“its really difficult to determine whats real and what’s fake;” At Least Three Oath Keepers Believed Trump Invoked the Insurrection Act on January 10

In a government filing responding to a request from Joshua James to have his bail conditions relaxed, the government provided a number of new details about the investigation (as well as noting that, since James’ wife has made almost $200,000 in a fundraiser tied to his arrest, his claim to need to work to provide for his family is unpersuasive).

The filing reveals (possibly based off reconstructed James texts), that on January 10, at least three Oath Keepers had come to believe that Trump had invoked the Insurrection Act, but was being prevented from releasing it.

Kelly Meggs knew about it — but said his guys from Florida were “stay[ing] home until shots fired.”

Kelly Meggs: Insurrection act appears to be signed and we shall se [sic] what tomorrow brings.

James: Yes..

Kelly Meggs: Stay safe

James: You too! Are you coming to TX?

Kelly Meggs: Nope Fl stays home until shots fired !

In addition, James spoke about it with Brian Ulrich.

Ulrich: We heard [Person One] might be disseminating information to all of us is that true?

James: Hes gone comms dark. Im with him.

Ulrich: Oh? Lol well there was talk that he was announcing. Can you guys at least tell me or us is trump going to do something is up with this is all about is he actually doing something?…

Ulrich: Been hearing since this AM that trump signed EO and he was going to have a speech but nothing confirmed.

James: That’s correct. The Insurrection act has been signed but not published to the public. They are keeping him locked away.. theres so much bad information coming from all angles its really difficult to determine whats real and what’s fake.

Ulrich: But is it coming that’s all I want to know…

James: Everyone needs to stay calm, and let’s see what POTUS does.. Yes Its already happening.

Ulrich: Ok. [Person One] ok? You guys needs to stay below the radar.

Since James was with Stewart Rhodes (and armed) when he wrote this, it seems likely Rhodes believed this as well.

If nothing else, the fact that at least three people independently came to believe that Trump had invoked the Insurrection Act will give DOJ probable cause to obtain the communications that might reveal why — and via what channels — they believed that to be true.

Update: The January 6 Select Committee just released their document requests. They ask for any discussions about the Insurrection Act from a variety of departments, including DOJ and DOD.

From November 3, 2020, to January 20, 2021, all documents and communications relating to the possibility of invoking the Insurrection Act, including but not limited to documents and communications concerning that possibility with respect to preparation for the events of January 6, 2021, or responding to the January 6, 2021, attack.

72 replies
  1. harpie says:

    Wow. This seems really important. I admit to being a little stunned about this…though maybe I shouldn’t be. Thanks for laying it out so clearly, Marcy.

    Since ULRICH is involved in this 1/10 conversation with JAMES about whether TRUMP would/had already invoked the insurrection act [!!], I guess I’ll ask this here:
    I noticed that one of the devices the FBI took from him was a body camera. Do you know if anyone is keeping a list of people who were wearing bodycams on 1/6?

    • emptywheel says:

      One of the people who was (and is) tracking QAnon closely says that claim was all over their threads. So it may well be conspiracy theory.

      But who knows?

      • Fran of the North says:

        Thanks for the education and to klynn for the links for deeper insight into this entire topic. Rank speculation to be sure:

        While these 3 perps might have been leaders in the OK hierarchy, they were foot soldiers in the larger context. A Nixon-loving dirty trickster who was in the highest echelons of steal the vote strategy might have been advocating for the IA to be invoked, and getting resistance. Sometimes the best path forward is to assume a ‘yes’ and just get started.

        If the afore-mentioned trickster wanted to get the act invoked, telling the minions that the Act was signed and ready to go would be a way to light a match. Then when ‘patriots’ stood up for ‘Merica by starting a ‘hot’ altercation, that might have been the justification that was required and provide the motivation to invoke.

        And if a few casualties resulted, well those are just the costs of doing business.

        I’ll go back to my den of wild conspiracy theories now

        • subtropolis says:

          There’s certainly good reason to believe that these idiots were just chasing more shadows. The rumours among the entire spectrum of angry dumbasses were thick and plentiful, even among the so-called leaders, no doubt. But that only reinforces the possibility that Stone (for sample) would use that to advantage.

