Another Stupid Idea to Exacerbate the Clusterfuck
Markos likes the idea Mark Halperin claims is being floated.
–Michigan’s 156 delegates would be split 50-50 between Clinton and Obama.
–Florida’s existing delegates would be seated at the Denver convention—but with half a vote each. That would give Clinton a net gain of about 19 elected delegates.
– The two states’ superdelegates would then be able to vote in Denver, likely netting Clinton a few more delegates.
Now, any "solution" to the clusterfuck needs to fulfill one goal and ought to fulfill another. The goal it ought to fulfill is to swing the delegate counts in favor of momentum if, indeed, either candidate is picking up momentum (in other words, break open the close race for delegates). This solution might do that–if Florida’s and Michigan’s super-delegates swing heavily for one or another candidate (and they are currently swinging heavily for Hillary).
But the other–far more important–purpose for a "solution" to the clusterfuck is to enfranchise the voters who were screwed by their state’s clusterfuck, and to find a real measure of the support for Hillary and Obama in each state.
I won’t speak to Florida in this case–I’d rather leave that to Florida’s voters.
But consider how this work in MI. A recent Rasmussen poll actually found Hillary and Obama tied, 41-41 (though that obviously means there are a lot of undecideds). So the 50-50 split wouldn’t be terrible–except that it would transform a meaningless vote into an equally meaningless vote. It would, once again, deprive Michiganders of working to elect their favored candidate. It would deprive Michiganders of actually having a voice that mattered.
Which would mean the super-delegates would have a voice that mattered that much more, since the possibility of dirty fucking hippy citizens affecting the vote would be nullified.
Only super-delegates would get a meaningful vote.
But those are precisely the geniuses who got us into the Clusterfuck in the first place! So you punish the dirty fucking citizens of Michigan, by withholding their ability to cast a meaningful vote. And meanwhile, you make the super-delegate votes more powerful!
I think non-Michiganders simply don’t get the levels of raw anger present here–anger directed at these same super-delegates who, according to this genius "solution," would pawn off the punishment for the super-delegates own Clusterfuck on ordinary voters.
This "solution" is not a solution at all. It allows the super-delegates to avoid all punishment for their rashness. But it still leaves Michigan voters–the ones we’ll need to win the state in November–with no meaningful vote.
I think any good solution will involve NOT seating the superdelegates. These are idiots that started the clusterfuck in the first place; they are therefore the first ones who should be punished for it.
I continue to be a bit perplexed about “difficulty” of repeating the primaries–or at least having caucuses–in Michigan and Florida. Yes, I understand that they’re both big states. But they’ve both already had primaries once this year. Doing it again two months from now shouldn’t be that hard. Will it cost them? Sure, but they were clearly told that early primaries wouldn’t count, and they had both early primaries anyway. In the real world, you have to pay for dumb things like that.
I object to this statement.
But those are precisely the geniuses who got us into the Clusterfuck in the first place!
How the hell do you figure that? Who besides the DNC Rules Comm. should make and enforce the Rules?
I’m bit tired of all the bloviating about superdelegates.In California we elect our DNC members and the elected officials answer to the Democrats in their districts.How should they vote? For their own choice?The way their district voted? The way the state voted? all are aware of the pressures surrounding the issue.Most will vote their conscience.
Somehow I assumed that there would be some punishment, and the best one would be to take away all superdelegates from the states. But how do you get a meaningful vote at this stage? Who can vote? How?
But anyone associated with screwing it up in the first place, definitely needs no vote. Do the superdels vote now?
Excuse the OT, but the feds aren’t done yet with Eliot. They’re pouring over his campaign accounts purportedly trying to verify whether the governor used campaign funds, rather than his own money, to pay for sex.
I wonder how many degrees of separation Bush’s Department of InJustice will try to take this one incident. And they say rugby players eat their dead.
http://www.iht.com/articles/20…..pitzer.php
Petty cash. Petting cash. Easy mistake.
Seriously, though, this is all smoke and mirrors. There will be no charges. They’re already full of shit on the wiretap. His lawyers are going to eat them alive.
I don’t think Bush’s DOJ gives a rat’s behind about actually charging Spitzer. Their investigatory investment – outrageous when you consider they’ve investigated virtually no violent or financial no crimes in Iraq – has already netted one Democratic governor.
Imagine the data they’re collecting every time they conceive a new avenue of crimes Spitzer might have committed. This avenue gives them that much more access to detailed campaign accounts of the Democratic governor of Hillary’s home state, a bulwark of Dem voters in the Northeast.
As Rumpole of the Bailey always observed, every one of us might be guilty of anything. Whether there’s a reasonable basis to start looking is a different matter altogether.
