King John Would Like a Word with Justice Alito

The Magna Carta Monument, Runnymede England

I am annoyed by folks who claim to love history and are blind to it. I am disgusted by folks who claim to love history, are willfully blind to it, and in their willful blindness try to use their power to inflict damage on others.

Why yes, I *did* listen to the oral arguments at SCOTUS today. Why do you ask?

sigh

Here’s an exchange between Justice Alito and Michael Dreeben, speaking for the government:

JUSTICE ALITO: Mr. Dreeben, you dispute the proposition that a former president has some form of immunity.

MR. DREEBEN: Mm-hmm.

JUSTICE ALITO: But, as I understand your argument, you do recognize that a former president has a form of special protection, namely, that statutes that are applicable to everybody must be interpreted differently under some circumstances when they are applied to a former president.

Isn’t that true?

MR. DREEBEN: It is true because, Justice Alito, of the general principle that courts construe statutes to avoid serious constitutional questions. And that has been the longstanding practice of the Office of Legal Counsel in the Department of Justice.

JUSTICE ALITO: All right. So this is more, I think, than just a — a quarrel about terminology, whether what the former president gets is some form of immunity or some form of special protection because it involves this difference which I’m sure you’re very well aware of.

If it’s just a form of special protection, in other words, statutes will be interpreted differently as applied to a former president, then that is something that has to be litigated at trial. The — the former president can make a motion to dismiss and may cite OLC opinions, and the district court may say: Well, that’s fine, I’m not bound by OLC and I interpret it differently, so let’s go to trial.

And then there has to be a trial, and that may involve great expense and it may take up a lot of time, and during the trial, the — the former president may be unable to engage in other activities that the former president would want to engage in. And then the outcome is dependent on the jury, the instructions to the jury and how the jury returns a verdict, and then it has to be taken up on appeal.

So the protection is greatly diluted if you take the form — if it takes the form that you have proposed. Now why is that better?

MR. DREEBEN: It’s better because it’s more balanced. The — the blanket immunity that Petitioner is arguing for just means that criminal prosecution is off the table, unless he says that impeachment and conviction have occurred.

Oh, the horrors of forcing a former president to defend himself in a trial! So sayeth Justice Alito, he who cites a 17th century English witchburner of a jurist (who also invented the marital rape exception), in order to justify denying women bodily autonomy.

If Justice Alito is fond of citing old English judicial writings, let me walk him back another 4 centuries and introduce him to John, by the grace of God King of England, Lord of Ireland, Duke of Normandy and Aquitaine, and Count of Anjou.

Once upon a time — long before a bunch of rabble-rousing colonial insurrectionists said that “Governments are instituted among Men, deriving their just powers from the consent of the governed, –That whenever any Form of Government becomes destructive of these ends, it is the Right of the People to alter or to abolish it, and to institute new Government, laying its foundation on such principles and organizing its powers in such form, as to them shall seem most likely to effect their Safety and Happiness.” — there was a little dustup between John, by the grace of God King of England etc., and a bunch of his barons, as well as various bishops and archbishops. The barons and clergy, distressed at what seemed to them to be very ill treatment at the hand of their king, expressed their frustrations in a manner that could not be ignored.

In June 1215, John and the barons negotiated an agreement. In it, after an introduction and 60 separate clauses in which King John agreed to various reforms and promised to make specific restitution in various particular cases that were demanded by his barons, the 1215 version of the Magna Carta ends like this:

* (61) SINCE WE [ed: John] HAVE GRANTED ALL THESE THINGS for God, for the better ordering of our kingdom, and to allay the discord that has arisen between us and our barons, and since we desire that they shall be enjoyed in their entirety, with lasting strength, for ever, we give and grant to the barons the following security:

The barons shall elect twenty-five of their number to keep, and cause to be observed with all their might, the peace and liberties granted and confirmed to them by this charter.