          Of course, that there might have been high-level efforts during the summer to work up an IA leads me to wonder whether Stone was in communication with WH-adjacent actors about it. Perhaps there was some truth behind the rumours, though it (the IA) wasn’t quite a done deal.

          One hopes that something will turn up through the committee’s document probe. I’d like to think that not everyone who knows things is anxious to keep it quiet.

        • Eureka says:

          I think this is more Flynn-side (camp) than Stone side (though the two have become closer of late wrt shared appearances, etc.). I’m sticking a link below on this…

        • Bruce Olsen says:

          Fran, if there had been enough gunplay at/around the Capitol, it’s perfectly plausible that Trump would have invoked the IA, no matter who was involved.
          Do you believe he’d have hesitated to send a few of his supporters to their deaths if it kept him in office? Such a plan would likely have failed within hours (which would have kept him from seriously considering it), but I wouldn’t doubt for a moment that someone around him was twisted enough to devise that kind of grim scenario.
          All he needed was a spark, which luckily never came (thanks to DC’s gun laws).

          • Fran of the North says:

            Bruce, – Absolutely. Lots of semi-automatic weapons fire would provide ‘ample grounds’ for a puppet to invoke. Even if it was his side that was pulling the trigger.

            TFG is the worst impersonation of a military commander: My troops are cannon fodder, as long as I capture the objective.

            Case study: Compare and contrast with Stormin’ Norman in Gulf War One: He kept commanding his staff: ‘Bring me another plan that is less of a meat grinder.’

      • Eureka says:

        Recall Bill Barr has a history of helping ‘foist’ federal forces via the Insurrection Act on USVI in 1989 during the Bush admin (post Hurricane Hugo unrest). Barr gave an interview June 7, 2020 “rewriting” the history of this event (see also re a 2001 interview) as if trying to establish pretext for force deployment under IA sans the respective governor’s consent. Ryan Goodman and colleagues did a series on this this summer.

        Bill Barr’s Playbook: His False Claims About Prior Military Force on U.S. Soil
        by Ryan Goodman and Danielle Schulkin
        July 21, 2020

        Portland’s Pretext: Barr’s Long History Manipulating Law to Put Federal Forces on U.S. Streets

        by Ryan Goodman and Danielle Schulkin
        July 19, 2020

        • Eureka says:

          …and here they describe how Bush’s executive order with the 1992 invocation stressed authorities for the AG and Sec Def, giving AG the lead role but also specific powers to Sec Def to determine withdrawal (hmm might this remnant from the most recent invocation be why Christopher Miller found himself Acting as of November 9, 2020, the first business day after Biden was declared the winner. Why, perhaps yes!*).

          At any rate, Goodman and Vladeck note that it’s POTUS’ prerogative how to assign authorities (tho at the time/context of writing, they imagined that Barr might claim a still-enhanced role for himself).

          The Untold Power of Bill Barr to Direct US Military Forces in Case of “Civil Unrest”

          by Ryan Goodman and Steve Vladeck
          June 9, 2020

          Trump Fires Mark Esper, Defense Secretary Who Opposed Use of Troops on U.S. Streets

          • Eureka says:

            An argument plausibly could be made (and denied) that Team Trump picked Miller also to signal his base. Regardless, here’s Rhodes saying (date prior to 12/12) that he “think[s] the Insurrection Act, um, is on the table”, declaiming direct knowledge, referencing “indicators”, and praising the Miller pick (because Special Forces) in that context:

            Devin Nunes’ Mom’s Son Devin:

            “BONUS 4: In same interview (before 12/12), OK leader Rhodes indicated he saw Trump’s appointment of “Special Forces veteran” Miller to SecDef as a “good sign” Trump was heading in right direction. 1AP & Vets For Trump had Special Forces vets on ground on 1/6. @capitolhunters [video]”
            7:22 PM · Jul 24, 2021

  2. Zirc says:

    “If nothing else, the fact that at least three people independently came to believe that Trump had invoked the Insurrection Act will give DOJ probable cause to obtain the communications that might reveal why — and via what channels — they believed that to be true.”

