Are The Dubs Done?

Last night I was too tired, and half asleep, so did the unthinkable and semi-hijacked Rayne’s thread with a shout out to Punaise and Molly Pitcher regarding the Golden State Warriors demise. Punaise has not showed up yet, but Molly’s response was pretty spot on:

Yeah, bummer of a birthday for Mr Pitcher. We had to turn the sound off in the second half.

I think Bob Myers made some head scratching decisions prior to this season, and at the Allstar break. Why did they keep Iguodala, whom I love, but is definitely beyond his sell-by date?

Why was so little done to find some sort of replacement for Wiseman? The lack of a mobile Big really crippled us. Loony was a rebounding machine, but he cannot handle the other Bigs in the league.

The Warriors have some serious thinking and greatly needed action ahead of them, starting immediately. Steph, Klay and Dray need to take pay cuts so the Warriors can bring the needed talent to support them, now that the NBA has monkeyed with the salary cap rules to keep Joe Lacob from just ponying up the salary cap tax.

Draymond has recently said he wants to play 4 more years and retire as a Warrior. Both Kerr and Tom Izzo have said that not only is Draymond the smartest basketball mind they have ever met, but he is one of the smartest guys they have ever met. If Klay and Steph still want to compete as much as they have claimed, they can still get another Championship, but only if they have the supporting cast that has been missing this year. And Jordan Poole needs to be traded yesterday, there was a reason Draymond punched him in camp.

Think that is right. So, are the Dubs done? Dunno, but they do have some impending salary cap issues under the NBA’s ever more byzantine guidelines. If Golden State keeps the big threee together, they are going to need some help. Jordan Poole thinks he is Steph Curry, but he is not Steph Curry, does not play defense that well and appears a bit of a cancer in the locker room. Loose Poole. Ike is wonderful (and a former Arizona great), but he is done. Keep the big three, get a little help and keep Wiggins healthy, and you still have an elite team.

The Suns are kind of in the same boat. Have Booker and Durant, and that is as dynamic a duo as there is in the NBA. Yet Chris Paul is old, slow, and never managed to be there come playoff time even when younger and faster. Deandre Ayton is just a puzzle. Has every physical skill and factor in the world, but doesn’t seem to care. The sun is setting on Ayton’s time in Phoenix. If anybody will take him. The NBA Western Conference is not what it once was. Change is afoot.

63 replies
  1. Matt___B says:

    Chris Paul was (slightly less) old and (slightly less) slow when he was with the Clippers too. Still an amazingly skilled player with a great work ethic but has never been stellar during the playoffs…

  2. Chuffes says:

    Their dynasty is sunsetting. Go Lakers!

    [Welcome back to emptywheel. Please use the same username each time you comment so that community members get to know you. This is your FOURTH username (Chuffes, Chuffles, ChuffyM, Chuffy); you indicated you were going to use Chuffles with an l to comply with the 8-letter minimum. Please do so. Thanks. /~Rayne]

  3. hollywood says:

    Not to offend, but I think the Warriors should see if they can get a real big and get rid of Green. His game is too foul oriented. And often his acts incite the opponent.

    • Knowatall says:

      Green’s contract is impossible to unload; he will take the 1-year extension at $27m(!). The insanity of Poole’s long-term contract is the nail in the coffin. Fan, or not, Dubs are Done. But, really, who cares?

    • Kenster42 says:

      Any situation where a truly awful human being like Draymond Green leaves the Warriors is a good thing. He wants to be Dennis Rodman, but Rodman was one of the top 3 rebounders of all time and a critical player on both teams where he won his 5 rings. Green is truly just the goon assigned to beat the shit out of and trash talk the other team and he’s unfortunately the luckiest NBA player on the face of the earth, who happened to be drafted into one of the greatest dynasties in the post-merger NBA. One of the NBA’s biggest bores, he is always both a sore winner and sore loser, and always arrogant to a level way out of proportion to his talent and his ability. That’s why he stays with the Warriors, because if he leaves he won’t get to draft off of the greats.

      • Iamevets says:

        Draymond is a hall of famer and the warriors don’t win a title without him, kinda proven by their loss to the Cavs when he was suspended for game 6 after LeBron walked over him and he crossed the line. Defense wins championships and he has always been their mvp on that side of the ball , covering for curry’s weak defense (improved over the years) . Smartest player around. “Truly awful human being “? Um , no. He’s not buddy buddy with a dictator in North Korea and he’s better than Rodman due to his offensive acumen, the assist totals show that. But outside of being a bit too aggressive On the basketball court, best to separate sports hate from condemning someone who is not really an awful person overall.