I doubt they’re getting much. A lot of this information is public to begin with, and the “private” info they can already get illegally. They’re just blowing smoke. They’d really like him to cop to something and take themselves off the hook, and I think that’s what they’re trying to do here. I don’t think he’s going to bite. He won’t be charged with anything, and anytime anyone asks, they’ll just say the investigation is still active.
I agree in part, but I would not underestimate the intimidation value of the entire enterprise.
Having seen the difference between “draft” preparatory work by various professionals – lawyers, accountants, auditors, bankers, etc. – and what’s actually filed for public consumption, I would not be glib about there being nothing to find (though it may not relate to what they say they’re looking for). Besides, we only have the feds’ word that they’re looking at the junction between campaign accounts and what Spitzer’s paid for sex.
Besides, why bother only sifting the illegally gathered digital info when you can get it directly, or confirm it in a way that allows its legal public use or disclosure? Cheney is famous, for example, for getting info under the table, then orchestrating its disclosure by others when that proves useful. I think it’s just how they work and they wouldn’t consider doing it any other way.
I think many attorneys would say that Michele Hirshman, Spitzer’s lead defense attorney at Paul Weis, and an excellent attorney who also used to be with the Public Corruption Unit in the SDNY, clerked for Pierre Leval at the 2nd Circuit, who is carrying the ball in this prosecution of the escort service, who was his #2 when he was AG wants to get this over as quickly as possible. She is assisted by Ted Wells and a former head of the Criminal Division in SDNY.
For Spitzer, Lawyers Both Formidable and Familiar Prepare to Do Battle
But without venturing into ground that we have already worked pretty well, that I know somepeople would consider tinfoil that Spitzer was targeted and he was targeted with a manuever Mike Garcia learned from Chertoff at DHS’s ICE, using SWIFT to find targets and then go in search of a crime rather than the SARS cascade, I would love to see Hirshman, Ted Wells, and Mark Pomerantz go after this prosecution and shake loose the real mechanisms by which Spitzer was targetd via discovery if they could.
From John Farmer, former AG in New Jersey
The more I look at the tapes and affidavits that I have access to (many aren’t released) I don’t see the elements of a Mann violation, and I’ve already argued that. There is plenty of evidence that Spitzer didn’t play an active part in getting the lady QAT/aka Emperor’s supplied from NYC to DC. He was told the lady who would be spending time with him was Ashley Dupre aka Kristen, aka Ashley Youmans and he was somewhat surprised and happy. He didn’t say it’s a deal breaker if the lady is already in D.C.
I know Farmer and others argue he paid to transport the lady to D.C., but had they told him she lived down the block from the Mayflower he would have paid for her cab/ride. And outside of predator prosecutions or prosecutions of people forcing women into prostitution, I haven’t seen the Mann Act used to go after a john by anyone, and certainly not the Feds.
I doubt he used campaign funds for prostitutes–I don’t think his bad decisions extended there or pubilc resources, or they are going to be able to pin a lot of “official trips” morphed into getting laid on him.
I wish someone would explain why this is so difficult. It seems to me that both MI and FL went outside the existing rules and ran a primary. Thus it was like a warm up – like taking a dry-run SAT to hone your test taking skills.
If you shoot a duck outside duck hunting season that’s called poaching. If you are caught you pay a fine. And you don’t get to keep the duck.
Now, the state Democratic party is assured that their voters know how to vote and the state parties – the same ones that violated the rules – should schedule a real primary and pay for it.
The irony of course that has been well commented on is that a late primary is now more important than their fake primaries ever were. MI and FL get the chance to trade in a dead duck for a golden goose (Oh tortured metaphor – are you ready to talk?) What is the downside (for the state parties not for the Clinton campaign) of holding not a mis-characterized “do-over” but a for real, “not-a-dry-run” primary?
Ask yourself, what would NH do? You can bet your ass they would schedule another primary.
If 50-50 is unfair and it is, how about giving Hillary the 55% she won and the remaining 45% can be allocated to her opponent? The problem with this solution is that when the vote was cast, Michiganders couldn’t vote for Obama.
I think the solution is to run the Democratic primary again in Michigan and allow only those who voted democratic in the first primary to vote again.
It was Michigan Democratic leaders (with support from Sen Carl Levin) voted to move the date in order to put the issues that affect Michigan on the front burner in selecting a democratic candidate.
The DNC responded by deciding…
I think the Democratic Party needs to get it’s shit together.
There’s another problem: The Democrats told the people of Michigan that their votes in the Democratic primary wouldn’t count. Many Democrats therefore made the quite reasonable decision to vote in the Republican primary.
