The Government Dodges and Weaves on al-Haramain

While I agree with bmaz that the government response in al-Haramain repeats a lot of tired arguments, I’m utterly fascinated by the dodging and weaving they do to try to persuade Vaughn Walker not to impose sanctions on them. I’m fairly sure that Anthony Coppolino (the government lawyer in this) ended up canceling his Memorial Day plans last weekend and has been working on this dance ever since.

Before I explain why, understand the challenge. Normally, when the government invokes state secrets, the evidence in question is just removed from the case, as if it didn’t exist. Walker has ruled that FISA trumps state secrets, and so he can review the evidence to see whether al-Haramain was illegally surveilled; he has also said that to proceed in the case, al-Haramain must have a means–via access to (at a minimum) Walker’s rulings and possibly also the wiretap log and the government’s declarations–to litigate the suit. But the government maintains the al-Haramain lawyers absolutely cannot see those documents. So Walker, last week, proposed just skipping the tedious litigation step, and just declaring that the government could not oppose al-Haramain’s claim it had been illegally wiretapped, and proceeding to the penalty phase (mind you, as bmaz has pointed out, that’d involve other discovery claims, but let’s put those aside for the moment). This filing is the government’s attempt to continue to claim state secrets, even in a crime that Congress has specifically prohibited.

The government starts by focusing attention exclusively on whether it should be sanctioned for refusing al-Haramain’s lawyers access to the documents in this case, and away from whether it should be sanctioned for illegally wiretapping al-Haramain. And it pretends that it has not ignored Walker’s order that they at least propose some way to litigate this.

The Government regrets that the Court has now suggested that actions it has taken in this litigation may warrant sanctions. We respectfully but firmly disagree. As set forth more fully below, the imposition of discovery sanctions would be unjustified because the Government has not violated any Court order or otherwise acted in a manner warranting sanctions. The Government has merely declined voluntarily to agree to a protective order that would, in the Government’s view, require disclosures that would irretrievably compromise important national security interests. That conduct cannot be a basis for sanctions.

[snip]

Thus, there is no basis for concluding under Fed. R. Civ. P. 37(b)(2) that the Government has failed to obey an order to provide discovery—much less for imposing a liability finding as a sanction.

By shifting attention away from the government’s refusal to even propose a protective order and towards the fact that Walker has not yet ordered the government turn over the wiretap log, the government is hoping to invent a reason to appeal. 

It then claims the central issue is a separation of powers issue on whether Walker can force the government to turn over material covered by state secrets to plaintiffs.

The Government recognizes that the underlying dispute in this case raises the fundamental separation-of-powers question concerning whether the Court has the ultimate authority under the Foreign Intelligence Surveillance Act (FISA) to order the disclosure of state secrets to a private party over the Government’s objection.

Perhaps I’m misreading Walker’s proposed action from last week (lawyers, help me out here), but I think this misrepresents what is going on. Walker has proposed a way forward, after all, that doesn’t require discovery. That way forward involves sanctions and the removal of the government’s ability to claim it didn’t wiretap al-Haramain. But it doesn’t require discovery (with the caveat I made above). What the government appears to be ignoring is the possibility that a Judge can accept their state secrets claim, but at the same time prevent it from using it as a way to cover up its own crimes (which is, of course, the state secrets bills winding through Congress propose). 

After having said it doesn’t want to re-litigate Walker’s decision that FISA trumps state secrets "in the context of the present discovery issue" (which is a load of horse shit if I ever saw one–that is precisely what they’re trying to do, and they repeatedly bitch about it in this filing), it invokes the ruling the 9th made that the wiretap log in this case does qualify for state secrets. Perhaps not surprisingly, the government pretends that the declarations submitted to support the state secrets claim remain the ones that were submitted in 2007, though we know the declarations (though not the documents supporting the invocation itself) have been resubmitted to fix the inaccuracies they had under Bush.

Indeed, the Ninth Circuit has already concluded, after conducting “a very careful” review of those explanations, that the basis for the privilege was “exceptionally well documented.”

Then, curiously, the government includes this detail, describing a review "after" the decision from the 9th, that sustained the claim of state secrets.

Furthermore, even after the Ninth Circuit issued its decision, an additional review was conducted at the highest levels of the Department of Justice to determine whether continued invocation of the privilege was warranted in response to the plaintiffs’ claims under FISA.

Most likely, this was a review under Eric Holder, given his claim that they have reviewed the state secrets claims that Bush made. But I wonder whether it’s also an attempt to claim they’ve reviewed the documents since they corrected Bush’s lies and that they believe those, too, are covered under state secrets? As if that’s the same as review by the 9th.

Then, in the section laying out their version of the history of this case (which is a different version than the one Walker himself wrote just one week ago), the government tries to pretend that–in addition to ordering the government to do things in preparation for a ruling from him on how to move forward in the case, he didn’t also ask for proposals from them on how to do so.

But the Court again did not order the disclosure of classified information to plaintiffs’ counsel. Rather, the Court ordered only that “members of plaintiffs’ litigation team . . . obtain the security clearances necessary to be able to litigate the case, including, but not limited to, reading and responding to the court’s future orders.” Id. The Court directed the Government to arrange for plaintiffs’ counsel “to apply for TS/SCI clearance and [that it] shall expedite the processing of such clearances so as to complete them no later than Friday, February 13, 2009.”

They do this so they can maintain the fiction that Walker hasn’t been ordering them to come up with some way to litigate this, so they can further claim that they haven’t blown off any of his orders. 

Though in a refreshing switch, they at least admit that Walker ruled that FISA preempts state secrets back in July, a ruling they did not appeal.

