KSM Refuses Lawyer Because of All the Legal Same Sex Marriage in the US

Try to get your head around this.

David Nevin, fresh off his victory in getting Geoffrey Fieger acquitted of all charges, has volunteered to donate his considerable legal skills to represent Khalid Sheikh Mohammed in his death sentence Show Trial. But KSM doesn’t want the help, he says, because the Constitution permits same sex marriage.

”I will not accept any attorney. I will represent myself,” Mohammed said. “I will not accept anybody, even if he is Muslim, if he swears to the American Constitution.”

Mohammed said he recognized Islamic shariya law and rejected the U.S. Constitution, in part because it allows for "same sexual marriage and many things are very bad.”

It’s true, I suppose, that the Constitution permits same sex marriage–as in, does not prohibit states from performing them. But it in no way affirmatively protects it. Do you think we ought to tell KSM that same sex marriage is only legal on the hippie coasts–and may be overturned in California come November?

On the one hand, if that were to make him feel better about the Constitution (at least the Constitution of the huge number of states that prohibit civil unions and gay marriage), then he might accept Nevin’s legal representation. That might prevent KSM from being killed for plotting the 9/11 plan–or at least give the trial more legitimacy. And, frankly, since KSM seems intent on turning himself into a martyr, there’s something to be said for doing everything we can to prove that this nation is not really all that friendly to gay marriage.

Defiant, confessed 9/11 mastermind Khalid Sheik Mohammed went before a military judge on Thursday, refused his U.S. defense counsel and said he would welcome a death sentence.

Mohammed, 43, became the first of a succession of five alleged co-conspirators in the 2001 terror attacks to reject the legitimacy of the first U.S. war crimes tribunal since World War II.

”In Allah I put my trust,” the Pakistani intoned in Arabic from a Koran, then personally translated the verse into English for the benefit of the audience.

Judge Ralph Kohlmann, a Marine colonel, asked Mohammed whether he understood that the crimes for which he was accused are punishable by a death sentence.

”This is what I wish — to be martyred,” Mohammed replied in the broken English he learned as an engineering student in his 20s in North Carolina.

On the other hand, it is true that the Constitution does not prohibit gay marriage.

But what if we said to all the homophobes out there that the quickest way to ensure they get to kill KSM is to permit gay men and women to marry nationally? What would they choose if they had to choose between sharia-like legal prohibitions on love–but they’d have to settle for life imprisonment. Or, they could let a lot of people who love each other marry, and in exchange they could have their dead terrorist?

Undoubtedly, they’re not going to have to choose–they’ll get their dead terrorist without having to reflect on the back-handed approval that said terrorist gave to this country’s widespread hatred of gay men and women.

But it all makes you realize, yet again, how this Administration’s eagerness for Show Trials will backfire in so many ways. No one believes that the trial of KSM (who mentioned being torture during his appearance today) has any great legitimacy. But it’s tailor made for KSM to very publicly recruit the next generation of terrorists.

112 replies
  1. WilliamOckham says:

    What an absolute mess. I can’t imagine any way to unwind this stupid, pointless, inhuman travesty of justice. This will do nothing but inflame the violent radicals on both sides and humiliate anyone with a sense of dignity.

  2. oldtree says:

    Is religion the first or last line of defense for people? Some say they done did it because jesus (2nd base, Atlanta, bats left, you know) said to. Some think that just because they are gay, they should be punished because moo ham sandwich said so. Now, what religious leaders aren’t gay you ask? darn good question. Let’s ask their toys!

  3. Petrocelli says:

    KSM represents the fundies of all religions … who ought to be put in Mental Asylums.

  4. danps says:

    Hi Marcy. OT but I posed a question for you over here. Basically, re your Henry Waxman post do you think he’s willing to provoke a showdown over it? You say “it sure seems like Waxman is intent to find out”. Do you think he’ll go to the mattresses over it? The next time that happens with this Congress will be the first.

    • emptywheel says:

      Waxman is clearly suggesting that not turning over the information is tantamount to covering up for Bush and CHeney–in potentially criminal obstruction. Of course, that’s not why Waxman ostensibly wants the documents. But I think he’s trying to force Mukasey to think of his OWN legal position before he rejects this request again.

  5. Mary says:

    KSM and Hagee.

    I’m actually all in favor of the world being rid of KSM as soon as possible, but not at the expense of what it has already cost. Still, IMO a slightly better tactic for KSM’s PR crew would be for him to refuse counsel untill his kidnapped and disappeared children are produced by the Decider and Child Abuser in chief.

    • bmaz says:

      Heh, wish he had brought up the children today too. Seriously, if I was assigned advisory counsel, I would motion up some sort of combined insanity/torture defense. The man wants to represent himself and wants the death penalty; he’s fucking insane by definition! Has the added benefit for being a vehicle for putting the maximal amount of torture evidence in the record too.

      Former Fed @6 – Regrettably, death may be a better avenue for him.

      • lokywoky says:

        KSM may be wanting to represent himself and supposedly wants the death penalty – but that, in his case, may not represent insanity as it would in a ‘normal’ case.

        KSM has been tortured, including waterboarded. He has been told that his children either were tortured/were going to be tortured as well. The fact that he ‘confessed’ to about fifteen things he couldn’t have possibly have done means that he was trying desperately to save the kids. And since the kids are no where to be found – he probably believes he has failed. And that is where the death wish comes in.

        The fact that he doesn’t trust anyone from the US to represent him – well, after what he has been through – including the loss of his children to torture/kidnapping/whatever – who can blame him?

        In his shoes, I might want the same things – death because I couldn’t live with myself for not protecting my children, and to represent myself – because I absolutely cannot trust my torturers to do a fair job.

        What’s so hard to understand?

        • bmaz says:

          I don’t know if he is insane or not; quite frankly I don’t care. If I were his advisory attorney, it would be my obligation to give him the best and fullest defense possible and make the most comprehensive record possible. Ergo, you make the effort.

        • lokywoky says:

          I totally agree with you. I honestly don’t know if KSM is actually guilty of anything other than being tortured at this point.

          But he deserves a defense, and not one hamstrung by the MCA or any other stupid trick this administration claims passes for justice.

  6. FormerFed says:

    Maybe after this many years in United States jails, he thinks death is a better avenue for him.

  7. danps says:

    Do you think he’ll do more than send sternly worded letters though? It seems like Cheney et. al. are playing hard ball and Congress is playing whiffle ball.

    • Petrocelli says:

      I don’t know if I’m reading too much into this but watching Jello Jay’s presser today makes me think the Dems are going on offense.

    • emptywheel says:

      I think Waxman has several options if he gets blown off. At the least, he can subpoena this and force Mukasey to claim that something which didn’t rise to executive privilege in the first go-around and which, between Libby’s GJ transcript and Scottie’s book, has been released already, is privileged. We’ll see, but I just think Waxman’s got a stronger hand than Conyers, for several reasons.

      Of course, once Fitz tells HJC whatever he’s burning to tell them, I suspect Conyers will have quite a bit of leverage with Rove, unless Mukasey starts an active investigation into Rove’s role int he firings.

      • danps says:

        Then please knock these straw men down:

        1. Waxman issues a subpoena, Mukasey claims privilege (even if it is absurd) and basically says “let’s go to court again.” Courts have been very reluctant to get involved in these tug-of-war battles between executive & legislative branches. Game: Mukasey.

        2. Mukasey announces an active investigation into Rove’s role in the firings. It becomes the most lethargic activity in history and dies of neglect. Game: Mukasey.

        How could Waxman strategize (I hate that word) around it or what more forceful action could he take?

        • emptywheel says:

          I don’t think they’re straw men at all.

          I guess the question is, does Waxman want to turn Mukasey into a target, and does Waxman want to move beyond the fiction that this is just about classification (though it is very much about that).

          But if Mukasey says no, Waxman starts making stinks about Mukasey actively helping to cover up illegal activiies. Mukasey knows he won’t be here past January 20–if he really thinks he is risking his own legal position, I think he’ll think twice. Of course, that requires Waxman that this is just about classification and not coverups and obstruction of Fitz’ investigation.

          Remember, too, that Scottie McC is almost certainly abotu to give sworn testimony before HJC in the near future. Once that happens–and any pretense of privilege is shot–then I think Mukasey will be in a tighter position even if Waxman doesn’t come after Mukasey directly.

