The Proud Boys Have Already Been Used to Intimidate Those Holding Trump Accountable — and Bill Barr Has Protected Them

As a number of people have observed, in last night’s debate, Donald Trump not only refused to condemn white supremacist terrorists, but seemed to call on them to stand by to support him.

President Donald J. Trump: (42:10)
What do you want to call them? Give me a name, give me a name, go ahead who do you want me to condemn.

Chris Wallace: (42:14)
White supremacist and right-wing militia.

President Donald J. Trump: (42:18)
Proud Boys, stand back and stand by. But I’ll tell you what somebody’s got to do something about Antifa and the left because this is not a right wing problem this is a left wing.

He named the Proud Boys explicitly.

Today, I noted that the reason why Randy Credico took Roger Stone’s threats seriously — the reason the witness tampering charge merited the full enhancement — was because of Stone’s ties to the Proud Boys. Credico confirmed that by posting a picture of Stone with his gang.

In Stone’s sentencing hearing, Judge Amy Berman Jackson described how Credico told the grand jury he was worried about Stone’s gang.

I note, since the defense has informed me that I can consider this material, that that is not consistent with his grand jury testimony, which was closer in time to the actual threats, at which time he said he was hiding and wearing a disguise and not living at home because he was worried, if not about Trump, about his — about Stone, but about his friends. So, I think his level of concern may have changed over time.

It’s not just Credico. When ABJ held a hearing to consider a gag on Roger Stone, she first got him to explain how his associates — whom he first declined to identify but then, when pressed by prosecutor Jonathan Kravis, named Proud Boys members Jacob Engles and Enrique Tarrio — had been working with him on that post but he couldn’t really describe who had picked the image of Judge Jackson with the crosshairs on it.

Amy Berman Jackson. How was the image conveyed to you by the person who selected it?

Stone. It was emailed to me or text-messaged to me. I’m not certain.

Q. Who sent the email?

A. I would have to go back and look. I don’t recognize. I don’t know. Somebody else uses my —

THE COURT: How big is your staff, Mr. Stone?

THE DEFENDANT: I don’t have a staff, Your Honor. I have a few volunteers. I also — others use my phone, so I’m not the only one texting, because it is my account and, therefore, it’s registered to me. So I’m uncertain how I got the image. I think it is conceivable that it was selected on my phone. I believe that is the case, but I’m uncertain.

THE COURT: So individuals, whom you cannot identify, provide you with material to be posted on your personal Instagram account and you post it, even if you don’t know who it came from?

THE DEFENDANT: Everybody who works for me is a volunteer. My phone is used by numerous people because it can only be posted to the person to whom it is registered.


Jonathan Kravis. What are the names of the five or six volunteers that you’re referring to?

Stone. I would — Jacob Engles, Enrique Tarrio. I would have to go back and look

When she imposed a gag on Stone, she explained that his Instagram post amounted to incitement of others, people with extreme views and violent inclinations.

What concerns me is the fact that he chose to use his public platform, and chose to express himself in a manner that can incite others who may feel less constrained. The approach he chose posed a very real risk that others with extreme views and violent inclinations would be inflamed.


The defendant himself told me he had more than one to choose from. And so what he chose, particularly when paired with the sorts of incendiary comments included in the text, the comments that not only can lead to disrespect for the judiciary, but threats on the judiciary, the post had a more sinister message. As a man who, according to his own account, has made communication his forté, his raison d’être, his life’s work, Roger Stone fully understands the power of words and the power of symbols. And there’s nothing ambiguous about crosshairs.

Then, again at the sentencing hearing, ABJ talked about the risk that, “someone else, with even poorer judgment than he has, would act on his behalf.

Here, the defendant willfully engaged in behavior that a rational person would find to be inherently obstructive. It’s important to note that he didn’t just fire off a few intemperate emails. He used the tools of social media to achieve the broadest dissemination possible. It wasn’t accidental. He had a staff that helped him do it.

As the defendant emphasized in emails introduced into evidence in this case, using the new social media is his “sweet spot.” It’s his area of expertise. And even the letters submitted on his behalf by his friends emphasized that incendiary activity is precisely what he is specifically known for. He knew exactly what he was doing. And by choosing Instagram and Twitter as his platforms, he understood that he was multiplying the number of people who would hear his message.

