DiFi’s Amendment

I raised DiFi’s rather interesting amendment to the FISA bill in this post. Now that the transcripts are up from yesterday’s debate, I’d like to fine tune what I said about the amendment.

First, I was mistaken when I told a few people that Leahy and Jello Jay were co-sponsors of DiFi’s amendment. They are co-sponsors of her exclusivity amendment, but only Bill Nelson is co-sponsor of her immunity amendment.

I ask unanimous consent that Senator Nelson of Florida be added as a cosponsor of the FISA Court evaluation on the immunity question amendment.

Second, here’s what DiFi says about her reluctance to vote for the bill with immunity that doesn’t include her amendment.

I voted for telecom immunity in the committee. I am not inclined to vote for it, to be candid with you, unless this amendment is adopted.

Not an absolute commitment, particularly coming from DiFi. But a start, at least.

Now here’s her description of what her amendment says. She starts with a characterization of the immunity included in the SSCI bill:

So let me begin by talking about the immunity provision of the bill. It is not as expansive as some would make it sound. The language would only cover cases where the Attorney General certifies that the defendant companies received written requests or directives from top levels of the Government for their assistance.

In other words, the Government, in writing, I stress in writing, assured those companies that the program was legal, the President had authorized the program, and that its legality has been approved by the Attorney General.

DiFi’s first paragraph is curious. It describes immunity broadly, including "written requests" or "directives"–I can’t tell whether the "directives" here, given the context, are written or not. She further says it would cover those who got these written and possibly non-written requests from "top levels of Government," but doesn’t specify that, by law, the immunity should be restricted to those who received written requests from the AG.

That said, I’m not sure what her following paragraph means. Is it conditional, implying that companies would only get immunity if they had something in writing. Or does DiFi’s, "I stress, in writing," mean the companies did, in fact, get something in writing? Also, her second paragraph seems to imply that only those who got authorization beforehand from the AG would qualify for immunity, which is different from what her first paragraph says.

She then goes onto describe how the poor helpless telecoms are handcuffed by the Bush Administration’s invocation of State Secrets and goes so far as to claim that the telecoms got nothing out of this relationship.

These companies have no financial motives in providing assistance to the Government.

Uh huh. They just opened an entirely new line of business with the government, that will last for the foreseeable future, but there was no financial incentive. Uh huh.

DiFi then returns to the issue of written versus oral requests, stating that the requests the telecoms got just after 9/11 were written.

They were given written requests, legal assurances in the weeks after September 11.

Though that doesn’t clarify whether all the requests were written or whether–at the time when the Acting AG believed the program to be illegal–the telecoms relied on an oral request from someone other than the AG, someone like Gonzales.

DiFi goes on to emphasize how few people were actually read into the program, suggesting that, like Jello Jay and John Ashcroft, the telecoms just couldn’t review the action with people who could tell them the action was illegal.

It has been pointed out that there is a longstanding common law provision that allows citizens to rely on the assumption that the Government acted legally when it asks a private citizen or a company to assist it for the common good. All that is required is that the citizen act in good faith.

So the question is whether the small number of people, and it was a small number of people, who were actually cleared in a classified sense, to deal with this, of these companies, were acting in good faith and whether it was reasonable for them to determine that the assistance, in fact, it provided was legal.

A small number of telecom officials were acting under the cloak of secrecy and a directive not to disclose the Government’s request.

It appears, from what DiFi said, that the authorizations themselves admitted they were relying on Article II authority, rather than on FISA. That is, it appears that the authorizations admitted that the wiretaps were not legal under FISA or any other statute, but relied exclusively on Article II for their authority.

They are not experts on article II of the Constitution.

Now, if that wasn’t enough to alert the telecom executives there was a problem, it’s their own damn fault, IMO.

So, against this background, DiFi presents the intent of her amendment:

The amendment I am going to submit would put before the FISA Court the question of whether the telecommunications companies should, in fact, receive immunity based on the law.

The FISA Court would be required to act, en banc, and how this is, is 15 judges, Federal judges, appointed by the Chief Justice, they sit 24/7, and this is all they do, they would act en banc. They would look at the following: Did the letters sent to the carriers which were repeated virtually every 35 to 45 days over the last 4 to 5 years, did the letters sent to the carriers meet the conditions of law.

Section 2511 of title 18 clearly states that a certification from the Government is required in cases where there is no court order. That is the only two ways that FISA allows this to proceed, by written certification or by court order.

The Government has to certify in writing that all statutory requirements for the company’s assistance have been met. So the FISA Court would first look at whether the letter sent to the companies met the terms of this law. The court would then look at, if the companies provided assistance, was it done in good faith and pursuant to a belief that the compliance was legal.

Finally, the FISA Court would ask: Did the defendants actually provide assistance? If the FISA Court finds that defendant did not provide any assistance to the Government or that the assistance either met the legal requirements of the law or was reasonably and in good faith, the immunity provision would apply.

If the FISA Court finds that none of these requirements were met, immunity would not apply to the defendant companies. I think the merit of this approach is it preserves judicial review, the method we look at in order to decide questions of legality.

Now, the bulk of the Members of this body, probably 90 percent of them, have not been able to see the written certification, so you do not know what was there. What we ask in this amendment is: FISA Court, you take a look at these letters, and you make a ruling as to whether they essentially meet the certification requirements of the FISA law.

Therefore, there is judicial review to determine whether, under existing law, this immunity should be forthcoming. It is a narrowing of the immunity provisions of the Intelligence bill. I think it makes sense. I read the letters. I am a layperson, I am not a lawyer. I cannot say whether they met the immunity provisions. Others can say that.

But it should be up to a court to make that decision. It seems to me that if the FISA Court finds that none of these requirements were met, immunity would not apply to the defendant companies.