On July 2, 2008, the Court denied the Government’s second dispositive motion and concluded, inter alia, that FISA Section 1806 preempts the state secrets privilege. See In re: Nat’l Security Agency Telecomm. Records Litig., Al-Haramain Islamic Found. v. Bush, 564 F. Supp. 2d 1109, 1115-25 (N.D. Cal. July 2, 2008). In its ruling, the Court did not direct that classified information be made available to plaintiffs’ counsel for further Section 1806(f) proceedings. On the contrary, the Court held that plaintiffs must first establish their standing.

Note the trick though: they’re trying to make standing a separate issue so as to excuse their own failure to appeal this when they should have. Which brings us to my favorite passage in the entire filing.

The Government’s privilege assertion has successfully protected facts that would be relevant to whether or not plaintiffs have standing, and whether the Government is liable for the claims alleged.

See how it glides seamlessly from standing to liability? It does so, of course, on a program that involves massive collection and data mining of telecom signals. Frankly, given everything before Walker, we’re probably no longer talking "standing," because you’ve got standing and so do I and Walker has seen proof of it. And frankly, does so in a filing in which the government has at least rhetorically accepted Walker’s ruling the FISA trumps state secrets (meaning it shouldn’t be able to shield liability). 

So ultimately, they’re stuck, once again, begging Walker to hand them some reason to appeal so they can get a second bite at using state secrets to hide their own criminality.

For these reasons, as set forth further below, the imposition of Rule 37(b)(2) discovery sanctions would be improper in this case, and the Government respectfully urges the Court to pursue a way forward that balances the interests of all sides by allowing appellate review of the significant questions at hand before the Government’s privilege assertion is negated. Specifically, the Government respectfully requests that this Court reconsider its decision not to certify the case for interlocutory appeal. If the Court is not willing to do so, then the Government suggests that the way to obtain resolution of this dispute would be for the Court to issue an order over the Government’s objection concerning the disclosure of classified information to the plaintiffs’ counsel, and then for the Government to consider its options for appellate review of such an order.

This is a far more sophisticated argument than they’ve been using (Walker’s discussion of sanctions seems to have cleared Coppolino’s head a bit). But it’s still a beg to get state secrets back long after Walker said they couldn’t use state secrets to hide their own crime.

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58 replies
  1. brantl says:

    Do you think Walker is going to buy any of this crap? Or that he’ll be reversed on appeal?

  2. Leen says:

    So how big of a distance is it between a “ruling” and a “suggestion”

    “Walker has ruled that FISA trumps state secrets,”

    “The Government regrets that the Court has now suggested that actions it has taken in this litigation may warrant sanctions”

    • MarkH says:

      As I see it,

      A ruling is official action – done.

      A ’suggestion’ implies to me something which the court has ’said’, but which has not yet reached it’s conclusion.

  3. klynn says:

    The Government regrets that the Court has now suggested that actions it has taken in this litigation may warrant sanctions.

    That reads like a threat towards Walker. The Government regrets that the Court has decided that the Government actions it has taken in this case may warrant sanctions? Regrets Walker’s positions on their poor actions?

    My. That is…arrogant.

  4. klynn says:

    There seem to be a number of “loaded” phrases in the Government response.

    Would appreciate bmaz to weigh in on some of the phrasing.

    Thanks for this post EW.

  5. wavpeac says:

    Let’s get this parsing show on the road folks!! This seems fascinating to me, and I can’t wait to hear what the others on this board have to say about this. IWIWAL

  6. Peterr says:

    So ultimately, they’re stuck, once again, begging Walker to hand them some reason to appeal so they can get a second bite at using state secrets to hide their own criminality.

    I am impressed at Walker’s ability (thus far) to avoid being distracted by the bright shiny objects that the government is putting on display in the absence of ordinary legal logic and the apparently plain facts of the case.

    I say “apparently” with regard to those facts since he’s seen them and we haven’t — but he seems pretty convinced that the plaintiffs have a legitimate beef that deserves a hearing in court.

  7. klynn says:

    bmaz, IANAL (and I have to review with each update on this case, so sorry.)

    Can US vs. Reynolds be used to push the Government to make the Government prove they are not misusing States Secrets privilege? Wasn’t the in camera review suggestion by the Courts a way of saying, “Prove no misuse of privilege,”?

    Didn’t Reynolds conclude States Secrets was not to be lightly invoked? Since the al Haramain’s lawyers saw some of the documents in question, and as of yet, nothing was “exactly” compromised in terms of national security; isn’t the government walking on “lightly invoking” the privilege which would then revoke claiming SS privilege (at least irt the call logs?)

    • bmaz says:

      Reynolds as it has been commonly applied stands for almost exactly the opposite of that. That is precisely what Walker is trying to overcome.

      • klynn says:

        Totally left out the important context of my question…

        I should have included in my question… Didn’t the records in Reynolds eventually get declassified a little while back, showing that States Secrets privilege was misused by the Government in Reynolds?

        Does not historic conclusion of the misuse of SSP by the Executive in Reynolds deem judicial check on Executive Power as vital now?

        Can that history be used at all in this case?

        So I should have asked if Reynolds can be used in making the reverse argument, showing historical use of lightly invoking privilege? Thus, misuse of SSP as Reynolds goes?

        • Mary says:

          The case as a case stands for what it stands for, so a District Court in particular would have a hard time saying that its holdings can be ignored. But this is why facts are so important (the issue I kept raising with the OLC opinions prior to the releases of the Bybee Torture II and the Bradbury memos – reliance opinions have to have facts) to case law. Certainly, what the facts have demonstrated is that the Executive branch lied to the Judicial branch. The highest level of gov officers swore out false affidavits, they bore false witness. So I do think that the court might be justified, based on the factual components that have since been revealed, in asking for more from the Exec.