By deliberately stoking public opinion against prosecution and the Court in this matter, he willfully increased the risk that someone else, with even poorer judgment than he has, would act on his behalf. This is intolerable to the administration of justice, and the Court cannot sit idly by, shrug its shoulder and say: Oh, that’s just Roger being Roger, or it wouldn’t have grounds to act the next time someone tries it.

Both Credico and ABJ, then, pointed to the white supremacist gang that Roger Stone hangs out with to explain why Roger Stone’s threats must be taken seriously.

And Bill Barr dismissed the seriousness of both those threats — the threats Roger Stone makes that might lead one of his associates to take violent action — when he undermined the sentencing recommendation on Stone.

Trump’s invocation of the Proud Boys is no idle threat. Because the Proud Boys have already been used to intimidate those holding Donald Trump accountable.

57 replies
  1. BobCon says:

    Trump jumped at helping Stone while dragging his feet on pardons for Flynn, Manafort and the rest.

    The other guys can’t coordinate with the gangs like Stone can. And Barr is going to do everything he can to keep the FBI tied up chasing fleas while the feral dogs are on the loose.

    • Hika says:

      I don’t know too much about this stuff but I am mindful of Putin and his “little green men” in Ukraine and other assorted supposedly inexplicable violence that has been very convenient to Putin’s interests. I remember reading Richard Holbrooke’s “To End a War” years ago and Milosevic’s vague description of “machinery” that gave him control at a distance (not-so-plausible deniability as it turned out) of Karadzic and his murderous Serbian militia groups. It appears that Roger Stone is a part of Trump’s “machinery” to make stuff happen, but Trump has just ruined the deniability part of it.
      “AlyoshaKaramazov” at DailyKos has noted that it was Biden who prompted Trump with the name of the Proud Boys when Trump was casting about for a name. I don’t think that was random.
      I guess we will one day hear something about how “interesting” Chris Wray’s job is just now.

      • Eureka says:

        I noticed how quietly Biden said it, and how Trump _immediately_ plucked it from the din. Agreed, that was some Biden savvy right there.

    • Mitch Neher says:

      I’d bet money that I don’t have that The FBI has at least one deep undercover agent planted with The Proud Boys.

      If not, then they probably wish that they did, now.

      I may be projecting with that last sentence.

      • e.a.f. says:

        The “proud boys” sure must be making Steve Miller happy. Would not be surprised if armed “proud boys” were at polling stations on election day. My expectations are that the election will be “ruined’ by these men. They do remind me of the brown shirts Hitler had. It is also interesting that this appears to be an all male organization. If Trump is re elected, and the proud boys are unleashed, things will not go well for women, Republican or Democrat.

  2. harpie says:

    THANK YOU, Marcy!
    This is a very critical conversation that
    we really NEED to have RIGHT NOW…actually it’s WAY past time.
    7:55 AM · Sep 30, 2020

    Thinking about the day in Aug 2015 when

    Trump was told a couple of men [TERRORISTS] had beaten a [TARGET] Latino man with a metal pole, then told the arresting cops they did it bc “Donald Trump was right,” and

    Trump’s response was to call his followers “very passionate people.” [link]

    The REFRAIN from our tweet thread is perfect:

    “why won’t Trump condemn terrorism.”

      • soothsayer says:

        Yep, you are correct Harpie, and he won’t ever. On top of that, it is not just domestic, it is global, and Russia uses these groups to their own ends. Which begs the question for me, is this another reason why Trump feels a connection to Russia and Putin. Not just financial debt entanglements, but also violent white nationalist ideology connections. I am being deadly serious, because this is a serious threat, being propagated globally. So two things to note: a) He won’t ever say anything bad about Putin and Russia b) He won’t ever say anything bad about violent White Nationalists. I assume I am preaching to the choir here, but they are both a recurring theme, intertwining thread, and therefore a related threat to our national security.

        See the below reporting, from this 2019 article:

        In testimony to a Congressional committee Mr Geltzer said: “This is not terrorism ‘domestic’ to any one nation alone. It is a global surge in violence inspired by white supremacy.

        “There is one additional driver of today’s threat that must be emphasised – the active role of foreign government actors in propagating violent white supremacist ideology.”

        He added: “The Russian government adds violent energy to the emerging transnational network of white supremacists, spreading its cause in part through disinformation aggressively disseminated online.”