If we, our chief justice, our officials, or any of our servants offend in any respect against any man, or transgress any of the articles of the peace or of this security, and the offence is made known to four of the said twenty-five barons, they shall come to us – or in our absence from the kingdom to the chief justice – to declare it and claim immediate redress. If we, or in our absence abroad the chief justice, make no redress within forty days, reckoning from the day on which the offence was declared to us or to him, the four barons shall refer the matter to the rest of the twenty-five barons, who may distrain upon and assail us in every way possible, with the support of the whole community of the land, by seizing our castles, lands, possessions, or anything else saving only our own person and those of the queen and our children, until they have secured such redress as they have determined upon. Having secured the redress, they may then resume their normal obedience to us.

Any man who so desires may take an oath to obey the commands of the twenty-five barons for the achievement of these ends, and to join with them in assailing us to the utmost of his power. We give public and free permission to take this oath to any man who so desires, and at no time will we prohibit any man from taking it. Indeed, we will compel any of our subjects who are unwilling to take it to swear it at our command.

If one of the twenty-five barons dies or leaves the country, or is prevented in any other way from discharging his duties, the rest of them shall choose another baron in his place, at their discretion, who shall be duly sworn in as they were.

In the event of disagreement among the twenty-five barons on any matter referred to them for decision, the verdict of the majority present shall have the same validity as a unanimous verdict of the whole twenty-five, whether these were all present or some of those summoned were unwilling or unable to appear.

The twenty-five barons shall swear to obey all the above articles faithfully, and shall cause them to be obeyed by others to the best of their power.

We will not seek to procure from anyone, either by our own efforts or those of a third party, anything by which any part of these concessions or liberties might be revoked or diminished. Should such a thing be procured, it shall be null and void and we will at no time make use of it, either ourselves or through a third party.

* (62) We have remitted and pardoned fully to all men any ill-will, hurt, or grudges that have arisen between us and our subjects, whether clergy or laymen, since the beginning of the dispute. We have in addition remitted fully, and for our own part have also pardoned, to all clergy and laymen any offences committed as a result of the said dispute between Easter in the sixteenth year of our reign (i.e. 1215) and the restoration of peace.

In addition we have caused letters patent to be made for the barons, bearing witness to this security and to the concessions set out above, over the seals of Stephen archbishop of Canterbury, Henry archbishop of Dublin, the other bishops named above, and Master Pandulf.

* (63) IT IS ACCORDINGLY OUR WISH AND COMMAND that the English Church shall be free, and that men in our kingdom shall have and keep all these liberties, rights, and concessions, well and peaceably in their fullness and entirety for them and their heirs, of us and our heirs, in all things and all places for ever.

Both we and the barons have sworn that all this shall be observed in good faith and without deceit. Witness the abovementioned people and many others.

Given by our hand in the meadow that is called Runnymede, between Windsor and Staines, on the fifteenth day of June in the seventeenth year of our reign (i.e. 1215: the new regnal year began on 28 May).

Note the third paragraph, that begins “If we, our chief justice, . . .” In that paragraph, King John, by the grace of God King of England etc., is agreeing that he and his administration are not immune from accountability.

John and the barons agreed on a process for adjudicating disputes. They agreed on a panel that could both bring charges and judge them.  They agreed on how the panel should be chosen, and how the panel should select new members at the death of old ones. They agreed on how many members of the panel needed to agree in order for a judgment to be final. They agreed on a time frame for restitution. Most importantly, should John be found to have violated the terms of this document and yet refuse restitution, John, by the grace of God King of England etc., agreed that his castles and lands could be seized under order of the panel to make restitution for what he had done, or his officials had done on his behalf.

To be fair, the Magna Carta was changed and altered in the years and centuries that followed. But the original text of the original version makes it clear that even the King of England, Lord of Ireland, Duke of Normandy and Aquitaine, and Count of Anjou does not enjoy absolute immunity.

Trump may wish to be a monarch with absolute immunity and not a president.

Alito may wish to treat him as a monarch with absolute immunity and not a president.

But in a meadow at Runnymede, between Windsor and Staines, John, by the grace of God King of England, Lord of Ireland, Duke of Normandy and Aquitaine, and Count of Anjou, said no. That’s not how even a divinely appointed monarch is to be treated.