It’s a surprisingly honest position from DiFi (which is why I suspect she’ll abandon it). If Congress were to give the telecoms immunity, after all, they’d be making themselves judge and jury. Yet DiFi, at least, has no clue whether the telecoms qualify for immunity or not. DiFi’s amendment asks a court–a secret court, but significantly, a court against which BushCo cannot invoke State Secrets–to be the judge and jury in this matter.

And as I said earlier, given that one of the letters was not signed by any of the people authorized to sign such a letter, there seems to be a high likelihood that the FISA Court would rule that one authorization–presumably from March 11–to not meet the standards of the law. Therefore, the telecoms would be liable at least for the wiretapping that occurred under that authorization. And that’s before the FISA Court even considers these authorizations that are apparently based on Article II power.

Then DiFi gets to the really neat part of this amendment–a direct request that the FISA Court on the limits of the President’s Article II power to wiretap Americans.

The FISA Court of Review stated in 2002 that the President has article II authorities to conduct surveillance. The article II authority is the big rub in all this. The collection under this program was directed overwhelmingly at foreign targets.

But no court has addressed this issue since FISA was enacted in 1978. And, candidly, I think the time has come to see whether the President’s article II authority–and the FISA Court would be the first judge of this–in fact, supersedes the article II authority based on the reading that I had given you of FISA Court passage in 1978.

So essentially that is the amendment I would like to send to the desk at this time which narrows the immunity provision of the FISA law.

This is the last thing BushCo wants out of their immunity provision. I’m fairly confident their apparent refusal to appeal the FISA Court’s adverse ruling(s) from earlier this year stems from a desire not to have the FISC Review Court rule against them. So to invite the FISA Court to make a determination of whether and where the President has Article II power … Dick Cheney can’t be happy about this.

Now, mind you, I’m not holding my breath for this to pass (I’m going to do a review of Orrin Hatch’s reaction to this proposal later). I’m not going to bet one red cent that DiFi isn’t going to disappoint me again.

But it is an intriguing proposal nevertheless.  

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55 replies
  1. bobschacht says:

    EW-
    Thanks for your review of this. I saw DiFi present her amendments on CSPAN, and although it sounded OK, knew that it was going to require a careful review. Thanks for helping us with that process.

    Will you also review her amendment regarding exclusivity?

    Thanks,
    Bob in HI

  2. emptywheel says:

    Yeah. Though that one’s a no-brainer. Plus, it has Jello Jay’s and Leahy’s support, so it should have a lot of support (though not necessarily 60 votes).

    To be honest, DiFi is one of the more insightful Senators–she always picks out key risks.

    And then she promptly ignores those risks, wasting almost all of her insight.

    • Peterr says:

      Yeah. Though that one’s a no-brainer. Plus, it has Jello Jay’s and Leahy’s support, so it should have a lot of support (though not necessarily 60 votes).

      To be honest, DiFi is one of the more insightful Senators–she always picks out key risks.

      And then she promptly ignores those risks, wasting almost all of her insight.

      It’s only a waste, if you think she’s looking out for the constitution. Her history consistently puts her on the side of business and the well-heeled, despite her Democratic roots. If you consider her insights in that light, she rarely wastes a single one.

      If DiFi had been a politician in almost anywhere but San Francisco, she’d have been more likely to have run as a republican than a democrat.

  3. oldtree says:

    I have to wonder what cheney and rove have on the difi? knowing the political spying started right away upon anointment by the supreme soviet… her husband has a few other problems that she shares with political corruption, etc.. She has a lot of dirty little fingers she can’t wash off and they will use her and schumer as beadles until they are used up.

  4. RevDeb says:

    DiFi has a habit of asking questions that merit a lot of follow-up and begin as good insights. If only someone would follow up on them! You’d think that she’d been at this long enough to know what it is she was looking at since she is one of the few that overlaps Intel and Judiciary and this has kind of been in the spotlight for at least 2 years now IIRC.

  5. WilliamOckham says:

    Sigh…

    Is Senator Feinstein unable to read? FISA is quite clear. The AG is required to certify that:

    there is no substantial likelihood that the surveillance will acquire the contents of any communication to which a United States person is a party;

    Contents are defined to include the metadata. There is no way the telcos could have believed in good faith that was true.

    • emptywheel says:

      WO

      I think her mention of FISA is an accident–it’s utterly clear (and I think she makes this clear elsewhere) that this is not legal according to FISA. So the question is, is it legal according to 1) more general 18 USC 2511 (which is the language she appears to be using, or 2) some ridiculous notion of Article II authority, which her discussion appears to indicate play a key part in the authorizations.

      That said, even if she’s stupid and believes this might be legal according to FISA (which contradicts stuff she says elsehwere), it wouldn’t matter if she coudl pass this, bc the FISA Court is pretty sure to rule this wasn’t legal.

    • looseheadprop says:

      there is no substantial likelihood that the surveillance will acquire the contents of any communication to which a United States person is a party;

      Contents are defined to include the metadata. There is no way the telcos could have believed in good faith that was true.

      I think that may be the problem with ALL of Ashcroft’s certifications pre-Comey intervetnion. That whether or not the certification tracked the language of the statute, it did not track the reality of the facts on the ground

      WHich explains why Judge Walker said At&T had no good faith basis.

  6. emptywheel says:

    WO

    Here’s the language:

    (A) IN GENERAL.–The dismissal of a covered civil action under paragraph (1) shall proceed only if, after review, the Foreign Intelligence Surveillance Court determines that–

    (i) the written request or directive from the Attorney General or the head of an element of the intelligence community (or the deputy of such person) to the electronic communication service provider under paragraph (1)(A)(ii) complied with section 2511(2)(a)(ii)(B) of title 18, United States Code;

    (ii) the assistance alleged to have been provided was undertaken in good faith by the electronic communication service provider pursuant to a demonstrable reason to believe that compliance with the written request or directive under paragraph (1)(A)(ii) was permitted by law; or

    (iii) the electronic communication service provider did not provide the alleged assistance.