          In particular, though, I’d love sit through some oral argument on State’s secrets were DOJ gets asked about Reynold’s – do you still stand by it as a state secret? If so, why? If that is your version of a “state secret” at DOJ, is that reasonable and if you are not reasonable should you receive any deference at all? If you concede now that it was not a state secret and that the Executive branch lied to the Judicial branch – how many bites of that apple should the Exec get?

        • bmaz says:

          Your @18 is correct; this is exactly what I have meant for the better part of a year now when I have said that “Walker is boxing the government into a corner”. It has been a slow, but uncommonly pleasurable thing to watch a Federal judge actually give a damn about civil liberties and take the time and effort to get and stay a couple of steps ahead of the plodding recalcitrant secret government. However this ultimately plays out, so far Vaughn Walker has been nothing short of heroic and amazing.

          As to your @22, don’t forget the most recent 9th Circuit decision in Mohamed v. Jeppesen, which does chase after the folly of Reynolds in a substantive way. So there is a sound path in the 9th for Walker to sidestep Reynolds.

        • Mary says:

          re the 9th/Jeppeson – that forum shopping thing may not have worked out as well for them as they were hoping.

          re Vaughn – he’s just been so damned smart, it’s almost been unsettling. I didn’t start up following closely on these cases bc I never thought that there would be much happening until they got to the Sup Ct. To watch him take all Gov’s games and link up consequences to each one, and to hold them to their own “strict constructionist” standards on their legislation and to frame up the issues so that gov lawyers are FORCED to attach importance to them instead of just being flip little pissants – making them realize that they aren’t divorce lawyers encouraging the squabbles to pad out a bill, but instead are going to be treated like they have actual duties to the court – it’s been something.

        • bmaz says:

          No kidding on all that!

          As an aside, Walker is assigned the Prop 8 California gay marriage deal. That ought to be fun to watch him toy with the anti-civil liberties crowd there as well.

  8. BoxTurtle says:

    I’m thinking that this filing is exactly what Walker expected. I’m with bmaz, the government is desperate for a line of appeal out of Walkers court. Even if they lose, it will take time.

    Walker, I think, is just as determined to finish this. I’m thinking his hearing will be very short, as he’s already ruled on almost every aspect of the governments latest position except sanctions.

    I think Walker will sanction the government and move right to damages. And he will be very careful NOT to given the government a legit appeal. They’ll appeal anyway, of course.

    The only way the government is going to win this is to change the rules. Which means we should watch anything coming out of congress closely to see what Holy Joe tries to slip in.

    Boxturtle (Hopes Walker gavels the Government to pulp)

  9. WilliamOckham says:

    The government faces a number of seemingly insurmountable issues in this case. First, they’re playing a stupid word game with respect to clearance. I wouldn’t be surprised if Walker decides to make a ruling (giving the plaintiffs standing) that incorporates the substance of the sealed document without actually turning over the document to the lawyers. Courts are in the executive branch after all. Second, Walker’s reversed the Catch-22 that the plaintiffs were in so that it applies to the government. Originally, the plaintiffs knew they had been surveilled because they’d seen the sealed document, but had no way to prove it. Now that Walker has seen the document and ruled that FISA overrides states secret, the government is faced with a real no-win situation. If they keep protecting the sealed document, they face sanctions, the chance that they will lose ultimately anyway, and an almost certain ruling that the government broke the law which, if it’s overturned, will only be overturned on the grounds that the government successfully covered it up. If they turn over the document, they lose for sure.

    • BoxTurtle says:

      Courts are in the executive branch after all

      Quibble : The courts are in the judicial branch, the DOJ lawyers are executive.

      I agree with the rest of your post. I think BushCo left Obama a reeking pile and Obama has only bad options to deal with it.

      Boxturtle (Would mail Walker a stainless steel gavel, but it wouldn’t get through security in time)

      • WilliamOckham says:

        I meant to say “aren’t in the Executive Branch”. Serves me right for trying to dash off a comment on my way to a meeting. Free advice: Don’t use the Informix Windows driver in a heavily multi-threaded app to communicate with a Unix-based Informix server. Oh wait, that was the meeting I was at… Never mind.

  10. radiofreewill says:

    This case sounds a lot like the Billionaire Boys Club murder – a Ponzi scheme gone Bad – where the overly entitled ‘Executives’ left their To-Do list at the Crime Scene.

    The To-Do list contained ‘Sources and Methods’ for the Crime – iirc, item number one on the list was “Tie Levin Up”.

    Now, imagine if the BBC’s lawyers had gone to Court and said, “Judge, that To-Do list is Not Discoverable by the Plaintiffs until – at the earliest, and maybe not even then – a Crime has been Proven.”

    Even though the To-Do list itself reveals the M.O. of the Crime Alleged. IOW, the ’sources and methods’ are Descriptive of the Actual Crime itself, but – for that very reason – they can’t be used as ‘evidence’ in Court.

    “And, then,” say the BBC lawyers, “without the ’smoking gun’ To-Do list, the Plaintiffs have got nothing on us! However, Judge, since you ‘know’ – wink, wink – about the list, why don’t you work-up some damages for us, and we’ll consider paying – without conceding anything, of course!”

    Followed by the BBC lawyers snapping-shut their briefcases and walking-out on Judge Walker, throwing back over their shoulders, “It’s a Walk-Away, Vaughn! No harm, no foul! This is how we roll, baby! Have a nice day!”

    Thereby freeing the BBC ‘Executives’ to Scheme More Crimes against US.

    Is that what’s going on here – some kind of loophole ‘Justice’ that exempts Crimes Committed by Un-Constitutional but Privileged ‘Sources and Methods’?

