to living in a nursing home. Nor that she started the exchange by saying “let’s go have some fun with guys!!!” because she was “Bored. So there.” Furthermore, Butina seemed concerned that her use of Tinder would become public because she logged in using Facebook.

Though he has been sharing schmaltzy videos of Butina and Erickson with ABC, Driscoll also doesn’t address the fact that as early as May, Butina was proffering to flip on Erickson in fraud charges in South Dakota, which would have the effect of putting her in a position to negotiate permanent visa status independent of him, while limiting her own legal exposure.

Even in her sentencing memo — long after he knew of her relationship with Byrne, according to his public statements — Driscoll claimed she moved to the US in 2016 so she could be in the same hemisphere as Erickson.

On a personal level, Erickson and Maria kept in touch after the 2013 meeting and she began a romantic relationship with him in the following year.

[snip]

She also wished to be in the same hemisphere as her romantic interest. So Maria and Erickson explored both educational and business opportunities for her. This is the genesis of the Description of the Diplomacy Project proposal referenced in the Statement of Offense.

Among the events Butina planned to attend as part of that Diplomacy Project was the July 8-11 Freedom Fest convention where she first sought out Byrne. And before she moved to the US, she was already involved sexually with Byrne, according to his claims.

The portrayal of Butina’s relationship with Erickson as true romance has long been suspect — not only did she offer to flip on him in May 2018 (in exchange for which she might have gotten a permanent visa), but she did flip on him months before her plea deal. But if Byrne’s claims are true, it suggests she was using sexual relationships to help network in the US, and it further suggests Driscoll knew that when making claims about the import of her relationship with Erickson. If the FBI did obtain information from Byrne they chose (justifiably or not) not to release to defense attorneys, it might explain why they believed she was operating as a honey pot: because that’s what Byrne told them happened to him.

In his public comments to the NYT, Driscoll explained that Butina didn’t want to settle down (the implication is, with Byrne; he has claimed she wanted to settle down with Erickson).

“I think she admired him, but I don’t think she was looking to settle down,” Mr. Driscoll said.

In his comments to Carter, he suggests that he suspects there were other sources for the FBI.

Driscoll said there was suspicion that the FBI did not disclose all the information it had on Butina and he stated that he believed “Patrick is not the only one” who was giving information to the FBI.

“We’ve thought of several possibilities and some we are more confidant than others. I’m firmly convinced,” said Driscoll, who shared numerous letters and emails with this reporter that he exchanged with the FBI.

A seemingly disturbed homeless man, Hamdy Alex Abouhussein, who has asked to submit an amicus brief in Butina’s appeal (the public defender whom Judge Tanya Chutkan appointed to make sure that Driscoll had no conflicts when she pled guilty, AJ Kramer, is representing her in her appeal) claimed (incorrectly) that he’s the reason Butina got thrown into solitary and that FBI used Butina as a dangle to entrap him. So he also claims to have tried to provide exculpatory information.

Plainly, one cannot tell exactly when, before accepting Butina’s guilty plea, did Judge Chutkan learn of the jail’s blocking of Abouhussein’s letters to Butina, including his pictures, or the FBI dangle operation. Moreover, as the plea hearing transcript shows, Butina responded to the Judge’s sequence of questions about effectiveness of each of her then-three attorneys3, including the just-appointed for the plea negotiations role, A.J. Kramer4, who was yet to meet Abouhussein (they met outside the courtroom after the plea hearing, see pre-plea email from Abouhussein to Kramer, exh 2). Upon information and belief, Butina approved her attorneys’ performance only because they, under DOJ’s duress and a gag order, never informed her of the FBI dangle operation and surrendered to the prosecutors’ intimidation by keeping the dangle operation out of the public eye and trial record5. Admittedly, choice was either a rock or a hard place.