    Yep. There’s a lot of digging to be done in precisely this direction.


  3. joel fisher says:

    “What a dreamworld these morons lived in,” I say to myself from the comfort of 8 months in the future.
    Or was it all that dreamy? Why can’t this or other horrors be true? Actual Executive Orders are, I think, at least somewhat complicated, but weird shit–Thanks for that, W–prepared, by, say, Rudy’s then law firm on a piece of paper shoved in front of the Former between his cheeseburgers and Diet Coke, signed with the royal flourish, and now lurking…somewhere, could be out there. Who really knows what the Former got up to in those 3.5 months? Oh, that’s right: the people around him; but we can’t trouble them with a bunch of questions or document requests because it might create a difficult court fight.

  4. Silly but True says:

    OOH, it would be nice to understand the basis of their claims.

    OTOH, “muh Insurrection Act” includes all of the elements of an insane internet conspiracy theory, particularly the conspirators misrepresenting the key fundamental point of the Act itself: States are sovereign entities in their own right and federal troops are generally barred from acting within their borders and so special circumstances are necessary to do so _but_ DC is not a sovereign State, nor even a State under the meaning of the Insurrection Act; DC National Guard along with a number of federal armed services from FBI & ATF to Nat’l Park Service & FDA meat inspectors were all at POTUS’ order to assist in putting down any insurrection against the US without need to invoke the Insurrection Act.

    In fact, this very condition is what simply allowed the DC National Guard to simply be called up and mobilized to the Capitol on Jan. 6 without Trump invoking the Insurrection Act.

  5. ApacheTrout says:

    What’s the evidence that they came to this IA belief independently? James is the 1st degree link between Meggs, Ulrich, and Rhodes. Are there no others in the 1st or 2nd degree?

    • emptywheel says:

      Fair question.
      The way I read it is (and these are reverse order in the filing), Ulrich raises it with James, but James already knew about it, and then Meggs raises it with James, and James already knew about it.

      • Leoghann says:

        In several of their chat threads, it seems fairly clear to me that some of those guys in the second echelon wanted to leave the impression that they were as well informed as their leaders. This might be a case of that with James.

  6. Ravenclaw says:

    Could the Insurrection Act be invoked via a secretly signed document? Section 334 (Proclamation to disperse) reads: “Whenever the President considers it necessary to use the militia or the armed forces under this chapter, he shall, by proclamation, immediately order the insurgents or those obstructing the enforcement of the laws to disperse and retire peaceably to their abodes within a limited time.”

    I’d love to see a communications channel from the former White House to the armed seditionists brought to light. But this sounds kinda like conspiracy theorizing that the three percenters were both spreading and duped by.

    Incidentally (and maybe OT) I had not previously realized that the Insurrection Act specifically refers to unrest in any one of the states. A final clause specifies that Guam and the Virgin Islands count as states. But there seems to be nothing about the District of Columbia! (Or Puerto Rico for that matter.) An odd omission.

    • subtropolis says:

      “Of course, the whole point of a Doomsday Machine is lost, if you keep it a secret! Why didn’t you tell the world, eh?!”

      It would be difficult to enforce if nobody knew about it. Besides, a proclamation is literally a public announcement.

      As for a comms channel, I think that may be tricky to tease out. Humpty Dumpty has a long history of using other people’s phones for communicating. Stormy Daniels would call Keith Schiller’s mobile, for example. Of course, there are a finite number of mobile accounts records to check. Without the content, though, it won’t be a cinch to prove anything, I’d think.

      Also, recall that there’s good reason to believe that Roger Stone was in communication with the 3%s at the Capitol, using [cannot recall name]’s device. Were there concurrent calls with someone at the WH?

  7. icelanterns says:

    Beautiful example of stove-pipe netherworld MAGA delusion fed by misinformation

    George Costanza “If I believe it, it must be true”

  8. Stephen Calhoun says:

    Were the insurrectionists who were concerned with the IA unaware that such an act aims to be unfriendly to insurrectionists?