  11. DWBartoo says:

    The “government” is a group of people who do, obviously, whatever THEY damned well please, aided and abetted by a complicit Congress.

    Who will blink, the “government” or the judge?

    (As radiofreewill suggests, ther “government” does not blink. THEY wink).

    “Secrecy” is the issue, it is the “key”.

    Now, I know that there who maintain that “we” MUST, ABSOLUTELY MUST!!!, have “our” (ahem) “government” have the right of keeping us, primarily, us, we, the “people” … us, ignorant of what is being done.

    Considering how this “privilege” has been abused in the past and how, we must assume (and imagine) it is likely being abused at present, we would be wise (and truly “exceptional”, as a people) to be less than sanguine about “believing” that our best, the “people’s” best, interests are really at issue.

    I suspect that we’ve now an imperial presidency, which both parties applaud.

    Congress is willing to be a tin can tied on behind and the judiciary is about to be put in its place.

    DW

  12. Mary says:

    This is what it has been ever since Walker drew a line – it’s all about getting to the interlocutory.

    They didn’t have grounds for an interlocutory appeal on the earlier order, bc it didn’t require an action from them and definitely not one that would be decisive in the case. So since then, they have been trying to, in essence, threaten Walker into dropping the whole thing or get out of his court and on to an appeal.

    They thought they could just sit back, be obstructive whiners, and eventually Walker would either cave or that they would get him to issue an actual turnover or access order that would give them grounds for an interlocutory appeal. Their thoughts IMO had been – we’ll dig in, get the order, but get him to certify for interlocutory appeal.

    Instead, Walker cut through the bull and framed his predecessor order in such a fashion that it imposed duties on them, withour requiring a specific action from them. So now, even if they get the interlocutory cert, it is really going to put them in a negative posture going forward. And it gives the lawyers and gov some real consequences to going forward with that interlocutory approach, bc it may well be interloc on a ruling in the alternative that requires turnover OR liabilty rather simply being an order on turnover. Walker set it up for an appellate court to be able to split the baby if they wanted

    Walker’s made their interlocutory gambit very expensive for gov.

    Of course I am dead set that, since gov has been violating law and the Constitution, the victims (not just the plaintiffs in this case) are entitled to know about the program itself. However, in this particular case I would think that, despite gov’s assertions:

    As the Ninth Circuit explained, the Government’s “[d]etailed statements underscore that disclosure of information concerning the Sealed Document and the means, sources, and methods of intelligence gathering in the context of this case would undermine the government’s intelligence capabilities and compromise national security.” Id. at 1204

    Gov here could easily provide information to the court as to how many instances of warrantless surveillance involved the plaintiffs so that the court could address liabilty without disclosing to the plaintiffs of the world at large the “means, sources and methods of intelligence gathering in the contest of this case” Having achieved standing, the simple solution for a gov that was truly interested in protecting “means, sources and methods” but equally interested in giving victims of gov crime recourse, would be to offer to ante up to the court the info needed for liabiltiy determinations.

    Telling US citizens how often their government engaged in warrantless surveillance against them in violation of the Constitution and in violation of FISA, so that statutory damages under FISA can be computed – that doesn’t reveal “sources and methods” It might reveal criminality that exceeded what anyone wanted to believe, but it doesn’t reveal secret

    means, sources and methods

    After all, the whole reason FISA exists is a public knowledge that the NSA and FBI and other gov agencies have the means to illegally surveill citizens. That’s the reason the 4th was drafted – even back then gov as a means of intrusion into a citizens privacy as understood. Revealing how often they used an already publically known means to achieve felonious results isn’t a state secret.

    And I still say that Keith is actually a states secrets case and so the Sup Ct has ruled already on the issue of whether or not Gov has a privilege to engage in unconstitutional, illegal, warrantless surveillance and defy court orders relating to that criminal activity as protected by state secrets privilege. Look at the affidavits filed in Keith and IMO it is clear they were making a states secrets argument there.
    fwiw

    • klynn says:

      Thank you Mary. You got to the heart of my questions.

      Gov here could easily provide information to the court as to how many instances of warrantless surveillance involved the plaintiffs so that the court could address liabilty without disclosing to the plaintiffs of the world at large the “means, sources and methods of intelligence gathering in the contest of this case” Having achieved standing, the simple solution for a gov that was truly interested in protecting “means, sources and methods” but equally interested in giving victims of gov crime recourse, would be to offer to ante up to the court the info needed for liabiltiy determinations.

      Telling US citiznes how often their government engaged in warrantless surveillance against them in violation of the Constitution and in violation of FISA, so that statutory damages under FISA can be computed – that doesn’t reveal “sources and methods” It might reveal criminality that exceeded what anyone wanted to believe, but it doesn’t reveal secret

    • LabDancer says:

      “Gov here could easily provide information to the court as to how many instances of warrantless surveillance involved the plaintiffs so that the court could address liabilty without disclosing to the plaintiffs of the world at large the “means, sources and methods of intelligence gathering in the contest of this case” Having achieved standing, the simple solution for a gov that was truly interested in protecting “means, sources and methods” but equally interested in giving victims of gov crime recourse, would be to offer to ante up to the court the info needed for liabiltiy determinations.”

      Mary – IMO you’ve succeeded in moving the DISCUSSION forward here, which is good; but not the SOLUTION.

      Assume the government were to suddenly turn around and say in essence: Okay judge, we’re going to cooperate. Here’s an itemized list of every day on which we wiretapped AH — we’re not admitting illegally, but we’re respecting you’ve found that and extending the logic of your finding WILL find all of that illegal — plus an itemized list of all the steps taken against AH which AH might conceivably argue caused it real monetizable damages — which we expect AH itself might flesh out and in response to that we realize we may already have tied our hands preventing us from launching a meaningful complete challenge to that proffer.