Yea, I thought of that too but I decided if Michigan has an open primary, the results will be tainted by Republicans who voted in the Republican primary. Consider allowing non-Republicans to vote in a second primary such as green party, miltia party and democratic party, independent and not-affilited. You risk alienating the moderate Republicans that are willing to ditch McSame for the dem nominee. Then there’s the matter of financing it.
I think the solution is to split the delegates 50-50 and deny accreditation to ANY of the Michigan and Florida super-delegates. They’re the cause of the problem, so they’re the ones who should be disqualified!
Bob in HI
I agree wholeheartedly, or else don’t split the delegates at all. I don’t know what is more surrealistic, Clinton and Granholm’s suggestions that they play Michigan and Florida as if they were real, or Cliton’s assertions that she has any experience whatsoever that has her passing a commander in chief test when everyone of her surrogates seems to have had a sudden laryngectomy when asked to power point the bullets of this experience.
At the risk of starting a Hillary vs Barack free-for-all, does anyone else get the sense that Hillary’s people are pulling out all the stops to prevent a re-vote?
to prevent a re-vote? Not necessarily. I think one would try to get the solution that would be to one’s benefit, whatever that might be.
It think Hillary needs to close the gap on popular vote, delegates and consequently momentum.
Yes, but ANY sort of re-vote will benefit Obama and hurt Hillary.
If that’s true then you’d be right, her campaign would be vigorously seaking an alternative solution.
The most appropriate “punishment” for having an early primary is to let them have a a late primary at their own expense. How can the DNC object to that? I say seat the delegates and strip the superdelegates, as Marcy suggests.
California moved their presidential primary up from June to February (partly because some state legislators unsuccessfully tried to tweak the term limits laws to benefit themselves) but we are having our statewide direct primary in June. Yeah we are havin’ another election even while the state is so destitute that the schools are sending layoff notices to thousands of teachers.
The only thing stupider than having two elections when one would do is to have an election that wasn’t supposed to count. Isn’t there some sort of sense of fairness at the core of our elections are has it totally disappeared?
The politicians who made the decisions to have elections that wouldn’t count and violate the rules ought to be held accountable. Perhaps they could sit in dunking tanks for few months at a dollar or two a throw until the costs were recovered. Or maybe they could personally clean a few classrooms every night for a few years to pay back the state.
OT, the voters of MI and FL deserve qualified representation in Denver; there needs to be some practical penalty. But some of their “representatives” do not.
Are there any rules or is this an ad hoc negotiation between the DNC and each state’s Democratic party’s top staff. If it’s ad hoc, I vote to hell with the “super” delegates. Seat half the delegates – the collective penalty for their screw up – and split them fifty-fifty. I imagine that means if there are multiple rounds of voting for the nominee, at some point, the gloves are off and they can vote as they see fit.
Short and sweet, EW!
There doesn’t seem to be a viable solution that will satisfy either side. So I say leave it alone and here’s why. No Mulligans. Democrats participated in getting into this fix in both states, and they have to learn there are consequences that do not turn into Pixie Dust.
I hope someone will correct me if I’m wrong here, but in both states Democrats made the clusterfuck. In Michigan they drove it–they built it, they shoved it through, they were told what would happen and they said we’re going to clusterfuck anyway, and when the time comes we know we can unchlusterfuck. Well, how’s that working?
In Florida they cheerled it no matter how much someone claims it was a conspiracy by Charlie Crist and their Republican dominated legislature to screw with them. They could have prevented this from happening in Florida, or Michigan, by simply waiting their turn–why the hell should a state shove up in line to try to artificially screw with the chemistry/momentum of the primary anyway?
I appreciate EW’s underscoring the resentment shared by the people of Michigan. Who wouldn’t feel exactly the same way? There need to be consequences for the people (Michigan’s Super Delegates, people like the Dingells, Levin, Stabenow if she was pushing this and who did this to Michigan, and no one should be more for rotating regional primaries in the future more than a Michigan voter.
I know little about Granholm. I’m going to assume that she was pushing the clusterfuck with relish unless someone corrects me. I know she has said, like Clinton that making Michigan a bannana repubic totalitarian government state where both candidates agreed to get off the ballot and not cammpaign and one candidate stayed on the ballot and calling the clusterfuck kosher is completely peachy keen with her and her candidate. Someone should wake Granholm up at 3AM and tell her that’s not going to fly.
Senator 3AM thinks it’s just fine of course to roll with the clusterfucks. But I also know if a company conspired to take over the country as it has in the TV show Jerico and appointed her President, that’d be just fine with her. For Clinton the key is whatever works to put her in the West Wing. And when anyone gets a copy of the “Commander in Chief Test” I know they’ll pass it on to me. Someone needs to explain to Clinton and the rest of Britney America that we don’t vote for state wins, we vote for delegates so if you lost the vote in Texas by several delegates, you didn’t win Texas. If you only won Ohio by 10% points you didn’t win Ohio by very much, and you got the delegates that you did win, and you still are so far behind that you can’t possibly win on Delegates.
