The State of the Five Now-Intersecting January 6 Militia Conspiracies

Paragraph 64 of a new conspiracy indictment including Proud Boys Ethan Nordean, Joe Biggs, and the newly arrested Proud Boys Zachary Rehl and Charles Donohoe includes a seemingly gratuitous reference to the Oath Keepers. The paragraph describes how Biggs, after having entered the Capitol once already from the northwest side, then moved to the opposite side of the building and forced his way in on the east side. He did so right in front of a group of Oath Keepers.

Thirty minutes after first entering the Capitol on the west side, BIGGS and two other members of the Proud boys, among others, forcibly re-entered the Capitol through the Columbus Doors on the east side of the Capitol, pushing past at least one law enforcement officer and entering the Capitol directly in front of a group of individuals affiliated with the Oath Keepers.

This would have been around 2:44 PM. The Oath Keeper “stack” went in the east side of the Capitol at around 2:40.

That reference, along with the common use of the Zello application, brings two parallel conspiracies laid out over a month ago closer together, arguably intersecting. As of right now, DOJ has charged 25 people in five different conspiracy indictments, four of which share precisely the same goal: to stop, delay, and hinder Congress’s certification of the Electoral College vote, with many similar means and methods. Three conspiracy indictments also share roughly the same goal of obstructing law enforcement. Those indictments are:

Here’s what a simplified version of the five different conspiracies looks like:

This is not the end of it: there are three Oath Keepers not included in that conspiracy, and a random bunch of Proud Boys who might eventually be included, as well as anyone else who coordinated this effort [wink]. But these conspiracy indictments will remain separate only for prosecutorial ease. They are, for all intents and purposes, now-intersecting conspiracies.

Update: Last night, NYT’s visual team released new videos showing that the Oath Keepers Stack was involved in forcing entry into the East entrance of the Capitol. These videos depict what happened moments after Biggs reentered the Capitol, as described above.

Update: To see how the other pieces of any coordinated action fit, I will list the other Oath Keepers and Proud Boys that have played a part in this operation.

Oath Keepers

Stewart Rhodes: The Oath Keeper President. He is not charged, but implicated in the existing Oath Keepers indictment and the Minuta complaint.

Roberto Minuta: Minuta was arrested on March 8. An SDNY Magistrate judge released him on bail (he almost put up silver bars for his security, but ended up coming up with the money itself), ignoring the government request he stay the order. Minuta’s arrest affidavit–which was written 12 days before James’ but executed roughly the same day–focuses primarily on Minuta’s harassment of cops. It doesn’t mention, as James’ affidavit does, Minuta’s role in providing security, including for Roger Stone. Minuta also deleted his Facebook account on January 13, for which he was charged with obstruction.

Joshua James: James was arrested on March 9 and held without bail (in part because of a past arrest associated with claiming to be a military police officer in 2011). His arrest affidavit makes it clear he was a close contact with Minuta as well as Kelly Meggs. The affidavit repeatedly describes James offering security to VIPs we know to include Roger Stone. According to public reporting, James received payment for his “security” services on January 6, which Stone was publicly fundraising for in advance (then denied spending).

Jon Ryan Schaffer: The front man for the heavy metal band Iced Earth and an Oath Keeper lifetime member, Schaffer was arrested for spraying some police with bear spray. But two months after his arrest and detention, he has not been (publicly) indicted and only arrived in DC on March 17. The government has not publicly responded to his motion to dismiss his case on Speedy Trial grounds. All of which suggests there’s something more there that we can’t see.

Person Four: The James affidavit refers to Minuta as “Person Five.” It uses that number, it says, because “Persons Two [Caldwell’s spouse], Three [the NC-based Oath Keeper who might serve as a Quick Reaction Force], and Four are not included in this affidavit, but are already-numbered individuals associated with United States v. Thomas Caldwell, et al, Case No. 21-cr-28 (APM). To maintain consistent nomenclature, the referenced individual here will be defined as ‘Person Five.'” I haven’t been able to find the reference to Person Four (though it might be Watkins’ partner, references to whom are inconsistent).

Three more Stack participants and four others who operated with Minuta and James on January 6: This image, from James’ complaint, identifies three other Stack members (the second, third, and last yellow arrow) and four others who interacted with James and Minuta during the day on January 6.

