US Detention System “Essentially Lawless”

Just in case you haven’t been following Balkinization since Marty Lederman went to work at DOJ, I wanted to link to this Jon Hafetz* post, which hits on a lot of the points that powwow and Mary raised in this thread yesterday.

But at Guantánamo, the road to justice remains the road less traveled. Holder also announced that five other Guantánamo detainees would be referred back to military commissions, including Abd al-Rahim al-Nashiri, the alleged mastermind of the 2000 bombing of the USS Cole. So, those accused of the 9/11 attacks go to civilian court, while those accused of other crimes are diverted to military commissions. Yes, al-Nishiri is accused of attacking a military target. But the attack occurred before the United States was engaged in any armed conflict and before the passage of the Authorization for Use of Military Force that the U.S. has relied on for the claimed armed conflict against al Qaeda. (In Hamdan, Justice Stevens described such retroactive use of military commissions as “insupportable”). As Deborah Pearlstein points out , the administration has failed to provide a consistent, let alone valid, legal theory why one case goes to a military commission and another to federal court—why one prisoner gets full due process in a federal trial while another receives due process lite in a refurbished commission. Military commissions may have a place in the limited circumstances of true necessity—where the civilian courts are not open, functioning, and capable of dispensing justice. But military “necessity” is not an excuse for the government to deviate from its regularly constituted courts because it lacks the evidence to convict. And even if that were not the reason (or the only reason) for using military commissions, it will be the enduring perception of America’s two-tiered system of justice.

Holder’s announcement, moreover, deals only with one slice of Guantánamo. In the eight years since President Bush first created military commissions, only three men have been tried by these supposed “war courts.” By contrast, more than 750 have been detained without trial and more than 200 remain in legal limbo. Military commissions have helped mask a much larger system of prolonged and indefinite detention without charge. This open-ended detention system has been one of the most brutal, arbitrary, and lawless aspects of Guantánamo.

Click through for the rest, including where Hafetz argues that, “U.S. detention policy will remain essentially lawless.”


*Mary (!) will be hosting an FDL Book Salon with Hafetz and Mark Denbeaux for a discussion of their book, The Guantanamo Lawyers: Inside a Prison Outside the Law on December 19.

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45 replies
  1. ART45 says:

    I have the feeling the Obama administration is keeping some big secret from the American people.

    If I had to guess, I’d guess it’s that both parties are complicit in subverting the rule of law.

    Except that’s no secret.

  2. cregan says:

    I agree with the point that the current plan is not very logical.

    Biggest problem to me is that if Holder goes through with this for the 5 in NYC, he will show that you CAN still convict someone even if they have been tortured. You can give them all the constitutional protections of the civil courts in the US and you can STILL convict even if they have been tortured.

    That’s not a very good message to send.

    Better to keep them in military tribunals and left this question open and argued about ad infinitum then go to the civil courts and settle it in concrete–torture is not a bar to successful prosecutions in civil court.

    • bmaz says:

      But the question would be “left open” there in military commissions too; there is no gain in that regard. Either way, the US has set an abominable standard that will haunt it and the world for generations. Quite frankly, in my eyes, it is worse to try to hide it behind kangaroo courts that are probably not legal to start with.

    • emptywheel says:

      I’ve actually thought about that–every person we convict for terrorism–and a number, but by no means all, of these guys ARE terrorists, we get deeper and deeper into our moral sewer for the torture we did to them.

      So what about asking the international court to try them? Granted, it would never happen, they they’d probably ask us to send Dick Cheney over on the same plane we sent KSM on. But I think bmaz is right–MCs only make it worse bc you’re sacrificing your entire legal system along with having tortured.

      • bobschacht says:

        So what about asking the international court to try them?

        Actually, I think this is a nifty idea. How about shipping those Uighurs that we can’t figure out what to do with, to the International Court

        Of course, the immediate answer is that we can’t do that because they’ll start asking questions in open court that we (i.e., Cheney/Bush/Obama) don’t want asked. But at some point, that cat is coming out of the bag. And then maybe the International Court would be the handiest way to dump all the remaining cases and be done with them.

        Bob in AZ

        • BoxTurtle says:

          Actually, I think this is a nifty idea. How about shipping those Uighurs that we can’t figure out what to do with, to the International Court

          Because we have no evidence that they broke any law. IIR, they were arrested for being muslim and an area where All Muslims Are Terrorists.