        The “emerging epicentre” of white supremacist extremism is Russia and Ukraine, the committee was told.

        Ali Soufan, a former FBI supervisory special agent, said: “There are extensive ties between the Russian government and far-right groups in Europe.”

        He said Russian paramilitary groups in Ukraine were training foreign fighters “motivated by white supremacy and neo-Nazi beliefs.”

        Mr Soufan added: “Russian disinformation efforts have fueled anti-immigrant sentiment in countries like Sweden, fueling resentment among native-born Swedes.”

        Mr Geltzer said it was “outdated” to call attackers like the gunman in the recent mass shooting in El Paso Texas, “domestic” terrorists.

        • KathyS says:

          The “common denominator” between Trump supporting white supremacism and Russia is Alexander Dugin. Bannon has met with Dugin at least once in Rome, they have contacts and share common ideology, I have read this in a journalistic publication two years ago so I can’t remember exactly were and find it to post a link. But there is a lot of information in Wikipedia about Dugin, he is known as “the Russian mafia ideologist”, his father is an ex-officer from GRU. Here is a reliable publication about Dugin (I post for the first time a link in the comments so if I am doing it in the wrong way, the moderators are free to delete it or modify it, I beg for their help and their pardon)

          • MB says:

            Timothy Snyder covers Alexander Dugin’s influence fairly extensively in several chapters in his 2018 book, The Road to Unfreedom. I highly recommend the entire book, which shines a bright light on the historical significance and background to Putin’s “brand” of nationalism. It’s a “blood and soil” thing…

            • KathyS says:

              Dugin is the worst nightmare a decent person can have and his “vision” of “a new world order” is a semi-feudal Russian empire with slavery at least on the territory of the ex-Socialist countries & SSSR behind the Berlin Wall, a deeply misogynistic, anti-LGBT, anti-minorities dictatorship. This publication in Chicago Tribune links Turkey, Dugin, Russia, Bannon, Trump, Syria, Ukraine and the far-right groups in Europe.

              • soothsayer says:

                Thank you both, for reminding me of this character, and I have actually read of him before, from Western aligned individuals reporting of him and his impact in current events. But yes, I had actually forgotten of him in my previous comment, so thank you again. That Bannon had aligned with him, is no surprise. They are both extremists really. I think, the reality is, extremists can be found across the spectrum, and it is important for people who monitor these things, to see where any of these things become a) harmful in their speech towards certain groups b) but especially moreso when they become violent in their views. His views would fit this. As an analyst, and just generally using historical characters and events, plus network theory, he is obviously not the only character or inflection point, but he is an affecting figure in many of the current threads. I feel this could become a deeper discussion, but alas, I would not want to take away from EWs main thread. Thank you both for your follow up commentary, I appreciate your thoughts.

      • soothsayer says:

        Hm, weird. After reading what ex DHS Deputy CoS Elizabeth Neumann stated about the Proud Boys:

        “In reality, the Proud Boys bear many of the hallmarks of a gang…and its members have taken part in multiple acts of brutal violence and intimidation…many members have criminal records for violent behavior and the organization actively pursues violence against their perceived enemies…
        …After several years of forging alliances with members of the Republican political establishment, the Proud Boys have carved out a niche for themselves as both a right-wing fight club and a volunteer security force for the GOP”

        They sound, beyond being a White Nationalist aligned group, almost like a criminal Hells Angels type Biker club, used for enforcement and violent ends. Which, ironically, reminds me of Putins “Night Wolves”. Hm, this is even more concerning to me now.

      • e.a.f. says:

        he won’t condemn terrorists because he is a wanna be terrorist. He is one of those guys who can’t “engage” in anything violent because he is afraid he’ll get hurt. He will however, egg on those who do engage in violence. He likes it. He wants them to like him.

    • drouse says:

      From what I’ve read about these yahoos, they are literal poster children for toxic masculinity. They look to me like very dangerous offshoots of the incel-men going their own way movement. The beliefs that they share amoungst themselves are at the same time farcical and twisted. Go here if you care to read about their antics.

      • e.a.f. says:

        Interesting you refer to the incel group, because yesterday I noticed a couple of pictures, including a march the “proud boys” were in and what struck me was how un attractive and disgusting they looked. The thought which flashed through my mind was, at least we won’t have to worry about them re producing.