    (B) PROCEDURES.–In reviewing certifications and making determinations under subparagraph (A), the Foreign Intelligence Surveillance Court shall–

    (i) review and make any such determination en banc; and

    (ii) permit any plaintiff and any defendant in the applicable covered civil action to appear before the Foreign Intelligence Surveillance Court–

    (I) pursuant to section 103 of the Foreign Intelligence Surveillance Act of 1978 (50 U.S.C. 1803); and

    (II) as necessary to serve justice.

  7. bmaz says:

    So what happens when the “Secret Court” rules that the Administration is so full of dung that their eyes are brown and that they have been serially violating substantive criminal laws; and Cheney/Bush classifies the whole bailiwick and shouts State Secrets so that the ruling is a secret too? I guess you have to leave impeachment on the floor again eh?

    • BayStateLibrul says:

      OT,

      Holy Brady, they moved the Miami v Pats game to 4:15. Wonders, it’ll give us time to shop, with plenty of time for drinks, starting at 4:00 PM…

      • BlueStateRedHead says:

        Is Holy Brady a set phrase, or are you referring to Tom Brady? OOH, if so, I beg to differ with the Holy. He did play for Michigan, which may make him holy in some parts of this blog, but what is so appealing about him aside from talent, intelligence, and decency vis-a-vis paternity (BSRH junior would want me to say, as well as looks) is his insistence on remembering how unholy he looked during the draft pick, 6th round if I remember correctly.

        OTOH, there was surely a divine hand at work in the way he came to the position he plays now.

        Anyway, will be lifting a virtual drink to you wherever you are in the BlueBayState on Sunday at 4:00.
        Yikes it’s almost the other 4:00.
        Until Trash Talk time, then.

  8. emptywheel says:

    bmaz

    Well, wrt the lawsuits, they get sent back to CA, as having not been dismissed pursuant to the immunity rule.

    That, in and of itself, ought to make it EASIER for the plaintiffs to get a hearing. Yes, Bush will get to invoke state secrets, but it’ll all be a lot harder to do if FISA has said, “BS.”

    I don’t know if this is the thing to get this issue reviewed, but it has the beauty of putting it before the one court that BushCo can’t prevent from ruling on it, per State Secrets.

    • bmaz says:

      Oh I know, but crikey I get tired of the BS secrecy stuff. I guess we were down the proverbial rabbit hole when we authorized a freaking secret court, for secret law, all done in…secret. Here is a provision I would like to see added to the plan if it is to truly ever be enacted: On any individual evaluation undertaken by the FISC pursuant to this section if the court en banc finds by a two thirds majority, or greater, that the conduct of the Executive Branch in said case is criminal, that determination shall be made public and be formally noticed to the Congress and Department of Justice.

      LHP @13 – Yeah, I know, that was said somewhat tongue in cheek; however, if you read In Re: Sealed Case in conjunction with Bates’ recent opinion in ACLU v. NSA, there is an awful lot of room for classification and state secrets mischief that can be played by the Executive irrespective of the fact that the FISC can make at least sanitized versions of it’s decisions public.

      • PetePierce says:

        Boy, did we ever go down a Rabbit’s hole with the FISA court. We went into the mother of all enigmas enshrouded in a mystery.

        I don’t ever see a way for the public to get a handle on what the government is doing as to domestic wiretapping and domestic wiretapping via foreign phone calls and email communications that have to traverse switches (like the famous one in San Francisco that Mark Klien described in detail and Senator Chris Dodd related on the floor yesterday) on the soil of the U.S.

        I know this is simplistic, Bmaz but I think it is correct. To the extent the FISA court is involved to make any determination, Americans are going to be on the short end of the stick as to what’s happening to them and their information.

        It drives me up a wall that everytime I want to be informed and to get information about what’s happening to my information (secret Trojans by my ISP with Acronyms–I follow them fairly closely and there are a mind boggling number of potential data miners and email tappers out there) I run into these road blocks:

        1) Serial cascades of redaction
        2) State Secrets kabuki dances every time I blink from DOJ
        3) Arguments that the courts themselves don’t have sufficient classifications to review materials in camera (let alone a barely literate dumbass punk on the street like me or John/Jane Q. Citizen
        4) Incredible arms length scenarios like the ones in the 9th circuit for EFF attorneys that a judge on the panel likened to Alice in Wonderland’s landscape where the attorney for the plaintiffs or it could be the defense attorneys in criminal cases

        a) can only review a part of the material which normally would have been caled “discovery” against their client in a certain room with Marshalls or some other guards
        b) Cannot take notes
        c) Can only review them then and there for a specified amount of time.
        d) Cannot have a laptop with them

        But of course, the government can do all those things.

        If you’re looking at that famous statue of Lady Justice in this context, either her arm’s out of socket here, or she has one helluva inguanal hernia.

  9. CallMeDave says:

    Here’s an email I got from the Senator this afternoon as a reply to a comment I left on her website (emphasis mine):

    Dear Mr. Dirty Fucking Hippie:

    Thank you for writing regarding the Bush Administration’s request for legislation that would provide liability relief for telecommunications companies that are alleged to have provided assistance to the National Security Agency after September 11, 2001. I appreciate your thoughts on this topic, and welcome the opportunity to respond.

    The Senate Intelligence Committee approved a bill on October 18th amending the Foreign Intelligence Surveillance Act of 1978 (FISA) by a vote of 13-2. That bill, among many provisions, would provide immunity for such companies if they were specifically requested or directed to provide assistance to the government.