        • Kenster42 says:

          Where to start?
          1. Green’s career stats are 8.7 PTS / 7.0 REB / 5.6 AST / 1.4 STL / 1.0 BLK. Wow, stellar! Just amazing! This of course results in Green apologists saying stuff like “well, there are intangibles that make him a HOF player”. Surrrrrre.
          2. “A bit too aggressive on the court.” Uh, sure. If he did any of the stuff he does on the court IRL he’s going to jail for assault. Speaking of, in April 2023, he violently stomps intentionally on the chest of Kings All-Star Domantas Sabonis. Classy. 2 weeks later, Green said about Sabonis, “lost a lot of respect for him. You don’t shake guys’ hands after you lose. I don’t respect that. I once left the court after we lost in Game 7 to the Cleveland Cavaliers, and I went to my locker room, and I sat down and thought ‘this don’t feel right.’ I walked back out on the court and showed everybody love. You lost. Deal with it. Pay your respect. That was whack to me. I wouldn’t even necessarily say lost respect, but I don’t respect that, and that’s whack.” Uh, sure Draymond – maybe you stomping his chest with intent to injure made him less likely to want to shake your hand. Just a thought. Extra classy! Oh, and of course, it turns out that Draymond is lying like he usually does. Witness Tristan Thompson – During the post-game handshakes during a tough Warriors / Cavs game in the teens, Green tossed a little fuel on the fire, refusing to shake Thompson’s hand. “There’s a lot of guys in this league, they soft. We just cut from a different cloth. … I told one of them dudes from the Cavs after the game, he tried to shake my hand. I said, ‘Tristan, we ain’t cut the same.'” Wow, more classy behavior from Green!
          3. During the 2016 NBA playoffs, Draymond Green gave a whole new meaning to the term “kicked-ball violation.” He not once, but twice, nestled his size 15 into the poor, unsuspecting groin of Steven Adams. The Oklahoma City Thunder center stood his ground as Green drove the lane in Game 2, and then crumpled to that same ground as Green followed through and kneed the 7-foot New Zealander straight in the kiwis. While that shot could have been passed off as an accident, a similar incident in Game 3 put it in a much shadier light. Adams was again defending the basket against a driving Green, and prevented him from getting off a quality shot. On the follow through, Green’s foot found its way to Adams’ groin like a heat-seeking missile. Not surprisingly, Green denied he had any intention of catching Adams in the jewels, claiming he was just trying to draw a foul. Wow, more classy Draymond Green behavior. Nothing to see here, just kicking a dude twice in the groin in the same series of games.
          4. In November 2018 during a loss to the Los Angeles Clippers. Durant screamed at Green to “pass the damn ball,” which sent Green into a rage on the sideline. He allegedly responded by saying to Durant: “You’re a b***h and you know you’re a b***h,” according sources speaking with Yahoo! Sports. Green supposedly followed with, “We don’t need you. We won without you. Leave.” Classy again, holy cow, yeah just pure classy behavior from Draymond Green.
          5. In 2017, Green bumped into Michigan State football player Jermaine Edmondson. “I asked who he was to think that it’s okay to bump into somebody without saying excuse me,” Edmondson said, according to a police statement (via ESPN). “[Green] then said, ‘I pay for (bleep) like you scholarships.’ Then I started to say you have me messed up before I was choked out by two guys who were with him.” The next night, things turned ugly, Edmondson claimed. “As I started to talk again, boom, I’m punched in the jaw, in front of all my friends and peers,” he said after confronting Green about the previous night’s apparent events. Green denied the situation was anything more than a slap. Wow, classy! Amazing! Just trying to help a college student out!

          6. In June 2022, Green said this directly to Kendrick Perkins in an interview: “you act like this clown [Skip Bayless] and it’s baffling to me — he could never be you. You don’t have to act like that, my man. … You go from being enforcer to (bleep), how does that happen? At least you acted like an enforcer — I didn’t really ever take you for one.” Classy! What a great person!
          I mean, I could keep going for days, but the reality is that Green is a horrible human being, beating the shit out of people on the court without getting in trouble, getting into fights when he’s out IRL and consistently shitting on people verbally and creating beef constantly. He’s going to the HOF because he was smart enough to stay on a team and collect 4 rings. That’s it. His stats are 100% not HOF worthy. Let’s face it, he’s MJ with all the attitude and cruelty and little of the talent.