Someone should further explain to Clinton that her narrow victories in most states she did win, don’t mean jack shit as to the general election for a variety of reasons. Polls don’t show her winning the big states against McCain and do show Obama winning them.
Penn and Wolfson, the world’s two dumbest multimillionaires top themselves every day with absurd statements.
Senator 3AM wants to keep the clusterfucks changing the rules on the fly, or making them up as she goes along. Someone should literally wake her at 3AM and tell her to come off that bullshit. It’ll never happen–she knows that, but she continues to waste her time and everyone else’s who repeats it. She then says she wants some kind of mail in or other do-over in June. A mail in is frought with a panoply of problems, and Obama has told her it’s not going to happen.
I do get a smile out of Clinton’s notion though to adopt a Bannana Republic Totalitarian solution in Michigan, where she’s the only name on the ballot and that’s “y’now y’now y’now” way cool as far as she’s concerned. You could vote for Clinton or hey you could vote for Clinton. That’s not what a democracy does, but that doesn’t matter to her. If you stayed home because you didn’t want to vote for Clinton or you didn’t opt to participate in the clusterfuck in Michigan, tough says Clinton.
I’d be happy to be corrected quickly if I’m wrong, but in each state, the Democrats were prime facilitators. I’d like to see the rules the DNC made and both campaigns agreed to followed. Any punishment should punish the Super Delegates–since they bear the responsibility for what they did; they were told what would happen if they did, and they went ahead anyway. That way, hopefully next time around they’ll move to regional rotating primaries, or Florida and Michigan Democrats will learn a valuable lesson. Hopefully next time around they’ll move to regional rotating primaries, or Florida and Michigan Democrats will learn a valuable lesson. Wait your turn to vote, or there will be consequences and they won’t vanish into Pixie Dust. If Michigan wants to split 50-50 and extrapolate a meaningless vote into a meaningless vote, then great. They should do it and move on. That way the rules don’t change in the middle of the game or 3AM doesn’t get to make them up.
I know this is escaping most people, but Clinton and her Penn/Wolfson/Williams brain trust are positioning her perfectly to be John McCain’s running mate. She has made every point McCain and the RNC wants made. I love that idea. I hope he picks her. It will make it that much easier for Obama to win the general. He’ll beat McCain, but he can beat a McCain/Hillary ticket going away.
Here’s something that no one wants to talk about much but it’s becoming an ‘elephant’ in the primary. Some states are polarizing as to black white voters the way Missisippi did. If Obama is in the general, the black vote will come out in force the way they left the plantations when slavery ended. If you turn on any African American or “urban” radio station now, people are flooding the switchboards saying this.
If Clinton loses the delegate vote, but Super Delegates somehow gave her the election which is becoming less likely by the minute, they will stay home. This includes the youth vote that is voting for him. This is the warning they have telegraphed to Ickes. Ickes has said many times in the last four months, that Obama’s voters will forget they got screwed, and they will all rally to a Clinton general campaign. That’s just not the case. I don’t know how the youth vote will show up because they never have yet despite all the hoopla in a general. Maybe they will surprise people this time.
Getting behind the Democratic candidate is one thing. Marcy does an outstanding job every time she posts at giving compelling reasons why this should happen. But there is a huge difference between getting behind the Democratic Candidate who wins the delegates, and being expected to get behind one who does not. It’s that simple, and I hope people get the message.
Blasphemy! Fighting words!
Clinton cross dressing with McCain?
That dance won’t stroll.
A Hillary Supporter
See my @36 for some insight on Rethug strategy from Rethug circles : if the superdelegates give it Clinton, they’ll call Florida Foul on us.
If Obama is ahead and the superdelegates trump the process and choose Clinton..the “raw anger” that EW referred to will rip any potential unity apart. Guaranteed! How can we forget the Democrats lost in 2000 (to a Supreme Court Judicial coup) and in 2004. If Hillary and Obama do not pivot real soon in a united fashion and harness the new enthusiasm that Obama has stirred up and the experience of Clinton drawing on both of their strengths. 2008 is not a given. If they do not turn the spotlight on McCain and the failed and disastrous policies of this administration during the last seven years this incredible opportunity could be turned into a loss.
I’d like to add, that some of us would, if Clinton somehow were allowed to steal the election via super D’s or via Michigan and Florida, vote for the downticket candidate–those new and better Congress people that so many of the firepuppies keep wishing for as a mantra. I have a friend who would be just that who is mulling going after a Republican Senator and he’s a very known quantity who knows how to campaing and is very popular. So some of us would definitely vote in the down ticket congressional part of the ballot. But the vast majority of people, and take a close look at Southern states, say that if Clinton were to be the candidate and didn’t win the primary via delegates, they will stay home.