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61 replies
  1. New Dayve says:

    This courtesy of Seren Verch Dafydd:

    Quite a few Kings of England or the United Kingdom lost their throne due to their actions.

    Edward II was deposed by his wife Isabella of France and her lover Roger Mortimer (a Welsh Marcher Lord) due to his revoking of reforms instituted by his father and his favoritism towards the Despencer family. He die while in custody of Mortimer’s son-in-law.

    Richard II was deposed by his cousin Henry of Bolingbroke due to his tyranny and misgovernment. After a group of nobles plotted to overthrow the new King Henry IV, Richard was moved to Pontefract Castle where he is thought to have been starved to death.

    Richard II who usurped the throne from his nephew Edward V [and possibly murdered Edward and his brother Richard of Shrewsbury] was willed in battle by Henry Tudor who was pledged to marry Elizabeth of York the rightful heiress of Edward V.

    Charles I was put on trial for treason by Parliament and executed.

    James II was declared to have abdicated the throne by Parliament after he fled the country. Parliament offered the throne to his daughter Mary and his son-in-law and nephew William of Orange. Unlike the other former monarch, he actually died of old age in exile.

    Edward VIII was forced to abdicate as Parliament would not approve his choice of bride. He died of old age in exile.

  2. timbozone says:

    Seems like some of the current US Supreme Court Justices would be more interested in supporting John against their own countrymen…as long as there was something in it for said Justices.

    • stillscoff says:

      But for concessions such as the ones John made any monarch is a tyrant, and I have no taste for monarchy or tyranny.

      A man should learn to govern himself before he seeks to govern others.

      Freedom is about granting to others what we wish for ourselves.

      [Welcome back to emptywheel. Please use the SAME USERNAME and email address each time you comment so that community members get to know you. You published this under username “scoff”, but you updated your username to “stillscoff” back in May 2023. I have edited your name this one time. Please make of note of it and stick with that username since it complies with the site’s minimum 8 letter standard. /~Rayne]

        • hippiebullsht says:

          …And an idea that has been choked within a mm of its life for the first 200 years of US history and the Republicons are doing their damnedest to now kill completely and really the Democrats have just barely mustered enough effort to keep that death at bay in our 21st century.
          Good crappy lord, its as if the aristocracy empowered by the Magna Carta still seeks to rule over the populace without real, deep representation, even if firmly and clearly placed within the constitution as the source of legitimate power in this nation…

          • earlofhuntingdon says:

            Your anachronistic comment needs work. The Magna Carter, for example, didn’t “empower” the barons. It is an expression of the power they already held.

  3. muddy boots says:

    There was a dust-up first, then the concession. The US is now under attack by lawyers. Y’all better sharpen your quills – IANAL. Or GOTV.

  4. Molly Pitcher says:

    I wish that Justice Kagan had pushed back harder on Sauer after his absurd statement that a President can order the execution of a political foe by saying “so then, Joe Biden can order the execution of Donald Trump.”

    • Playdohglobe says:

      The 5 conservative SCJ are pushing for a civil war if they truly believe a President can order the assassination of a political rival. That President cannot be judged and his minions( assassins) whom he pardons cannot be held to account by the courts. It is an absurd position that first requires an impeachment and conviction at the hands of Congress before the courts can intervene.

      If SCJ strips away legal boundaries to tyranny, there is only one recourse, Frightening and deadly choices.

      The only reason John, by the grace of God King of England, Lord of Ireland, Duke of Normandy and Aquitaine, and Count of Anjou, in a meadow at Runnymede, between Windsor and Staines, agreed to the Magna Carter was force of arms by the people he ruled poorly over.

      That is the option the Magna Carta envisions if we have absolute immunity for said President (AKA -King) – Change only came at the point of armed rebellion and by force, the poorly ruled said NO to absolute immunity.