        • darclay says:

          . Mukasey knows he won’t be here past January 20–if he really thinks he is risking his own legal position

          This is what has surprised me about Mukasey, I know he is conservative, but to risk your good name…once it is lost..! I would think above all he would want history to remember him for being fair and just, following the letter of the law as well as the spirit.

        • 4jkb4ia says:

          Then would a law banning the public wearing of yarmulkes be “score one for the non-fanatics?”

          /4jkb4ia’s husband

          What this shows is the non-fanatics’ fear of the social pressure of the fanatics.

        • darclay says:

          That seems to be any country there are always some a__ __ hole that thinks he is the end all. That goes for the extreme rightt or left of Christian faith also.

        • Petrocelli says:

          That article is about a sustained fight between fanatics and non fanatics ruling Turkey.

          Wearing yarmulkes is not about subjugating women the way Burkas/Headscarves do …

        • skdadl says:

          Petrocelli, I hate to disagree with you but I’m going to disagree with you.

          On the subject of so-called “secularism” in Turkey, people should read novelists Orhan Pamuk (Nobel Prize winner) or Elif Shafak, or any other respectable Turkish intellectual who genuinely believes in freedom of conscience.

          There are many struggles going on in Turkey, most of them complicated by games played by the CIA and like agencies. For a long time, though, “secularism” has been part of the ideology inherited by the Turkish military and judicial elites from Ataturk’s revolution, and those are not nice people, Petrocelli — I promise you; they aren’t Western liberals. They are exceptionally repressive, and their fights with Erdogan revolve more around his genuine populism and liberalism than any superficial concerns about ethnicity or religion. Erdogan is the guy who wants to take Turkey into the EU — he is the liberal, whatever his religion. The secularists are the guys who hate him for doing that, and for doing it well so far.

        • Petrocelli says:

          Skdadl, I wouldn’t learn anything new if no one ever disagreed with me and I thank you for the insight.

          I’m of the opinion that doing away with repressive customs brings Turkey closer to European ideals, of which I am in favor; I remember the fight to abolish the death penalty over there.

          I can also see where the oppressors might use this to prevent girls from attaining higher education … it will be interesting to see what follows. I’m sure the EU is watching this intently.

        • skdadl says:

          I wonder this about a lot of people, and it isn’t just their good names. We already know how Mukasey is going to go down in the history books — at least I think we do. But I can’t believe there won’t be trials, some sort of international accounting for what has happened during the Bush admin. IANAL, so I can’t imagine how that is going to happen, but I am convinced that it will.

          I also don’t believe that KSM is an exact equivalent of any North American bigot. The end result sounds so much the same, but the cultures and the causes are so different.

        • Petrocelli says:

          The culture might be different superficially but the core belief/cause is exactly the same … be exactly as I am/think or be unworthy of living …

        • 4jkb4ia says:

          “I also don’t believe that KSM is an exact equivalent of any North American bigot”

          Hear, hear!

        • Bushie says:

          What the actors in this Administration have done to the Constitution, the Country and our reputation, was done with a type of zeal found only in the most fervent religious zealots. Perhaps a Church of the Bushies will come from the ashes of our republic.

  8. sailmaker says:

    Same sex marriage!!! OMG! If it were not so serious a circumstance, I’d say something awful. Still, one can not help but see that torture can make the victim spout anything – including ‘Publican talking points. I wonder if KSM does not see waterboarding as ‘punishment’ (it is not, according to Scalia)?

    Shutting up for now, Sailmaker

  9. texasdem says:

    So my newly minted CA marriage rights are going to get KSM the death penalty?

    Boy, talk about a two-fer. I’m pretty broken up about that one…

    • emptywheel says:

      He’ll get the death penalty anyway.

      But because you can get married in CA, his death will have less legitimacy and be more of a terrorism recruiting tool, if KSM continues to seem smarter than the guys running the courtroom.

  10. pdaly says:

    Gay marriage? Egads!…Seems as if KSM, had he been born an American, would have happily voted as a Republican–maybe even for Bush or McCain.

    Or our Republicans, had they been born as ’scary Islamics,’ might have evolved into Al Qaeda sympathizers (or worse), given their anti-gay marriage pronouncements, Sharia law and all.

    Alas, the publication of KSM’s (?) talking points reminds me of the last US presidential election: Bin Laden’s October Surprise was publicized to the world instructing Americans (in Red states)to vote for Kerry for President and not for Bush–if they knew what was good for them.

  11. darclay says:

    EW i’m reading the Working group report is this the work sheet so to speak of JAG, or DOD or who.

  12. PetePierce says:

    We need superlative attorneys like Nevin defending KSM so that the egregious violations and punctures of the legal system get detected and show cased by the most capable people.

    On a somewhat related note, my bookie service puts Boumediene v. Bush to be announced next Monday or at the latest the Monday after that.

  13. Mary says:

    bmaz – maybe you could even work some Ashcroft quotes into that motion?

    A Golden Ashcroft:


    “Some have asked whether a civilized nation, a nation of law and not of men can use the law to defend itself from barbarians and remain both civilized and free. Our answer is unequivocally ‘yes,’” Ashcroft told members attending the National Religious Broadcasters’ convention. “Yes, we will defend civilization and yes, we will remain free. We will preserve the rule of law because it is the rule of law that keeps us both civilized and free.”

    He said it all with a straight face, even while heading off to principals meetings to discuss human trafficking and experimentation.

    • bmaz says:

      And along the way, like Henry Blake with Radar, furiously scribbling his name on authorizations and opinions that he was “out of the loop” on.

        • bmaz says:

          Gosh golly, the whole play out the primary string until all the votes were cast, give your respective speeches and then intelligently and deliberately move the concession to winding down to unity process along like clockwork almost makes it seem like the two candidates have been in agreement and on the same page on all this for at least a week, if not more. Craazzy man!

        • Loo Hoo. says:

          Really cool, huh? It will be so refreshing to have adults in charge.

          And since it’s petition season, here’s the Leahy/Feinstein anti-cluster bomb petition.

    • PetePierce says:

      Breaking he’s going to tell her again–she can try to support him constructively but she is out for VP and she’s not going to play a role in his administration.

      Bill could face criminal liability if he releases the Library contributors.

      Psst Loo Hoo–wanna really talk dirty on a libral blog. Wanna say 3 really dirty phrases noone will talk about or utter. They were the opening salvo in getting the Clintons the hell out of the way in an Obama administration and the story the media refuses to tell as they gush about Hillary and Barack getting down at her little Norma Rae is it trailer? Is it a studio apartment? Gee it looks like a big ass house in a plush neighborhood in DC?

      Do they order out? Will Hillary be knocking back her favorite beverage Maker’s on the Rocks, or will she be doing boiler makers? You think she’ll try to spike Barack’s blue berry muffins with some high THC content grass and then call the cops and say he was trying to rape her? I don’t have them sitting on the couch. Will Hillary drag a dress out of moth balls? You think shell be doing the S&M thing with fishnet thigh highs, Manolos and a whip or is she into Jimmie Choos and maybe she’ll wear her Sex and the City outfit.

      At any rate she’s out. Barack and Michelle and Axelrod aren’t having any part clusterfuck of the exponential amount of Clinton baggage that makes Jeremiah Wright look like Billy Graham.

      What she needs to be told is to make a clean break from the limelight and bow the fuck out Friday and to tell her completely over the top nutcases to quit the Denver Denver petitions and whacko who used to be a decent lawyer Lanny Davis to cut the Denver shit and cut the petitions for VP.

      There is no place for the Clinton baggage in this electino with a real chance to get someone capable back in the White House. And it’s going to be make clear to her tonight.

      Library Contributors to Clintons
      Clinton tax returns 2007
      Ron Burkle million dollar deals revealed with Clintons

      • bmaz says:

        Gee Pete, and I thought you might pop by and confess that I was exactly right. And without the vitriolic horseshit. Guess not.

        • PetePierce says:

          Here’s the thing Bmaz. There is not vitrolic bullshit. I’m giving you the news straight from the lawyers who are vetting VP candidates. She was disqualified

          1) Because of their baggage and the fact that they would be a liability to his campaign and the media is missing the story.

          2) Clinton is leveraging because Bill has told her to, and she has no real leverage.

          3) She was told and frefuses to believe she has no place in the future administration and is not going to be on the ticket whatever the public is fed.

          When Holder told Bill they could submit her for VP but they would have to submit all the vetting documents, Bill’s direct reply was “Fuck You Holder.” As you know Holder was DAG of the Criminal Division when Bill was in da house.

          There is nothing vitrolic here–not even close.