          International tribunal will never fly with ObamaCo. Any rational rules of evidence will result in too many Not Guilty verdicts.

          Boxturtle (Too say nothing of the “secret info” that might be exposed)

      • BoxTurtle says:

        Granted, it would never happen, they they’d probably ask us to send Dick Cheney over on the same plane we sent KSM on.

        I’m okay with that.

        Here’s my take: Those military “trials” aren’t going to hold up. They’ll be “tried”, convicted, and sentenced. Then either the detainees lawyer (if he gets a real one) or the ACLU will file in federal court challenging just about everything. Frankly, I don’t see the government winning more than two votes with the supremes if it gets that far. The regular courts are open, functioning, and eager to assert jurisdiction.

        Boxturtle (But it’ll enable ObamaCo to keep ’em locked up until after the 2012 election)

        • cregan says:

          That’s all well and good, but what are you going to do when KSM and the other four ARE convicted in civil court inspite of being tortured? Despite all the constitutional protections, etc. they still get convicted.

          I’d rather have it happen in the tribunals (since they are going to get convicted no matter what way you slice it) and then let the taint of that fog the question on whether a conviction in civil court with full protections can be obtained on someone who has been tortured.

          Get the picture?

          • dakine01 says:

            Well for one thing they won’t be convicted in “civil” court. They will be convicted in a civilian criminal court and sent to prison where we send most common criminals.

            If we treat them as Boogity-Boogity monsters to be feared, we give them far more credibility. When we treat them like the criminals they are, criminals whom our justice system and prison system are well equipped to handle, then we show them for what they are. Not something larger than life.

            When did we become such a nation of cowards that we have to give away our system for nothing? I grew up at a time when we played the “duck and cover” games in school. I participated in exercises while I was in the USAF where we knew if it was the real thing we were toast. I sat in the shelters where we made jokes about it being the real thing and everybody being crispy critters afterwards.

            We were no where near this fearful with thousands of warheads pointed directly at us.

          • bmaz says:

            I have got news for you, that happens in Federal courts across the land every day. Wrongfully obtained evidence, sometimes through coercion, is excluded and trial proceeds on the remaining evidence. That is nothing new, in terms of precedence or anything else. And it is far preferable to indicating to the world that we are too craven, cowardly and afraid to apply the best justice available, Federal courts, even if it is not perfect, to the situation.

            • cregan says:

              I know it happens that evidence obtained illegally is excluded and other evidence not so obtained convicts.

              But, this is different to me. Again, getting a conviction is not the important point. Either way, civil, or let us say civilian, court or military tribunal, KSM is far more likely to be convicted than not. So, the conviction is not important.

              But, when he does get convicted in civilian court, with access to all the normal and usual constitutional protections, you are going to be making a statement–whether you want to or intend to–that torture was not any kind of barrier to a conviction. That the guy could be tortured extensively and it didn’t matter, we still convicted him.

              A lot of people are going to latch onto that. It also is going to muddy this intended image of “The US legal system is a wonderful, fair system–look at it work so well.”

              By the way, I don’t think there really is going to be this big PR benefit. The people who doubt what we are all about are going to STILL call it a kangaroo court–civilian court with a great judge, etc. won’t matter.

              It’s like Milli Vanilli. If they came out with a live singing show, their fans would say, “Oh how wonderful.” The non-fans would still say they were bogus.

              It is not a question of being afraid, it is a question of unintended consequences and planned benefits being a mirage at this point. Maybe earlier, 6 years ago, the planned benefits would have been great.

                • cregan says:

                  Not really. With the military tribunal, yes, you get the conviction inspite of torture, but the case can be made that it would not have been possible in the civilian court, so it is unresolved.

                  To me better to leave unresolved and with some doubt than convict in a civilian court and leave NO doubt.

                  At that point, you have confirmed that even the venerable and lauded US justice system with all it Constitutional protections in place and operating cannot stop a defendant who has been tortured from being convicted.

                  And, the persons who favor torture will ride that to the bank.

                  • bmaz says:

                    There is no factual nor actual basis for that argument or conclusion whatsoever; it is made up from apparent thin air. AND we look like craven cowards to boot.

                    Agreed on the Trojans; they will be back next year. I think they had bigger issues in both lines than was let on with all the focus on Barkley. They also lost two stud linebackers and the replacements have been works in progress.