      What is the meaning of Magna Carta?

      a charter of liberties SIGNED UNDER DURESS by King John of England in 1215 that influenced the development of many important modern legal and constitutional principles (as due process).

      History does not repeat exactly, however it is very good at rhyming.

      How is this possible in 2024?

      • Rugger_9 says:

        It was a duress of John’s own making. Kings of England had to re-learn that lesson multiple times, including Charles I who tried to defy his Parliament (the ‘Roundheads’) and lost his own head as a result. It should be noted that much of the decline in Charles I’s power was a direct result of poor financial management continuing James I’s policies and the already unchallenged power of the purse by Parliament, echoed in the GOP’s spendthrift ways now.

        His son Charles II in an equally powerful constitutional position (only the promises of the Breda declaration applied and they weren’t much of a change) had the thrill of watching his flagship towed down the Thames by the Dutch. Contrast that event with Anne who had church bells worn out ringing for British victories, but who had much less constitutional power. This should exemplify the tenet that better results follow when more good minds are working on a solution.

    • ColdFusion says:

      I would have preferred it to be more broad, to include the congress critters and state leaders who tried to subvert the entire election. I wonder how the SC would weigh the lives of a couple hundred with no possible punishment. All Biden would have to do is declare them an enemy of the State or the fun new word this generation: Terrorist.

  5. wasD4v1d says:

    I love that word ‘distrain’, to unbind (strain is to bind, prob. cognate to string and strength). A distraint warrant is used to ‘free’ collateral for repayment of debt repossession and foreclosure would be forms of distraint. Fascinating word.

    • BRUCE F COLE says:

      And when you strain to do something, you are working against the limits that constrain you!

      Trump is straining against the constraints of our Constitution and he’s being unfettered by certain Justices.

  6. giorgino says:

    Small typo in 2nd last paragraph “Alito may with to treat him as a monarch”. Should be “wish”

      • David Brooks says:

        Well, if we’re caviling over typos, it was Richard *III* who was *killed*.

        A lawyer once explained to me that the US Constitution is not a stand-alone document. It is meant to be understood in terms of the freedoms and definitions in English Common Law and the Magna Carta (possibly even the 1688 Bill of Rights).

        • David Brooks says:

          I just realized that I was referring to a comment by New Dayve, sorry.

          Also we can discuss till the end of the Kingdom the relative rights of Dick III (recently recognized as authentic by the Crown) and Hal VII, the descendant of Gaunt’s somewhat-legitimate Beaufort kids. Did I just tip my hand?

  7. Ed Walker says:

    The MAGA SCOTUS view that they have to create a general principle for the future is beyond stupid. Do they think some other president will fight the orderly transfer of power? Do they think they can predict any future criming by some future president?

    Decide the case in front of them. Just say “If there is a zone of presidential immunity, about which we are not required or permitted to opine, this isn’t it” and get on with the trial.

  8. grizebard says:

    Hmmm, so Alito is apparently greatly concerned that any former president – not the current one, note – is somehow constrained about going about his (possibly unlawful) business without effective legal challenge? I wonder who he could particularly have in mind (and what particular activity)…?

    • myra_bo_byra says:

      I have no time for ye fools and scoundrels. I have tee times to make, and golf games to cheat at, followed by raping and pillaging before taking my ease with my minions and sycophants!

  9. Lisboeta says:

    Alito could’ve expressed his objections more succinctly: “It is my belief that this specific ex-president should not be subject to nor encumbered by the laws of this land.” He could then have moved on to explaining why this belief and interpretation would not apply to any other president, current or future.

    • grizebard says:

      My reading also. And it doesn’t seem to bother him in the least that if Trump gets back in office (perish the thought!) then decides (say) that Alito along with the rest of the enablers on the SC, having served their (ie. his) purpose, was merely an impediment to his further ascendancy and has them all eliminated, that’s all just as it should be. And everyone will hurrah?

      I used to think that the current US was increasingly emulating Weimar, but now it seems more like ancient Rome.