However, Judge Chutkan did sentence Butina to 18 months in prison after the notice of Abouhussein’s Amicus Brief Docket No. 77 was entered, which means Judge Chutkan was t/me/y presented with the “FBI dangle” and “letters blocked by Butina’s jail” Brady issues. Per Rule 51, this Honorable Court now has a lawful duty to investigate the issue of the FBI’s dangle operation that intentionally built up an oligarch-connected naive student as a false spy before casting her sex lure to hook the homeless Abouhussein, who was attending a public event at the Heritage Foundation to eat the free lunch as usual. Had he swallowed the lure6, any Grand Jury would indict this HamdySandwitch of a spy couple with ties to Putin, which explains Prosecutors’ honeypot sex allegations tainting Butina upon her arrest. Only in America!

So, yeah, there are other allegations, but Driscoll is right to suggest Byrne is more credible than, at least, this one.

But if Byrne’s story is credible, then it’s not clear that it helps Butina, at all, because it undermines the story her defense has been telling for a year.

Given her repeated assertions she’s happy with Driscoll’s representation, it’s unclear the basis for Butina’s appeal. I think the government operated in bad faith when they asked for 18 months, but that’s not a basis for an appeal. I think Driscoll made a mistake both by not arguing more forcibly that given the most relevant comparable sentence on 18 USC 951 charges, that of Carter Page recruiter Evgeny Buryakov’s 30 month sentence, a 9 month sentence would have been proportionate for someone like Butina who was neither recruiting nor operating covertly.

I also think that if Driscoll really cared about the declaration from former Assistant Director of FBI’s Counterintelligence Division, Robert Anderson Jr at her sentencing, he should have questioned what documents Anderson relied upon to judge that Butina was a spotter for Russian intelligence instead of deciding that, “I’m happy to leave the record as it is.” But if Driscoll had reason to believe the FBI had really damning information from Byrne that undercut his claims about Butina’s romance with Erickson, it might explain why he didn’t ask those questions.

The other day, Butina’s lawyer for her appeal AJ Kramer asked for an extension on his deadline to submit Butina’s appeal, which could mean he wants to add claims of Brady violations in her appeal (though he says he needs more time to consult the public record, and Driscoll and his associate Alfred Carry, by Driscoll’s own admission, never put their request for information about Byrne in writing).

But given Byrne’s public claims, it’s not actually clear that will help her case, as it mostly provides an explanation for why the FBI was so insistent on some of the allegations it did make.

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60 replies
  1. P J Evans says:

    So why didn’t Byrne go to the FBI right at the start, when Butina approached him? Shouldn’t he have considered that she was a Russian agent, or did that kind of thought disappear when the USSR collapsed?

  2. Willis Warren says:

    Wow, his website (deepcature.com) is batshit insane… but can’t stop laughing at the Cato talk video where he’s wearing a kung fu outfit of some kind


    The Deep Capture Analysis
    Introduction
    The Setting
    1.The Players (hedge funds)
    2.The Pawns (journalists)
    3.The Regulators (SEC)
    The Crime
    4.The Crime: Naked Short Selling
    5.The Corporate Democracy Hoax
    6.Ruined Firms & Looted Pensions
    7.Systemic Risk

    The Cover-up
    8.The Deep Capture Campaign
    9.The Hijacking of Social Media

  3. BobCon says:

    This shows my obvious ignorance of Brady, but I’d think defense attorneys would have almost as good an argument for seeing non-exculpatory evidence as exculpatory evidence.

    I suppose there’s a long history here….

    • bmaz says:

      It is a long story, and it gets complicated in practice as opposed to theory. But, even in theory, Brady material is by definition “exculpatory” in nature.

      There is the related, but different, Jencks material, which is evidence that is behind the government witness’s testimony, and is usually inculpatory.

      • Rugger9 says:

        Could that be why the government did not release the evidence, because the USA determined it was inculpatory and the request was specifically for Brady items?

        Like classifications, it would seem to be ripe for abuse to me, if the USA looking for a promotion called it Jencks when a defense investigator would spot the BS contained within. Until it’s revealed at trial, the defense wouldn’t know about the opportunity to poke holes in the prosecution case.

        • emptywheel says:

          And it might never be revealed at trial, if they had no plans to call Byrne, which is the only time they’d have to release it.

          • bmaz says:

            Rugger9 – Yeah. As I said, it gets complicated, and almost always very fact specific. First off, I just do not know. But, secondly, even if I had a better idea, these arguments are not easy to parse.