        Not all humans are “attractive” physically but are wonderful people and are attractive in other ways and you notice it in their eyes, their faces, their body language, but the “proud boys”, they are butt ugly. some of them, their faces are twisted with hate. Unlike other racist organizations I haven’t seen females involved in the “proud boys”. thank you for the reference to the article.

      • e.a.f. says:

        Read some of the “we hunted the mammoth”. explained a lot. In Canada we had an incident where an incel drove a vehicle into people, killing many. His complaint, he was forced to not have sex by unwilling women. Up until reading the blog, I didn’t understand this was about not having sex as a male teenager. omg, these men are crazy. I thought incels were men who were too cheap to pay for a sex trade worker. Now I understand. It explains why Roger Stone looks so creepy also, he’s with the proudless boys. that name says it all, boys. they are not men, regardless of age. If it weren’t that some of these incels have committed such serious crimes and advocate sex with minors, they’d be just plain funny. of course these days, one could say having sex can be dangerous. We have COVID. going outside your bubble can get you if not very ill, very dead.

    • harpie says:

      Speaking of Parscale, Marcy just retweeted this:

      The Trump Campaign Is Quietly Disappearing Brad Parscale From Their Website
      Former Trump campaign manager Brad Parscale was detained by police last week after his wife reported that he was planning to harm himself.
      Sep. 30, 2020 11:56AM

      Not until the fifth pargraph :

      […] According to the police report, Parscale’s wife called authorities to report that he was threatening to commit suicide, had loaded a firearm in front of her, and had physically assaulted her during a prior domestic dispute. […]

      • harpie says:

        Before the above quote:

        […] Since Tuesday, the campaign has removed a video of Parscale from the homepage of its “Army for Trump” election monitoring [now there’s a euphemism for you!] operation. […]

        • Rugger9 says:

          It has been bounced around the net that Parscale is seen by the DJT campaign as a significant threat because of what he knows as well as his background (backdoors, anyone?). I would also expect Parscale to be less than agreeable to the insults heaped on him by the campaign between the verbal abuse after Tulsa and the demotion behind Stepien (we still don’t know who is paying Bill, either).

          But, to keep Brad Parscale muzzled means he had to be confined, and the psychiatric hold would also have the twin benefits of restrictions on journalist access and a ready excuse for anything Brad says. Watch this case, I don’t think it was completely coincidental.

  3. Rugger9 says:

    I’m not sure if Chris Wallace knew how close the Proud Boys were to DJT’s minions although I would suspect at the end of things we’ll find out that AG Barr tacitly stood down (at least) to let the PBs loose to create the havoc Barr needs to crack down. It was serendipitous to choose that name and not someone like the KKK or Christian Identity, because there is no question of links to DJT’s campaign.

    • Hika says:

      “AlyoshaKaramazov” @ DailyKos suggests that it was Biden who prompted Trump with the name of the Proud Boys, rather than Wallace. Perhaps not so serendipitous, and maybe done with real intel. of the links involved.

  4. harpie says:

    Published a half hour ago, from JJ MacNab:

    Police arrest far-right protester who pointed gun at Portland rally
    Conrad Wilson (OPB) Sept. 30, 2020 11:27 a.m.

    Portland Police have arrested a far-right protester [?????] and [ARMED GANG MEMBER] member of the Proud Boys who pointed a gun at antifascist protesters on Aug. 22 [MORE THAN A MONTH AGO] in downtown Portland.

    Alan James Swinney, 50, is being held in the Multnomah County Jail on multiple assault charges, pointing a firearm at another, unlawful use of a weapon and unlawful use of tear gas.

    • harpie says:


      Swinney had originally claimed police had cleared him of any wrongdoing related to the violent street brawl that took place at that protest.

      Jail records show police booked Swinney the morning after President Trump told the Proud Boys — a designated hate group that regularly engages in street violence — to “stand by” after he was asked to denounce white supremacists and violent extremists at Tuesday night’s presidential debate.

      So I guess it’s not just Antifa and the left as TRUMP asserted:

      TRUMP: Proud Boys, stand back and stand by.
      But I’ll tell you what, somebody’s got to do something about Antifa and the left.