      • hippiebullsht says:

        yes, we are looking more and more like the Roman empire. But also, the feudalism we passed thru in middle ages is showing its form also.
        I do not agree with you reading that SCOTUS cons fail to see that they will be swept away. Rather it seems they really know what Peterr missed in his rush to find a parochial tale from long past history to prove something via homily now: the Magna Carta saved feudalism and empowered the aristocracy to power level up and be in on directing their unrepresentative authority upon extracting value and obedience from the the citizenry, for their own titled benefit, as they see fit to negotiate with a supreme ruler, to shitty earthly hell with the common man.
        Don’t doubt for a second their are not legal-financial-political networks totally ready to capitalize upon a diminished constitutional efficacy for the executive to be an instrument of a democratically functioning citizenry. The power lust axis of US is always seeking ready to capitalize on any power ascending in our nation… emptywheel is a daliy gritty detailed reminder of such…

        • Peterr says:

          Oh please.

          Alito and his ilk point to the Magna Carta as a guidepost for the rule of law, leading to the US Constitution. I was pointing out that the Magna Carta also held that the King of England, etc., who (they believed) ruled by the grace of God, was not absolutely immune from accountability.

          Don’t paint me with some “save the aristocracy and to hell with the common man” brush.

          • earlofhuntingdon says:

            The commentator brings to mind the anarcho-syndicalist commune serfs that aggravated Arthur, distracting him from his search for the Grail with their dispute over whether they lived in an autonomous collective or a self-perpetuating autocracy.

            Whether the Magna Carta “saved feudalism” is an argument those serfs would have endlessly disputed up and down their rows of mud, leaving them nowhere but covered in mud.

  10. Saeomon+1 says:

    “[W]henever any Form of Government becomes destructive of these ends, it is the Right of the People to alter or to abolish it, and to institute new Government, laying its foundation on such principles and organizing its powers in such form, as to them shall seem most likely to effect their Safety and Happiness.”

    Lately, I find my mind returning to these words a lot, with a growing sense of both apprehension and potential necessity. That alarms me.

    • hippiebullsht says:

      for real!*!*!
      didn’t know for sure where your quote comes from, but know its concepts from it being in the lifeblood of what make the US nation true and great, a quick check verified Declaration of Independence.

      Yes, i return to concepts described by your quote daily, no need to shuffle of into parochial feudal noble eras for fortitude against power lusters.

      I have faith that our citizens will vote for a representative government that truly and honorably serves them, as best as they can with choices offered on the ballot.
      If my faith is overgrown, I know that a whole lotta wanna be nobles and dictators and supreme rulers and lackeys and supporters will meet immense pain and resistance to dismantling what our blood, sweat, thought, love and tears have built for a representative governing of our our complex and rich land and our similarly existing friends and allies around the world.

  11. earlofhuntingdon says:

    Sam Alito’s solicitous defense of Trump – his concerns over how hard, time consuming and expensive it would be to defend himself in a criminal prosecution – could have been written by Stephen Miller or another Trump propagandist. Oh, wait. They have no business in the mouth of a Supreme Court Justice, who is arguing, in effect, that Donald Trump is above the law.

  12. earlofhuntingdon says:

    The Great Charter of Liberties has a long history and has gone through many different interpretations. It was fundamentally an agreement between the king and a clutch of his most powerful barons, which then included bishops, over their respective rights. It was irrelevant to those below them, except symbolically, which was and remains its greatest use.

    It’s history nicely illustrates political sausage-making. King John almost immediately reneged on the deal. It was forced back on him, and he died within a year of signing it. But the Great Charter stands for the proposition that even divine right kings have limits to their authority, most painfully (to them) when it comes to needing political approval to raise funds and wage war, which led to the establishment and growth of Parliamentary power.

    Anecdotally, John’s reign was so ill-regarded by royalists – he conceded rights to his barons, he lost English possessions in France – that no other king has since taken his name, unlike the multiple Edwards, Henrys and Charlies.

    • emptywheel says:

      We’re even going to rename his castle after the city.

      Eventually. He never even lived in it.