    The Intelligence Committee’s report on the bill includes declassified text stating that the Executive branch provided letters to electronic communication service providers at regular intervals. These letters all directed or requested assistance and noted that the assistance was authorized by the President and was legal. The Committee’s report can be found at

    http://intelligence.senate.gov/071025/report.pdf>http://intelligence.senate.gov/071025/report.pdf

    I voted for the FISA legislation that passed out of the Intelligence Committee by a bipartisan vote of 13-2. The Senate Judiciary Committee did not take action on the portions of the bill dealing with immunity. The bill is now scheduled to go to the Senate floor. I am keeping an open mind to whether some other legislative approach besides immunity would be best.

    Rest assured that I will make every effort to ensure that new FISA legislation will protect the privacy rights of all Americans without restricting the intelligence community’s ability to protect us from attack.

    Again, thank you for writing. I hope that you will continue to write on matters of importance to you. Should you have any further comments or questions, please feel free to contact my Washington, D.C. office at (202) 224-3841.

    Best regards.

    Sincerely yours,
    Dianne Feinstein
    United States Senator

  10. PJEvans says:

    I got the same e-mail as CallMeDave. This is what I wrote back through her site:

    You said: “These companies have no financial motives in providing assistance to the Government.”

    They have considerable financial incentive to provide assistance! It’s a whole new area of business for them! (This should be immediately obvious, even to congresscritters.)

    You said: “The Intelligence Committee’s report on the bill includes declassified text stating that the Executive branch provided letters to electronic communication service providers at regular intervals. These letters all directed or requested assistance and noted that the assistance was authorized by the President and was legal.”

    The critical piece you leave out here is that the authorization is only legal if it came from the Attorney General or one of a small group of others in the Department of Justice, and at the critical time here Alberto Gonzales, David Addington, and John Yoo were not in that group. (The White House counsel is not on the list of those authorized to sign off on anything under surveillance law.)

    Please note also that the telecoms, when doing surveillance according to legally authorized warrants, issued by legally authorized courts, are immunized according to prior law, and do not need further immunization.

    It is strongly suspected that the proposed retroactive immunity is intended not to protect the telecoms, but to protect Bush and Cheney from the consequences of the crimes they have committed or authorized to be committed. This would be a grave miscarriage of justice, for those who believe that those who commit crimes should suffer the consequences of their acts.

  11. emptywheel says:

    CallMeDave

    This post deals with that declassified language (and include links to a slew of posts I did analyzing the SSCI report). As I point out in that post, at least one of the authorizations seems inadequate on its face, in that it isn’t signed by someone authorized to sign it.

  12. CTuttle says:

    Here’s another bit of good news…

    ACLU Demands Disclosure of Legal Memos Justifying Illegal Spying
    Documents Would Increase Public Understanding of Warrantless Wiretapping Program

    WASHINGTON, DC – December 18 — The American Civil Liberties Union, the National Security Archive and the Electronic Privacy Information Center (EPIC) today filed papers urging a federal judge to compel the Justice Department and the Federal Bureau of Investigation to disclose legal and policy memos relating to the National Security Agency’s (NSA) warrantless wiretapping program. Two years after the media’s disclosure that the NSA was secretly intercepting the phone calls and emails of people in the United States without a warrant in direct violation of the Foreign Intelligence Surveillance Act (FISA), the government continues to withhold documents that could shed light on its legal justification for the program.

    http://www.commondreams.org/news2007/1218-12.htm

  13. PetePierce says:

    If I had a vote, or a voice in the Senate, I’d reject DiFi/Nelson’s amendment as garbage out of hand.

    The FISA Court has no business interjecting itself into a question of immunity when there were attorneys who make 6 figures on both sides who have expertise in the wiretapping statutes that were on the books and knew the wiretapping was completely illegal from square one.

    This group includes very senior career attorneys at DOJ, senior attorneys at OLC, experienced attorneys who were in Harriet Miers’ office with real experience in federal litigation as opposed to no experience in federal litigation on the part of Miers, attorneys who reviewed this later in Fred Fielding’s office, and probably 50 or more attorneys additionally from various offices at DOJ, NSA, and the 16 letter name agencies that constitute the U.S. Intel agencies.

    I wouldn’t trust the FISA court en banc or less than en banc or the FISC Court of Review as far as I could spit them.

    I would take John Bates’ decision a couple weeks ago screwing the ACLU and all Americans as a bellwhether or classic symptom of how the FISA court would behave in any Immunity situation.

    Bates sought predicatable refuge in a ruling decorated in the trappings of State Secrets malarky.

    http://aclu.org/pdfs/safefree/…..7_1211.pdf

    As we all recall, ACLU filed motions with the FISA court in August and September seeking court opinions on the wiretapping program and the government’s legal briefs.

    Here’s something I don’t think has gotten enough attention:

    The Department of Justice, meanwhile, contended that the FISA court had neither the jurisdiction nor the authority to unseal the records

    It has become a knee-jerk reflex now in nearly all litigation that concerns wiretapping or destroyed evidence and tapes. DOJ’s attorneys always reach contend in motions that

    1) The Judge has no jurisdiction for any of a number of reasons they make up–like the hearing before Judge Kennedy in D.C. tomorrow. Kennedy, DOJ says, has no jurisdiction because they rendered the victims to foreign soil. I’ll bet your bippy that DOJ is in District Court in D.C. tomorrow that they claim has no jurisdiction over them.

    2) State Secrets gives them an out is another of their repeat claims now.

    No jurisdiction and State secrets are the two coverup positions DOJ now regularly asserts.