                    • cregan says:

                      USC was just really surprising. From the way they played at Ohio State, they looked like they were ready. And, it wasn’t like Ohio State later folded and so made the victory against them less valid.

                      So, I was really shocked when they lost the third game.

                      For the issue at hand, I don’t see how it is made up. If they are convicted, there is no question it will demonstrate in some minds completely that even with full rights given and used, torture will still not bar a defendant from getting convicted.

                      I think both torture supporters and those in the Middle East (except a few highly educated scholars) will see it that way. One side thinking it supports them, and other side thinking there is no fairness in the US justice system if a tortured defendant can still get convicted.

                      You can say Bush was the source of that, and you’d be right, but it is the US justice system that will be blamed. So, rather than enhancing the reputation, it will tarnish it.

                      Either Military tribunal or civilian courts would get tarnished, but I’d much rather have the tribunals tarnished–since they are to a degree anyway–than bring down the rep of civilian courts.

                    • bmaz says:

                      Well, I respect the opinion, but will continue to disagree. That is okay. Who knows, the facts as they play out may make fools of both of us.

                    • cregan says:

                      I don’t think there is any way to control what is about to happen. No matter how well you plan, the opposition always comes up with an angle you hadn’t anticipated.

                      It is going to be an interesting show, that part is certain.

  3. cregan says:

    I guess my point is that you have already made those sacrifices. If you then go further and try in the civil court AND convict, then you have demonstrated that torture is not a bar to successful prosecution in the full civil court system.

    That doesn’t send a very good message for the future–some other guy who decides to follow Bush; “Hey, it didn’t cause them any trouble,etc.” ;it can happen.

    To me, better to use the tribunal. Then, if you get a conviction, people will argue whether you would have gotten one in civil court and the uncertainty would act as some brake on someone getting the idea in the future.

    Leave the question open of whether torture taints a situation so badly you can’t get any conviction rather than settle it in favor of torture.

  4. bobschacht says:

    Thanks for this diary, EW.
    How long can the day of reckoning be postponed? How long can Obama/Holder drag their feet without falling themselves into the briar patch? How long before the Tar Baby becomes *theirs* (i.e., Holder’s/Obama’s), to have and to hold forever?
    (Please pardon the mixed metaphors.)

    Some would say the tar baby is already theirs. My guess is that Obama and Holder have thought carefully about this, and that clean-up day is on their calendars. I’m wondering if Year 3 of his first term would be the best time, strategically speaking.

    At any rate, I do hope they have an action plan in mind to clean up the mess.

    Bob in AZ

  5. Sara says:

    I have been mulling over the critical distinction between al-Nashiri and KSM which would send one to the Military Commission route, and the other to the Southern District of New York.

    Don’t know if I am near correct, but all the victims in the Cole bombing were US Navy uniformed personnel, on duty on a warship, and I just wonder if the reason for matching Nashiri with the Military Commission system has to do with the nature of the dead and injured, and the financial loss of the US Navy when the ship was seriously damaged.

    In contrast, KSM’s 9/11 charges are probably going to involve intentional first degree murder of app. 3000 American and other civilians, on US soil, with the identity of the victims just essentially random — who was at work that day. The only relationship of KSM’s victims to the military is those who died in the Pentagon when Flight 77 struck — and they are by far the minority here. A significant part of the Pentagon dead and injured were also Civilian DOD employees.

    Does anyone else see this distinction as meaningful, possibly the basis for the sort routine as to who goes to Article III courts, and who gets charged in Military Commissions?

    • bmaz says:

      A basis, yes. “The” basis, I dunno; I think it is more complicated than that. For instance the nature, source, credibility and admissibility of the evidence set of al-Nashiri versus KSM.

      • Sara says:

        Yes, but if you know decisions based on some sort of distinction are going to be appealed even pre-trial, don’t you try to keep it as narrow and simple as possible so as to limit the grounds of appeal?

    • powwow says:

      Does anyone else see this distinction as meaningful, possibly the basis for the sort [of] routine as to who goes to Article III courts, and who gets charged in Military Commissions [where the Executive Branch alone is ‘judge, jury, and executioner’]?

      That is – in a vacuum – an understandable attempt to create a logical, meaningful distinction and reason for the just-announced decisions of the DOJ, but it happens to ignore and override the Constitutional structure and limitations on federal police authorities of our system of government, as well as international law’s threshold requirement that an “armed conflict” exist before any “war crimes” (as opposed to domestic/peacetime crimes) can be charged or be said to have been committed.