    • Peterr says:

      So you’re saying the Great Charter led to the rise of Boris “Hold my beer” Johnson, Liz “shorter shelflife than a cabbage” Truss, and Rishi “who me, rich?” Sunak, to say nothing of Dominic “Brexit will be a piece of cake” Raab, Suella “sink the small boats” Braverman, and other Tory wannabe PMs?

      That might strike some folks as a steep price to pay for a charter of liberties.

      • earlofhuntingdon says:

        James Burke notwithstanding, one would have to exclude a few million intervening events to blame BoJo and 49-Day Truss on King John.

      • gruntfuttock says:

        ‘In the beginning the Universe was created.

        ‘This had made a lot of people very angry and been widely regarded as a bad move.’

        (Douglas Adams)

        Chaos theory says a small perturbation of the whole can lead to – well – now.

        Trump is on trial; I wish I could predict the tiny perturbations of his gurning going forward but that’s beyond me.

  13. P J Evans says:

    IIRC, part of the reason for it was John hanging some of his hostages from a castle wall, in front of their fathers.

    • Peterr says:

      Given the details provided in clauses 1-60, there are a fair number of folks to whom John had to apologize and otherwise make restitution.

      But to borrow from Sir Python, let’s not bicker and argue about who killed whom . . .

  14. Henry the Horse says:

    First, Henry Tudor was the usurper, not Richard the III. The Tudor man had a negligible claim to the throne and Richard was the brother of the deceased King whose Plantagenet family had ruled for centuries.

    Moreover, Richard was going to run things as Regent for a number of years anyway due to the age of his nephews.

    We don’t know the fate of The Princes (I am not going to say in the Tower) and likely never will. Phillipa Langley was considered mad for trying to find Richard. But she did. She has also developed plausible evidence now that the Princes survived Richard III.

    The strangest part of this is that it’s if the 2 sides of the English Civil War have joined sides. A group of fundamentalist puritans have joined forces to protect the divine right of kings. WTAF??? Perhaps King Charles should have taken in Cromwell as a confidant?? This is just weird.

  15. Narpington says:

    King Don was not a good man,
    And no good friends had he.
    He stayed in every afternoon …
    But no one came to tea.
    And, round about December,
    The cards upon his shelf
    Which wished him lots of Christmas cheer,
    And fortune in the coming year,
    Were never from his near and dear,
    But only from himself.

    With apologies to A A Milne

  16. misnomer bjet says:

    This seems only to concern property, and a sort of civil rather than criminal form of law & enforcement in the case of exemptions specified, but extends something more like right to criminal law making and enforcement to lords and (through them) to the entire “community of the land,” after 40 days of delay, after which ..

    anyone else …like a Thomas or Meadows or Ron Johnson, or say, a Barr or Sessions could be detained for questioning concerning ‘confusion’ six weeks before the latter was ‘finally’ sacked, as to the reasonableness of (subordinate assistant or deputy or whatever ‘appointee’ Khuzani) granting David Pecker & AMI immunity Sept 20 2018, as if to move up the “chain of being,” as it were, to Individual-1s or Co-Conspirator-1s ‘believed’ to possess absolute immunity.

    I am only 50 pages into the transcript of the oral arguments, but it sure looks like Gorsuch has been guiding Sauer along a path toward spelling out dire ‘need’ of a SCOTUS decision extending the “safety” of ‘presidential’ immunity to subordinates, appointees, co-agitators, and con-conspirators (around p 8, p 19, p 21, p 50), until, at least, Congress not only passes laws (criminal statutes) which specifiy application to presidents, but also impeaches & convicts (etcetera delays); perhaps also retroactively applied to convicted subordinates, appointees, & coconspirators, and any currently under investigation.

    But further, Sauer & Gorsuch seem to specifically hone in on doing so to protect the safety of “carrying out” presidential powers, functions & responsibilities by *delivering false or incomplete information*, both to Congress and the president! They don’t mention Pecker there (to say the least), but I keep thinking about Adam Liptak’s coverage of Reed vs Town of Gilbert.

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