    • Frank says:

      The Supreme Court observed in Strickler v. Greene, “Thus the term ‘Brady violation’ is sometimes used to refer to any breach of the broad obligation to disclose exculpatory evidence – that is, to any suppression of so-called ‘Brady material’ – although strictly speaking, there is never a real ‘Brady violation’ unless the nondisclosure was so serious that there is a reasonable probability that the suppressed evidence would have produced a different VERDICT.”

      There is a Catch 22 here. If the prosecutor believes there is a reasonable probability that he is in possession of evidence that the the defendant is innocent, that prosecutor shouldn’t bring the case to trial and therefore might never need to turn over Brady material. Much Brady evidence concerns the credibility of witnesses. Even then, should a prosecutor really be putting a witness on the stand he believes won’t be found credible by the jury?

      Since the decision about what constitutes Brady material is based on the judgment of the prosecutor, courts are reluctant to overturn verdicts when it can’t be proven the prosecutor acted in bad faith. What does a judge do when he personally feels material could have helped the defense, but the judge feels the right verdict was reached? Isn’t the judge forced to back the prosecutor’s judgment?

      Congress has never written a law defining and enshrining Brady requirements. The Supreme Court has ruled only on material capable of producing a different verdict. It is hard to see how material not serious enough to change a verdict is going to be the subject of a Supreme Court ruling. Different courts apply different standards. So, unless Congress acts to clearly define a prosecutor’s responsibilities in a manner that requires less judgment, controversies about Brady material are going to continue.

  4. Rugger9 says:

    OT, but does anyone else think that the market trashing rant today by Kaiser Quisling had a more sinister purpose? It seems we get these with regularity, and since we can expect that someone is managing the message they also may be able to time it to buy low, sell high (such as the oligarchs and TrumpOrg). To trigger it, all the profiteers need to do is to say one of the many reliable prompts to set KQ off.

    One wonders how the farmers who sell a significant part of their crops to China will like the idea of being “hereby ordered” to stop by KQ.

    It’s a win-win for other political inconveniences as well, preventing further discussion of GOP and Palace peccadillos.

    • Vicks says:

      Oh hell yes.
      Day traders have been having a field day since his first tweet in office.
      Even for the less involved investor there are apps that will send you alerts with names like “trump trigger” when Trump tweets about one of your stocks.
      Just imagine what the folks are doing that have advance notice….

    • Geoff says:

      The new trade is sell right after Jerry speaks. Work backward from Trump’s end-game. He NEEDS to be re-elected, and knows this depends on not cratering the economy. He also can’t crater the stock market. So in order to keep the US market propped while he carries out the lunacy of the trade war, he needs interest rate cuts. The way he gets them, now that Jerry has mentioned trade war as a 4th? mandate (financial market being the 3rd, evidence Q418), is to extort them, via ratcheting up the trade war each time Jerry doesnt comply. Today’s move is because 25bp is priced in for September and Trump probably wants 50.

      So where does all this lead, you ask? Well, look at the markets…they keep almost hitting new highs then he pulls this stunt, they crater, he dials it back a bit, global economy teeters some more, he gets some rate cuts, then he slams Jerry again. He only has to do that a few times to get maximum interest rate juice to the economy.

      Next step, after ZIRP is achieved, is more tax cuts. Stupid, poorly targeted tax cuts, or tax cuts that will destory SS and Medicare, but either way, tax cuts. More juice for economy.

      Last trick, is the fake trade war resolution. He wont get anything he wants, but all he has to do is decide to make up something that China supposedly has capitulated to, dial back the tariffs, remove some, talk up a great deal, voila, his base and the Republicans and market go crazy. Briefly.

      And in the meantime, as every person he knows knows, you grift the hell out of these moves by front running the market on his tweet rage days. Then who cares what happens when he tanks it all later, because theyve already been looting for four years.

      • Vicks says:

        Don’t forget timing.
        I will bet you a doughnut the reason he changed his mind (the third? time) and said he was going to wait to increase tariffs until December was to pad Q4/2019 numbers with a manufactured end of year buying frenzy from consumers and (more importantly businesses with cash) looking to stock up their inventories and supplies before the tariffs hit.
        Like anything the Trump admin is involved in, including Trump-o-Nomics you gotta watch their hands.
        It will be interesting to see how they will adjust for the 2018 figure they came up with to claim Trump won the GDP last year.