Proud Boys

Enrique Tarrio: Tarrio is the head of the Proud Boys, but got arrested as he entered DC on January 4 on charges relating to vandalizing a Black church in December, onto which possession charges were added. He is referred to in all the Proud Boy conspiracies, repeatedly in the Leader one (because they scrambled to figure out what to do after his arrest). While it’s unlikely he was on the Telegram channels used to organize the insurrection, he was in touch with members via other, thus far unidentified channels.

Joshua Pruitt: Pruitt was arrested for a curfew violation on the night of the insurrection. He told the FBI he hadn’t engaged in any unlawful activity and was just trying to deescalate the situation. But he was indicted on his own weeks later for obstructing the vote count and interfering with cops, and abetting the destruction of property, along with trespassing. The Nordean conspiracy indictment notes that he went in the West entrance shortly after Dominic Pezzola breached it (suggesting the government may now know he was part of a cell with Pezzola). Pruitt is being prosecuted by the same prosecutor as on most Proud Boy cases, Christopher Berridge, and before the same judge, Timothy Kelly.

Gabriel Garcia: Garcia, a former Army Captain, appears to have originally been identified by the Facebook order showing who livestreamed from the Capitol. It’s possible his livestreams were intended to serve as live reporting for those coordinating outside (he catches the names of cops, the size of the crowd, and instructs, “keep ’em coming.” He incites a big push through a line of cops. Later, he calls for “Nancy” to “come out and play” and calls to “Free Enrique” [Tarrio]. He was charged by complaint on January 16 and by indictment on February 16 with obstruction and resisting cops during civil disorder. The Nordean conspiracy indictment notes he went in the West entrance shortly after Pezzola breached it.

Christopher Worrell: The government originally charged Worrell, a committed Proud Boy who traveled to DC in vans of Proud Boys paid for by someone else and wore comms equipment, with trespass crimes on March 10. Among his criminal background, he pretended to be a cop to intimidate a woman. He lied in his first interview with the FBI, hiding that he sprayed pepper spray on some police who were the last line of defense on the West side of the Capitol. According to a witness who knows him, he also directed other likely Proud Boys. After first being released, he was subsequently detained and is awaiting indictment on what the government suggests are likely to be assault charges.

Robert Gieswein: Ethan Nordean spoke to Giswein shortly before he and Pezzola launched the attack on the Capitol suggesting that Gieswein, who had known ties to the 3% movement, was coordinating with the Proud Boys that day. Over the course of breaking into the Capitol, he allegedly assaulted 3 cops with a bat or pepper spray, and broke a window to break in. He was first charged on January 16, indicted on January 27. His docket shows none of the normal proceedings, such as a protective order, but his magistrate’s docket shows two sealed documents placed there in recent weeks.

Ryan Samsel: There’s no indication I know of that ties Samsel to the Proud Boys. But he marched with them and initiated the assault on the West side of the Capitol with Dominic Pezzola and William Pepe. He was charged with assault and obstruction on January 29 and arrested on February 3. In his case, he allegedly did so by assaulting a cop at the first line of barriers, knocking her out. He and the government are in talks for a guilty plea.

Ryan Bennett: Bennett was IDed off his own Facebook livestreaming, while wearing a Proud Boys hat, of the event, including his direct witness to the shooting of Ashli Bennett, with his voice yelling “Break it down!” in the background. He was arrested on January 26 and charged in a still-sealed March 17 indictment over which James Boasberg will preside.

Bryan Betancur: Betancur was busted by his Maryland Probation Officer, to whom he had lied about distributing Bibles to get permission to go to DC. He wore a Proud Boys shirt to the insurrection and is a known white supremacist who espouses violence. He was charged with misdemeanor trespass charges. His defense attorney is already discussing a guilty plea.

Daniel Goodwyn: Goodwyn’s online identity is closely associated with the Proud Boys. He was identified via an interview he did with Baked Alaska during the insurrection and texts sent to an associate; he was arrested on January 29. He was originally charged with trespass, with obstruction added in his indictment on February 24. Charles Berridge was originally the prosecutor on this case but has been replaced on it.

Christopher Kelly: Kelly revealed on Facebook before he headed to DC that he would be going with, “ex NYPD and some proud boys.” While inside, he bragged that they had “stopped the hearing, they are all headed to the basement.” He was originally charged with trespass and obstruction on January 20; he has yet to be (publicly) indicted yet. He has the same defense attorney, Edward McMahon, as Nicholas Ochs.