      As former Military Commission defense counsel Major David Frakt testified to Congress on July 30, 2009:

      In fact, in my estimation, there has been only one legitimate war crime charged against any Guantanamo detainee, the [war crime] charge of “perfidy” against Abdal-Rahim Al-Nashiri for his alleged role in the attack on the U.S.S. Cole in October 2000. But even though perfidy is a traditional offense under the law of war, convicting Mr. Al-Nashiri of this offense requires accepting the dubious legal fiction that the United States was at war with Al Qaeda nearly a year before 9/11, for the law of war only applies during a war. In fact, most of the offenses with which the so-called “high value detainees” are charged relate to events which occurred on or before 9/11, when the U.S. was not involved in an armed conflict with Al Qaeda.

      As Deborah Pearlstein – who’s one of the few non-administration witnesses asked to testify before Congress this year about Military Commissions, and who’s kept an eye on the state of the MCA law – explained Friday, in a Balkinization piece linked in Hafetz’s post:

      As the Supreme Court has consistently recognized, our constitutional structure reflects a strong preference that determinations of guilt and innocence be carried out by independent [non-Executive Branch] courts created under Article III. In keeping with this constitutional presumption, the extent to which the Court has approved the use of Article I [Congressionally-authorized, Executive Branch-operated] military courts [such as UCMJ courts-martial], even with congressional authorization, has been strictly limited. As the Hamdan Court itself noted, military commissions are courts of necessity, whose use must be incident to the conduct of a particular war.

      So in each case to come before the commissions, we must ask (1) What is the necessity that makes this forum appropriate? What jurisdictional gap exists that would foreclose prosecution of Al Nashiri (the accused USS Cole bomber) in federal criminal courts? What relevant principle distinguishes his crime (accused of attacking a military target) from KSM’s (accused of attacking civilians)? And (2) To what armed conflict are these offenses incident? In this respect KSM’s case is easier; the Administration is hardly alone in viewing the attacks of 9/11 as the initiation of a war against the United States. But as far as one can tell from government allegations to date, Al Nashiri is accused of involvement in a conspiracy dating to 1998. See, e.g., here (scroll down). Whether or not one can make the case under international humanitarian law (IHL) [the law of war] that there was a de facto non-international armed conflict already under way between the United States and Al Qaeda in the 1990’s (and the case under IHL is far from clear), our own Congress didn’t pass the Authorization for the Use of Military Force against Al Qaeda until after September 11, 2001.

      And that’s coming from someone who generally ‘soft-shoes’ the matter, I think – in other words, that’s a conservative reading of the legal viability of today’s military commissions. Military Commissions whose sole, semi-legitimate Constitutional role, as Mary so eloquently elaborated yesterday, is to assert a form of martial law by the military over a lawless, battlefield theater during an armed conflict.

      For more on the history of military commissions and tribunals in America, see this Louis Fisher report for the Congressional Research Service:

      http://www.globalsecurity.org/military/library/report/crs/rl32458.pdf

      [cregan, if past is prologue, and the five 9/11 suspects all decide to plead guilty in federal court without a trial, that particular feared precedent you anticipate will likely not be realized.]

    • Mary says:

      Well, I was going to give you my off the cuff answer, but it looks like powwow has been following most of this issue much more closely than I have vis a vis the testimony and writings and authority being used and cited.

      I’m still going to give you my stab at it, though, fwiw (but it will not include the kind of law of war training and research that Frakt or a Pearlstein or a Hafetz (I am so excited about the book salon) brings to the table.

      You have three basic kinds of proceedings; civilian proceedings for criminal actions; court martial proceedings for violations of laws of war; and commissions – a procedural mechanism used in a lawless setting, not to apply any civilian or military law allow underlings of an authority claiming martial law power to enact that power.

      So imo the first and most basic issue is that the commissions are not being held in the midst of a battlefield or in the streets of a city in chaos where martial law has been imposed. So whether you look at it as a military or civilian proceeding, I don’t think you have an argument to deviate from civilian criminal law or a court martial proceeding and instead opt into “commissions” that are going to not allow the protections re: evidence and ability to confront and coerced testimony, etc that are available in the other two types of proceedings.

      Next is the issue of the fact that the victims of the hostile act were military victims and what that does, or does not, do vis a vis how you charge. I think there is where you have to really look at why “laws of war” exist, conceptually. They exist at least in part, imo, because of the determination by nations that nations should grant the members of a military privileges that do not exist at common law – including the privilege to kill by acts of aggression.