        • Geoff says:

          I love doughnuts, but I’m going to have to pass on that bet. ;-) Everything with him is manipulative, so that’s most definitely something one of his stooges would suggest. Kudlow’s too dumb to think it up, but Im sure there is some lackey who whispers sweet things as such into his disgusting ear.

    • Vicks says:

      He clearly seems like a guy that went through something that was a pretty big deal and has been getting worked up about it for a long time.
      I think Byrne’s story may be part truth and part filling in the blanks to create a picture that he could make sense of.
      Even at it’s most basic level it must have been a bizarre and most likely an emotional experience and I think most people that found themselves interacting with someone they thought was suspicious enough to report to the FBI would take notes or maybe even confide in someone.
      It will be interesting to see what sort of corroboration comes up.

  5. orionATL says:

    two come-on sexual relationships with two older, influential american men?

    a russian handler named alexander torshin to whom b. relayed back her work?

    interested in meeting people in the clinton and cruz campaigns?

    how come this Russian anny oakley wasn’t treated as a spy?

    “just a student eager to complete her studies in the usa” ? sure. and i’m a missing heir of the romanov’s.

    • Vicks says:

      I’m not an expert, but an attractive women looking to connect with men with power and influence isn’t illegal.
      Even if she seems to have a strategy, and it’s a whole lot of men.
      I’m not sure if Byrne was implying that it was entrapment or if he thought she was dangerous when during his interviews, he kept coming back to the FBI “just watched” and “let her” or “didn’t stop her” from having these meeting until they arrested her.
      Either way, it seemed like what she was doing was pretty squishy.

      • orionATL says:

        i’m not too serious about a spying charge for butina (though i’d really like to know why not), but i am very tired of reading, repeatedly, that Russians meddling in american politics after 2016 for any reason whatever are not to be taken all that seriously; and investigated and prosecuted seriously if any criminal (or civil) misconduct shows up as reasonable. if the dept of justice and FBI can relentlessly prosecute nsa and cia employees who are whistleblowers on technical or baseless charges in order to use them as an example to frighten others, we can surely do the same for Russian or Chinese citizens or agents who are meddling, as butina certainly was. this should definitely be the case after the national police and media sat on their ass or dawdled from late 2015 until too-late 2017 re the Russian digital invasion of the nation in 2015-16.

        this reminds me of the casual view that the attack on the dnc and Clinton campaign computers was just an inside job, or that facebook and its technology could never really influence an election, what a silly, silly thought.

        this matter of tolerating foreign meddling of any kind right, at the moment, is STUPID. whether foreigners have to register under FARA or not i’m not sure, but i’m damn sure sure ( :) ) that registration of anyone, american or foreigner, influencing either the american political process or American citizens on behalf of another government, needs to be a strictly-enforced requirement.

        one other thought, is the trump admin behind the casual treatment of butina (or her boyfriends)? or is just an innocent lass?

        • Vicks says:

          Perhaps the experts will weigh in but as far as I know “influencing” isn’t a crime.
          It was clear she came to our country to do “work” that benefitted Russia. She didn’t get caught stealing or manipulating these men for classified information so she can’t be prosecuted as a spy, the best our legal system could do was give her a heavy handed sentence for not registering as someone working on behalf of a foreign country.
          I think the “casual view” of the Clinton hack and facebook is propaganda.
          The DNC hack being an inside job is a alternate conspiracy from the right wing nuts and “you can’t prove that a single vote was changed” is a proven winner and a go-to pivot for team Trump since the beginning.
          I’m really worried about the power Trump has managed to build and I don’t know what he is up to over the last few days. It seems a bit more that letting off some steam.
          I never in a million years thought that Republican Lawmakers and 40% of our fellow Americans would trade our democratic system for a guy who seems to be willing to do just about anything to anybody (except them) to get people to watch his show,

          • Rayne says:

            Sure, that’s all Butina was — just an innocent unregistered foreign agent — if the millions donated by Russians to the NRA are completely ignored. If we ignore her assignment outlined in the indictment extracted from emails.