          Had you been correct Bmaz, and had she been thinking straight she would have quit thinking in terms of leverage, and what role she wants to demand. She would have told McAuliffe to stay home with his wife and 5 kids in his plus DC neighborhood and not to come to NY or at least not to introduce her as the next President on Tuesday night. That was total horseshit. And her nutty comment that South Dakota ended the race and she got more votes was also fiction.

          At some point in life, you don’t get to keep making your own rules. That point happened to the Clintons Tuesday night and I can put together a collage of Hillary’s Greatest Hits from this campaign and they are simply ugly.

          I don’t know how you can possibly justify the comment that McCain was ready for the Oval, she was but Obama was an empty suit and had only a speech as much as you know about McCain.

          That was an over the line comment beyond the pale.

          Her conduct in the last 96 hours was bizarre. I understand her disappointment. It comes to all of us. But this was a Presidential Race and she could have and should have conducted herself and people like McAuliffe as adults. And the crap she leaked to her witless and way over he head cheerleader Andrea Mitchell who is just glad to have a job on TV was idiotic.

          Note that Hillary Rosen who was a very firm and open talking head Clinton supporter who used to be general counsel for the RIAA has come out strongly and said Clinton’s conduct was clearly a series of poor choices and her speech Tuesday night was diametrically opposed to what she should have been saying. And I agree with Rosen on this point.

          For what it’s worth, there is a real story and it will take the lethargic dull witted media a month to get it out but the Clintons were told to vet and release those documents months ago by the Obama attorneys and they said “Fuck You.” They were told agian last week and they said “Fuck You” and both Bill and Hillary have told her she is out as far as Obama’s ticket or his cabinet or any prominent job.

        • PetePierce says:

          The Clintons whose campaign finance manager was in the NYT yesterday issuing a demand of the VP slot for Clinton as a requirement for hooking up Obama with her fund raising have been told point blank “I don’t need your money.” I again reject your hedgefund corporate contributions and your contributions from lobbyists and we are insulted by your fuckhead’s demands that you get something for money.”

          I think that’s how whores work isn’t it?

          At any rate the Obama campaign has told the Clintons in no uncertain terms to stop their finance managers from peddling contributor money for some office that she is not going to be offered to be purchased for Hillary.

          If you can show me where you think I’m inaccurate, fine, but the story is going to come out and I am right on point with the vetting resistance, the liberal blogs refusal to explore any of it (and I wouldn’t spend a nanosecond of my time trying to read the crap on Republican blogs ever any more than I would shut myself in a dark closet and try to contemplate how paint dries).

          There is a lot of focus on Obama meeting Clinton at her house and endless focus of the media on her place in his administration, and I am telling you what’s really happening.

        • PetePierce says:

          BTW do you have any information on Fitz’s control of his case file, investigations, interviews and any place Mukasey would have in Fitz’s discretion to release it. The Libby case is over, although he could technically be indicted for something else. Rezko is over.

          And given all the rhetoric before Walton on whether Fitz could appropriately run the prosecution and in the appellate briefs/apellee briefs at the D.C. Circuit, I don’t understand what role Mukasey could possibly have in the Special Counsel’s discretion as to his material, and frankly don’t see why Fitz won’t release the interviews in the Oval Office unless as LHP says he may be patiently still building cases in his role as Special Counsel where the office has not been closed.

        • PetePierce says:

          Rezko is over except for the appeals to the 7th Circuit and the cert. petition after they deny it.

        • bmaz says:

          Well, and the sentencing. My best guess is that Mukasey still has ultimate control because Fitz was still considered to be under the DOJ and, furthermore, Mukasey has no conflict like Ashcroft did (arguable Gonzales too, but for different reasons).

          Oh, and by the way, what I have been saying all along is based on pretty damn direct information, and the framework for the way things have transpired was what has been generally contemplated all along (for at least a week or so) by the candidates. The bleating and posturing by their respective staffs and supporters is either an intentional facade (for a few) or ignorance based upon the crazed bullshit being purveyed by the media (for most).

        • PetePierce says:

          I need to brush up on Fitz’s material whatever it is. As LHP referenced, there is only so much in the public domain. And the more I think about it whatever emails Fitz has, and the rest of his material, he may have reasons for holding it tight to the chest if he is contemplating building a future Special Counsel case (cases) related to Plame or the US Attorney firings and what I call the highjacking of Main Justice.

          Maybe I’m confused about what you’ve been saying all along. I’m not trying to beat up Clinton, but I’m objectively saying what I’m getting that’s pretty direct and many of us have been urging the Obama campaign to vet the Clintons in those 3 areas I’ve repeated and they have refused to cooperate.

          I thought you told me the other night; stay cool; she will concede gracefully.

          I remember the Teddy Kennedy Carter fiasco where Carter chased Teddy around trying to get Teddy to do the hands of victory pose and Carter still blames Teddy for his loss to Ronnie Raegan in 1980.

          I don’t think she is needed to concede gracefully or otherwise. But from the moment she began behaving strangly she began marginalizing herself.

          I know what her scorched earth supporters think. I only have to read Jeralyn’s blog to see Jeralyn and Bit Tent Democrat still pushing for President Clinton in the face of Presumed Nominee Obama and Presumed Nominee McCain.

          And besides that I have to see Big Tent D’s futile attempts at swaying “Oh and the Lakers are going to beat the Celtics–too athletic for them.” In the game I’m watching that doesn’t seem to be what’s happening on the floor in Boston.

          I made my medical diagnosis and she’s confirming it–I don’t care what she does in public at this point, because her actions confirmed my diagnosis perfectly.

        • PetePierce says:

          The Clintons nastily refused to cooperate on releasing the tax returns, Burkle financials,and Library financials and paper trail of the library money and Burkle money to their bank accounts and their campaign and the Obama campaign has been swift to obliged them in spades.

          The Clintons might think they have leverage, but they are confused on the leverage polarity.

        • bmaz says:

          So far, if you cut out all the stupid noise, and there is an absolute ton, it is actually progressing smoothly and appropriately. She and Obama both know what they are doing and they are going to get this right, I assure you. All the crap is making it difficult though. I do think there should have been a little more discussion in her speech Tuesday night about the historic nature of what Obama had just accomplished; but in the long run, that will mean very little. Give both of them the air and they will get it right. With that, I am done on this.

        • PetePierce says:

          You’re right about the stupid noise. It’s exactly like Sports Center/the networks broadcasting the game during the half time of the NBA playoffs. They have to fill a lot of airtime on cable.

        • bmaz says:

          These are two smart and savvy people, they know what they are doing if everybody would just chill and let them do it. Her most ardent supporters, and all the campaign staff, were all still pretty ginned up, and crikey, they did win a primary Tuesday night. The decompression could not be immediate; but it has been rather rapid in just two days. Thats a good thing and by the time they are done on Saturday, my guess is that almost all of her supporters will have been transitioned onto Obama, and they will get the rest over the remaining time between now and November. And that is the goal. She will do whatever he wants her to do as far as campaigning, and he ought to have her literally pounding on it; she has become fairly accomplished. We are in good shape; the asinine noise notwithstanding.

        • Fern says:

          Thank you for these comments. There really was not good reason not to run the thing out to the end of the primaries – and from what you say the transition will be well handled. Plus she could not in all conscience drop a complete concession on her people on Tuesday.

          Thanks again.

        • PetePierce says:

          She could have Fern, and she should have, and the dysfunction will do long lasting damage to the Clinton brand and Hillary.

          I know the truth must not be comfortable for you, but sitting Shiva and being ambiguous was not the appropriate thing for Hillary to do.

          A few points:

          She still crazily tries to retain her former delegates, even after the two candidates aren now squaring off. I don’t know if you’re aware of the rest of these points.

          1) The Clintons have been explicitly informed that she is not going to have a place in the Obama administration. That means Bill is not as well, at least anything like a cabinet position, even an ambasadorship which she wouldn’t prefer to the Senate if she can hold on in NY during the re-election.

          2) There has been a complete void, like the disappearing island in Lost whhen it moved, of discussion miraculously on most liberal blogs including FDL of these other points.

          3) Obama perceives the Clintons as too much baggage and too much damage. He believes they would mobilize the Republicans and bring out voters against him like no other force. And he’s right. His advisors all agree.

          4) The current baggage as I’ve pointed out needed investigation and the Clintons stupidly refused to let it be vetted by Obama’s team. They have told her that seals the doom of her VP hopes if she had any and since she is soon going to say she didn’t, I don’t know what’s in her head there.