      I’d gues for those who delve into it, there’s a boatload of history and evolution of concepts there, but in general nations felt the need for armies, and amongst nations there began to be an acceptance of how soldiers in wars and thereafter should be treated. But the end result is a series of privileges that combatants operating on behalf of a nation state have when they engage in hostile acts that can and do result in death. Sometimes a combatants privileges extend to non-uniformed civilians, as where civilians in a nation take up arms in defense against an invasion, but almost all privileges stem for nation-state association and the laws of war are crafted around nation-state interests and interactions.

      It is true that when you have a nation state interest involved in a conflict, there are some carve outs from the privileges that exist if you have a soldier or national partisan who uses deception to pretend that they are not a soldier, basically the “spies” situation. But to have that kick in, you need the kind of conflict that invokes nation state and soldiers interests to start with imo.

      So – it is the character of the actors, not the victims, imo that denominates whether the crime should invoke the laws of war (which often grant privileges for misbehaviour far beyond what civilian law would) or the civil criminal code. You are operating, imo, in one of: a) a lawless commission setting; b) a laws of war that grants privileges that in many instances excuse all kinds of acts that would otherwise be crimes, including killing setting (courts martial typically); or c) civilian law criminal violations setting.

      To say “the victims were military so we use the laws of war” ignores why there are laws of war imo – those laws depend for their jurisdiction on the nature of the actors rather than the victims. If a group of uniformed girl scouts all lined a road and threw boxes of girl scout cookies at an army convoy – they are not committing a war crime, they are committing a civilian crime bc they are, despite their “uniforms” and identifiability based on those uniforms, not actors on behalf of a nation state interest and not eligible to claim privileged status (or lose it as soldiers otherwise entitled to privilege who engage in acts of sabotage and perfidy and disguise etc. so as to lose privilege).

      If Greenpeace sprays paint on a military vessel – that’s not a war crime. If instead of Hasan, a mentally disturbed beer delivery driver had opened fire on a military base, that’s not a war crime. It’s a crime crime.

      To devolve into being a war crime, IMO you basically need to be in a situation where you are a privileged combatant under the laws of war who then either loses privilege due to things like perfidy, or who exceeds even what privilege grants and protects. When you have people and an entity who, bc they have no nation state affiliation can NEVER claim privilege (drug cartels would be an example), the laws of war don’t extend to them imo and that means the more severe and more extensive and more embracing civilian criminal laws do imo.

      This concept that civilian law is a weak sister to military law is wrong. Military and civilian law are the weak sister to the imperialistic martial law (lawlessness) that support commissions, but military law itself allows for all kinds of actions and activities that criminal codes prohibit. Tack on the fact that, with al-Nashiri, you have someone not even taken into custody at the scene – so no battlefield affiliation – and you don’t have much imo. I hadn’t, until I read powwow’s excerpt above (sounds like Frakt’s testimony is pretty much a must-read on this topic) thought of perfidy, but even on that front I’m not sure I see how it applies. I may have the very few facts I know of with al-Nashiri wrong, but it seems that he was not “on the scene” to be able to invoke any claims to direct involvement in the deception/ruse, so you are looking at the kinds of conspiracy that are not chargeable unless you start invoking chain of command liability.

      all fwiw – I think more can probably be gained from reading through powwow’s links and I’m going to try that myself.

  6. cregan says:

    Let me state it a better way.

    KSM goes to NYC, gets convicted and then the CIA guys say, “Hey, he got convicted. The torture didn’t interfere with anything. What’s the big deal?”

    “Just because we torture a guy doesn’t mean you can’t convict him. Don’t worry.”

    • dakine01 says:

      Well, it probably helps to have evidence available that was gathered outside of the torture. After all, we are supposed to have the information to know that this guy was supposedly a higher up member of al-Qaeda, so there pretty much must have been evidence gathered to support that contention.

  7. Sara says:

    Well, I clearly understand that a state of war exists when Congress declares it and all…

    But what is the legal status of bin Laden’s declaration of war on the US in 1998, a month or so before the African Embassy Bombings. Of course the proper authorities never recognized that declaration, and bin Laden has not recognized authority to act in the name of an existing state (I think the declaration was in the name of the Muslim Ummna or Community of the World) but is there any precident for dealing with a one sided declaration if eventually the US confronts the matter of war crimes directed at itself by a non-recognized state actor?