            • Vicks says:

              I will see your sarcasm, and raise it to “actively” ignored with news of FEC republicans refusing to precede with investigation into A Torshin.
              On a related and more positive note, Marion Hammer got caught not reporting a couple hundred grand of NRA payments for her lobbying.
              Of course this happened in Florida so she only got a slap on the wrist and will have to refile, but she IS a big name and it WAS a (local) public spectacle.
              https://www.sun-sentinel.com/news/politics/fl-ne-hammer-investigation-results

              • Rayne says:

                Republican-controlled FEC refusing to investigate Torshin should assure us Butina was excessively prosecuted. Hmm.

                I’m sure you won’t mind if I ignore anything more you have to say about the oh-so-harmless Butina as well.

                • vicks says:

                  Sorry, thought I was being clear
                  Clearly Buttina was influencing our politicians and collecting information for Russia and I am agreeing with you that she was far from harmless.
                  The piece I am looking for is what are the legal grounds for any further criminal accusations against her?

                  • Americana says:

                    Butina was using every means to inveigle her way into various positions to get god-knows-what information.

                    The fact Butina was going after blockchain technology is the strongest sign to me of espionage on her part. Any deeper knowledge about how blockchain tech was structured that she relayed would definitely have aided exploitation of American cyber weaknesses to further Russian espionage.

                    https://www.brookings.edu/blog/techtank/2018/04/17/blockchain-and-u-s-state-governments-an-initial-assessment/

                    From the above link:

                    Blockchain is no longer just a tool to mine cryptocurrencies or manage databases. Now U.S. state governments have recognized the technology’s potential for the delivery of public services, and are at various stages of implementation. For blockchain to emerge as the technological imperative for public services, states will have to change existing regulations. They must address concerns about scalability, the difficulty of removing and editing data once uploaded, and investment in the new technology.

                    Authors

                    Kevin C. Desouza
                    Nonresident Senior Fellow – Governance Studies, Center for Technology Innovation
                    KevDesouza
                    C
                    Chen Ye
                    Associate Professor of Management Information Systems – Purdue University Northwest

                    Kiran Kabtta Somvanshi
                    Visiting Fellow – IBM Center for Business of Government
                    Kiran_ET
                    BLOCKCHAIN’S APPEAL

                    The defining characteristic of a blockchain is its decentralized verification system. Once a transaction is committed to the blockchain, the record cannot be easily reverted by a single stakeholder, regardless of their social, economic, and political power. Second-generation blockchains such as Ethereum have also introduced a feature called “smart contracts”—software code stored on the blockchain that will execute a transaction automatically when certain conditions are met.

                    For many blockchain enthusiasts, one of the most promising aspects is the “trustless” nature of a blockchain – no need for a trusted third party such as a bank, credit card company, or real estate title company in the transfer of assets from one party to another. Most recently, in the 2018 Joint Economic Report submitted by the Joint Economic Committee of the US Congress provides several recommendations to policymakers, regulators, and entrepreneurs regarding applications of the blockchain technology.

                    • orionATL says:

                      well darn. here i was prepared to learn something about the impenetrable blockchain technology.

                      what do i find instead but two expositions on

                      1. fara (u.s.c. 611/614), that is, the requirement that persons trying to influence american public opinion register both themselves and the source of the info they are spreading.

                      and

                      2. u.s.c. 951 which provides penalties for individuals acting as agents of foreign governments without proper notification.

                      and how they may relate differentially or not with regard to the cases of paul manafort and maria butina.

                      very informative.

                      https://www.justice.gov/nsd-fara/general-fara-frequently-asked-questions

          • orionATL says:

            vicks –

            i appreciate your comments, but i think this part is a bit too fascile and, in fact, inaccurate:

            “…I think the “casual view” of the Clinton hack and facebook is propaganda.
            The DNC hack being an inside job is a alternate conspiracy from the right wing nuts and “you can’t prove that a single vote was changed” is a proven winner and a go-to pivot for team Trump since the beginning…”