    Remember, that it’s not just the immunity component of S. 2248 that’s egregious. S. 2248 gives DOJ and DNI enormous power to decide what constitutes illegal wiretapping. I call that the forgotten civil liberties cluster fuck interwoven into S. 2248. Even an immunity victory, I’m constantly harping, leaves a very bad bill on the table full of nebulous language that sedes enormous power to DOJ and DNI. And you know exactly how they are going to construe that power–and it’s going to be horrendous for your privacy rights.

    It’s pretty much a cliche, although most Americans wouldn’t know the FISA court from Britney’s ass, that through the end of 2004, 18761 warrants were granted, while just five were denied by this Court.

    If you look at almost all the rulings by the Federal judiciary that have balanced civil rights vs. security, civil rights has almost never gotten a favorable opinion in any of the federal trial or appellate courts in the last 6 years since Bush/Condi’s/FBI’s/FAA’s failure in 911.

    Paradoxically, DOJ’s so-called terrorism prosecutions have a dismal trackrecord of fialure, but their many efforts to trample on human rights like the Judge Mukasey led material witness roundup in SDNY have been very successful.

    And finally, the Feinstein/Nelsom Immunity amendment is full of vague language and the bottom line is it allows the scope of immunity behavior to become secret.

    The only constructive thing that needs to happen Constitutional law-wise is that all Americans need to know what constituted the behavior of these Telecoms replete with rosters of 6 figure salary lawyers who had a never ending list of 400 plus attorney lawfirms on their team rosters.

    These included lawyers who had spent their careers parsing the wiretapping statutes and got paid splendidly for it.

    If Feinstein/Nelson’s amendment full of nebulous stilted non-specific, byzantine conundrums were to pass, you can kiss Telco accountability good-bye.

    • bmaz says:

      You know, much of what you said I agree with. At least as to the FISA Court, however, the government’s position on objecting to the ACLU application was far from spurious; as much as i hate to admit that. The FISC is not a Constitutional court, but rather is a creature of statute; thus it has no more jurisdiction and power than is specifically promulgated by the enabling statute. There is, again this is painful for me, a decent case this determination was not proper to be considered by the court under their, for lack of a better term, charter. Personally, I think there are holes in that argument that can be mined, but it is certainly not without merit.

      • PetePierce says:

        That’s correct. So DOJ does have considerable validity with that jurisdictional argument and it should be one of the first things anyone should look for. I overlooked that.

        What muddies the waters for me though is that ACLU was seeking to put sunshine on the FISA rulings and arguing (although I haven’t read their motions) but I will,

        http://www.aclu.org/spying

        that Americans have the right to know what the FISA court ruled as to the government’s authority to illegal wiretap (and probably what they interpreted the administration’s Article II powers that they surely argued should be applied to be:

        “Over the next six months, the public and Congress will be debating one of the most important matters of our time: under what circumstances the government should be permitted to use its profoundly intrusive surveillance powers to intercept the communications of people inside the United States,” said Anthony D. Romero, Executive Director of the ACLU. “Unless the FISA court discloses the documents leading up to the recent law and shedding light on the government’s claimed surveillance authority, an informed and meaningful debate – the cornerstone of our democracy – cannot occur. A conversation about a threat to our most precious constitutional rights and liberties should not occur in a factual vacuum.”

        And from the ACLU’s press release here:

        http://www.aclu.org/safefree/s…..70808.html

        “House Minority Leader John Boehner stated that the FISC had issued a ruling prohibiting intelligence agents from intercepting foreign-to-foreign calls passing through the United States. To a large extent, it was the perception that the FISC had issued an order limiting the administration’s surveillance authority that led Congress to pass new legislation last week. Yet the order itself, like the January 2007 order, has remained secret.

        “Publication of these secret court orders is vitally important to the ongoing debate about government surveillance,” said Jameel Jaffer, Director of the ACLU’s National Security Project. “Virtually everything we know about these orders we’ve had to learn from executive branch officials, but executive branch officials are plainly not disinterested parties in a debate about the appropriate reach of executive branch surveillance. The public has a right to first-hand information about what the court permitted and what it disallowed.”

    • ProfessorFoland says:

      Remember, that it’s not just the immunity component of S. 2248 that’s egregious. S. 2248 gives DOJ and DNI enormous power to decide what constitutes illegal wiretapping. I call that the forgotten civil liberties cluster fuck interwoven into S. 2248. Even an immunity victory, I’m constantly harping, leaves a very bad bill on the table full of nebulous language that sedes enormous power to DOJ and DNI. And you know exactly how they are going to construe that power–and it’s going to be horrendous for your privacy rights.

      The civil-rights fuckup is fixable–via court rulings (4th amendment) or future legislation. I know perfectly well that would take years to ever happen, but there are ways to keep fighting that battle even after a law is passed.

      Immunity is forever. It’s a mistake that can’t be fixed.

      • PetePierce says:

        Yes, you’re correct it could be fixed; and the litigation would take years and in the current climate that DOJ and the Executive branch have created any move towards sunshine and civil liberties that could come from Congress would be litigated in the Courts for another bite of the Unitary Executive apple, and then there is always the Congress for a third bite of the Unitary Executive (expansion of and full application of the tools of an expansive Article II interpretation of the President’s powers).

        That leapfrong cycle could continue for years.

  14. Hmmm says:

    The en banc aspect is interesting. Ordinarily the en banc setting would tend to bring out better behavior, but that’s in public. This by contrast would be a secret en banc sitting. Oyez oyez all ye olde legal eagles, what say ye about that dynamic?

    Also: Even if this amendment gets in, and the bill passes, why o why would W not simply veto? Reid is now yammering about extending PAA which takes the time pressure off.

  15. WilliamOckham says:

    I am just sick and tired of everybody in DC pretending that there is some doubt about whether or not the ”program” was illegal. The government was breaking the law and the telcos knew it. It is just the same as the torture ”debate”. We pretend that up is down Our civic institutions are failing in the face of tyranny.