A substantial part of the Democratic vote that is needed to win the general in the South is African American. Some people say that is the major part of the Democratic vote in the South, but I disagree with that because historically African Americans simply don’t turn out nearly as substantially as they could and should. But this time, the 3rd black since reconstruction can be the candidate. If he is, you will see a paradigm shift in the black vote in every state, and in the South particularly.
It would be a bitter pill for many voters in Michigan and/or in Florida to have their state represented only by superdelegates who did not have a valid popular vote to weigh as a measure of voter will. I don’t know the rules. Is there any possibility that only superdelegates will represent either or both states?
It would, once again, deprive Michiganders of working to elect their favored candidate.
I live in a state (PA) where my primary vote in 2004 did not matter whatsoever. The nomination was decided almost two months before I voted. What is the difference between my vote not counting then and yours not counting now?
I would like the votes of every person to matter, if possible. But I’m a little less sympathetic because my Presidential primary votes never matter.
Does anyone here know Markos? If so, what kind of guy is he? What are his goals? How would you rate his intellect?
What’s the most graceful way for a delegate to cast .5 vote?
There is no reason to continue to cling to a 50-50 solution except that it is quick and dirty and seats the two states. It does not settle the issues of voters angry because their vote “didn’t count”.
After reading all of BTD’s posts I don’t think Obama can afford to be seen as the one who scuttled the revote. More people might question whether he has integrity and it would hand the two states to McCain. I still think that the Obama camp may want to draw the Hillary camp out so that they definitely commit to a revote and give up the option of seating the delegations as is.
So I am not tempted to write it over there and get banned, Florida is TOAST! A lot of teams did not exactly help themselves today. UMass may be even more toasted.
Yeah. UMass lost a heartbreaker. Can you bribe a few NCAA tournament
honchos.
Great quote yeaterday… “When Julius Erving arrived on campus from Roosevelt, Long Island, he was 6 foot 3. When he left, he was 6-7″
Now, that’s coaching!” Jack Leaman, super coach.
Callin’ BMAZ — … brackets, bubbles, betting and trash-talking at the Wheelhouse… cracking open a few brewskis, to take a break from some dizzying events?
Let’s see if we can get bmaz to do a tournament trash talk thread
Belonging to a political party is like belonging to a bowling league.
Most people just want to bowl but even the league bowler who only cares about beer and bratwurst still gets a vote to say who gets elected treasurer and league secretary of the Donkey Bowling League. Let’s say Bowler X rolls a 300 game in his Tuesday night league and wants official recognition from the US Bowling Congress (a patch!) only to find out that his league secretary has been the spending the dues at the Emperors Club and the USBC won’t recognize his league or his perfect game because the local DBL has violated the terms of it’s USBC membership by not keeping current with dues. The recourse isn’t an appeal to the US Bowling Congress, who can’t help you out from under your own irresponsible actions. The recourse is to fire your league secretary (who’s incompetent and shady behavior was enabled by your disinterest) and next time pay a bit more attention to who is running your league. Bowlers and Democrats are responsible for the quality of the league/party leadership they elect under open rules. If those leaders screw up they have nobody to blame but themselves.
The Florida Democratic Party was soliciting comment from registered FL Dems on their new “vote-by-mail” plan. I wrote in with the plan to A) stop with the plans, B) abide by the ruling of the Credentials Committee in Denver, and C) stop misrepresenting this mess as something that just ‘happened’. Accept the fact that the FL delegation to the DNC calendar committee agree to these rules and the party precedent for punishment (and remedy) was clear based on how Delaware was treated in ‘96 and the legal citations from Judge Hinkle’s ruling against Sen. Bill Nelson’s lawsuit were also clear. I should have just wrote STFU and stop making things worse.
IMHO Florida should tell the Credentials committee that FL Democratic leaders screwed up and humbly accept the ruling of their peers from other states.
we need to get some rhetorical guidlines around here, or something
that headline is HIGHLY misleading
when you say “clusterfuck”, I just assume you’re talkin bout our dear presnit
I spent 5 minutes trying to figure out why the Democratic Primary in Michigan would “exerbate” george (and I ain’t zactly sure what “exerbate” means in the first place)
after 5 minutes, I drew a total and complete blank (which is strange for a person such as myself, with an overactive imagination and no sense of proportion or absurdity)
now I realize what it is like to be george bush
it was horrible
you don’t want that to happen to you, or your children, or somebody else’s children (cept maybe george’s children, but I get the idea it already happened to them)
so you gotta find a better name for you state’s electile dysfunction, ew
cuz I can’t keep up this channeling of george bush an all
for a second there, I tell you, I swear, I was ready to bomb Iran or something …
told ya it was scary
If one or other of the candidates were running away with this one, you can be sure no 50-50 proposals would be floating about. The 50-50 split is simply arbitrary. It does not reflect any actual votes in those states, it is not even based on contemporary polls of registered Democrats. 50-50 is just an arbitrary choice, which has nothing to recommend it (over, say, 60-40), except that it does not change who wins.