            – “the dnc hack being an inside job” was not initially a conspiracy of right-wing nuts. it was rather a conspiracy pursued by a group of digital vigilantes who had strong initial credibility based on their “national security” reputations. that credibility and the republican-generated distrust of clinton affected initial public discussion of this matter and provided republicans shielding trump with another red-herring to use into the future. cf,

            https://www.thenation.com/article/a-new-report-raises-big-questions-about-last-years-dnc-hack/

            “… Qualified experts working independently of one another began to examine the DNC case immediately after the July 2016 events. Prominent among these is a group comprising former intelligence officers, almost all of whom previously occupied senior positions. Veteran Intelligence Professionals for Sanity (VIPS), founded in 2003, now has 30 members, including a few associates with backgrounds in national-security fields other than intelligence. The chief researchers active on the DNC case are four: William Binney, formerly the NSA’s technical director for world geopolitical and military analysis and designer of many agency programs now in use; Kirk Wiebe, formerly a senior analyst at the NSA’s SIGINT Automation Research Center; Edward Loomis, formerly technical director in the NSA’s Office of Signal Processing; and Ray McGovern, an intelligence analyst for nearly three decades and formerly chief of the CIA’s Soviet Foreign Policy Branch. Most of these men have decades of experience in matters concerning Russian intelligence and the related technologies. This article reflects numerous interviews with all of them conducted in person, via Skype, or by telephone…”

            that credibility and the related conspiracy theory has been completely shredded by the through detective work done for the special counsel’s office by the pittsburg (and san francisco) cyber security centers. this work revealed the activities of russian GRU (military intelligence) sappers in infiltrating the democratic party computers, down to the names of some officers?

            as for

            • orionATL says:

              correction:

              this comment is incomplete due to clumsy keyboard play :)

              see the complete version way down below at 8/28 12:56 pm

  6. x174 says:

    mt–thanks for this latest wrinkle in the evolving butina affair. it’s curious to try to figure out exactly how byrne figures into the ongoing activities of the FEC repukes to block an investigation into the links btw the ruskies and our beloved nra, which senator Wyden was good enough to bring to this country’s attention (https://about.bgov.com/news/russia-meddling-uproar-worsens-as-probe-of-nras-role-is-dropped/).
    the consistently (and persistently) obstructive behavior exhibited by the rethugs has all the hallmarks of a massive and extensive cover-up. the byrne piece of the puzzle seems rather peculiar. it seems as though there is something (or a number of things) missing that might help clarify what exactly was/is his role in the butina affair. on its face, his narrative seems particularly self-serving. i don’t get any sense of him. he seems to have just fallen out of the blue sky perhaps from a cuckoo’s nest (double entendre intended).

    • orionATL says:

      greengiant –

      clik on this citation and you are faced with a demand regarding some group yahoo is involved with called OATH? no matter how far into this labyrynth you go, you can’t get to your cite without acceeding to this demand.

      it’s all about “personalized” ads.

      you are highly knowledgable about computer matters. what gives? this stuff sounds ominous.

      • greengiant says:

        Oath seems to be the new name of yahoo amd aol. Since I am already a member of that hive and given all my clicks to them I don’t get this permission thing which is perhaps also related to EU privacy and tracking laws.
        Original article was by Brendan Cole at International Business Times, August 9, 2016. Neither seems to be in the wayback archives. To me both sites seem to be unattractive to offer to others as links. A google search shows
        https://www.bloomberg.com/news/articles/2016-08-09/mobster-or-central-banker-spanish-cops-allege-this-russian-both as another timely article. Main point being some Spanish authorities and some media covered Torshin’s connections to crime and crime groups on August 9, 2016. Maybe there was an agenda.

        Thanks for the feedback,

  7. greengiant says:

    Byrne’s saga is long, complicated, and turgid. Byrne checked out from maintaining his web site years ago. The contents were revamped several times possibly due to the libel suit and such. Byrne is a poster boy along side Dan Rather for the being scammed by sole source reporting as foreshadowed In Byrne’s case by Stig Larsen’s novel.