  16. perris says:

    DiFi’s first paragraph is curious. It describes immunity broadly, including “written requests” or “directives”–I can’t tell whether the “directives” here, given the context, are written or not. She further says it would cover those who got these written and possibly non-written requests from “top levels of Government,” but doesn’t specify that, by law, the immunity should be restricted to those who received written requests from the AG.

    she is saying her amendment pretty much takes hearsay claims of endorsements out of the mix

    the telecoms have to show they were given requests in writing

    I wouldn’t so much mind this amendment IF she specifies who this request in writing has to be from, and NOT delegates of that person

    I would also ask her to speicify that it could NOT include blanket warrants and it could NOT include lawmakers…as far as lawmakers, they would have needed a specific court ordered warrant

    if she fine tunes this amendment I think it’s a good one

    • tryggth says:

      (ii) described in a written request or directive from the Attorney General or the head of an element of the intelligence community (or the deputy of such person) to the electronic communication service provider indicating that the activity was–

      • perris says:

        see that?

        “or the deputy”

        that can’t be allowed, they can claim some kind of “secret deputization on the fly” bull crap

        that’s what has to be fine tuned, get those loopholes out of there

        now I posted something over at the lake I would like some lawyers to comment here;

        isn’t it impossible to grant “retroactive immunity” to a third party since it denies due process?

        for instance, how can they grant immunity from telecoms stealing from me?

        I have been denied due process, true?

        • tryggth says:

          Oh, I think its funnier than that.

          It basically describes the requests/directives the Senators have seen and is meant to cover them all. Bet there are a couple of hilarious outliers in there.

    • MarkH says:

      if she fine tunes this amendment I think it’s a good one

      That’s my impression too. She may want to get input from some of the other Dem senators who are on SCCI or SJC.

  17. Scarecrow says:

    This strikes me as a very odd procedure. One of the Administration’s consistent strategies has been to do everything they can to prevent any court with jurisdiction to rule on the legality of their actions. They’ve used all kinds of tactics to avoid a legal determination and prevent cases from getting to the S.Ct. So here comes DiFi with an amendment that, if I read it correctly, directs the FISA Court, en banc, to make exactly the kind of determination on the legality of an entire program that the Bush Admin has sought to avoid.

    So the first thing that happens is: Bush will veto on that grounds alone.

    But suppose the legislation passed and was signed. It is constitutional? The procedure almost calls for the Court to make an advisory opinion, which is prohibited. Under Article III, US courts can only rule in actual cases and controversies; they can’t make abstract decisions just because Congress would like to know whether something is legal. It has to come up in the context of an actual case. So if Congress told the court to issue an opinion, the Court might well first decide if the request is unconstitutional for it to issue such an opinion.

    So is there enough of a nexus between the opinion DiFi wants them to render, and the actual cases and controversies — the civil suits against the telecoms? I’m not sure, but I think the issue of whether this scheme is even constutitional is debatable. Perhaps the real attorneys could chime in if this is off the mark.

    Then, suppose we get this statute, then the court says, “we can’t issue an advisorty opinion.” What next? They could decide that only the amendment is unconstititional, and let the immunity itself stand — or they could find that the unconstitutional provision is so integral to the immunity provision that they both fall. This is all just wild speculation.

  18. MadDog says:

    On a related amendment, does anyone understand why Chuckles Schumer is submitting Amendment 3866?

    It appears to give “standing” to bring a cause of action for damages, but only for those who are journalists, academics or others reseaching terrorism or does banking with any country designated as a state sponsor of terrorism.

    WTF is this amendment for?

    • PetePierce says:

      DOJ’s/the administration’s stance in these suits in addition to the abominable ubiquitious State Secrets defense, has been that plaintiffs don’t have standing to sue because they can’t proove they have standing.

      http://www.eff.org/deeplinks/2…..pping-case

      20030707_9th_revised_ruling.pdf

      Parent:
      Kelly v. Arriba Soft

      Why Schumer restricted it to only this category of plaintiff, I don’t know because the government is making it as difficult as possible for anyone to proove standing in a case. I thought, but I’ll have to review that the Ninth Circuit in one of the two companion cases, ruled that the plaintiff lacked standing to bring the case. I’m pretty sure that was part of one of the opinions. There are plenty of people who know off the top of their heads here.

  19. Hmmm says:

    I don’t understand, why would it be advisory? It’s ajudicating dismissal of an actual case, though brought in a different jurisdiction?

  20. JohnLopresti says:

    I would like to see Scotus in this loop, and no way to configure requirements in petition for cert so one eccentric justice on Scotus in camera could toss the invisible advocacy permanently back to a FISC that had claimed ‘injusticiability’.

  21. sojourner says:

    FWIW, I have been following this thread all afternoon and evening and pondering… As far-fetched as it may sound, could Dubya and the Dick have spun a story to the telecoms about a “new order” that was going to be the new government, and that they had better go along and help with whatever was needed? We have pondered this question before: Why would the telecoms willingly break the law, based on flimsy legal advice from this administration? As noted above, the telecoms have plenty of lawyers with six-figure incomes and they should have known better.

    Did the administration give the telecoms false documents, perhaps? Think about it — these people are not above forgery or other underhanded tricks to accomplish their goals. For some reason, I can see Cheney sitting behind his desk and signing John Ashcroft’s or someone else’s name to an opinion. “Hell, he works for me and he will do as I say,” is very likely how Cheney thinks.

    The point is, just as Congress has been bamboozled to pass new FISA legislation, so too were the telecoms bamboozled to provide access to their networks. Those who pushed back against the ‘requests’ ran into legal trouble, probably to prevent them from being able to say much about what had transpired. Those who cooperated were well-rewarded probably (as in the rise of AT&T from its anti-trust ashes), but now Bush and Cheney are on the hook to take care of them.