          As I’ve said, the Clintons were told by Eric Holder and the vetting attorney staff that they had to completely release information to them.

          This consisted of Income Tax Returns 2007
          All Burkle Sources of Income and where it was deposited
          All of the tangled tentacles of the incredible list of Library contributors from Bill’s deals like the $31.5 million contribution after Bill swung the uranium deal.

          The Clintons defiantly refused to release this information and like Newsweek’s Johnathan Alter has correctly explained tonight on several shows on MSNBC the Clintons have lost their touch.

          Hillary was well aware of how her husband picked Gore for VP, and she knows there was a careful deliberative process, and no one dared to jam Bill Clinton while he took his time at arriving at a decision. I know that there was no one close to Bill once he won as a competitor, but tragically one person was dying of a brain tumor, Tsongas and the other was Ralph Nadar who had already secretly promised the Clintons (Hillary managed to leave this out in her references to Bill’s campaign) that he would stop any negative advertising towards Bill in March. Hillary lied and said Bill clinched the nomination in June and that’s simply not true and this is not classified. Anyone who knows what happened in that campaign then, knows thats the fact.

          And if Hillary did want a position in the Obama campaign, she killed it with her mouth and her strategy long ago.

          This is not vitrol. And as far as Ican remember I have not seen one post at FDL that even touches on these facts–not one and it’s simply amazing because they have to know at least that these 3 areas are minefields for anyone running for an office if the Clintons try to keep them secret. One of the reasons is that it’s feared that many of the library contributors have earned their money in all kinds of interests in places like Dubai, and there is a nexus with Burkle here that were anti-American interests.

          There is also substantive info that Mr, Burkle and his close friend who is often on the planes with Burkle Jeffrey Epstein often precured underaged women and claimed he used them for theraputic massage. This is not the kind of innuendo that Obama’s campaign wants or needs. They were villified with Jerimiah Wright and Clinton nastily fanned those flames with her comments that she doesn’t think he subscribed to them (but implied she was not sure) just as she played games with whether he was Muslim as if Muslim would somehow be wrong or religion should be anywhere near a political campaign instead of far separated from affairs of state.

          I don’t know if you saw the email Hillary released to Wonkette, witholding it from the press because she hates the press.

          June 5 2AM Email from Hillary Clinton to Wonkette

          Hillary Clinton announces to Wonkette at 2AM that she’s dropping out and ’supporting Obama’ but not to the public or the press

        • PetePierce says:

          Fern it should be made clear to you that Obama has always supported Clinton running “this thing out” until the end of the primaries.

          What Clinton is doing up to this second is devisive, because while she has sent the private email I linked for you to Wonkette that most of the media haven’t picked up yet, including the best political teams (according to them) on TV C and MSNBC, Clinton is vascillating on whether to try to hold onto her deligates until Denver and then have someone symbolically nominate her at Denver as in “Denver Denver.”

          She has been told by everyone in Congress and the Senate that this is devisive, counter productive, and will not be tolerated. She has “fouled the nest” for herself in the Senate with this narcissistic trademark song and dance, and it’s not going to be tolerated by the Democratic party. Those aren’t her delegates any more, and she’s not going to stay in the picture until Denver. There is nothing whatsoever smooth about what she’s doing, and I did not ever say anywhere I didn’t support her finishing the primaries although she explicitly lied Tuesday night and after Crazy Terry McAuliffe introduced her as the “next President of the United States” afteer Obama clearly had won the number of delegates needed and the Super D’s were flooding just as I said they would last week, she lied and said that South Dakota was the last primary to report and she went out winning the last state. It wasn’t the last state, and she was still clinging to her nut case math that excluded Washington, and other caucus states, and excluded the Virgin Islands, Guam, Montana, and absentee voting which all went strongly for Obama.

          You can portray people who are telling the truth insensitive or vitrolic if you like, but you sure don’t seem to mention those three big problem areas where the Clintons refused to release information not only to newspapers like NYT who actually endorsed Hillary before they got a severe case of buyer’s remorse, but they refused to release the financial information sought by Obama.

          You don’t get on a Presidential candidate’s ticket by forcing your way on, or getting your campaign finance chairman to tell the New York times above the fold on Wednesday morning in the early AM that a requirmenet for finances the Obama campaign doesn’t want to touch is to force her onto the VP slot.

          Her fund raising is precisley the fund raising as to big donors that Obama campaigned against and McCain lied and said he was against in McCain Feingold but sure reached out to get particularly in May.

        • BayStateLibrul says:

          I have the utmost respect for Hillary.
          She WAS put through the meat grinder.
          My admiration for KO sunk… does anybody have the backdrop
          to this story. She must have pissed him off.
          In any case, as Ross Perot said, “Let me show you the charts”
          The race was a virtual tie, she gathered 18 million votes, and
          won significant large states.
          She has spunk. She was a woman with a mission, and she got hammered
          by the press.
          She basically said to the MSM — fuck you I’m not giving in to
          what you guys want.
          Great woman, her.

        • PetePierce says:

          Do you respect that Hillary is still trying to hold onto her delegates to have a devisive rally at Denver? Do you respect her statement that she was experienced and McCain was and they were qualified to be President,but never said how, and Obama wasn’t. That would be a great soundbyte had she not been rejected as running mate months ago and again in the last 72 hours and again at DiFi’s (Cave Oon Fisa and Mukasy forever’s house? Those multi-millionairesses/senatresses stick together don’t they?

          Do you mind answering these questions and getting the answers to the 3 key financial areas that the Clintons refused to give the Obama campaign attorneys and accountants for vetting them?

          20 Questions the Clintons Wouldn’t Answer but the 527s Would have asked had she had any part in an Obama Campaign or Administration

          Do you have the financials for this escapade?

          After Mining Deal Bill Swung with former Butcher Dictator A Financier Donated to Clinton and Clintons Refused to Release this List of the Hundreds Million Slush Fund

          The answers to them give me a completely antithetical view than “untmost respect.” I know the truth. And you cannot and willnot be able to separate her from Bill. It’s Billiary for ever. Did you respect when you had been in the Senate 7 years and couldn’t even identify Obama’s Foreign relations sub correctly and sent out McAullife and Wolfson to scold Obama for not supervising Afghanistan when he is on no committee that does that and she is on three in fact?

          Why when many of us suggested that these be part of the vetting questions when former Clinton Deputy AG Eric Holder who heads the VP Vetting Committee for Obama put them to Hillary and Bill did he get a “fuck you?” The Republican 527s would have made them a show case of questions that would make the stupid failures McCain is buying into of Wright, Ayres, and his profile as a warrior who wants to continue a steady stream of Dover coffins and 12 billion dollars minimmize.

          They would be all over that Libary foundation list of scumbags who have contributed millions of dollars that comprise that personal fortune. Do the math–the Clintons haven’t sold enough books to amass a fortune of between $100 and $200 million dollars.

          So I know you don’t mind answering the questions that are ignored by the liberal blogs which are the only political ones I read.

          1) Income tax 2007 return –where is it?
          2) Ron Burkle millions of dollars in vague business enterprises enshrouded in an enigma which used to be the stock classic pathology book description for little sophomore medical students when they were first introduced to Sarcoidosis in their path textbooks. Why wouldn’t the Clintons release it to the Obama accountants and attorneys for vetting? We suggested to them to ask for all income from Burkle and it’s elliptical paths of distribution by the Clintons. Nada came forth. They won’t be in this administration come 2009.
          3) Library Foundation same thing. Nada. They won’t be in this adminstration come 2009 did I mention that.

          Clinton fundraisers stupidly offered to hook up to the Obama campaign quid pro quo if Hillary was VP. We aren’t about to have her baggage thrown at us. We all know how hard it can be to clean dog shit off your tennis shoes. We don’t need to step in more of it.

          We don’t want the baggage of Burkle’s Air Fuck One and the under aged girls who have been paid to travel on it. Pure and simple. Republican 527s already have commercials running on Jeffery Epstein and Ron Burkle and middle America doesn’t know who they are but they sure as hell would.

          I have quite a different view but I respect yours. If I had known nothing about her, I would have disrespected her completely because of her campaign tactics, but I think I’ve really outlined them enough. I can tell you on the ground in planet earth she has damaged her senate irreversibly in the US Senate for her campaign conduct, and as you wrote this, she has still done something completely unprecedented. She has tried to hold onto all her delegates while disingenuously sending emails that she will concede and has not made one statement about releasing the delegates. She wants to remain in the limelight as the distracting center of the story instead of letting Obama be the focal point as he campaigns to save you from the eight years where you have been hurt in all the ways that MarcyWheeler you, and all the rest of the very prescient, articulate, bright commenters here tell you you’ve been hurt.