      • Molly Pitcher says:

        Just remember that the Sheriff of Multnomah called out Trump for lying that he supported Trump, yesterday in a tweet. Maybe he is going for a little payback for sullying his name

        • readerOfTeaLeaves says:

          This would make sense if the threat level assessment was elevated as a result of Trump’s conduct, coming on top of Stone’s previous threat of a federal judge.

          I doubt the Sheriff’s department engages in ‘payback’; keep in mind that they’ve had one hell of a month given the wildfire threats, evacuations, stressed communities, and fire/smoke damage. They must view the PB as a potentially serious threat to take this step.

    • Pajaro says:

      Despite Operation Legend in Portland, Proud boys brought a mobile armory to Portland for the Sept. 26 rally. Journalist photographed people coming and going with guns. Likely multiple federal firearm felonies happening with that RV armory. One of OL’s stated goals is firearm traffic. Was this no action on order from Billy Barr?

  5. RMD says:

    Thank you, Marcy and contributing posters….
    this is a vitally needed counterpoint to Trump and Republican talking points about “the left” being the locus of domestic terror.
    In fact, the FBI reports that white supremacists and right-wing extremists account for the majority of violent actions, domestically

    FBI Director Christopher Wray told Congress on Tuesday that the agency has seen an increase in the number of domestic terror arrests this fiscal year, a majority of which have been motivated by white supremacy.

    Wray told the Senate Judiciary Committee that the FBI has recorded about 100 domestic terrorism arrests in the last nine months. “A majority of the domestic terrorism cases we’ve investigated are motivated by some version of what you might call white supremacist violence,” he told the panel.Wray said the number of the domestic terrorism arrests has increased and is now close to the number of international terrorism arrests the bureau has made.

    Wray’s testimony followed a House Homeland Security Committee hearing in May, where FBI counterterrorism chief Michael McGarrity testified that the bureau was investigating 850 potential domestic terrorism cases. McGarrity said that nearly half of the cases involved racially motivated extremists, most of whom were white supremacists. link:

        • Hika says:

          It’s a much misquoted thing.
          It isn’t, “Pride comes before a fall,” as most would have it.
          It is, “Pride goeth before destruction, and an haughty spirit before a fall.”

          • Tom says:

            Ditto with: “The proof of the pudding” or “The proof is in the pudding” when the actual saying is: “The proof of the pudding is in the eating.” Or: “You can’t have your cake and eat it too.” Original proverb goes: “You can’t eat your cake and have it too.”

  6. Savage Librarian says:

    Remember when:

    “Matt Gaetz defends a Central Florida Proud Boy who was banned from Twitter for Islamophobic post”- 2/26/19
    “According to the Miami New Times, last week in a Washington, D.C. courtroom, Stone named Engels and three other Proud Boy members – Tyler Ziolkowski, AKA Tyler Whyte, and Enrique Tarrio and Ray Perez – as “volunteers” who have access to his phone and his social media accounts.”

  7. Chris.EL says:

    per Marcy,

    “It’s unclear who altered it. But ENTIRE ATTACK was based off adding a false date to some Peter Strzok notes.”

    Don’t know if Strzok’s notes could be construed as official government documents, suppose they are govt. work product; isn’t altering a crime??

    Lateral thought I’m curious about: has former FBI director Comey ever published his Valentine’s day loyalty memos?


    I’d like to see those!

    • vvv says:

      Comey is testifying live right now before the CoJ. As I type, Kennedy is asking how many books he sold, and he (Comey) announces he has another book coming out in January.

      • Jenny says:

        “I appreciated Comey’s candor, he was forthcoming. He wasn’t apologetic.”
        – Louisiana Sen. John Kennedy on CNN 3 years ago.

  8. Savage Librarian says:

    And remember this, too? Looking at the photo in Marcy’s post with Stone and the Proud Boys, I wonder if one of them is Joel Greenberg:

    “It was only a matter of time before Roger Stone was arrested”| Blogs

    “Besides living in South Florida, Stone has quite a few local connections. The Trump affiliate is close with Congressman Matt Gaetz (who he’s interviewed on Alex Jones’ conspiracy theory show, InfoWars), as well as Seminole County Tax Collector Joel Greenberg, as seen in a Facebook post from 2017. “

    “Stone has also worked with Orlando attorney John Morgan on medical marijuana reform, and is closely tied to the Florida chapter of the Proud Boys, which the Southern Poverty Law Center lists as an “SPLC designated hate group” and an “extremist group with an ideology of general hate.” “

    Joel Greenberg (of Islamaphobia notoriety, and friend of Roger Stone and Matt Gaetz) was the Tax Collector of Seminole County, Florida. 