I don’t see how you come back to the Democrats of those states with that and say, “We’re giving you a voice by enacting a compromise that ensures your votes don’t affect who wins.”
Moreover, it’s likely that some of the superdelegates would use the results of the invalid popular vote as justification for their votes, further enraging voters who feel disenfranchised.
On super delegates, this word in from a Dem after a meeting with local well-connected repubs.
Shorter her, and the cruelest cut. If the Superdelegates impose Hillary, the Repubs will accuse us of doing a Florida on Obama.
http://www.dailykos.com/story/…..547/476420
BTW, with apologies for a personal addendum. The BlueBayState has its Redhead back, or at least the part of her that is not jetlagged from 24 hours of travel to lands climes and political systems not like ours, except for the presence of BSRH Jr.
When her (not Jr.’s, of course) head works better than her fingers are doing presently, she will be rejoining the constitution-protecting conversations.
A starter, weak she admits:
Tmr. is the ides of March. With all the legal and character assassinations of the past week, is a real one possible? Will Obama’s pastor be the venue and vehicle?
You’ve gotta ex.ac.er.bate the clusterfuck and e.lim.i.nate the people’s choice….(apologies to Frank Sinatra’s ghost and some unknown lyricist, prob’ly Sammy Kahn)
There’s so much BS reporting going on with these contests. Most of the caucuses that McCain lost are going to give him 100% of their delegates, entirely against the will of people who turned out to support other candidates. The same will happen in GOP primaries if it’s allowed under the rules (which I’m sure it is in most states). I’m not picking on Republicans here — the same thing happened in 1992 — a voters picked somebody other than Bill Clinton and then as if by magic at the convention the delegates went to the presumptive nominee.
At the moment, my preference (which should count for exactly nothing) is that we do nothing. MI and FL broke “da rules” and that’s that. Sucks to be you and all that.
On the other grasping member, I want to see this part of the story get more national play:
I think non-Michiganders simply don’t get the levels of raw anger present here–anger directed at these same super-delegates who, according to this genius “solution,” would pawn off the punishment for the super-delegates own Clusterfuck on ordinary voters.
“The House Republican brand is so bad right now that if it were a dog food, they’d take it off the shelf,”
– retiring Rep. Thomas M. Davis III (Va.)
Yep
O/T
This Boston Globe story is interesting….
http://www.boston.com/news/nat…..ht/?page=1
Just a bit…
Hmmm…retroactive immunity…now this…
Noted on TPM…
http://emptywheel.firedoglake……ing-pfiab/
EW @44
Thank you!
I was gone part of the weekend of March 1 and missed this post. Of course, your write-up is much better than the MSM and of course, weeks ahead of them.
Thanks. Sorry to take up space on the thread with old news! Thanks for linking me “back”.
Oh, don’t get me wrong, I’ll ALWAYS take a Charlie Savage link! Just wanted to point you back to earlier discussion.
I don’t!
But I really meant what I said. Your work is SO much better than the MSM and with out a doubt more timely –by weeks. I would have much preferred to read your piece first! I felt MSM violated!
I cannot tell you how many times I’ve tried to begin a discussion about one of your threads with someone only to have a blank face look at me and say, “What the *&&^^%$# are you talking about?” I then print off your thread, have them read it and enjoy their look of amazement weeks later when your thread topic FINALLY hits the MSM.
I like a good Charlie Savage story now and then too. If I had to pick, however; I’d pick an EW thread over a Savage story!
My honest opinion…
When you read EW you’re light years beyond what the MSM who don’t have her talent and background produces. That’s one of the obvious tangible educational advances that the web and the blog realm afford to you. If you’re listening to the incredible fiction on the floor of the House rightnow, then watch it reviewed through EW’s lens and MSM’s lens, you come to appreciate it all the more.
Peter:
Could not agree more. That’s why I hate being away and missing an opportunity to catch-up on my reading of EW and FDL. As news goes, this is my “O2 and H2O– my news knowledge survival!”