          (giving credit, much of this was lifted from several news sources)

          • iamevets says:

            as per number 5, not sure i’d give that guy a whole lot of credibility – dude was chasing a paycheck. You have a lot of anger. This is sports. Don’t see any arrests, don’t see any violence towards women (a great relationship with his mom). I guess he triggers you. he is a basketball savant. deal with it. I hate Payton Manning for what he did to that woman trainer in the locker room at Tennessee many years ago. Don’t spend too much of your time hating athletes who are not criminals. Too much negative energy.

            But the warriors are not the warriors with Draymond, and that’s why they are going to extend him.

          • bmaz says:

            JFC, give it a rest. We get it, you absolutely hate Green. Find another subject that doesn’t get you so worked up.

  4. CroFandago says:

    Sports, but off topic, the NYT is now imitating the the ‘NYT Pitchbot”

    “Logan Sargeant is F1’s first full-time American driver since 2007. Can his sport make the leap from Monte Carlo to Miami with its soul intact? “

    • bmaz says:

      No. There have been no competitive American F1 drivers since Hill, Gurney and Andretti. Truly wish Sargeant everything, but that is a tall mountain to climb.

      Adding: Even Michael Andretti, a very talented American open wheel driver, could not hack it in F1. Not even a full season, and with an extremely competitive car. It is harder than it looks.

      • CroFandango says:

        I was imagining Bernie Ecclestone’s “soul” being lamented.

        Glad even a media writer is covering F1 in the NYT, albeit cluelessly.

        • bmaz says:

          Clueless is a bit of an understatement. Bernie was a complete asshole, but he was way into expanding into the US long before Malone and the jackals at Liberty took over. Do not know the author, but that NYT piece, supposedly from Grove, is absolutely ignorant.

      • Marc says:

        I’d add Ginther to that list. Just one win, but 14 podiums and came within a few points of winning the championship one year.

        • bmaz says:

          Very fair, and one of the nicest guys ever. As was Masten Gregory for that matter.

          It is not like there has always been an absence of US drivers in F1, there just has been for a long time. Danny Sullivan, Scott Speed….fill in the blank.

          It has been bleak for a while though. Thought Haas might change that. Thought they might promote and elevate US drivers, and they wanted to, the polished drivers were just not there.

  5. rosalind says:

    and the Kraken down to a do or die 6th game at home against Dallas. the arena will be hopping.

    • rosalind says:

      and Kraken take it 6-3!!! Back to Dallas for the decisive game 7. love – this – team.

    • Chetnolian says:

      That clip really took me back. The quote from Hill about development not being as important as spectacle sort of says it all. But the lack of risk awareness (perhaps connected) is impossible to miss. Photographers right by the track, wrecks strewn around (all of which would get a safety car and nowadays probably a red flag).

      But your last comment about Hill’s death took me back to the CAA report. I had forgotten what a total disgrace, from lack of valid registration and C of A to clear “ get home” syndrome his operation and piloting of the aircraft was. Too many risks taken. Sad. It took Jackie Stewart, and indeed later Hill’s son Damon to get a reasonable level of safety awareness into the sport. Perhaps along the way some of the spectacle got lost.

      • bmaz says:

        Yes. Think Niki Lauda can be added into the safety hawks that really forced increased safety things on F1. Maybe it did remove a tad of the spectacle part, but that is a good thing overall. Also, weren’t the cars then simply gorgeous?

  6. Rugger_9 says:

    So far, so good on the moves, bmaz. Moving Poole is a win-win-win since he needs to go elsewhere, the Dubs need the cap space and others can move into the role and need minutes. The Dubs aren’t afraid to make big moves after unloading another high-round project this year.

    Speculation here is also about GM Myers moving on, which would be worse for Golden State.

    As for the Suns, it will be harder given what they gave up to get Durant. He’s also getting older too and for the moment the draft picks aren’t there for a rapid rebuild.

    Denver-Lakers: I see Jokic doing his best to poster Lebron and while Lebron wins some battles Jokic wins the war. It will be interesting to see how many time Jokic gets T’d. It’s about the supporting cast and whether AD gets called for 3 second violations for a change. AD was pretty mercurial versus GS and Denver is not just Jokic and the eleven dwarfs.

  7. Molly Pitcher says:

    And this morning Iguodala retired, so the off season has begun in earnest. Really excited to see what decisions get made.

    Also, Go Nuggets !! (NOT a Laker fan).

  8. hollywood says:

    You’re just setting your Nuggets up to get smashed by the Celtics or the Sixers. There’s a reason the Nuggets have never gone all the way.

    • PeteT0323 says:

      Oops you mean Celts or Heat.

      Harden and co “should” have won it…

      My sense is that whoever comes out of Celts v Heat is gonna be tired and beat up. The East is a street fight.