      Fine and good: but how does AH, or the public, or Judge Walker know the government is not being disingenuous in its admissions? That’s the implied meaning in the re-filings, after all: that the government tried to get away with lying to the court at the outset. So: what’s the appropriate level of assurance to the court — and AH — that it is NOT lying NOW?

      So, with respect for you and your analysis Mary, I don’t see how the government proffering unverifiable stipulations is going to foreclose the damages inquiry, the lawsuit, and the problem.

      • Peterr says:

        The answer is likely to be “once.”

        Of course, that one instance of surveillance lasted for several years . . . and may be ongoing.

        That, then, would point to “menas, sources, and methods” in ways that the government would certainly find problematic.

      • Mary says:

        I’m not proferring it as a solution – I’m countering the argument that providing such information would be providing the plaintiff and public with information as to sources and methods.

        On the rest of it – I think you have had and continue to have a situation where this court has been provided with info on the program, so I don’t think you’d be looking something that is more unverifiable than it would be if, for example, the program were openly acknowledged to the plaintiffs and public the same as it has been acknowledged to the courts. And to be honest, what are your thinking exists, even if you have an open acknowledgement, that can be better “verified” with respect to the numeric instances of crimes if the information that the judge has is shared with the plaintiffs?

        No court is going to let plaintiffs lawyers go rummaging around in NSA databases – that’s just not going to happen. So the damages would always depend on responsive affidavits based on reviews filed with the court.

        I’m not saying I want the solution of gov anteing up with sealed filings to the court explaining what they’ve done to arrive at the instances of surveillance under the program and the court then issuing a liability determination based on that info — I don’t want it and can argue a lot of reasons why it is insufficient. But with respect to the argument gov is making, that there can not be a liability determination under FISA (could there ever be under their formulation?) bc it would involve gov having to give plaintiffs and possibly the public info on means, sources and methods – that’s just false. It wouldn’t.

        Would we all tend to think that the same gov that has lied repeatedly would also lie in their sealed filings with court that the court uses to make the liablity determination? Sure. But look at what happens even with access orders from the court. At some point, to determine instances of illegal surveillance, someone is going to have to accept affidavits bc it is absolutely unfeasbile to turn plaintiffs’ lawyers and/or their IT contractors loose at NSA. So what you basically have is still having to rely on affidavit type info provided. What you get, though, is the advocacy setting making it more likely that the orders related to the production and compilations are tougher and that issues as to information that on its face seems unlikely get better challenges, and maybe also if things are handled publically enough you get whistleblowers who might object to blatantly false info if they see it is being provided.

        But I don’t think you can spin a “solution” scenario where plaintiffs go trawling though the NSA collections.

        • LabDancer says:

          Firstly, just as I wasn’t criticizing you for not coming up with a solution — it’s the court’s job, and in a case of first impression, and Judge Walker’s seen things we haven’t — I was not suggesting anything like or close to the image you present of the plaintiffs’ lawyers ‘rummaging around’ the NSA treasure hoard. I WAS suggesting — well, I’ll go further: I ASSERTED — that damages discovery cannot be resolved simply on the government’s stipulations where the government has already shown this level of inclination to manipulate, mislead and obfuscate.

          Now, you suggest — I think ASSERT — that the court has no option here but to work out the problem relying on government affidavits. I readily agree that’s an option, because it’s always open for the court to judge that, notwithstanding the past misbehavior, the court can as a matter of policy and sufficiency choose to go that route. The problem is where the reasoning underlying that choice is opaque, and this is where the plaintiff lawyers have a lot of room to erect a due process argument.

          That’s related to but DIFFERENT from the question of what the court might choose to do with such affidavit evidence. The threshold questions are: Why should the court believe that evidence, why should the plaintiffs accept it, and how can the court articulate the latter?

          IMO the answer may lie in the FISA 1978/FISA 2008 process as Judge Walker has delineated it, and for the judge to use the court’s powers and expend some of the court’s credibility to proceed to conduct sufficient inquiry of the information provided to determine the reliability of the government’s proferr. IMO that’s not categorically distinct from what the federal court’s have become used to doing with classified information.

          Moreover, the way I’ve been reading Judge Walker’s opinions and directions through his orders is that he’s recognizing the possibility [probability] of distinctions between what the government must show the court to deal with the court’s duties and powers and what the government might have to show the plaintiffs’ lawyers to satisfy the plaintiffs’ rights within the terms of the lawsuit. The impression I have is that Judge Walker figured/figures the parties to the lawsuit know better than he does the nature of their anxieties and concerns and moreover have a far greater incentive than he has to work those out with each other, rather than his coming in like Solomon.

          But there’s no point to threatening to this exercise unless the court proceeds to use its powers so when one side simply refuses to engage. I agree with the implication that Judge Walker will not proceed to simply give away state secrets; but the impression is that he is not buying where the government has drawn the line and is prepared to use some very serious court powers — the kind bmaz’ comments have focused on — to force it to draw one that’s rationalized and shows greater respect for the plaintiffs’ rights and the court’s jurisdiction. I also have the impression that he’s proceeding in a manner roughly analogous to what statutes and case law very can require of employers before they fire employee require: graduated punishment. That doesn’t necessarily mean it’ll take a long time [as these things go — everything about the law is slow], but I expect it’ll be in steps.