          I’m going to venture that you have been hurt by Bush and his administration in more systemmic ways Bay State Librul than ever in any eight year period in your life.

          I try but cannot keep up with the acronyms that are spying on your ass. I thought I was pretty good at it, but Marcy Wheeler is superlative at it.

          Her worst claim was that she had more expeirence. It tickles me if someone says she has pletnty of experience and you prompt them with two words “It is_________” it is precisely like asking certain Senators and I have done this right to their face at small gatherings to their embarassment asked a couple of Republican Senators to explain to me how the surge is working in Iraq. They muttered a couple stock phrases and I cut them off and said “excuse me, I don’t mean the stock platitutdes Gillespie mails out to you I mean I have this information fresh from reporters who have been there five years and it’s yada yada and doesn’t square with your desultory platitudes.” I then got a clucking “thank you” and sat down to some applause where Republicans were applauding me (in a mixed group not a Republican rally) because they hate the Iraq fiasco too.

          So you don’t mind answering these questions do you? Hillary and Bill refused to answer the financial ones and it cost her any chance at an office in the Obama administration and the Clinto liability and her ugliness in the campaign cost her as well.

          I keep harping on this so that her supporters will understand since it’s not mentioned at all by most of the “best political teams” –sure must be a low grading standard on TV. And to his credit, KO who has alienated Hillary supporters because they aren’t real friendly with the truth in any matters that have truth and nexus with Hillary Clinton as the heading (in all other matters they still get the truth at least on the FDL blogs).

          KO reported briefly on what is a real happening. The Clintons have been told for months that if Obama beat her and he has, soundly, that if she wanted to be considered for any office, she and Bill would have to release all their financials and they have been unified in shooting Holder and thevetting committee of lawyers with Caroline Kennedy on the committee as well a solid bird/finger/middle finger and Bill told Holder fuck you we don’t need to be vetted.

          Bill was told and Hillary was told find another path because you aren’t going to be part of this administration.

          These aren’t people btw who are middle aged and the husband’s company has suddenly downsized, the wife’s company has downsized, and they’ve been screwed out of their pensions like many people at Delta Airlines where the Republican Senators from their state have somehow seen fit to take money from your pocket and subsidized the airline who is still keeping a corporate profile donating your money to charities. I find that a strange arrangement because Delta has gotten Republican drive federal legislation out of Congress to screw their long time employees as to every pension benefit, including health care. I see it up close.

          The Clintons have between $100 and $200 million dollars that they are defiantly not using to pay their creditors. What they have been told is not to count on my money donating to Obama to bail out the vastly rich Clintons. And we have told the Obama campaign we are going to hold further giving until we know that none of that damn money goes to bail out the 200 millionairess who has had more poses than the fucking gong show.

          I know that you understand I don’t read much or know much about Congress but it’s my perception that the Blue Dog Democrats would spit on Hillary’s pandering gas tax holiday, and there is virtually no one in Congress or the Senate who supports the stupidity of it. When you promise something it has to have a chance to get through Congress or it’s pandering. And cutting highway funds didn’t work to well –ask the families of the dead from the bridge in Minnesota.

          $4 a gallon has had some small positive results. SUVS are starting to stack up in lots. I agree with Tom Friedman that a gas price that’s high and at a minimum high is the only thing that will change behavior and it seems that is going to have to be at $12. Your President hasn’t produced oil from Iraq that was purported to allieviate his holding hands with someone from Saudi Arabia and kissing his ass and coming up empty. Condi Rice has been a fuckstorm of a fuckup and a brazen liar with contempt for Americans.

        • PetePierce says:

          You mean the way that all media outlets print and the TVs that you have on in your home are right? How are you directing that they move on Bob? Calls to the network vp? Calls to the newspaper publisher? I’m looking at the hiwaii newspapers jumping up on my notebook and the hawaii tv stations websites and they aren’t talking about who was in that coffin in the last episode of LOST.

          And btw I have only responded to posts when I have carefully ferreted out the information and I know my sources are correct from the Obama campaign whatever Bmaz’s sources are from the Clintons. I know what I pointed out seems to be like a cross for a vampire or a stake in the heart for a vampire for the liberal blogs because ole FDL has not mentioned one scintilla of the Clinton financials and since they didn’t vet the Clintons you can bet the Obama campaign did.

          I responded only when someone made a statement that I was essentially stupid and didn’t know what I was talking about.

          And keep both your eyes open. Clinton is going to be sent back to the Senate, or she can sulk at home but she is going to be isolated and told to get back to work and get out of the stories in this campaign.

          She is crying out for the attention. She doesn’t want to let go of the limelight or her delegates and both will be taken from her cold clutching hands. She is behaving like a spoiled child and it is hurting the Democratic chances.

          She has no right to any gurantees. She ran she lost.

          The Patriots have no right to the gurantee of this year’s Lombardi trophy. The Lakers have no right to the guarantee of any paper saying they won last night.

          I know the Clintons want to tell themselves they didn’t lose but they did. And many of us don’t care what they tell themselves. Hillary can campaign in her back yard in DC or NY every hour if she likes, but she needs to get out of the way. She is refusing. It is not helping any of her causes and her supporters to continue to divide the Democrats and for her to continue to hope to mount delegates at Denver. She has not conceded. She has not released her delegates. Her email to Wonkette was real. The media hasn’t picked it up.

          I did not see you or anyone else respond to the financial questions that the Clintons were asked to explain by the Obama campaign and I assume you want to pretend they don’t exist and that it’s just fine for Clinton to keep pitching her delegates at Denver.

          She has no right to any guarantees from Obama and she’s not getting them. She’s in the Senate. If she’s such an experienced person–she claims she’s ready from day one for solutions–ball is in her court.

          Let’s see some solutions from Clinton in the U.S. Senate. How bout FISA–it’s sinking fast and you’re not going to be happy. How’s Clinton helping FISA. Why isn’t she back on the Senate floor? Campaign for her is OVER but she hasn’t acknowleged it and gotten her ass off the TV. And that’s intentional on her part.

        • bmaz says:

          Heh, you know, it really is not that surprising in a way. She has always kind of sought out different things and views you might not expect. For what it’s worth (and even from a local boy like me who respects her much, it is not worth a whole lot), the rumor around here has long been that she very much regrets that vote. Toobin pretty much confirmed that in his book The Nine. I have not read it; however, I heard him reading from it and discussing on NPR. I understand it is good; maybe EW will come along and say more; I believe she was just reading it.

        • PetePierce says:

          One book I know a lot of people here would like a lot I have–The Broken Branch: How Congress is Failing America and How To Get It Back on Track by Thomas Mann at Brookings and Norman J. Ornstein at American Enterprise Institute.

          Toobin’s book is very good–and I’ve only read part of it.

          It got good reviews across the board. Toobin has a very good chapter on Bush v. Gore and some inside baseball behind the scenes. Anyone interested should definitely google for the Vanity Fair article written by 3 law clerks who were in the chambers and writing emails and memos back and forth to see the dark underbelly of how the Supreme Couts 9 lawfirms operate and make sausage that has S. Ct. citations.

          There is one story that a lot of people don’t know where Ginsberg decided at the last minute after reading newspaper articles on black voters being turned away and intimidated by troopers and purged with all kinds of lists by data mining companies hired by the stupid bitch Katherine Harris and in that footnote Ruthie wrote that if there were any equal protection violations by the state, it was more likely they were by state and local autho0rities than by the Florida Supreme Court. This enraged Scalia so much that he wrote a memo to Ginsberg, sealed it in an envelop and put it on her desk marked to only be read by her. In it, (obviously someone else read it or she leaked it) he wrote that she was “fouling their nest…and using Al Sharpten tactics. I am simplyamazed that she rolled and removed the footnote, probably because she plays Bridge or whatever with Scalia and valued her personal relationship more than this particular slice of judicial integrity.

          I looked for this in the book and reread the chapter and didn’t find it. It could be in one of O’Conner’s speeches and a lot of people use passages to interpret her later opinions and dissents to say that she is stating in so many words she regrets the vote.