    In thinking about this, I am remembering some obscure bits and pieces about Am. Indian Law, cases where the US had made treaties with specific tribes, and then later been attacked by those tribes. Memory is very imperfect on all this — I do remember a claim made that on being attacked, the US Army was ordered to extinguish the tribe and treaty. In a way, 19th Century Indian Tribes were non-state actors. Rough memory has it that it was Minnesota River Sioux during the 1863 uprising, and Lincoln was President.

    On Edit, I should add that the Sioux were tried by Military Commissions, over a hundred were found guilty and condemned to death, Lincoln changed the sentences of all but 39, and they were executed in Mankado all at once on a 39 man gallows. The Governor’s office has a full wall mural of the proceedings.

    • Mary says:

      but is there any precident for dealing with a one sided declaration

      I think the entity making the declaration has to have the right status as a nation state for it to matter. Otherwise, they are criminals – not soldiers, not warriors, criminals. I think lots of drug cartels have declared war on the miltiary from time to time – then there was Sheik Al-Capone, etc.

      The impact of the declaration is that nation states would recognize privileges for your soldiers’ killings (among other things, but that’s a biggie) where they are privileged. If, even with your declaration, your combatants will never be deemed privileged (i.e., Bin Laden declaration or not, if al-Qaeda had attacked the Cole while wearing “I am al-Qaeda” t-shirts and flying an al-Qaeda flag on the dinghy – there’s still no way the US would have recognized that as a privileged attack if they could capture anyone involved in it. fwiw, imo.

      BTW – the Pearlstein info excerpted by powwow tracks in part the arguments made by petitioners in Milligan – going through the things he was charged with and why they could be tried in civilian court and were not crimes unique to a laws of war and did not require military proceedings.

      • bmaz says:

        Looking at Milligan only is a false street to travel though; you also have to consider the work arounds and distinctions made in Quirin, Hamdi and Hamdan (there is one in the 60s whose name I am forgetting too). The categories and delineations you make are not nearly so clear if you take all of the cases into account.

        • Mary says:

          Yes and no. Quirin is very sui generis imo. However, it did involve actual members of the uniformed German military with which the US was at war, who had discarded uniforms and were acting as saboteurs/spies, so I don’t think it is a misfit. That is a setting where privilege is lost under the laws of war and since you had actual members of the military of a nation state with which we were at war the laws of war had application. How much appliation they should have had to Quirin who may have been entitled to US citizenship although he didn’t pursue that claim actively – when he also had German citizenship and was an active member of Germany’s military – is the outlier issue on one where Scalia would be willing to overrule Quirin (only with respect to a US citizen, though) and say that civilian laws, rather than the laws of war with loss of privilege, should have applied.

          Hamdi is a very difficult case to use to stand for anything bc O’Connor wasn’t trying to follow any law as much as buy everyone breathing time, apparently thinking they’d get their act together. In general, though, the Hamdi issue was what do you do with someone who was a battlefield detetnion (he was) who later turns out to be a US citizen and who is transported back to the US. The answer was basically a big shrug with the sugary – “war is not a blank check” talking point. Scalia and a couple of others were very adamant that Hamdi had to be given habeas rights asap bc he was an American citizen, in America now, and someone had to prove a grounds for holding him. The plurality was that a battlefield detention and coupled with the AUMF gave a right to detain “for awhile” but definitely not forever without habeas. It didn’t really do much in general or with respect to Milligan imo, other than being the case where Scalia said he’s willing to overrule.

          Argh – got to run to Fed Ex, but I don’t think Hamdan blurs the line that much either fwiw. Laterdays.

          • bmaz says:

            Maybe; but what the whole series shows is a willingness to move the goalpost to fit the facts as they have them. And I think that if there was any reasonable MC proposal on the table, they would do so again and accept it. Hope I am wrong about that, but such is my read so far.

    • powwow says:

      Sara, here’s Louis Fisher’s discussion of those Dakota Sioux military tribunals you pulled from your memory (excerpted from the CRS report I linked above that details the sordid history of American military tribunals):

      In 1862, hostilities broke out between American settlers in Minnesota and the Dakota (or Sioux) community. Five weeks of fighting resulted in the deaths of 77 American soldiers, 29 citizen-soldiers, approximately 358 settlers, and an estimated 29 Dakota.131 Col. Henry H. Sibley created a five-member military tribunal to investigate the incidents and pass judgment, even though all members of the tribunal had fought against the Dakota.132 The tribunal convicted 323 and recommended the hanging of 303.