        • Mary says:

          . . .for the judge to use the court’s powers and expend some of the court’s credibility to proceed to conduct sufficient inquiry of the information provided to determine the reliability of the government’s proferr. IMO that’s not categorically distinct from what the federal court’s have become used to doing with classified information.

          emph added

          It’s not categorically distinct at all, but what you are describing is what I described – a situation where it is the court, not the plaintiff’s lawyers, that is getting the access to the info from which the liability determintation would be made. So while my post was about the counter to gov’s argument on “means, methods and sources” argument. Revealing the amount of violations to the plaintiff/public does not reveal “means, methods and sources.”

          It seemed to me that you were then highlighting, not a response to govs means, methods and sources argument, but rather that my response on that argument (that the no. of violations isn’t implicated by those items) didn’t solve the “how can you believe them if all they do is make filings with the court” issue.

          So I was responding to your observation that, “Fine and good: but how does AH, or the public, or Judge Walker know the government is not being disingenuous in its admissions?” with the reality that no one is ever going to actually get access to the actual NSA records and that’s the only way you’ll ever “know” that gov isn’t being fibby. Since the court has already been provided with info under seal on “the program” I think the court has a good leg to stand on to say, “give me the number of violations” and would have some access to information to follow up on the credibility of what gov says and also to structure how the info is to be provided to, for example, hold the most lawyers’ possible feet to the fire on due diligence. There’s lots of ways to get into that (including perhaps some inventive approaches, like, for example, requiring that the info filed with Walker also be certified to the Chief FISCt Justice who has had more extensive briefing on the program and also has info on the applications made and firewall orders – so irregularities might be harder to conceal — lots of things, not enough time to keep rambling on about options though).

          But those are things that the court would be doing. What I tried to point out on that, though, is that even in an advocacy setting where info on “the program” as it affected plaintiffs only is provided in a classified manner to plaintiffs’ lawyers, they are still going to have to rely on gov affidavits, summaries etc. as well, bc it is never going to be the case that anyone is given access to the full monty of NSA records taht would be needed to determine if gov is fibbing or not.

          What you get as a benefit from the advocacy approach, though, is presumably a more thorough, direct and less deferential response to gov’s profers, which might result in more reliable info. But FISA itself was not set up under “real law” (IMO) and isn’t a advocacy setting. So I think that the court could defensibly do what I wouldn’t like, which is to direct that gov file all the info with the court on the no of violations and info on how it was compiled, etc. and then tell plaintiffs – here it is, you were illegally wiretapped x,y,z no of times, your damages are $________ and if the court did that, gov wouldn’t have a leg to stand on imo on the “means, methods and sources” argument for state secrets.

          Now I think what you are saying is spelling out something that I assumed – which is that the court could have the power to tell gov that it wants more than a raw figure, it wants info on how that was derived, what due diligence was involved etc. and might require additional due diligence and representations. I think that is correct – sure the court can do that and the more gov has been fibby – plus the less there is an advocacy setting – the more the court would even be required to do that. And the court does have some means, methods and sources info that has been provided to it under seal to help it with keeping feet to the fire.

          The court could also come up with the $ figure but still take legal argument on things like whether or not gov has to destroy (or has already destroyed) and whether or not plaintiffs also get copies of the transcripts or emails etc. surveilled, based solely on the issue that gov has admittedly has them and obtained them outside of FISA, without getting into the means, methods and sources. That could be intersting too.

          But I think in the end you are saying what I said, but coming at it from a different direction and priority – as how do you “solve” the problem of gov lawyers fibbing vs how do you get around “means, methods and sources” arguments. I think on that the reality is you can’t really solve the problem. All you can do is push hard for advocacy, since it is the best route the world has found yet to get to the best results and it is our Constitutional roadmap. But even without advocacy, under a FISA model where that Constitutional protection is apparently “written out” of law, a judge has a lot of power to try to force better compliance from gov.

          There are a lot of things that could be tried on the innovative front – they might be stricken or not, but it’s not like there isn’t a lot of room for possible creativity. For example, a court might consider ordering Gov to offer up a gov lawyer or ex-gov lawyer (like a Baker) with security clearances and briefed on the program to act as a kind of Guardian Ad Litem for the plaintiffs interests in reviewing info on no. of times surveilled, etc.

          Anyway – need to get back to real work

      • timbo says:

        My guess is that, just like the CIA torture tapes, and the White House emails, etc, the list of when and where in this case has been destroyed…and that’s what the government is trying to avoid revealing…that an unknown number of folks were illegally wiretapped for an unknown length of time and that the government knew about this and that it was, in fact, official policy to do it. Because, if the argument is that “we did it to protect you” then how do you prove that if you’ve destroyed all basis to come to that conclusion?

        On the other hand, maybe they still have everything and it proves that it didn’t protect much of anyone…except those in power who “probed” their political components incessantly and illegally, un-Constitutionally, and in violation of their oaths of office.

  13. plunger says:

    Interesting torture revelations by Retired Gen. Ricardo Sanchez, the former commander of coalition forces in Iraq

    http://rawstory.com/08/news/20…..aq-abuses/

    Top Iraq general is said to support ‘Truth Commission’ to investigate Iraq abuses

    Excerpt:

    While in Iraq, the general authored a memo allowing the harsh interrogation of prisoners in Iraq, though the approved techniques didn’t go as far as those later backed by Bush administration lawyers. The techniques he approved included environmental (temperature) manipulation, prisoner isolation, sleep deprivation and “convincing the detainee that individuals from a country other than the United States are interrogating him.”

    Would that other country be Israel? Were they in fact Israelis? Was that when the Israeli flags were wrapped around the muslim detainees being interrogated?

    • Garrett says:

      About false flag at AG:

      There is at least one story about it in the ACLU FOIA docs.

      I’m going on very hazy memory, but I think it was a “Moroccan,” and the MI was pissed that the MP flubbed the introduction.