WO and Leen
I agree the “raw anger” portion of the story needing to receive more attention. When we are looking at record voter turnout across the country for Dems, this disenfranchisement could ripple more than expected…
I sat and watched the crowd and the MSM press during all of these events (after talking with folks as they stood in line). Young folks are truly engaged, the older white gals are really stirred up for Hillary (saw older women crying as Hillary spoke, my mother included), the crowd( 10,ooo) for Obama in Columbus was so diverse with age, race and gender it really blew my mind, the excitement in the air was measurable. Although it is disappointing when the most repeated reason for supporting Obama is simply “hope and change”
Watched the MSM at the Hillary event. Did not witness one of them interview a local. Just typing out their spin.
I did a lot of work “on foot” in Columbus. Experienced much of the same. I did notice, as I “dug” into the “hope and change,” individuals were able to speak on issues.
It just confirmed for me, more on the issues please.
May I ask, where in Ohio you are located?
Athens.
The more I think about it doing nothing is the best solution. It sends a message to the Democrats in Michigan and Florida who pushed this in both states, regardless of their posturing now. While the Democrats try to blame Republicans for this in Florida, that is not the real story.
We are sensitive to the plight of the people in Michigan who were forced to standby and watch their so called elected leaders expend their energy on this clusterfuck when they should have been worrying more about the economy’s impact on their people. But that doesn’t justify changing the rules in the middle ot the game to try to help Jennifer Granholm’s candidate Clinton.
Granholm is lying to the people of Michigan that Clinton’s victory in Ohio changes anything–there is no such thing as a “state victory.”
Ohio didn’t “change the landscape a bit” at all. Any delegate gain Clinton got was quickly erased by Obama’s Delegate Victory in Texas (he is still gaining them as a type this in Texas and California). Granholm knew exactly what she was doing when she pushed to move Michigan’s election. Granholm is an adult woman and over age 21.
Granholm Helped Build the Clusterfuck
There is a delegate count in each state according to the rules that they make and the DNC agrees to. The rules in each state are byzantine and different, and like the voting machines they need to be fixed, standardized, and put into the framework of rotating primaries. I predict they won’t by 2012 and the voting machine fiasco won’t be changed either.
The people have what’s left of democratic elections to get rid of Stabenow, Levin, the Dingells, (they can strip Debbie of whatever power seats she holds and get her out of the pic in the future). Let the chips fall where they may.
It’s necessary to send a message to Senator 3AM–whose 3AM activities will be confined to calling Burkle’s plane soon to find out where Bill is on it–you don’t change the rules of the game because you’re losing and desperate to try to win the game by virtue of the rule changes, and that it’s time to get out of politics.
Many of us are looking for someone much better than Clinton to run against her for Senate in NY when that election comes around so that we have someone who will think what the hell she is doing in the middle of the day when she votes to kill so many people in Iraq with no plan whatsoever. Two word phrases you’ll never hear out of Clinton’s mouth, Penn’s, Maggie Williams, or Howie the Wolfson–”Iraq Refugees” or “Dover Coffins” piling up,or “money hemorrhage” out the wazoo.
Say No to any change in Michigan and Florida. Rules are not going to be changed in the middle of the game because Senator 3AM is losing and desperate. The sooner she is off the TV screens, the better off this country will be.
EW you sound righteously pissed! “the raw anger present” in South Carolina (was there for two weeks before the primary) and in Ohio (he spoke at St Johns arena)fest in Columbus . Heard Hillary speak in Dayton with my 80 year old mother, Bill, Chelsea and Michelle Obama came to Athens Ohio. I talked with hundreds of voters at these events. The “raw anger” is out there and the candidates better pay attention. If it comes down to the superdelegates this raw anger could get ugly.
The last news I saw said that the House was planning an hour’s open debate on the FISA bill beginning late this morning, with voting this afternoon. Is that still on?
I think so. And if you didn’t know this was the House debate, and thought it was the Senate debate, you wouldn’t be able to tell the difference in the Republican disdain and disregard for your civil liberties and your Constitution. This is a historic insight and biopsy into how low the regard is for you by these Republicans in the House.
Thank you, Pete. I hadn’t thought to try radio — got it now.
I’m in Canada, btw. I don’t think that Republicans mainly know I’m here, although I’m sure many would disdain me if they did.
From Cboldt’s blog:
Also:
“Democrats Dig In for Surveillance Battle” by Siobhan Gorman
H/T Cboldt. Another excellent way to keep up with not only the Senate (and the House) and several important issues is Cboldt’s blog. He has links to articles and his own lists that keep up with judicial appointments, etc. that are outstanding.
TPM is saying Obama’s campaign is okay with a new primary in MI (but Florida is another case). I have sympathy; as a resident of CA, this is the first primary in years where we actually mattered to the candidates.