    This might be something to be concerned about:

    “Tax Collector [Joel Greenberg] Hires Blockchain Director [Samuel Armes, 22] in Florida County”

  9. klynn says:

    Can we talk about what may be keeping Lindsey G. from addressing J. McCain’s dossier connection and the hand off advice given to John?

  10. harpie says:

    The Proud Boys Got A Bunch Of New Followers After Trump Said To “Stand By”
    Hundreds of new people have flooded the forums the white nationalist group uses to organize.
    September 30, 2020, at 5:47 p.m. ET

    […] One of the channels showed over 600 new members in the last 24 hours, while another one showed roughly 700. BuzzFeed News is choosing not to name the networks on which the group organizes to avoid driving traffic to them. […]

    • readerOfTeaLeaves says:

      Well, according to Forbes, Biden’s campaign raised $10,000,000 between 9 pm and midnight on 9/30. IOW, over 200,000 people went to a single website and donated record breaking sums of money.

      In addition to record requests for mail-in ballots, it’s one more sign that a whole lot of people are fed up with the PB shenanigans. It sure seems all the money was a response to people’s reaction to watching Trump melt down in the ‘debate’. His dog whistle to the PB appears to have generated additional revenue for the Dems.

  11. clairence says:

    Trump loves the Proud Boys and any other hate group that loves him.
    But Trump didn’t just blurt out “Proud Boys”. Biden named them and Trump responded.

  12. harpie says:

    8:00 PM · Sep 30, 2020

    Yesterday [September 29] as Trump refused to condemn far-right violence, the FBI quietly issued a warning about the threat of far-right extremists, per intel report leaked to me.

    It identifies the period between presidential election and inauguration as a “flashpoint”

    If you’re federal law enforcement, please text me at 202-510-1268 (use Signal). I know you guys are a lot more worried about the election than you’re able to say publicly. Reach out to me, you can remain anonymous. [screenshots of FBI warning]

    Top of document:

    Unclassified/Law Enforcement Sensitive
    Federal Bureau of Investigation External Intelligence Note

    (U//LES) Boogaloo Adherents Likely Increasing Anti-Government Violent Rhetoric and Activities, Increasing Domestic Violent Extremist Threat in the FBI Dallas Area of Responsibility […]

  13. harpie says:

    Kathleen Belew Retweeted:
    7:54 AM · Sep 30, 2020

    Don’t listen to Trump: private militia activity is against the law in all 50 states.

    Find out what to do if you see them near a polling place or voter registration drive in your state, using our @GeorgetownICAP state fact sheets: [link]

    Links to:
    State Fact Sheets

    ICAP has created fact sheets for all 50 states explaining the laws barring unauthorized private militia groups and what to do if groups of armed individuals are near a polling place or voter registration drive. Select a state from the menu below to view the corresponding fact sheet.

  14. Tom says:

    I, too, thought it was interesting that Biden was ready to prompt Trump with the name “Proud Boys” at the appropriate moment in the debate. It would have been way worse if Biden had tried to snap Trump out of his spewing invective by saying, “Hey, Donald, why don’t you pass the time by playing a little solitaire.”

    I’ve been thinking about the international implications of election night. If Trump declares victory on the evening of November 3rd, what do foreign leaders do, assuming Biden doesn’t concede? Trump will naturally expect calls of congratulation from foreign capitals, but if–or more likely when–they fail to arrive, is he going to accept the explanations of other heads of state that: “Sorry, Donald, we’re with the Democrats on this one. We’re going to wait for all the votes to be counted. We don’t want to be on the record as supporting a President whose claim to a second term may well turn out to be illegitimate.” Will Trump thus find himself isolated on the international stage? (Though that’s hard to do with a US President.)

    If I were Putin, I’d make sure to offer Trump my congratulations on his victory as soon as possible after the election, even if Biden hasn’t conceded and the votes aren’t all counted. I’d then want to see reporters asking GOP Congresspeople if they wish to join their good ol’ Russki pal, Vladimir Putin, in raising a glass of vodka to toast President Trump’s second term. Or would they prefer to piss off the President by waiting until all the votes are counted?

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