    There were a variety of hopes that an IA would provide salutary effects for those who in their minds were about to take over the “people’s house” and in doing so take over the “government” and undo the steal. (TFG incites an insurrection so as to instantiate the Insurrection Act.) Hopefully, more details of various big picture aspirations of the insurrectionists will eventually be revealed.

    Politico December 18, 2020 MAGA leaders call for the troops to keep Trump in office : https://www.politico.com/news/2020/12/18/trump-insurrection-act-presidency-447986

    • subtropolis says:

      While it appears to be yet another example of muddled thinking from this cohort, there is some logic to it. The “muscle” behind this operation — the PBs, OKs, and 3%s — went into it spreading nonsense about how they were only there to battle antifa. In their fairy tale, it was the leftists who’d planned to disrupt Congress. So, the plan seems to have been to create mayhem and have the WH invoke the Insurrection Act, not to actually stop the mob, but under the pretence of it. Putting troops into the streets, and suspending the law, would act as further cover towards disrupting Congress, not setting things right.

      My interpretation of this from last March:

      • Ravenclaw says:

        Yes, this is the old fascist game plan. Pretend that there is a revolution being planned or attempted by leftists and use that as a pretext for launching your own. Goes back almost a century, used or attempted in multiple countries including the USA.

        In their secret hearts, these guys must really miss having a proper worldwide Communist Party around. So much harder to make the lie stick when all you have to point to are a handful of local antifa groups with no larger agenda or organization.

  9. Alan says:

    Am intrigued as to your choice of photos for this post. Golf Carts. Would be a good stand-alone subject of a post. Who rented and paid for the Golf Carts? Who was the owner? Where were they rented? How did they get to the hotels in DC? How long were the rentals? How many Golf Carts were rented? Who rode in the carts? Who drove the carts? Who rode together? Time line of cart usage based on videos and photos? It is all about Roger Stone.

    • Silly but True says:

      In the “Oathkeepers Conspiracy” case third superseding indictment filed March 31, government includes evidence they stole the golf carts to support the Count 1 18USC371 Conspiracy charge.

    • Leoghann says:

      If you’ll look through the archives at Marcy’s posts in late January and early February, you will indeed find one or more stand-alone posts about “Grand Theft Golf Cart.”

      • Alan says:

        The factual unknowns
        are not addressed in prior posts I was able to locate” HE CRIMES NOT CHARGED
        In spite of Minuta’s self-description, the government did not charge Minuta with Grand Theft Golf Cart. It’s never actually explained where they got the carts, but the Oath Keepers had been using carts as part of their protection detail for people like Roger Stone. If they used golf carts owned or rented by Stop the Steal or some other organizer for the rally, however, it might implicate those owners in the conspiracy if they didn’t report the golf carts as being stolen as part of an effort to breach the Capitol. “

        • bmaz says:

          Lol, golf carts? The stupid golf carts, that is what concerns you? It is a pretty sharp turn from starting out admitting the evidence set is not clear and full of “factual unknowns”, to “HE (sp) CRIMES NOT CHARGED”!! Let’s leave the charging up to professional prosecutors, who know what they have, and what they want to do with it, and do so for a living. Not to mention there may be tactical legal reasons, that is not known either.

          • Alan says:

            Why the sarcasm? First, you misread my posting and you use words and quotes not in my posting. A timeline of golf cart usage etc. will prove to be significant. The issue is not theft of the carts as a crime, but the interaction of users, renters, times etc. Seems pretty clear to me. We will see. Anyway, whoever it was that circled the carts in the lead-in photo seems to share my thoughts on this. Relax.

  10. harpie says:

    1/8/21 Mike LINDELL:

    [VIDEO He’s on a plane] I’m headed out to meet with General Flynn and Sidney Powell. All I can tell you is that Donald Trump is going to be your president for the next 4 years. It will all be revealed.