      Torn allegiance because I am a Celtics fan since Russell. Live about an hour north of the Heat, but I still bristle at the James, Wade, Bosh short lived era. Don’t like buying championships – I am looking at you Marlins, Yankees, etc

      Riley, but especially Spoelstra has a done an incredible job this year with Jimmy Buckets (h/t bmaz) and a cast including a lot of undrafteds.

      I may actually watch all 7 games ;-)

  9. bmaz says:

    And there it is, the Suns have fired Monty Williams. Frankly, don’t think Williams was the problem, but the new owner is going to start over.

    • SaltinWound says:

      I understand this. Suns traded their assets for Durant. Their best chance to improve is Ayton making a leap and Williams’ relationship with him had deteriorated.

      • bmaz says:

        Yeah, true. Not sure I blame that on Williams, but it is certainly true. As to Ayton finally making that leap, sure hope so. Sigh…..

        • StellaBlue says:

          Wlliiams is a very good coach and a class act. All the coaches thought to be better already have jobs. It is a gamble to hire an unknown and expect better than very good. But so it goes in the NBA, changing coaches is easy and relatively cheap.

          • SaltinWound says:

            There have never been more coaches who recently won championships available at the same time. Nurse, Vogel, Budenholzer.

            • Stellablue says:

              All very good coaches, none are clearly better than Williams. Championships won with better rosters and luck

              • Rugger_9 says:

                Maybe Kerr brings him to GS as his alter ego like he did for several other coaches. It actually works out for both sides.

  10. SaltinWound says:

    Jordan Poole’s biggest flaw is he thinks he’s as good a shooter as Curry and Thompson. He is nowhere close. He makes a third of this three pointers. Average.

  11. Rugger_9 says:

    Way OT, but an example of just how full of crap the GOP is:

    Comer was on Bartiromo after his nothingburger presser this week to explain the latest theory for why there is still no there there. It seems our ‘very credible’ whistleblower lost track of his ‘informant’ who ‘works in the spy business and is usually not seen’. I don’t think they’ve decided yet to float the deep state offed the informant or the informant is hiding for his life angles but it’s still a typical GOP dangle of innuendo.

    That, and Doonesbury is worth a read, via BarkBarkWoofWoof:

      • Rugger_9 says:

        That and also to bury the verdict news. They seem to have given up on Hillary for now.

      • Rugger_9 says:

        Still no whistleblower or informant. It’s almost as if there wasn’t anyone to find. We’ll see. Is it Justin Bieber (/snark)?

        Meanwhile, Senator RoJo of WI floated the idea that evidence could be ‘inferred’ against Joe Biden, which more than a few people ripped to shreds. However, let’s apply that standard to RoJo and the GOP Sedition Caucus as well as Defendant-1 and his family. I don’t think he thought that through which is a trademark. Perhaps RoJo is concerned that Senator Tuberville is serious competition for the dumbest Senator title and had to ‘down’ his game.

  12. punaise says:

    Aargh! Sorry I missed the party so to speak; thanks for the shout out. I’ve been busy all weekend with our mom’s memorial event and entertaining out-of-town friends who came in for it.

    I agree with Molly’s and bmaz’s takes on the Warriors. Almost surprised how little their inglorious exit affected me; turned the game off well before it ended.

    It’s almost a relief. Kind of done with the internal drama.

    They are a flawed team who had to thread the needle every step of the way to get as far as they did. I will remain a Steph Curry fan to the end – he’s my favorite athlete ever. But their glory days may be behind them at this point.

    And yes, I never understand resigning Iggy – he should’ve just been a coach in street clothes, which is basically what he was anyway, taking up a roster spot.

    • bmaz says:

      Iggy would be a fine choice to grow as a coach.

      And condolences, did not know about mom.

      • punaise says:

        Thanks, bmaz. She passed away in October, and at nearly 94 years old there was nothing tragic about it. A life well lived. She was deeply involved in civic / community organizations in my hometown, and there was a nice turnout of folks from those organizations.

        Fun fact: she was the forewoman of the county grand jury for one year back in the 70s. As a somewhat rambunctious teenager at the time I’m surprised I didn’t even think to look through whatever presumably confidential files she brought home (if such a thing even happened).

  13. hollywood says:

    538–certainly not the be all and end all of prognosticators–seems to be looking at a Celts Nuggets final.

  14. TooLoose LeTruck says:

    I thought the Warriors were in trouble back in preseason, when Green punched Poole… if my memory is correct, the punch occurred after the team had signed both Wiggins and Poole to really nice contract extensions but didn’t give one to Green… I wondered at the time if Green punching Poole had anything to do w/ Green resenting it, and if there’d be any lingering hangover to that.