Around 40 other people who used the Proud Boys “Boots on the Ground” Telegram channel: As I noted here, the government must have at least monikers for — and likely email and/or device identifiers — for around 40 people who used the organizing channel set up less than a day before the operation. It will be interesting to see if they attempt to track all of them down.

Rolling Updates:

Marc Bru, a Proud Boy with ties to Nordean, was charged on March 9.

Paul Rae, a Proud Boy from Florida who trailed Biggs both times he entered the Capitol.

Arthur Jackman: a Proud Boy from Florida who trailed Biggs both times he entered the Capitol, including into the Senate.


61 replies
    • harpie says:

      Both OK Rhodes [2:14 PM] and PB Donohoe [3:38 PM] talk about REGROUPING.

      Government uses a phrase similar to “as some rioters were leaving the Capitol” about PB’s at 3:38 PM and about OK’s at 4:00 PM.

      …just found that interesting.

        • Lawnboy says:

          Dr. Wheeler.
          My spider senses are on alert right now. When a W1 says ” Ya, I worked with him in Iraq” , what unit were they in, US Army? Or were they contractors working for Blackwater? Could Eric P have contracted the Jan6/21 gig?

          All this talk of stack, comms, battle rattle; all highly technical jargon make me think at best perhaps weekend wannabes , men missing the action or , at worst, are they the real deal?

          Thanks to all contributing persons for the great work at the wheel.

          p.s Both Parents vac’d , 90 and 93 , what a relief that is.

        • skua says:

          Any hypothesised “mission to storm into the Capitol” would need to be consistent with observed; the building not being torched/exploded/contaminated to prevent its use for weeks, the absence of insurgent gunfire and bombs, and insurgents not having secured and defended for a day any critical locations in the building.
          So far the known plotting by OKs, PBs and 3%s looks like prep for a big riot outside the Capitol.
          And then they found the drawbridge was down … .
          If they’d known the drawbridge was going to be down, is it likely they would have been so non-destructive/ineffective at stopping the vote inside the Capitol?
          It would be a hypothetical mastermind of dirty-tricks who would arrange for a mob of outraged and violent (but poorly equipped for destruction) insurrectionists to arrive at the Capitol just when the mastermind also has arranged for the drawbridge to be down. Surely much televised carnage would have been a reasonable expectation?
          But this is way beyond any direct evidence so far.

        • skua says:

          Dr Emptywheel’s latest, “The Three Key Details the Proud Boy Unindicted Co-Conspirator Likely Revealed to Prosecutors”, has the PBs planning to break into the Capitol according to the government.
          That seems quite a step from planning to riot outside.

        • Eureka says:

          Yes, exactly. And from Alex Jones’ and others’ rhetoric (and Jones, Ali Alexander, et al.’s triumphant takeover of the Georgia State Capitol in November: propaganda dress-rehearsal), I think they imagined that Trump would be rolling up into the Capitol all Trump-like, hands raised palms-up as he does (“See, see?”) when he tells an audience he’s “winning.”

          Fever dreams have context, too.

        • skua says:

          Yes and the path they took to overturning was to attempt to delay the certification of the electoral votes.
          Destroying the building would seem to be a good way to delay.
          But as Eureka points out the PBs et al seem instead to have been relying on Trump to intervene after the Capitol was taken. Was this belief promoted by Trump in public? Were they supported in this belief by statements made in private by Trump’s inner circle? Did this inner circle arrange for the drawbridge to be down? Lots of unanswered questions.

        • Eureka says:

          And then you have OK leader Rhodes* bitching early on that Trump wasn’t doing anything so they had to take it into their own hands, i.e. lots of people stirred up by a lot of shit stirrers at multiple scales, each wanting the other to go big first in exercising their respective powers (or “powers”).

          You go first.

          No, YOU go!

          HELL YEAH I’LL GO!

          Apparently Rhodes et al. weren’t aware of Trump’s long history of NOT “leading”, instead having underlings do his dirty work. Of course they needn’t have read decades of coverage — or even Mueller-era “fake news” — to learn that, just listened to the collection of his comments about military service(members). Trump “always wanted” a Purple Heart for never having served, FFS. Not being good at math, Trump wouldn’t realize that such was an award for “suckers” and “losers” in his parlance.