    Maybe if they don’t take care of the telecoms, they will be “swimmin’ wit’ dah fishes…”

  22. texasdem says:

    Question:

    The amendment I am going to submit would put before the FISA Court the question of whether the telecommunications companies should, in fact, receive immunity based on the law.

    The FISA Court would be required to act, en banc, and how this is, is 15 judges, Federal judges, appointed by the Chief Justice, they sit 24/7, and this is all they do, they would act en banc. They would look at the following: Did the letters sent to the carriers which were repeated virtually every 35 to 45 days over the last 4 to 5 years, did the letters sent to the carriers meet the conditions of law.

    Section 2511 of title 18 clearly states that a certification from the Government is required in cases where there is no court order. That is the only two ways that FISA allows this to proceed, by written certification or by court order.

    The Government has to certify in writing that all statutory requirements for the company’s assistance have been met. So the FISA Court would first look at whether the letter sent to the companies met the terms of this law. The court would then look at, if the companies provided assistance, was it done in good faith and pursuant to a belief that the compliance was legal.

    Finally, the FISA Court would ask: Did the defendants actually provide assistance? If the FISA Court finds that defendant did not provide any assistance to the Government or that the assistance either met the legal requirements of the law or was reasonably and in good faith, the immunity provision would apply.

    If the FISA Court finds that none of these requirements were met, immunity would not apply to the defendant companies. I think the merit of this approach is it preserves judicial review, the method we look at in order to decide questions of legality.

    Now, the bulk of the Members of this body, probably 90 percent of them, have not been able to see the written certification, so you do not know what was there. What we ask in this amendment is: FISA Court, you take a look at these letters, and you make a ruling as to whether they essentially meet the certification requirements of the FISA law.

    Therefore, there is judicial review to determine whether, under existing law, this immunity should be forthcoming. It is a narrowing of the immunity provisions of the Intelligence bill. I think it makes sense. I read the letters. I am a layperson, I am not a lawyer. I cannot say whether they met the immunity provisions. Others can say that.

    But it should be up to a court to make that decision. It seems to me that if the FISA Court finds that none of these requirements were met, immunity would not apply to the defendant companies.

    Ok, so FISA court has three questions to deal with. What if their answers are no, yes, yes?

    Would it be possible for the court to conclude that the letters originating from DOJ were legally unsupportable, BUT that the telcos that received these letters and followed their demands were acting in good faith, since the AG’s signature was there? And so “the assistance… was reasonable and in good faith, [therefore] the immunity provision would apply.”

    Is that one of the possible outcomes here? IANAL, so I don’t know if “reasonable and in good faith” would cover “doing it cause the AG certified on paper it was legal even though you know it probably isn’t.”

    Given that this particular combination of facts is almost certainly what happened here, is Feinstein hoping to allow that combination of facts to result in immunity? It kindof looks like it from the plain text but IANAL IANAL IANAL.

    Second question: if the FISA court says “DOJ fucked up but we’re giving the telcos immunity anyway”, what then? Our real ire seems to be directed at DOJ rather than telcos anyway, so if the FISA court were to rule negatively on their behavior, what would the consequences of that be?

    Given that someone (Specter I think) was trying to get FISA court to rule on this stuff a year or two back, if Feinstein is arranging to get that in exchange for letting the telcos off the hook, is that a fair trade? Getting DOJ on the hook and telcos off seems completely reasonable to me, IF there are some concrete consequences for DOJ FourthBranch etc as a result.

  23. JoeBuck says:

    Let’s presume that Article II gives the president the power to wiretap Americans. If so, then before the Bill of Rights was added, the President had the power to wiretap. But an amendment trumps anything in the Constitution itself, right? So how can any language in Article II trump the 4th Amendment? The Amendment clearly has to win, or we have judges rewriting the Constitution.

  24. Neil says:

    OT

    Amid Protests, Bolton Highlights Global Threats By Josh Glasser, Managing News Editor

    …So it was in this contentious environment, as the man in the tweed jacket was screaming, “Blood on your hands!” and protesters were pushing students out of the way to make their signs visible, that Arkes signaled Marx to take a stand. “If America stands for anything, it stands for freedom of speech,” the president reminded the man reluctant to comply. Still, “I don’t want to listen to your crap,” the man in the tweed jacket yelled at Marx.

    Bolton quickly turned to pages 10 and 11 of his book, “Surrender is Not an Option.” Joking that his publishers told him to “never miss an opportunity” for publicity, Bolton recalled being the only conservative speaker on Class Day at his 1970 Yale graduation among “liberal and worse than that classmates.” He described, “As I started my few minutes of remarks, I was greeted by hecklers, the only speaker so grazed. I had faced this sort of thing many times from the liberals at Yale, who saw themselves as brave and oppressed dissenters from U.S. national policy, but who couldn’t stand encountering dissent in their own little sandbox. What you have over there, I said, pointing to the hecklers, is a typical example of liberal tolerance.” To Bolton and the audience that applauded wildly after he read from his recently released autobiography, the anecdote could not have been more relevant.

    Of course, Bolten demonstrates his contempt for liberals by associating all liberals with a lack of tolerance and the implication that it is a uniquely liberal characteristic… “a typical example of liberal tolerance.”

    Editorial: Open Dialogue Is Crucial to Liberal Arts

    Part of being liberal—or liberally educated—means having the self-confidence and courage to confront ideas and viewpoints different from our own with open minds, and the ability to engage with others thoughtfully, paying respect to the opposing side while maintaining the dignity of our own.
    [snip]

    While we were dismayed by the interruption of the protestors, the response of students to the lecture and the disturbance gave us reason to take pride in the Amherst College community. President Tony Marx’s statement in response to one disruptive heckler, “If America stands for anything, it stands for freedom of speech,” and the subsequent wild applause, indicate that most of the College’s students seek open dialogue and value their right to hear different, sometimes unpopular points of view. Students, liberal and conservative alike, were excited to hear Bolton talk and many spoke afterwards of how much they valued the experience.