    As a performer, I learned a long time ago that an audience isn’t a collection of individuals, it’s a singular entity w/ its own identity. By extension I’d assume a team has a similar psychology to it, and even more so w/ a basketball team, given it has the smallest roster of any pro sport. When a team has a problem between two players, like the Warriors did with Green and Jordan, it can’t not affect the rest of the team in some way. A basketball team isn’t like a baseball team w/ a 25 person roster, or football w/ 40 plus.

    That, and an aging core of superstars trying to mesh with a group of raw newbies…

    It will be interesting to see what happens with Green in the off season… as someone pointed out upstream, it’s questionable as to how many teams would want to take on a troublesome player with a $27MM price tag and the baggage Green brings with him.

    And I think the Warriors paid too much for Poole. Watching him play, he makes too many bad decisions.

    Having said all that, this particular iteration of the Warriors have had a good run… 4 rings?

    And all things must pass…

    • Rugger_9 says:

      I agree about the locker room cancer issue, since it dovetails nicely with the observation that an ‘oh bleep’ takes out ten ‘attaboys’. We had a report this morning that Green was going to stay, but let’s see the terms that are real. Type-A bipolar folks can also be quite effective within the following rules:
      1. Their focus is on the team’s success, not their own numbers.
      2. They need to be ready to fly with the eagles in the morning.
      3. They take ownership of their own screw-ups.

      1. IIRC, Green’s issue with Poole earlier was the perception that Poole was dogging it which is a pretty serious crime for Green. The Warriors are a team everyone wants to beat and wearing the bullseye brings added self-responsibility whether one is aware of it or not. It’s something I learned at Cal playing for Ned and Jack, and the really good teams understand this. So, Green is going to make sure his teammates understand that clearly. FWIW, if this were a real issue, I have no doubt that Steph, Klay or Iggy would have dealt with it in no uncertain terms. I also think the other newbies would have responded poorly as well. I think Green’s OK here.

      2. Getting Ts to the point where the automatic league suspensions kick in (just in time for the playoff push, no less) is not what one wants. Green needs to learn to pick his spots better. This test fails.

      3. However, Green knows this and has said so. Green’s OK here on policy, but needs the execution.

      • iamevets says:

        Even with all the issues – the most disappointing thing was that the greatest shotting backcourt in NBA history essentially failed this year due to not being able to shoot when it mattered. they had the looks. But Klay and Steph, at the Crypt, just missed shots they normally make. That’s what it came down to – they essentially had makeable shots and missed. their greatest historical strength was their demise.

        this core can still win.Klay led the league in 3s and Draymond was again a defensive force. but they need help (love Iggy but needed something more). and Poole doesn’t have the basketball IQ (offense or defense) that Draymond and Steph do, and the warriors demand that.

        the NBA was amazing this year in how closely jumbled most of the teams were – for the most part everyone was mediocre. Won’t take that much for the Warriors Invitational to star the dynasty of the last decade again.

  15. newbroom says:

    F-1? Nah, motor sports are too dependent on technology and fossil fuels. I was kind of a fan as a teenager but I’ve been a basketball enthusiast since I was playing Biddy League at 8 years old. We won the championship my last yr. when I was 12.
    Having grown to adulthood in NH, but only about 50 miles north of B-town, I’ve been a Boston fan, and especially a Celtics fan. I have been to the garden several times during the Havlicek, Cowens era, and I saw Kareem with Milwaukee, the Knicks with Reed, Monroe, and Frazier, and a few more. I like to think that I’m knowledgeable about the game.
    My favorite player now active, is the Joker. I hope he and the Nuggets win their chip this year, and silence the racist critics who only see a big, slow, awkward white guy who unexpectedly buries his opponents with an array of unmatched skills, creativity, and strength. My dark horse is the Miami Heat. You cannot discount Jimmy Buckets while his team is still competing.

    • Bay State Librul says:

      About a month ago, by chance, I came across Leigh Montville’s latest book Tall Men, Short Pants.
      The book was like getting a 180 on the LSAT Exam.
      It is part memoir and part chronicle of the Celtics/Lakers 1969 Final Seven Game Series. At the time, Montville was a young reporter for the Globe, who as one reviewer said, “had a first-row seat to an epic duel that went the full seven games and pitted Bill Russell’s Boston Celtics against Wilt Chamberlain’s Los Angeles Lakers.”
      I’m hoping we have another matchup in 2023, but alas, Fan Duel is not predicating this happy outcome.

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