          *harpie has that quote here — which is a pretty shrewd one that both elides and recapitulates (the passivity) Rhodes’ own role in the shit-stirring:

        • FL Resister says:

          I recall last summer when protecting federal buildings was a high priority for the Trump Administration. And while Capitol Building was damaged by the people who Trump said he loved as things were playing out on Jan 6th, there was zero concern shown by the Trump Administration for the safety of the legislators inside.
          Has any one confirmed it was in fact Mike Pence who got the order through to call in the National Guard, finally?

          I’m sorry to bring this up, but wouldn’t it be something if any of the nonnamed border officers that showed up in DC and Portland also stormed the Capitol?

        • subtropolis says:

          I don’t believe that Prince was involved. At least, not in providing the “troops” that day. All three groups — OK, PB, 3% — were already organized and motivated. I do think that there was some common link between them, though. Unfortunately, that may be difficult to pin down. But none of it, thus far, seems like something that Prince would be involved with.

      • madwand says:

        The 4pm pause with a group around Rhodes in the action is the one I find interesting, it lasted for ten minutes and was followed by Trumps “time to go home message”. Waiting for something, a communication from “someone” perhaps, or a realization that they could not accomplish anything further and it had to be called off as it was.

        • subtropolis says:

          Agreed. It appears that they knew that something was in the works. Which, if true, suggests that someone was in communication with both the White House and the PBs. (Roger Stone and Jason Miller come to mind.) If they were smart, they were passing information via tweet or the like, rather than direct comms.

  1. Zinsky says:

    Was it the Oathkeepers who were talking about “schlepping the weps”? Was it also that group that boasted of having a “quick response force” to counter Capitol police resistance? That sure seems like clear indications of advance planning of seditious activity and intent to transport illegal weapons across state lines. Given many of the insurrectionists had criminal records, felons plotting to cross state lines to commit crimes using firearms would surely buy a ticket to a long prison sentence.


    The missing piece that the FBI may have or may be getting is how to the two communication nets actually connected.

    It appears they used two different communications systems, so there is no direct connection.

    But, if they used a Joint Task Force concept, they would have put a Pround Boys net controller and an Oath Keepers net controller in the same hotel room. By being co-located, messages from one net could be transferred to a second net via verbal relay.

    The question is, how did Biggs, two other Proud Boys, and maybe others manage to rendezvous with the Oath Keepers stack on the other side of the Capitol at almost the same time? Coincidence? Dumb luck? Or, two net controllers coordinating the movement of two elements of the task force?

    I do not know the answer. But, I think that may be a very important element to the conspiracy.

    • PeterS says:

      “By being co-located, messages from one net could be transferred to a second net via verbal relay.”

      You mean they met and talked to each other?

      • skua says:

        “met and talked with each other” does not well describe two people meeting in a previously arranged place that is suitable for them to pass messages in real time between the communication networks of two insurrectionist organisations.

        As far as I know, there is no direct evidence that this happened.

        I get that you want to stop people here over-reaching way past the available evidence. I think this is a good project and hope you continue with it. If people can’t come up with well based reasons why a specific “take” you offer is not useful then they should be considering their thinking and language more carefully.

        • PeterS says:

          I don’t understand quite what you are saying (thank you if it was approving!). My admittedly small point was about language not over-reaching. The sentence I quoted followed one which already “put” two relevant people in the same place.

        • skua says:

          The braking effects of some of your comments are, like bmas’ cautions, beneficial in these fraught and overly emotional times.

  3. TooLoose LeTruck says:

    I have to say, I’m not the least bit surprised to hear any of this…

    And please be able to tie Roger Stone to this vast, sweeping mess convincingly…


  4. harpie says:

    Here’s a photo of RHODES by Ford Fischer. [He did not post it in real time]
    9:58 PM · Jan 6, 2021

    Stewart Rhodes – leader of the Oath Keepers militia group which had several men present at the Capitol siege – speaks with his guys on the east side of the capitol.

    Is it interesting that he’s holding two phones?

    Fischer has some more photos from the EAST side of the Capitol here:

    The first one shows someone giving a Three-Percenters salute.
    Another features a small [but plenty SHARP] PITCHFORK serving as a pole for an American flag.

    I think these two photos are some of the most evocative I’ve seen.