    As far as I can tell there was no dialogue, it was a speech, a soliloquy given by John Bolten titled “Dealing with Rogue States after Iraq.” I have not been able to identify any evidence that a question and answer session followed in the news or op-ed in the Amherst Student paper or in recorded audio. If you listen to it, and it prompts some questions, I’d be interested in hearing them from you.

  25. TheraP says:

    Hopefully I’m not wasting your time here. But I’d like to draw attention to two things I noticed… in two different Tuesday postings. Both refer to the AG certifies/says = present tense = current AG.

    A. In DiFi’s first paragraph above:

    “The language would only cover cases where the Attorney General certifies that the defendant companies received written requests or directives from top levels of the Government for their assistance.”

    B. A comment of LS @37 (thread on Dick Versus Scottish Haggis:

    Look at what Ashcroft just wrote in November, 2007:

    ….”If the attorney general of the United States says that an intelligence-gathering operation has been determined to be lawful, a company should be able to rely on that determination.:

    And LS concludes: “Nowhere in his article does he say “he” made a determination of legality. Nowhere. His reference at the end to the AG…seems to be referring to Mukasey.”

    So, just drawing attention to the verbs in present tense and the apparent strategy across situations, to in effect “backdate” legality by having current AG state a judgment.

    Tiny point, I know, but boy you have to watch every single word, cuz these folks are trying to hide behind even verb tenses.

  26. emptywheel says:

    TheraP

    DiFi’s is meant to backdate approval. The immunity provision in SSCI relies on certification from the AG that the telecoms undertook the illegal wiretapping in good faith. SO Mukasey would be the one to make that certification, in spite of the fact that he wasn’t there and really has no way of certifying that the telecoms did act in good faith.

  27. cboldt says:

    but significantly, [FISC is] a court against which BushCo cannot invoke State Secrets

    I wouldn’t be so sure about that. But aside from that, this aspect of the proposed process, “permit any plaintiff and any defendant in the applicable covered civil action to appear before the Foreign Intelligence Surveillance Court,” is, IMO, the show stopper. If the right to amnesty determination could be made in secret and KEPT THERE, I think the administration would go along with it.

    Looking at the issue from the plaintiff’s point of view, I think DiFi’s “good faith” prong for applying amnesty is a loophole big enough to drive a truck through.

    What DiFi (and Specter) are trying to do is punt the issue out of Congress. This is a repeating patten for Specter, for sure, and he’s pretty open about it.

    Tough to tell what all the administration motives are for insisting on statutory amnesty. Legacy protection plays a role, because the cases may last past January 2009, and the next administration may be less aggressive with asserting state secret. And too, trying to pawn off the role of heavy to Congress, instead of having the assertion of state secret as the final closing act of the cases.

    But the “protect methods of surveillance” excuse doesn’t carry any water with me. What’s being criticized is a POLICY, not a method. Everyone knows internet and telephone transmissions can be intercepted; and many people know that nearly all communications transactions (including visiting a web page) leave a record log behind. The administration (and I think Congress too) wants to preserve an illusion of privacy as against the government.

    The consequences of being found out? Look to history. What was the fallout from the revelations of the Church Committee? Only an impression on the legacy of the snoopers, and a FISA law that, for privacy protection, is worth spit.

    Let’s presume that Article II gives the president the power to wiretap Americans. If so, then before the Bill of Rights was added, the President had the power to wiretap.

    I’m sympathetic to the inherent powers argument (I don’t think that statutes can precisely track Article II powers), but on a case-by-case basis, not as a wholesale right to snoop merely by uttering “foreign intelligence” before snooping.

    At any rate, Article II is “we the people” giving a power to the president. The bill of rights didn’t give him any more or less power. The BOR was added because some forward looking folks knew that the government would pervert the overarching power transfer inherent in the constitution, so that the only rights the people have would be those positively expressed.

    And a bit tangentially, if you are looking at the constitution, check the 3rd amendment, the one about quartering troops. If we are in a “time of war,” Congress can pass a law for quartering troops in our homes. Now THAT would make for some interesting debate, as we muck along trying to prevent all bad acts.

  28. masaccio says:

    All of the letters also stated that the activities had been determined to be lawful by the Attorney General

    This is from an earlier post, and describes the contents of the letters to the telcom companies. From the same post, here is the text of the statute:

    B) a certification in writing by a person specified in section 2518 (7) of this title or the Attorney General of the United States that no warrant or court order is required by law, that all statutory requirements have been met, and that the specified assistance is required,

    When I started in the practice of law, I did a lot of complex contracts. My senior partner taught me that if I used different words, I meant different things. We don’t know if the language “determined to be lawful” is a quote from the letters, but if it is, it may very well mean that the AG was not saying that all statutory requirements had been met, only that the surveillance was lawful under Article II powers. That might explain the Feinstein amendment. It would apply to all letters, not just to the one that White House Counsel signed.

  29. allie says:

    thanks for explaining this. i guess this is what her form response to my email said. But i just skimmed it, because i have no respect left for her. i was very pleased with the way she handled the attorney firings at 1st only to watch her sell out. i hope, but doubt, that she does not sell out/or casch in, at the expense 0f the constitution again.

  30. wigwam says:

    DiFi:

    All that is required is that the citizen act in good faith.

    Yet again the good-faith variant of the infamous Nuremberg Defense. How many of those who were “just following orders” were doing so in bad faith?

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