          I have placemarks in a number of legal books, and still wonder why Lawrence Tribe got depressed/demoralized and made a terse cryptic statement that he was not going to write the third volume of his Constitutional Law book. I don’t think it was 911 that did it at all. I think it was something he thought was equally bad–Alito and Roberts and the stupidity and childishness of the fuckers on the Senate Judiciary committee that let them pass as if they had been led out in T-shirts from a line in the Burger Chef and their butts planted in seats on the Judiciary Committee.

          I have bookmarks in Martin Garbus’ The Next 25 Years The Supreme Court, Jan Crawford Greenburg’s (ABC Legal Correspondent who has a blog) and is almost never on the air although she should be interpreting many of the issues discussed here but then it’s TV and I guess Disney thinks it’s better that the people eat pablum and not understand how very fucked up this country is legally) Supreme Conflict whose book is thought by most to have been very timid and to have glossed over many important issues but it’s still interesting.

          Linda Greenhouse’s Becoming Justice Blackmun which was based on an awful lot of research she had while she had access to Blackmun’s papers and I believe only Nina Totenberg got the other access (I think she does a great job covering the S. Ct for NYT but stopping by Harvard Law School and graduating from it on the way to NYT is a pretty spiffy route for a newspaper reporter and she answers my emails.

          Cass Sunstein Republic.com (U Chicago Law who has written several recent books I want to read like Animal Rights: Current Debates and New Directions, Constitutional Law: Casebook and Radicals in Robes: Why Extreme Right-Wing Courts are Wrong for America and Are Judges Political?: An Empirical Analysis of the Federal Judiciary

          9th Circuit Appeals Court Judge John T. Noonan Jr.’s Narrowing the Nation’s Power: The Supreme Court Sides with the States a study in Supremacy or Federalism cases in the S. Ct.

          I have about 50 other books on the S. Ct. with bookmarks in all of them.

          The Politically Incorrect Guide to the Constitution by a law prof. has some nice slants.

        • PetePierce says:

          I would just emphasize that Toobin has written an excellent book and reading parts of it tonight looking for that passage on O’Copnner–but I didn’t read all the pages on her–and rereading the chapter on Bush v. Gore made me put it in my special drawer to try to finish it.

          Here’s the article by the three former law clerks that were part of Bush v. Gore:


          The Long Shadow of Bush v. Gore This article also has a hyperlink to Lazarus (Harry Blackmun’s law clerk I wrote about earlier whose excellent book on the S. Ct. I linked above probably cost him a seat on the bench of the 9th Circuit as the youngest judge there.) He has been an AUSA, a criminal defense attorney after, and currently teaches law in L.A.

          I thought Marcy would like reading this article because it is recent and on the Florida-Michigan decisions before they were done by RBG.

  14. readerOfTeaLeaves says:

    Apologies for the OT, but as near as I can tell this only appeared at NYT website about 10 min ago and may be of interest to wider ranging discussions here (hope Leen’s around):

    2 Top Leaders of Air Force Pushed Out After Inquiry

    “…following an official inquiry into the mishandling of nuclear weapons and components…”


    eWheelies may want to check McClatchy, since they have the better track record, AND ALSO an item about the Pentagon being punked by Iran:

    McClatchy’s title is more frank:
    Air Force officials out over sloppy handling of nuclear weapon (by Nancy Youssef)
    “…after a Pentagon report last month found that the Air Force had systematic problems in the way it guards and transports U.S. nuclear weapons and their components…”

    John Walcott is the byline:Did Iranian agents dupe Pentagon officials? (So it looks like that SSCI report is a ‘must read’!)

    Anyone think those threads about Pentagon agents being ‘duped’ don’t lead elsewhere…? ? Paging eWheelies…!! WTF is going on here?! Just how big IS this clustserfuck?!

    Bob H, you were correct in your surmise that there are deeper waters here than we can readily discern. And more interlinking, interlocked facets to this puzzle than I can count.

    Jesus, Mary, Joesph and allllllllll the saints and angels (!)

    • bobschacht says:

      I heard this story on NPR this morning– at least, I thought I did, but I can’t find it now on their list of segments. My interpretation is that these 2 guys were Cheney-men, part of Cheney’s parallel government, and were engaging in — what’s it called? Black flag operations? So I consider this a good thing, until someone explains otherwise.

      Bob in HI

    • Minnesotachuck says:

      As Pat Lang writes, the Iranians play chess and our team barely knows the rules of checkers.

    • sailmaker says:

      Perhaps this is proof that the Iranians were playing chess to our tic-tac-toe? Actually, this was pretty apparent in May 2004 when we figured out that Chalabi had told the Iranians we had cracked their codes and were listening to their communications.

      • readerOfTeaLeaves says:

        Oh, there were clearly bizarre strands that contradicted one another, that being only one of them. And it was Cambone who shut down the DOD internal investigation; surprise, surprise, eh?

        My heart really goes out to the military and families who’ve lost anyone in this war.
        But the question remains: ‘how big is this clusterfuck? and who all are involved?’
        Cheney’s at the core, but we knew that.

  15. readerOfTeaLeaves says:

    Hey Bob, here’s one of the money quotes in the article by Walcott:

    A top aide to then-secretary of defense Donald H. Rumsfeld, however, shut down the 2003 investigation into the group’s activities after only a month, and Pentagon officials never followed up on investigators’ recommendation for a more thorough investigation, the Senate report said.

    The revelation raises questions about whether Iran may have used a small cabal of officials in the Pentagon and in Vice President Dick Cheney’s office to feed bogus intelligence on Iraq and Iran to senior policymakers in the Bush administration who were eager to oust the Iraqi dictator.

    Okay, I’ll go back to the SSCI thread later on after I read this… and after I breath deeply from the smelling salts.

    Candidates: Feith, Wurmser, Cambone, Perle, Wolfowitz…?
    And how can this NOT tie up with Plame…?

  16. bmaz says:

    From the Forward, via Laura Rozen:

    Many of these past associations emerged in a recent episode revealed during my meeting with Luttwak: that he was shown the infamous Niger forgeries by a friend with the Italian intelligence agency Sismi, when he was working as a consultant to a Sismi contractor named Luciano Monti in the 2001-2002 time frame, but that he refused to back-channel them to the Bush administration. (He never agrees to back-channel intelligence, Luttwak said, and these looked like forgeries to him.) The allegations in the forgeries, of course, became one of the Bush White House’s most controversial casus belli for the Iraq war — and, after proven phony even on the eve of the invasion, among the most embarrassing and politically damaging for the president and vice president, who cited the bogus uranium allegations despite warnings from the CIA not to. […]

    Fairly interesting piece on the spooky/goofy Luttwak; worth a read. Sounds like it took even a tool like Luttwak a whole ten seconds to look at the Niger docs and know conclusively that they were worthless forgeries. So, how much more evidence and proof do we need in order to just consider the duplicity of Bush and his Administration on the Iraq nuke issue, from the very outset, an established fact?

  17. GregB says:

    Does this guarantee a prime time speaking spot for KSM at the GOP convention this summer?


    • bmaz says:

      Yeah, they are going to try to fit him in between Ron Paul and Short Ride Lieberman. Ought to be quite a show. Sure hope KSM gets to see the Wide Stance Stall at the Twin Cities airport while he is in town.

  18. PetePierce says:

    I am leaving this for EW. Edward Lazarus was Harry Blackmun’s law clerk and he wrote a fantastic, extensively footnoted book that caused the Supremes like tight assed asshole Scalia to be so upset they make the law clerks now sign a secrecy contract. It’s an excellent book, I think and should be required reading for every law student:

    Closed Chambers: The Rise, Fall, and Future of the Modern Supreme Court (Paperback)

    Many people say it absolutely cost Lazarus who has practiced criminal defense as well as law clerked at the S. Ct. being the youngest judge on the Ninth Circuit Court of Appeals, and that he was a shoo in as a Clinton appointee until he wrote the book.

    I dunno if they also make them sign in blood–that’s probably a touch from Pinpoint Georgia’s pride Clarence Thomas.

    At any rate Ed Lazarus and others write some thought provoking essays on Find Law’s writ and he wrote one on Michigan/Florida @ the RBG Coral I thought you’d like to see.

    The Long Shadow of Bush v. Gore:
    Are Its Lessons Relevant to the Decision Whether to Seat Florida and Michigan Democratic Delegates?

  19. R.H. Green says:

    Surly KSM can find at least on American lawyer who is not influenced by the US constitution. Anyone out there? Yoo-hoo?

    • bmaz says:

      If he wants an American lawyer who is not influenced by the USA Constitution, he is in luck! The DOJ is chock full o the fuckers.