    Lotta stuff going on that I can’t say …this is the only time in history we have, to beat these guys, to – to suppress the evil… “[Eureka: he then repeats their well-weathered conspiracies, so what’s the “lotta stuff” he can’t say?]

    1/10/21 MEGGS: Insurrection act appears to be signed and we shall se [sic] what tomorrow brings.
    1/10/21 JAMES: That’s correct. The Insurrection act has been signed but not published to the public.
    1/15/21 TRUMP meets in Oval Office with LINDELL, whose meeting notes include:

    […] 15 [insurrection?] Act now as a result of the assault on the
    16 marial law if necessary upon the first hint of any
    19 Sidney Powell, Bill Olsen, Kurt Olsen.
    20 Move Kash Patel to CIA Acting. […]

    Info here:
    [From Eureka’s notes]: https://www.emptywheel.net/2021/01/23/crowdsourced-timeline-tick-tock-to-insurrection-and-beyond/#comment-878870
    3:48 PM · Jan 15, 2021

    • harpie says:

      1/13/21 Trump has not invoked the Insurrection Act of 1807
      [huh…that url specifically says January 10]

      CLAIM: It has been officially confirmed that the Insurrection Act has been secretly signed by President Donald Trump.

      AP’S ASSESSMENT: False. The president has not invoked the Insurrection Act of 1807 in an effort to stay in office. To do so he would have to make a public declaration giving clear reasons for the move, which allows a president to call on the military to address a domestic crisis. […]

    • Leoghann says:

      The common take on Lindell is that he’s a noisy, fatuous fool, who has bought the whole cloth of Trump’s voter fraud conspiracy theory. I don’t subscribe to that; one does not become a billionaire selling shitty pillows without being a major con. I believe Lindell knows what he’s doing, and most of his activity is just a play to keep in the spotlight, and to play up to someone who has more power, and who he believes is richer.

    • Eureka says:

      This might be a good place for this info. Mentioned above that I think this post-1/6 Insurrection Act stuff is coming from the Flynn-side of the op.

      Via visonsurreal (August thread — different than the one harpie just re-linked a few pages back), Flynn org operative Ivan Raiklin was talking in early December that they had something up their sleeve if things got past 1/6 (well, besides indicating they had plans for 1/6).

      As visionsurreal notes, Flynn org folks are close to Vets 4 Trump/Vets for Trump. But/And Vets for Trump are also close to OKs (Virginia scene, incl. Macias and LaMotta/Rhodes etc.).

      So besides things like the whole Rhodes/SoRelle open letter re insurrection act from December, and Flynn, Powell et al.’s Dec (18th?, was it) WH visit re same, there’s this from Raiklin (who also walked with 1AP / Flynn’s Jericho March “security”) re *post J6 plans* if what they had cooked up didn’t work on the 6th:

      Devin Nunes’ Mom’s Son Devin:

      “THREAD: A Flynn Org operative and former Green Beret–Ivan Raiklin–was the architect of a legal plan Sidney Powell, Giuliani, and GOP appear to have followed to keep Trump in power. On 12/7/21, Raiklin said he had spoken to two Congressmen, one possibly being Mo Brooks. /1 [video]”
      9:39 PM · Aug 13, 2021

      “In his interview with JD Rucker on 12/7/21, “constitutional scholar” and Flynn Org operative Ivan Raiklin laid out his plan to–as Rucker put it–“stop the steal.” Raiklin first explained the election began 11/3/20 and that it would complete “most likely” on 1/6/21./2 [video]

      “In addition to learning Raiklin’s a former Green Beret, lawyer & friend of Flynn whom Raikin claimed was the wrongful victim of an FBI “espionage campaign,” Raiklin said “Flynn’s brother” [note: assume this is Joseph aka Joe Flynn] invited Sidney Powell to Flynn’s sentencing hearing in Dec 2018 & Raiklin sat beside her. /5 [vid]

      “So while, at first glance, Raiklin may seem a low-profile actor w/o significant connections, we can now see in retrospect he was indeed laying out on 12/7/20 the “holistic overview” of a plan being followed by, as he claimed, “Sidney Powell” & “Rudy Giuliani and Jenna Ellis.” /6 [vid]