      There was another incident where they dressed up a female noncom interrogator as an officer. It somewhat comes across that they were doing it for amusement.

      • MarkH says:

        Therefore their idea of torture is to bore the detainee out of their gourd with the headgear, gloves and other sensory deprivation stuff.

        Boredom and torture in paradise.

  14. TheraP says:

    Telling US citizens how often their government engaged in warrantless surveillance against them

    Let me guess: 24/7!

    • MarkH says:

      “24/7!” would be about “3.5 factorial” which is nonsense and that’s why government shouldn’t spy on people. There are 10 kinds of government people: those who can count to two, those who can’t and those who don’t have a clue.

      Say, why did the Taliban cross the road? To go to the barbershop! Haaa!

    • fatster says:

      Excellent news. Not that it’ll necessarily have the result it should have, but at least it’s being raised.

  15. LabDancer says:

    Government: “The Government recognizes that the underlying dispute in this case raises the fundamental separation-of-powers question concerning whether the Court has the ultimate authority under the …(FISA) to order the disclosure of state secrets to a private party over the Government’s objection”

    What “separation-of-powers” question are they talking about?

    The “underlying dispute”? Has to be code for “the lawsuit”.

    And, well, sure the LAWSUIT raises such a question; but this Court’s ANSWER is the veil-piercing power of the FISA process REPLACES the former-and-otherwise complete dark hole of state secrets.

    And WHY? Because Congress passed, and the President-of-that-day signed into law, the FISA process that effected such replacement, that’s why.

    So in effect we have the legislative branch and the executive branch AGREEING to alter the state secrets invocation [doctrine, privilege, what have you] … and how?

    By deferring the execution of the mechanics to the judicial branch.

    And PRESTO! — no more separation of powers problem.

  16. klynn says:

    Mary @ 22

    bmaz @ 25

    Thanks to both for all the clarification. It stinks that Reynolds can still stand as case law. Glad to know Mohamed v. Jeppesen has tried to punch holes in Reynolds

    Here’s hoping that Walker’s ruling on “FISA trumping SSP” allows for more holes to be punched in the unitary exec of SS Privilege and deem judicial check on Executive Power as vital, perhaps creating better case law than Reynolds from a Constitutional perspective on SSP.

  17. fatster says:

    Judge: Gitmo legal documents must be public

    Judge orders government to reveal unclassified documents in more than 100 Guantanamo Bay cases

    NEDRA PICKLER
AP News
    Jun 01, 2009 12:26 EST

    “The government said classified information had sometimes slipped out in unclassified versions, so the records needed to be private to protect national security. But U.S. District Judge Thomas Hogan said Monday the public has a right to access the records.”

    http://www.talkingpointsmemo.c…..hp?ref=fpa

    • Mary says:

      I wonder if that is what Sullivan was getting at in the Batarfi (sp?) transcript, when he was mentioning that he wanted some responsive info from gov lawyers on a topic that defense lawyers didn’t know about bc of under seal filings, and he kind of implied that he thought defense lawyers were going to know about it before too long.

      Argh – I really NEED to get to real work – bye y’all.

  18. Arbusto says:

    Where else except FDL can one get this great analysis. It gets my shriveled brain all atwitter! I hope Walkers boxing in the AAGs in this case reminds them, and other AAGs around the nation, that as Officers of the Court, they have responsibilities and accountability (that’s gone missing for too long) and could face personal, career changing sanctions for their actions.

  19. fatster says:

    Canadian at Guantanamo asks to dismiss US lawyers

    By MIKE MELIA, Associated Press Writer – Mon Jun 1, 12:43 pm ET

    GUANTANAMO BAY NAVAL BASE, Cuba – “A Canadian detainee at Guantanamo sought to dismiss his U.S. military defense attorneys Monday, saying he lost trust in the lawyers after seeing them fight among themselves in one of the highest-profile war crimes cases.

    “The complaint from Omar Khadr, who is charged with killing an American soldier in Afghanistan, came in the first open session of the Guantanamo tribunals since President Barack Obama put them on hold in January.

    . . .

    “Khadr, who was 15 years old when he was detained in 2002, said he trusts only his Canadian lawyers and he wants them to choose who should defend him against war crimes charges that include murder and conspiracy. The judge, Army Col. Patrick Parrish, said Khadr could meet with those attorneys before making a final decision. He set another hearing for July 13.”

    http://news.yahoo.com/s/ap/200…..ry_trial_2

    • bmaz says:

      The fight was one that was ginned up by Masciola to make Kuebler look bad. You see, Kuebler had been making waves and kicking asses, and the Obama/Militray command just couldn’t have that. This, from all appearances I have seen to date, is a fabricated pile of shit to get rid of Kuebler because he had been pissing off both the US and Canadian governments. Just cannot have a defense attorney that actually defends his client zealously you know.

      • skdadl says:

        That is exactly the case.

        On the one hand, Khadr’s Canadian lawyers, Dennis Edney and Nathan Whitling, have worked closely with Kuebler for several years, and Whitling argued the SCt case for disclosing evidence held by the cangov that was semi-successful. On the other, I’m assuming that they work with serious disadvantages within any system of yours, yes? I think they’ve had trouble even getting to GTMO.

        That report leaves open the possibility that Edney and Whitling could advise Omar to choose Kuebler, which would actually be a very smart way around Masciola.

  20. fatster says:

    MONDAY JUNE 1, 2009 05:02 EDT

    Obama’s support for the new Graham-Lieberman secrecy law

    Glenn Greenwald

    “But now — obviously anticipating that the Government is likely to lose in court again (.pdf) — Obama wants Congress to change FOIA by retroactively narrowing its disclosure requirements, prevent a legal ruling by the courts, and vest himself with brand new secrecy powers under the law which, just as a factual matter, not even George Bush sought for himself. 