  5. Eureka says:

    [This is a comment where I share my regret at/and what I can’t quite share with you, but maybe some here remember…]

    A Pulitzer-worthy photo was taken at a November, 2018, rally of various (alt-) right-wing groups and counter protesters on Independence Mall, in front of the old Pennsylvania State House (Independence Hall) where various of our founding documents, including the Declaration of Independence and the Constitution, were debated and signed. I call it Four Horsemen Overlooking the Apocalypse for the four mounted police officers in foreground, watching the whole thing. So compelling was that photo of the “We the People” rally that I mentioned it here twice back then: upon its occurrence and IIRC on Marcy’s ~ 2019 New Year’s post about how to move forward as a nation with the GOP as it were. Something about it captured all that we were going through then and evoked what would (and may yet will) come to pass. It marked a shift, presaged a start.

    One of the organizers of that rally was the recently indicted Rehl. Looking to relocate the photo upon his arrest, I discovered it was gone — the photo gallery since removed from the article — and the photographer/journalist hasn’t posted anything on twitter since 2019.

    A memory jog, if you saw it back then.

    Several photos down at a different gallery, there’s a photo from waywayway back farther than the original [standing officers behind a barricade overlooking an expanse of grass, then officers in front of another barricade (the horsemen were here), then the hundreds on the Mall in the distance]:

  6. harpie says:

    Christiaan Triebert [NYT] has some new VIDEO footage of the Oath Keeper “stack” once it got into the CAPITOL:
    6:01 PM · Mar 19, 2021

    Jessica Watkins was charged with conspiracy for her role in the Capitol attack, alongside other Oath Keepers in military-style garb. New footage shows Watkins (and others linked to the group) pushing against riot police on Jan. 6, contradicting claims by her defense counsel. [VIDEO] […]

    He includes a screenshot of surveillance video from [Triebert says 2:45 PM] 2:41 PM in which these OATH KEEPERS are tagged: Kenneth Harrelson, Kelly Meggs, Connie Meggs, Sandra Parker, Laura Steele, Donovan Crowl, Jessica Watkins Graydon Young.
    Triebert says the photo is from 2:45 PM, but doesn’t that say 2:41 PM?

    It could be that BIGGS and other PROUD BOYS are visible in this shot, since they entered “just before” the “stack”.

    • emptywheel says:

      Yup. I nudged him, among others, to find a clip with Biggs in it. But that’s what the Biggs reference is surely pointing to: a second forcible entry.

      • harpie says:

        I see one checked shirt, in the still photo. That person has a tan baseball cap on. He [I think it’s a guy] is at the right hand edge of the photo, a little above center, just behind the partially furled American flag.
        Also, the clothing on the person to his right looks familiar in a way.

        • Eureka says:

          That plaid shirt guy in the photo w tan cap is not Biggs. But I think I did find him in the video, see below — consistent w/him anyway.

        • Eureka says:

          Thanks, harpie — same here. I reviewed some at ProPublica and while not locating Biggs I did discover an explanation for the TIME “discrepancy” in Triebert’s tweets — it’s a misunderstanding from how he wrote it.

          Triebert is saying that the push against police happened ca 2:45 PM (referring to above tweets), then [changing topics] to the surveillance photo of _entry_ stamped 2:41 PM to support his point that this encounter happened within ~ 5 minutes of their forcing entry.

          FYI the full Parler video at ProPublica which Triebert excerpts briefly here (Watkins: Push Push Push is here:

          if someone wants to take a closer look for Biggs there.

          It’s titled ” 2:44 PM Inside the Capitol ” in the ProP stream and at approx. 2:33 length (of nearly 3 minutes) when Watkins’ helmet appears.

    • Eureka says:

      Is that Biggs partly visible on the far right at :22 [after they do the block-out ID of Crowl]

      Is this video available on youtube, where the playback speed can be slowed?

      • Eureka says:

        The person I’m referring to starts to be visible in flashes at :20, ahead of/ ‘underneath’ that furling flag. Same color cap and colors in plaid shirt as Biggs was wearing.

        ETA: now seeing harpie’s comment — I am referring to a different furling flag, the stack crammed in the hallway in the video.

      • Eureka says:

        Scratch that, because without being able to slow it without blurring I can’t be sure that the cap goes with the plaid in that video — the person is only quickly visible, blocked by that KAG flag and a large camera held aloft (plus the guy slips into the space to the right).