      • PetePierce says:

        LOL great comment, but at least I hope a lawyer gets through to them that they are not his friend.

      • PetePierce says:

        I should have written I hope some lawyer gets through to KSM that DOJ are not his friends.

    • PetePierce says:

      What US Constitution are you referring to? You mean the historic document we used to have?

  20. freepatriot says:


    they really do hate us because of our freedom

    too bad the repuglitards hate us because of our freedom too

    Gay Marriages for EVERYBODY, lets REALLY piss those intolerant Muslims off (and explode a few repuglitard heads in the bargain

  21. BayStateLibrul says:

    The NY Times has pulled another Judy…

    “We cannot say with certainty whether Mr. Bush lied about Iraq. But when the president withholds vital information from the public — or leads them to believe things that he knows are not true — to justify the invasion of another country, that is bad enough.”

    WTF do they need — a videotape of the culprits plotting the war?

  22. obsessed says:

    KSM would be the perfect VP to bolster McCain’s standing with the Christian Right.

  23. BayStateLibrul says:

    “My Friends”

    The Main Event

    Rock Star v Maverick

    The Race will boil down to:

    How can McCain improve his debating skills.
    No teleprompters please.
    No, we WILL not have “Town Meetings” either.
    Town Meetings and Teleprompters are for sissies (grin)

    • bmaz says:

      McCain is actually better without teleprompters; he is horrid with them, like an automaton out of WestWorld or something.

    • PetePierce says:

      A lot of material Obama will use to take down McCain will parallel very directly the blogs on all these tabs at FDL/EW and they will be explained to swing states by Obama in ways that they can grasp. The Iraq war’s dirty fiasco underbelly will be filleted open in ways McCain never dreamed of.

      BTW McCain’s campaign has already come out in strong support of capitulating on Telco immunity the way that Christy and many others report Sylvester Reyes has been secretly doing. So have many former Clinton administration officials who are paid lobbyists for the Telcoms! You haven’t heard much about FISA lately, but I’m very afraid that when you do you aren’t going to like the fait accompli after all the hard work that was done by people here organizing lists to communicate with legislators, Blude Dog D’s, and doing their utmost to prevent it.

      Advisor to National Review: McCain Supports Warantless Wiretaps and Iraq 100 Years

      McCain Strong Supporter of Warrantless Wiretapping and Telcom Immunity Mah Frien’ It’s Good For Ya–Open Up and Swallow
      McCain, Spying, and Executive Power–A Complete Reversal in 6 Months by Glenzilla Greenwald June 3, 2008

      Former Clinton officials lobby for amnesty for FISA lawbreaking by Glenzilla Greenwald

      Yep this is a very respectful premise. Major Clinton Administration members lobbying to screw BayStateLibrul with FISA legislation. It makes you want to jump up and sing with Aretha on the spot:

      Find out what it means to me
      Take care, TCB

      Oh (sock it to me, sock it to me,
      sock it to me, sock it to me)
      A little respect (sock it to me, sock it to me,
      sock it to me, sock it to me)
      Whoa, babe (just a little bit)
      A little respect (just a little bit)

      • bmaz says:

        Pete, I am going to politely ask you to cease and desist with the belligerent, repetitive and overly extended comments. We are not running political horserace threads and it really grows tiresome. I admire and respect your passion, that is a good thing, but give it a rest here. We know exactly what you think, many times over, already. Enough is enough; and it is deleterious to thread subjects. Focus your considerable abilities here on the critical issues at hand; the politics will work itself out and we here will be much saner.

  24. Sara says:

    PetePierce is probably right about the internal dynamics within the Clinton Campaign orbit. I’ve heard a similar story probably 3rd or 4th hand, coming out of a Senator or a Senate Office. But I heard other language. The question was about whether to “buy into” the Clinton Soap Opera — and more important whether having her near an Obama Administration would also entail adopting all of her various advisors, some of whom Obama wants, others he wants retired out of sight and out of mind. People realize a whole lot of people have made their careers in the Clinton Orbit, and expected to continue them in her administration — and he wants his own circle, a few of whom may be Clinton Appointees who can make the shift. But he is unlikely to need the services of the likes of Lanny Davis, et. al. So the message was not only to begin closing down her campaign operation, it was also to take control of those who supposedly spoke for her. Suggestion was also that Hillary and Bill get to work on Lieberman, and get him to diminish his McCain activity, which apparently Obama’s people see was actually a pro-Hillary effort.

    Putting Carolyn Kennedy on the VP Vetting Committee along with Eric Holder and Jim Johnson was a very symbolic move as she was never close to the Clinton’s. Apparently some real hard ball was played to get Robert Kennedy Jr. to support Clinton — for 20 years he has been deep into cleaning up the Hudson River, and apparently Hillary indicated she would not support the various grants and programs that are part of all this if he failed to support her candidacy. He wanted to follow the rest of the Kennedy family into the Obama camp months ago, but had to consider the future of the Hudson River. Carolyn Kennedy of course is well aware of this hardball.

  25. bmaz says:

    But Sara, and you certainly know this better than anyone, that is unfortunately how big time Presidential politics is played. I don’t like it either; but the Kennedy family is certainly well versed and experienced in it, so getting too bent out of shape would be a little hypocritical. I have had access to two pretty direct lines into what has been up, and as to what is going on between the two candidates themselves (not talking about their rabid staffs and supporters) is diametrically different than is being reported and that Pet Pierce here is pitching a total crock of shit. She is not likely to be the VP; my info is that she really doesn’t want it, but she does want some significant input on platform and policies down the road and guarantees in that regard, not just lip service. That is not particularly unreasonable.

    • PetePierce says:

      LOL Bmaz–

      And I mean this in all honesty. I don’t know what gets your back up when I point out what you’re going to hear in the next few months. I always love to hear your feedback, but come on if you say I’m pitching a crock or full of it show me precisely on what fact and where.

      I’m not ditzy Andrea Mitchell who has been too plain dumb to report any of this while married to a supposed financial guru who could have helped prevent the mortgage crisis and did nothing to do that. I’m telling you that the Obama vetters have pitched to them to reveal their financial baggage and they adamantly refused. Income Reporting by a Senator to the Senate is by design sketchy and not worth a shit. Holder’s people didn’t want fucking sketchy. They wanted the fucking returns and they didn’t get them. And she’s out. No guarantees. She wants guarantees she can fucking run for President at Age 68.

      If you can specify exactly where and on what point Pete Pierce is full of shit I love to see any Bmaz post and you know it. You have a great mind Bmaz and I’ll always hope to live up to your respect but it is difficult to know what she wants at this point.

      If Senator Clinton (that’s Senator that’s only two of ‘em from Arizona or New York Bmaz only 100 of ‘em who have access to all kinds of classified information that would make your blood boil and skin crawl if you knew about it–and mine too) wants any guarantees at this point she has one way to get them.

      She can run for President when Obama has finished his 8 years at age 68. But I’m going to tell you Bmaz whether you believe me or whether you say I’m “full of shit” (lol not very nice) she has damaged (and this is a new in vogue phrase with MSM) her brand significantly.

      She should have shown concession from Day 1 Tuesday and you know damn well that I support women in the workplace fully and I’m not saying go be barefoot in the Kitchen but she should have shown up on the floor of the Senate and gone to fucking work and made her damn concession speech and got the fuck out). The US Senate has been in session this week–they are taking up the Warner-Leiberman bullshit according to our friend Cboldt’s excellent site–they are gearing up with former border agent and non-attorney Sylvester Reyes to screw you and me and the dedicated commentors on all these blogs and the headliners on FISA. She should take herself back to the Senate with dignity and fight for us with 1/10 the intensity that Norma Rae Clinton stood up in the back of a pickup truck in Pennsylvania and shook her fist in the air and said she would.

      And pssttt–Bmaz with $200 million bucks and Bill’s shady Library Foundation she ain’t traveling in the back of no pickup truck in your lifetime–take that to the bank.

      She could pay her campaign debts in an hour if she wanted to.

      And speaking of bullshit–I respect you but let me tell you one thing Bmaz you have not responded to.

      1) Income Tax Returns 2007 of Clinton
      2) Burkle millions to Bill Clinton –the breakdown of all of it
      3) Library contributions

      How many times Bmaz have you taken your client aside and said:

      I have to know the truth on this. I have to be able to know what to say to them and I have to defend you …and you’re going to be asked this on cross if I put you on the stand so we are going to simulate a real tough cross and I’m not kidding you (to your client) how you handle this could mean years of your freedom or years of misery being told what to do and where to go every fucking minute of the day with noise in your ears that never stops 24X7 and healthcare that is pure shit.”