    “The White House is actively supporting a new bill jointly sponsored by Sens. Lindsey Graham and Joe Lieberman — called The Detainee Photographic Records Protection Act of 2009 — that literally has no purpose other than to allow the government to suppress any “photograph taken between September 11, 2001 and January 22, 2009 relating to the treatment of individuals engaged, captured, or detained after September 11, 2001, by the Armed Forces of the United States in operations outside of the United States.”  As long as the Defense Secretary certifies — with no review possible — that disclosure would “endanger” American citizens or our troops, then the photographs can be suppressed even if FOIA requires disclosure.  The certification lasts 3 years and can be renewed indefinitely.  The Senate passed the bill as an amendment last week.”

    http://www.salon.com/opinion/g…..index.html

    • DrZen says:

      You are kidding me? Man, in a hundred years, people are going to look at your statute book and shake their heads, if you still have a statute book.

  21. radiofreewill says:

    So, the Wire-Tap Log on the al-Haramain Lawyers falls out from behind the Cloak of Secrecy – and actually gets ’seen’ by the al-Haramain Lawyers – before it gets clawed back into the Murk.

    The Log itself likely shows Data that came from the Telcos – Data for which there exist No FISA or FISCt Documents – Data produced as a result of “Rules of Engagement” for Targeting that are Inaccessible to the Courts and Congress.

    Is what Judge Walker has trapped under his Mason Jar a ‘one-off’ case of Illegal Wire-tapping, or a Piece of the Shadow Government?

  22. Mary says:

    OT – Judge Hogan’s order on the “unclassified returns” in the GITMO cases.

    http://www.scotusblog.com/wp/w…..6-1-09.pdf

    I think DOJ should give up on departments and offices and go with genus/species cards on the doors, bc they are running a freakin zoo over there.

    In response to all the habeas petitions for the “worst of the worst” gov has to make a filing, a “return” and they made “classified” returns for the court. Then they were required to also make unclassified returns for the defense lawyers. They did – but now say, “hey, ya know, maybe we messed up and maybe there’s some secret stuff in what we filed in the unclassified filings, so court, why doncha just treat all our unclassified returns in all the cases as if they were classififed too.

    Defense lawyers – uh,like HELLO – if you put together stuff that is supposed to be unclassified, maybe try doing your job?

    Press – “the First Amendment and common law afford the public a qualified right of access to the unclassified factual returns”

    Court – can you get me some DOJ lawyers with opposable thumbs that aren’t currently being utilized for see no evil, hear no evil, say no evil montages? I’ll give you to July 29.

    Re: the Press argument,

    Public interest in Guantanamo Bay generally and these proceedings specifically has been unwavering. The public’s understanding of the proceedings, however, is incomplete without the factual returns. Publicly disclosing the factual returns would enlighten the citizenry and improve perceptions of the proceedings’ fairness.

    the Court finds that under the First Amendment the public has a limited right to access the unclassified factual returns in these habeas proceedings. In light of the Court’s decision with respect to petitioners’ opposition, this finding only affects factual returns for a few petitioners.14 In such cases, the press may file, on or after September 29, 2009, a motion before the appropriate Merits Judge requesting an unprotected factual return

    Gov can, of course, object.

  23. fatster says:

    So this makes it ok, right?

    Gov’t source: Iraqi PM told Obama ‘Baghdad will burn’ if photos released
    – Stephen C. Webster

    From McClatchy Newspapers:
    “In the days leading up to a May 28 deadline to release the photos in response to an American Civil Liberties Union lawsuit, U.S. officials, led by Christopher Hill, the U.S. ambassador to Iraq, told Maliki that the administration was preparing to release photos of suspected detainee abuse taken from 2003 to 2006.

    “When U.S. officials told Maliki, “he went pale in the face,” said a U.S. military official, who along with others requested anonymity because of the matter’s sensitivity.
    . . .

    “Please bear in mind, McClatchy’s source here is an unnamed government official whose statements were apparently corroborated by …  An unnamed military official.”

    http://rawstory.com/blog/2009/…..-released/

  24. lysias says:

    That article in the Guardian that says Al-Libi was rendered via Diego Garcia also says he had been freed before he recently died:

    The other man rendered through the US base on the island was likely to be Libi, he added. While questioned in Egypt, Libi claimed that al-Qaida was in league with Saddam Hussein, a claim now accepted by the US to be false. He was recently freed and died in Libya two weeks ago.

    Has that been reported anywhere else?

  25. fatster says:

    Nadler To Hold Hearing On State Secrets

    By Zachary Roth – June 1, 2009, 6:47PM

    “Rep. Jerry Nadler (D-NY), who chairs the Constitution, Civil Rights and Civil Liberties subcommittee of the House Judiciary committee, will host hearings Thursday to examine how to curb abuse of the privilege, while protecting true state secrets.

    “Testifying at Nadler’s hearings will be Patricia Wald, a retired federal judge; Asa Hutchinson, the former GOP congressman from Arkansas; Ben Wizner of the ACLU; and Andrew Grossman of the Heritage Foundation.”

    http://tpmmuckraker.talkingpoi…..ref=fpbO/T

  26. fatster says:

    Cheney admits there was never any evidence tying Iraq, 9/11

    BY JOHN BYRNE 

Published: June 2, 2009 
Updated 2 minutes ago

    “In an interview with Fox News’ Greta van Susteren Monday, Cheney said there was no evidence tying Iraq and 9/11 — and that there never was.”

    http://rawstory.com/08/news/20…..ence-iraq/

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