        Plus if people are staying in roughly the same relationships — def not a given — the photo on the left roughly equals the video on the right and there is some plaid guy on the left in the photo with a black cap with white writing on the front which is NOT consistent with/ NOT Biggs but who could be the guy I was trying to track (he’s holding yet another, third, flag — to keep those straight — and is partially obscured by the name label for Kelly Meggs).

        Womp womp!

        • Eureka says:

          Different video: the one I’d wanted to slow down is in harpie’s first link (starting this thread) [it’s not on ProPublica (or yt a/o the 20th), has a NYT bug-stamp, and was purchased from a different news outlet (per CT Exposers — who’ve probably been all over it by now with all the sedition hunters & softwares in the land and ruled in or out folks of interest)]. With some types of twitter-embeds (such as yt) you can R-click to alter playback speed, but alas not with this type (all you get is an option to ‘copy video url’).

          The url you are giving here is the same one that’s up in my March 20, 10:58 AM comment via ProPublica, and which Triebert briefly excerpts in a different part of his thread. Those videos can be slowed at PP’s site sans download/alternate viewer, as well, FYI — if perhaps not to that level of specificity.

          But thank you skua, I appreciate it.

        • skua says:

          Trying to keep you researchers busy!

          I realise it’s not needed now but what worked was:
          Plugged the twitter video address into
          which, when I clicked “Download”, threw up a new tab that was playing the video.
          Right clicking that video let me Save video as … .
          And then VLC lets me alter speed.

  7. john scott says:

    If all these “patriots” are so proud of what they did, why are they not coming forward and admit what they did?

  8. Eureka says:

    For your comedy enjoyment, sound ON (you really need the sound to Exit the Schadenfreude Ramp to a Whole New Experience):

    Brian P. Hickey: “Is … is that Chuck Bass?” [note: Yes, yes it is.]

    Ron Filipkowski: ““Actress” Louise Linton, wife of Steve Mnuchin, makes her directorial debut with the release of ‘Me You Madness,’ that she also stars in. Financed by “friends and family members,” it probably won’t be mistaken for a Scorsese film. From @LizardRumsfeld [clip]”

    “This is not Meryl Streep.[clip]”

    • Savage Librarian says:

      And reframing a humorous reference (from an unknown source in days of yore?):

      Democrat: “It’s spring! It’s spring! The bird is on the wing!”

      Republican: “Absurd, absurd! The wing is on the bird!”

      • Eureka says:

        Pretty much in line with that, right-wingers* have planned worldwide protests today against (?) (actually, one NC gal cites “the communism and the socialism” wrt mask mandates and such they’re all tired of).

        *plus RFK, Jr; other miscellany

        EXCLUSIVE: Far-right Trump supporters hope to use RFK Jr.-backed protests to stage a comeback

        Shivers: adding to 11:08 AM: someone must be held accountable for Taylor Dayne abuse

  9. John K says:

    She displays true dedication to her artistic vision by risking her handsome hubby’s money so she could cavort and make out with a hunky actor half her age. She writhes and tosses her hair with the nuance of a truly predatory femme fatale. She made a believer out of me!
    Now, when I see that photo of her and Steve Mnuchin looking at those freshly minted dollars, I will subconsciously also see a thought bubble above her head with her costar’s face in it. Her performance simply reeks of realism.

  10. Bobster33 says:

    Dr. Wheeler, given the grand reopening of America after covid, when do you expect the first case to be resolved (guilty, innocent, jail, fine, etc.)?

    • bmaz says:

      Lol, they are barely, if at all, out of detention determination status, much less on a trial track. People need to step back and breathe a little. The first resolution(s) will be via plea, and pleas have not even been offered yet formally, though are expected in the next thirty days as to the first ones, which will be, mostly, bit players. Sentencing thereon would be well after that. Cannot emphasize enough that folks need to cool their jets.

      • P J Evans says:

        It’s a lot of cases, and the courts have others that are also in the works, more in their usual run of stuff, and many farther along in the process.

        • bmaz says:

          Yeah, I think the courts and DOJ will be just fine. They are already doing the consolidating and streamlining I predicted. Anybody who thinks the ultimate capacity for handling this is not available does not know the system. They will be okay.

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