      “In “making sense” of the election, Raiklin developed a detailed plan of action covering each day from Dec 28 – Jan 6, including a possible “surgical/limited Insurrection Act/Martial Law activation” for riots on 1/7 in response to the election results being overturned on 1/6. /9 [screenshot]

      “And, speaking of hybrid warfare, remember when Raiklin said Trump had 4 paths to victory? Well, Raiklin said on 12/7 there was actually a 5th path after 1/6 but “I don’t want to talk about that one,” to which Rucker replied “we’ll deal with the worst case scenario later.” /14 [vid]

      [emphasis added]

      • Eureka says:

        How the hell did this get TWO colors of bold?!? I have accessed a parallel universe.

        (The lighter green is what I “bolded”; the forest green is pretty cool though!)

        • WilliamOckham says:

          The darker green is from a style applied to blockquotes. The lighter green is from a style that applies to bold text.

          This is a blockquote

          This is bold
          (The stylesheets on this site are really complicated. I hope this works to demonstrate the difference.)
          The real question is why your entire blockquote is in bold. I think what happened is you didn’t close the bold tag before the block quote. And that caused a weird side effect.

          • Eureka says:

            Yeah I looked back at it shortly afterwards and I had failed to close my bold tag immediately preceding the blockquote

            so I got that beautiful forest green!

            But then I was ? as to why the pattern of lighter/darker, when I had bolded within the blockquote (I’d have expected it to be reversed, if not SUPERbolded to a third color. As you say, the stylesheets. They are no place for logic!

            ETA: in initially bungling my close tags for _this_ comment, I recalled that I also must have had something in there that I intended to (not) bold where text got carried through to the next proper instance.

            • P J Evans says:

              One site i went to was set up so if you missed the closed tag, it went on through everything after it until someone put in the close. (That eventually got fixed.)

      • Eureka says:

        Think this all ties in to the Sidney-Jenna-Rudy mixed stories back in the 20s of November wrt who Powell was working for (or not) [and Powell dealing w/*campaign lawyer Ellis* over whether to pardon Flynn back in Sept. (then telling Trump to hold off on same)]. harpie recently excavated an old comment thread about this which also links a few of Marcy’s relevant posts on that ball o wax:


      • harpie says:

        This person’s threads are so dense…apologies if this has been covered already.

        8:35 PM · Jul 17, 2021

        [THREAD] The 1AP person on Giuliani’s team will be clarified later, but it’s clear from this that 1AP–through the direction of Flynn–was heavily immersed in the “legal/propaganda” [ie: KRAKEN] component of the insurrection operation.

        Guess how close 1AP and this operation got to Trump? [More THREAD]

    • harpie says:

      There’s a new thread from Capitol Hunters which may move the conversation here a bit further:

      8:33 PM · Aug 28, 2021

      #SeditionHunters – On Jan 6, rally organizer Cindy Chafian & husband Scott rushed to the Capitol in golf carts. (Overheard: ‘We’re inside. They need help, let’s go!’) Turns out, the “help” was…Nathan Hughes, who ran into the tunnel & helped drag Officer Fanone into the mob. 33/ [THREAD]

      End of that thread:

      By Jan 7 he’s agreeing with Robert Patrick Lewis of 1AP [1st Amendment Praetorians] , calling “Patriots” to the next “part of the mission”. 47/ [screenshots]

      • harpie says:

        1/7/21 LEWIS [1AP]: Summer soldiers & sunshine Patriots need not apply for this part of the mission
        1/7/21 HUGHES [responding]: 100%
        [1:55 PM time zone unknown]

      • harpie says:

        From Eureka’s information above about
        FLYNN Org operative and former Green Beret–Ivan RAIKLIN:

        And, speaking of hybrid warfare, remember when Raiklin said Trump had 4 paths to victory? Well, Raiklin said on 12/7 there was actually a 5th path after 1/6 but “I don’t want to talk about that one,” to which Rucker replied “we’ll deal with the worst case scenario later.” /14 [vid]

        • harpie says:

          RAIKLIN had already made plans for

          a possible “surgical/limited Insurrection Act/Martial Law activation” for riots on 1/7 in response to the election results being overturned on 1/6. /9

      • Eureka says:

        That’s a remarkable update, that Hughes was their help. That he had been ‘demoted’ out of VIP to the row behind them for 1/6 (Capitol Hunters thread/38) brings to mind the planners’ power struggles.