Looks like Michigan is going to have a re-vote. Hope it works out. That’s going to put a LOT of pressure on Florida to get its shit together.
sorry to wander O/T here,
but BREAKING — conyers has
quietly released some DoJ docs.
and of course, i have images
of the juiciest bits! this is FISA
stuff — so light up your reps.!
okay, one and all — need more
ammo to fax/mail/send to your
reps. and senators re FISA?
consider this full-sized image
from page 73 of the just-released
2006 DoJ OIG report on FBI abuses
of the NSL provisions, and the pat-
riot act section 215 “business
records” provisions. these are abuses
to which the FBI has already admitted!
[the FBI ignored the order of the FISA
court judge, and simply issued its own
NSL — without any judicial review!]
just click on the smaller image
to enlarge it, read it through, and
print it, and send it out! easy!
light em up!
p e a c e
Thanks for the links nolo. The hits just keep on comin’.
FBI Continues to Make Illegal Blanket Demands for Phone Records
Also even the pages of the Conservative Murdock Wall Street Journal:
SIOBHAN GORMAN March 10, 2008NSA’s Domestic Spying Grows As Agency Sweeps Up Data
NSA’s Domestic Spying Grows As Agency Sweeps Up Data
EPU’ed from NRCC Ward discussion (with excuses for any errors all due to jetlagged brain.
If anyone i still up on this topic, I’d like some dot connecting between the earlier coverage and todays, with some why now speculation. I am more jetlagged that ever in my life of traveling so my search skills are in the cellar. Did it break when Ward was fired in August, only to be rehired as a consultant, at least in the progessosphere? That’s my impression. and if it did, was there a coverup that will hopefully be worse than the crime as it will require subpoenas from the next spine-bristling congress and, we hope, none executive privilege withholding president. (Although I worry about The Hil being an annie oakley/Ethel Merman, “anything you can do, I can do better” person.)
I will tell you after last night’s local party meeting — 3 hours, mind you, needing a very firm hand to keep it on track — Marcy is actually understated in her representation.
The rank-and-file members are FURIOUS about this mess, utterly outraged at being betrayed. They haven’t yet made the full connection as to who exactly is responsible, but when they do, LOOK OUT.
I ask that folks outside of Michigan (and Florida, too, for that matter) use caution when pasting the label “Democrats” on the parties who steered us into the Clusterfuck-that-is-our-primary.
Who are “Democrats”? Marcy? Me? we’re dues paying members, we’re activists in the local party. We didn’t ask for this mess.
If you mean the DNC when you say “Democrats”, know that these are people who are elected by the state parties across the entire U.S.; this is a point at which things can get a bit murky, since machine politics can produce only those delegates to the DNC that they want, instead of grassroots representatives. But the entire DNC voted for the rules we are supposed to operate under; it’s not left entirely up to the machine politicians of any one state. It’s hard to game the entire enchilada.
The haste to be first primary was part Democratic party innate enthusiasm, and partly disdain for the lame conduct of policy as exercised by the 7 years of Bush2. So in that sense it was neat early to witness machine politics MI at some sort of confluence in synchrony with slow, evenly divided FL seeking to reform its own chad dinged image. It is reasonable that the national Democratic party organization seeks to remain responsive to both candidates, especially in the classically tumultuous process as it is currently, wherein the pole position in the race has changed as primaries progressed. I doubt any plebiscite will be fair or feasible this late in the year for MI’ers and FL’ans wishing for a full spectrum of choices in a genuinely important and balanced primary. Rather, the likelihood of a contentious convention looms because of the scheduling of the MI and FL primaries. I wonder how the ticket would appear if MI and FL continue to have their delegates uncredentialed; but I doubt that sanction would be deployed by national party leadership; instead, the most likely is some form of partial image saving as is currently occurring. To me it is a sign of health of the Democratic party when political contentiousness is very public and unpredictable; it is the ungainly character of the party, that it is in touch with the people and slightly undisciplined. I know this is even more discomforting to voters in MI and FL; maybe the dissention within mid level party officials in those states will help reform their apparatus for the next election. I worry much more about who McCain might select for veep, though the Republicans are going to lose in the autumn if the voting machines actually work. If the voting machines freeze, McCain as president would have a few years in which to commission his constitutional convention, as where the Republican party leadership has said it intends to take the public dialog is way beyond what our system of checks and balances could legitimize as currently configured.
Rayne said it perfectly
If you mean the DNC when you say “Democrats”, know that these are people who are elected by the state parties across the entire U.S.; this is a point at which things can get a bit murky, since machine politics can produce only those delegates to the DNC that they want, instead of grassroots representatives. But the entire DNC voted for the rules we are supposed to operate under; it’s not left entirely up to the machine politicians of any one state. It’s hard to game the entire enchilada.
Give it a rest.