    The golden nuggets are Overstock winning a 5 million dollar judgment against a party in a bear raid, detailing how naked short selling worked, calling out related elements in Wall Street such as Steven A Cohen, Felix Sater and the oligarchical mobs, and indicting financial media for corruption. Political media is a twofer.

    Stopping at bat shit crazy is a win for the bad guys. Since Byrne was a major enemy of the criminal oligarchs he either had serious dementia or knew that Torshin’s goal was to painfully grind him into dust.

    • Vicks says:

      Besides the obvious questions I want to know;
      Who offered him a billion dollars for his silence?
      What makes him think Barr will be making arrests the near future?
      According to her linked in page, among other things, Butina was working on the first of her three master degrees at 17 years old. How does she do it?

      To clarify, these are actual claims made by these two, I am asking the questions sarcastically, to show skepticism

      • greengiant says:

        I have no energy for any of the Byrne Butina spam. I just look at what few facts there are. Someone who at one time referenced connections between oligarchs, media, Sater and even Trump the puppet is now buried under a new layer of mud.

  8. Democritus says:

    Started reading this and just damn. Good story, haven’t finished but it’s a compelling read. Just damn…. It’s nuts, but also highlights some of the ugly realities that we’ve known have been going on in Syria in a way most don’t.

    The drone footage at the camp as a section, with the little boys running and waving…

    “One choice leads to another choice, and if you make enough bad ones in a row, bad choices become the only kind you seem to make.”

    https://www.elle.com/culture/career-politics/a28485965/samantha-elhassani-isis-sisters-part-one/

    • Democritus says:

      Damn, the second part is the other sisters story/POV which fills in some details. Don’t want to spoil.

  9. orionATL says:

    vicks @8/24 12:56 am

    i appreciate your comments, but i think this part is a bit too fascile and, in fact, inaccurate:

    “…I think the “casual view” of the Clinton hack and facebook is propaganda. The DNC hack being an inside job is a alternate conspiracy from the right wing nuts and “you can’t prove that a single vote was changed” is a proven winner and a go-to pivot for team Trump since the beginning…”

    – “the dnc hack being an inside job” was not initially a conspiracy of right-wing nuts. it was rather a conspiracy pursued by a group of digital vigilantes who had strong initial credibility based on their “national security” reputations. that credibility and the republican-generated distrust of clinton affected initial public discussion of this matter and only subsequently provided republicans shielding trump with another red-herring to use into the future. cf,

    https://www.thenation.com/article/a-new-report-raises-big-questions-about-last-years-dnc-hack/

    “… Qualified experts working independently of one another began to examine the DNC case immediately after the July 2016 events. Prominent among these is a group comprising former intelligence officers, almost all of whom previously occupied senior positions. Veteran Intelligence Professionals for Sanity (VIPS), founded in 2003, now has 30 members, including a few associates with backgrounds in national-security fields other than intelligence. The chief researchers active on the DNC case are four: William Binney, formerly the NSA’s technical director for world geopolitical and military analysis and designer of many agency programs now in use; Kirk Wiebe, formerly a senior analyst at the NSA’s SIGINT Automation Research Center; Edward Loomis, formerly technical director in the NSA’s Office of Signal Processing; and Ray McGovern, an intelligence analyst for nearly three decades and formerly chief of the CIA’s Soviet Foreign Policy Branch. Most of these men have decades of experience in matters concerning Russian intelligence and the related technologies. This article reflects numerous interviews with all of them conducted in person, via Skype, or by telephone…”

    that credibility and the related conspiracy theory has been completely shredded by the through detective work done for the special counsel’s office by the feds’ pittsburg (and san francisco) cyber security centers. this work revealed the activities of russian GRU (military intelligence) sappers in infiltrating the democratic party computers, down to the names of some officers.

    – as for “… ‘you can’t prove that a single vote was changed” is a proven winner and a go-to pivot for team Trump since the beginning’…”, one certainly can make a convincing educated guess at the impact of russian manipulation of individual voters and its collective impact on the 2016 election’s outcome. katherine hall jamieson of the annenberg communications center at penn did just that as discussed here:

    https://www.newyorker.com/magazine/2018/10/01/how-russia-helped-to-swing-the-election-for-trump

    there is every reason to think the russians, using facebook’s psyche-manipulating capabilities, made trump the victor. all the more so when we now know that on aug 2, 2016 trump campaign chairman paul manafort gave trump internal polling data for the states of michigan, wisconsin, and pennsylvania specifically to the his russian co-worker konstantin kilimnik.