        I wonder how much of this eager-beaver-to-seditionry was Chafian trying to reclaim her MAGA bona fides after _she_ was allegedly displaced from power by Caroline Wren (attached to Publix heiress Julie Jenkins Fancelli’s 300k donation, solicited by Alex Jones) (part of this deal was for Jones to get a prime speaking spot for his own ‘pledged’ 50k). Then there’s how Chafian met Jones by “happenstance” at the Willard in December after Jones had had a falling out w/ the Kremers @ Women for America First … not to mention the Kremers ghosting Chafian … Then in walks Fancelli’s $$ (initially anonymous and boasted by Jones as if from his largess-connections or whatever).

        TL;DR 1/6 took a lot of back-biting work to make happen.

        This is a bit convoluted to get into in a brief comment, esp. because their stories change, but it struck me as a desperation-move to belong to MAGA (we all have a need to belong…) that’s going to get yet another upper-middling-ish player in trouble while the bigwigs hold their clean(er looking) hands in the air.

        Welp, maybe Cindy wants to talk some real talk …

        • Eureka says:

          Our old discussions on these issues have more info; in lieu of those links, a few primary sources (Chafian spoke to CNN following the WSJ disclosures):

          Text Messages Show Top Trump Campaign Fundraiser’s Key Role Planning the Rally That Preceded the Siege — ProPublica

          Jan. 6 Rally Funded by Top Trump Donor, Helped by Alex Jones, Organizers Say – WSJ

          InfoWars’ Alex Jones helped jumpstart January 6 rally organization efforts – CNNPolitics

        • Eureka says:

          Cindy Chafian would have no reason to feel (then) desperately power-hungry, (now) bitter or used or anything (via CNN):

          Four days after touching base with Wren, Chafian said she had been completely removed from the rally planning process.

          When she questioned Wren as to why she was being removed, Chafian said she was told, “You didn’t think we would let a nobody with an organization no one has ever heard of plan an event for the President did you?”

          “My role for the event on January 6th was to assist many others in providing and arranging for a professionally produced event at The Ellipse,” Wren told CNN in a statement. “Like all good Americans, I was shocked and horrified by the violence at the Capitol on January 6th and wholeheartedly condemn the illegal actions by those individuals.”

          Chafian said that because she had filed the permit under an email address she used while working for the Kremers’ Women for America First organization, the permit was ultimately given to the group for January 6 rally.

          Even though she was removed from the planning process, Chafian said she continued planning and held an event with Jones, but was forced to move its date to January 5. Chafian said she has not been contacted by the FBI.

          [There’s something about Jones’ 1/5 speech that I cannot find and it’s driving me nuts.]


          Here & next comment = how Jones talked about the funding in a video on 1/6:


          • Eureka says:

            If some of this holds true, sounds like the real players moved on her like a mark, seduced her (with access, until it was — poof — gone) out of the way. So she busted right back in.

            ETA: there was something about Jones’ “peaceful deal” with “the White House” for his 1/6 march to the Capitol which was bundled with his 1/5 speech (which I can’t locate atm, and which was all arranged 1/3, per I think links at the old thread I just added).

  11. Joe says:

    This is still one of the most puzzling aspects of January 6 to me. Did these people fool themselves based on internet conspiracy theories, or was somebody close to Trump relaying (in the end, false) information to them?

    The line “The Insurrection act has been signed but not published to the public…” reeks of Qanon level conspiracy reasoning, but where did the ideas come from?