      That’s why those questions were put to the Clintons if they were to have any role in an Obama administration but evenb if they had not refused to answer them–and they did and you are–you refuse to look at those financials and tell me why the Clintons won’t answer them.

      Your a lawyer. Clinton’s former Deputy AG in the criminal division has asked him to answer them and he’s refused.

      So that I don’t think you’re pitching a “crock” do you mind directly telling me why they won’t answer those questions???? NY Times endorsed her and they wrote repeat editorials asking–I know you think that the NY Times has endorsed Hillary but they were full of shit in trying to vet her on the financials every month of this campaign on the editorial page and in their reporting.


      If you do what I call the “Surge is Working song and dance, Bmaz” by stating

      Pete Pierce here is pitching a total crock of shit.

      I enjoy your posts immensely but I’m going to ask you to specify exactly what the crock of shit is.

      I respect you enough not to ever intentionally lie to you or embellish the truth. I’m not kidding you about the vetting financials, and step back objectively–what the hell is this woman leverging for. Again she is in the US Senate. If you or I are in the US Senate we both know the nuances of its rules that we could be a pretty big force in pushing or blocking legislation given some staff and some money.

      So I would submit to you Bmaz “mah friend” (it must be an Arizona phrase? do people walk around the streets of Phoenix or Scottsdale goin’ “mah friend every few words like Johnny Mc? *g*) that if you are in the US Senate you have a helluva way to have

      some significant input on platform and policies down the road and guarantees in that regard

      I can tell you that the Obama campaign wants a clean break of Clinton. If she wants input into policy, I’ll remind you she has a seat in a very exclusive well, and it’s called the US Senate. She has between one hundred and two hundred million bucks and if you and I had that kind of money not only could we think of some fine toys and wine to collect, and places to travel at the snap of our fingers but we could contribute liberally to causes where we thought our money would do some good.

      Hell if I had the Clinton’s money, I’d be subsidizing the local federal defender office where some very fine lawyers slave away with huge case loads and very little investigative budget to go up against FRCrP and FRE that are stacked heavily against them by “legislative intent” that is parsed by some just out of law school law clerk and published in the Federal Reporter to screw many Americans into the future until the next screwing precedent for that circuit gets laid down by another wet behind the ears law clerk who has not litigated as much as a DUI in a traffic court. Compared to DOJ their budget struggles are huge and their budgets are very very limited but you don’t need to hear that from me–you know it.

      • bmaz says:

        No, i am not going to engage in this further; it is just not worth the time and it takes away from the critical work that we should be focusing on here. I ask one more time for you to so the same and quit carpet bombing the threads with lengthy, repetitive comments.

  26. Sara says:

    Bmaz, of course some pretty nasty horsetrading is how the game is played, but the key is to look at the surface, and read it for what it tells you. I think the dual decisions, Carolyn on the Vetting Committee, and no more PAC money to the DNC (apparently it is only about 1% of what they take in)has more meaning than just what it seems. Useful to be able to interpret it for what it is.

    And no, I really don’t think you get respect by demanding it, unless you are in the Mafia. The game is different now. Obama’s favors should go to those who help him with the next steps, those who do it well, and those who do not have an agenda beyond a nice landslide next November. Hillary has two things Obama needs — he needs her support with the demographics where he was weaker, and he needs the Clinton owned microtargeting program which the Clinton’s built over the past four years in competition with the one built by the DNC, and deployed through Dean’s 50 state program. Hillary should donate it lock stock and barrel to the DNC, and they could deploy it not only for Obama, but for down ticket candidates. Respect is due if she pivots, and does at least these two things, perhaps others. (Much of her 2006 Senate Campaign Fund went to thorough testing of her private microtargeting program.) Respect is due when she indicates a successful 08 election is more important than the fortunes of the Clinton Brand.

    And oh yea, this thread started out about KSM and his legal situation. I think his claim that US Trial Lawyers probably support Gay Marriage because the Constitution does not oppose it is interesting. Logically it proves Robertson and Falwell absolutely correct, the reason the Towers were attacked was because of the Gay Lifestyle. The only open question (not addressed by the 9/11 Commission) is whether it was Allah who communicated with KSM, and told him to do it, or whether it was God who got in contact with Robertson to explain the program.

    • bmaz says:

      As to first paragraph, I am in complete agreement. And I think (and am informed) that is exactly what is underway. It is not an overnight process though, she wants the things I described in return. Saturday will be a decent viewpoint, but really, it is going to take a week or two to really get everything synchronized and joined. I simply think we should all, from all Democratic camps, give Obama and Clinton the space and oxygen to get it done. Continuous ranting by either side is counterproductive to the cause.

      As to your second paragraph, which is of much more interest to me; heh, good question. Maybe it was a conference call…. I actually have some fairly serious thoughts on what went down yesterday at GITMO; and it is indeed slimy. Will have more a little later.

    • PetePierce says:

      *g* Nicely done. And she hasn’t pivoted–plain and simple the Clintons want to hold power and never relinquish it and Bill has been very off his game in handling this.

      I don’t think Bmaz appreciates that behind the scenes the Clintons are trying to hold onto major power in an Obama administration and someone needs to tie them down and break the news that is not happening. There were a lot of people who expected big jobs from the Clintons who aren’t going to be getting them.

      There is no way for Clintons to hold power in an Obama administration period. That day is over.

      And Obama wasn’t about to have the nastiness of the teenage girls underage on those Burkle plain rides that did happen rear its head repeatedly in that campaign. I don’t care whether Hillary really wanted VP or the Supreme Court (not qualified) or HHS (surely not qualified we need a seasoned savvy MD in there for a change–that’s why it’s named Health). Why Bill got caught up in the Burkle and Brian Epstein his teenage chick procuring buddy on plane rides with all the girls half Chelsea’s age on the Burkle gulfstream your guess is good as mine but he sure as hell did. That’s between Hillary and Bill if they talk about it–not to be aired among Obama and the American people and the media.

      I I see a lot of parallels in the Soprano TV show struggles between the New Jersey mafia and the New York mafia.

      I don’t remember Paul Tsongas asking for guarantees or Ralph Nadar. I do remember the Clinton campaign in 1992 telling them to stop campaigning against him in March in fact.

      I’m rereading Ply Sci Prof Merle Black’s excellent book The Vital South: How President’s are Elected

      because it helpfully and practically explains how this election will be won by Obama if they heed the Blacks’ (husband wife authors) suggestions IMHO.

      And darkly but truly Bill has criminal liability potentially in the revealing of those library contributions. That’s why he won’t reveal them.

      On its face it’s a presidential library right? It’s supposed to be about preserving history not a mafia money machine where $31.5 million comes from making a deal with a civil rights butcher in Kazakhstan.

      I guess Bmaz is implying that my supporting links from the New York Times a small town newspaper in Hillary’s state who supported and endorsed her in the beginning are just a large mirage in the Arizona sun.

      • bmaz says:

        Pete, this is the last advisory. If you persist in carpeting the threads, there is a simple way to for that to be prevented. You have expressed your opinions and feelings repetitively and excessively. Enough. Your contributions here are greatly appreciated, but on the Clinton-Obama front, the patience has flat worn out. And it will NOT be censorship because you have been heard over and over and over. Do not respond to this advisory, I have seen that before. Just give it a rest or a vacation will be provided free of charge. Please, I implore you; because I honestly have no desire for the necessary alternative.

  27. freepatriot says:

    let’s stop thinking about what the repuglitards are gonna do to us and start thinking about what we’re gonna do to the repuglitards (to paraphrase General Grant)

    I’m getting ready to read an article comparing bush to Herbert Hoover on economic policy

    for my less historically astute brethren, all I can say is THAT AIN’T GOOD (for george and the repuglitards)

    we’re looking at a remaking of the political map here folks

    do we really want to screw that up but picking nits amongst ourselves ???

  28. Mary says:

    Via Think P – some other details about what happened at the arraignments:

    During yesterday’s arraignment of five detainees at a Guantanamo military court, “security officials cut the sound fed to reporters” in the press center when the judge asked a detainee why he was on psychotropic drugs. “It was one of half a dozen times” a security consultant cut the sound “when detainees appeared to be discussing what several of them said had been years of torture.”

    So, was the answer “loyal Bushie psychoW’s are using me for a human experiment”? If not, why not?

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