    “you can’t prove a single vote was changed” is a pointless truism, but one can make a very plausible group estimate, in the same general way one cannot know for sure what is taking place in plate tecthtonics that occurs miles beneath the earth’s surface, but one can make inferences that, taken together, form a reasonable explanation of that activity (theory) based on what is known from available earth-surface information.

    • orionATL says:

      adding from orion re:

      “… there is every reason to think the russians, using facebook’s psyche-manipulating capabilities, made trump the victor. all the more so when we now know that on aug 2, 2016 trump campaign chairman paul manafort gave trump internal polling data for the states of michigan, wisconsin, and pennsylvania specifically to the his russian co-worker konstantin kilimnik…”

      it occurs to me that kathetine h. jamieson may not have had available to her the information about trump’s campaign manager manifort handing over trump internal polling data on the three states key to trump’s victory to a russian operative when she wrote her book.

      on another tack, here is a brief review of jamieson’s book:

      https://www.kirkusreviews.com/book-reviews/kathleen-hall-jamieson/cyberwar/

    • Vicks says:

      You are correct on all counts.
      My “inside job” comment jumped past the road it took to get to it becoming a talking point for the right and I also oversimplified my “can’t prove one vote was changed” comment.
      I stand by the “changed” part of that comment. There is no proof that Russia tampered with or (literally) changed a vote, HOWEVER, I believe that Russia’s efforts to influence voters IS what got DJT elected.
      I know it’s anecdotal, but Bernie supporters were beyond pissed to learn how he was being treated by the DNC, how many do Bernie fans do you know that sucked it up and voted for Hillary after Russia spilled the beans?
      On another note, among other “inspirational messages” Russia pumped through social media, those fake videos of “immigrants” “rioting” in France got some of my own family members off the couch and voting for the first time in years.
      When they forwarded this crap to me my response was always “where do you find this stuff?”
      Most live on one side or the other of the Wisconsin/Illinois border and from what I have learned, I think they easily could have been among the “micro-targeted”
      Full disclosure: I have sworn I was adopted since I learned what the word adoption meant.

      • orionATL says:

        thanks. that was interesting and a fair rejoinder.

        as for this:

        “… I know it’s anecdotal, but Bernie supporters were beyond pissed to learn how he was being treated by the DNC, how many do Bernie fans do you know that sucked it up and voted for Hillary after Russia spilled the beans?…”

        i had read that about 1 out of 6 sanders supporters did not vote for clinton. i can’t find that figure now, but here is a wide-ranging article from a major voting study of around 50k voters that was available to academics in mid-2017:

        https://www.npr.org/2017/08/24/545812242/1-in-10-sanders-primary-voters-ended-up-supporting-trump-survey-finds

        this must be read carefully and read to the end, though. one salient point is that the sanders-to-trump voters tended to be older, more conservative, more white, and less racially sensitive out of the universe of sanders voters. that fits with the fact that the whiter a state was the better sanders did. i think the proper inference here is that the older people get the more conservative they get (or appear to be relative to their younger citizen peers).

        vox had an interview with the u. mass, amherst prof, brian shaffner, who sheparded the analysis the giant cooperative congresdional election study:

        https://www.vox.com/policy-and-politics/2017/8/24/16194086/bernie-trump-voters-study

        again, read to the end and read carefully lest you lead yourself astray :)

  10. Democritus says:

    Great article by Bret’s GW prof:

    https://www.esquire.com/news-politics/amp28829576/bret-stephens-bedbug-david-karpf-interview/

    “But here’s what still bothers me as this strange episode recedes from the news cycle: Bret Stephens seems to think that his social status should render him immune from criticism from people like me. I think that the rewards of his social status come with an understanding that lesser-known people will say mean things about him online.”

    Bret Stephens is the epitome of privilege. And a whiny lil bitch to boot.

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