    • matt fischer says:

      Conspiratorial “logic” feeds off of (and feeds) emotions. It is at its most “logical” when it reflects and triggers deep-seated fears, insecurities and desires. In this context, it makes perfect sense for true believers to assume that Trump secretly invoked the Insurrection Act. Talk of its potential invocation had been in the ether for some time. Fearless leader, ever playing 12-dimensional chess, invoked it in secret so that [random justification here]. Whether this talking point was intentionally planted, or organically and multiply sprouted, its “logic” immediately resonated with this crowd. Not only did it sound true, it felt as if they had already heard it was true.

      • Joe says:

        Yes, I posted after reading the article, but before reading the comments which seem to be saying the same thing.

        As crazy and desperate as Trump’s circle were, I doubt they’d intentionally burn groups of armed and violent militia on a suicide mission.

        I rather think the whole idea for January 6 came from the Oath Keeper leadership (it’s the kind of wacky interpretation of the constitution you’d expect from somebody like Stuart Rhodes) and filtered up to Trump via proxies. Of course that’s pure speculation for now.

        • Fran of the North says:

          We’ll have to agree to disagree. TFG’s circle have repeatedly shown absolutely NO sympathy for those who lay it all on the line and remain completely loyal.

          Classic case is spelled Are You Dee Why.

  12. harpie says:

    “LA extremist” David DEMPSEY was arrested last night:

    8:19 AM · Aug 27, 2021

    #SeditionHunters – last night’s arrest of LA extremist David Dempsey shows the power of the crowd. He covered his face fully on Jan 6, viciously attacked at the tunnel. […]

    He has many prior assaults, including bear-spraying demonstrators in Santa Monica. Widely seen as out-of-control violent. […]

    The unemployed #FlagGaiterCopHater [Dempsey] seems not just a thug, instead has deep connections to wealthy right-wing organizers whose funds fuel extremism. His patron #IamGenevievePeters gave a speech from the West lawn on Jan 6, during her protegee’s assaults. 7/ [MORE]

    • harpie says:

      9/ What took FBI an additional 3 months from May ID to August arrest? We don’t know – but hopefully it was tracing Dempsey’s many connections to the upper stratum, the funders, the #SeditionVIPs, to #IamGenevievePeters and her well-connected friends. 10/ [LINK]

      Links to:
      1:43 AM · Mar 12, 2021

      Some of the names I recognize:
      Joe BIGGS, Roger STONE, Marjorie Taylor GREENE, Enrique TARRIO,

      • harpie says:

        Beginning of Loder thread [I added numbers]:

        These LA-area Proud Boys are unemployed and broke.

        We believe that their MULTIPLE trips to DC were financed by
        1] Elsa Aldeguer (at right, a Three Percenter and founder of Latinos4Trump), along with
        2] Leonor Ferris (middle) and
        3] Genevieve Peters (left, who attended the Capitol riots). [PHOTOS] [THREAD]

      • harpie says:

        I see that link isn’t working…try this one…
        1:27 AM · Mar 12, 2021

        12/12/20, in DC, [Million MAGA March day], and add another name:

        Genevieve Peters with Ali ALEXANDER

        If you scroll up from there, there is video of some pretty violent assaults by Dempsey [with his brother in some cases], and others which take place in CA in the previous months.

      • harpie says:

        That link has an extra digit. UGGGGH!

        Capitol Hunters:

        9/ What took FBI an additional 3 months from May ID to August arrest? We don’t know – but hopefully it was tracing Dempsey’s many connections to the upper stratum, the funders, the #SeditionVIPs, to #IamGenevievePeters and her well-connected friends. 10/ [LINK]

        Links to: [CORRECT LINK HERE]:
        1:43 AM · Mar 12, 2021

        […] 1. Genevieve Peters w/ Proud Boys leader Joe Biggs.
        2. Genevieve Peters coup attempt leader Roger Stone.
        3. Genevieve Peters and Elsa Aldeguer with Proud Boys David Dempsey and Joseph Krongchana.
        4. Genevieve Peters, Marjorie Taylor Greene, Elsa Aldeguer, and Leonor Ferris. [PHOTOS][…]

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