      President Lincoln, learning of the trials on October 14, directed that no executions be made without his approval. Federal law, in fact, made that a requirement. For all courts-martial and military tribunals, “no sentence of death, or imprisonment in the penitentiary, shall be carried into execution until the same shall have been approved by the President.”133 Maj. Gen. John Pope, Sibley’s commanding officer, telegraphed Lincoln on November 11, warning that if the condemned were not executed, there would be “an indiscriminate massacre” of 1,500 women, children, and elderly Indians still held prisoner.134

      Lincoln adopted this general policy: “Anxious to not act with so much clemency as to encourage another outbreak, on the one hand, nor with so much severity as to be real cruelty, on the other, I caused a careful examination of the records of trials to be made, in view of first ordering the execution of such as had been proved guilty of violating females.”135 Only two examples of that category surfaced. He then directed that the examination look for those “who were proven to have participated in massacres, as distinguished from participation in battles.”136 That class, included the two convicted of female violation, numbered 40. For one of the violators, the tribunal recommended a jail sentence of ten years.137 This leniency resulted when the individual turned state’ evidence against other defendants. He served three years in prison before being released.138

      Out of the 303 slated for execution, Lincoln ordered the death sentence for 39 and commuted or pardoned the rest.139 Because subsequent evidence cast doubt on the guilt of one of the accused, 38 were executed.140 Congress later passed legislation to provide funds for the relief of persons damaged by the Sioux Indians and also for the Indians who gave assistance to white men, women, and children.141

      The tribunals for the Dakota trials have been the subject of several critiques, partly because of the accelerated nature of the proceedings (some lasting five minutes) and the prejudice of tribunal members. Counsel was not provided to the defendants, even for those who had little command of English.142 There is also a question whether Col. Sibley possessed authority to convene the tribunal. Article of War 65 provided that in cases of capital crimes, the officer who convened a courtmartial could not also be the accuser. General Pope and Judge Advocate General Holt concluded that Sibley was an accuser, “and Sibley did not disagree.”143 Sibley’s defense was that Article 65 applied only to the court-martial of an inferior soldier, not to a military tribunal of outsiders. Yet the army had determined, by January 1, 1862, that military tribunals should be conducted with the same procedures as courts martial.144 Whether for soldiers or for outsiders, the purpose of Article 65 was to prevent actual or perceived bias.

      As to the question about the existence of a state of war, or armed conflict, pre-2001 AUMF, the way I think we need to look at that, is to ask what advantages prosecuting a war crime gives us over prosecuting under domestic criminal law, if any? Or, to put it another way, what’s the point of the “law of armed conflict,” as it relates to its itemization of “war crimes”? It’s called “International Humanitarian Law” for a reason: Because it’s an atttempt to limit the destruction of, by definition, really, lawless war.

      Thus, for starters, of course, “war crimes” include crimes that are exclusively incidental to armed conflict [using civilians as shields, say], for which a crime under domestic law has not been defined. [See, starting on PDF Page 418 of 655 here, the 2009 Military Commissions Act’s list of purported war crimes that may be charged against alien non-citizens.]

      But what is the advantage – in terms of justice and accountability – of prosecuting a crime that can be considered both a “war crime” and a domestic crime (like say “attacking civilians”) in our UCMJ-governed military justice system in a law-of-war court-martial, as opposed to in federal criminal court? As Cynthia K. recently explained here, the defendants would have more rights in the court-martial than as criminal defendants in federal court. That’s the “apples to apples” comparison, rather than the “apples to oranges” comparison of choosing between the ad hoc, rights-limiting military commissions and federal criminal court.

      Does that make sense? In other words, is there any reason rendering justice is disadvantaged – aside from the commission of crimes only chargeable under the law of war – by choosing our federal criminal courts instead of our UCMJ-governed military justice system, for non-citizens? If not, then do we really need to decide whether a state of war existed on 9/11/2001 (or in 1998), rather than simply using our existing federal courts for all those offenses covered, at least equally with the law of war, by domestic law?

      [bmaz, just as I’d love to see Mary tackle this subject in a Seminal diary, using her clear and compelling descriptions from yesterday’s long comment about Milligan, it’d be wonderful to see you spell out the subject in a post, focusing on the distinctions, and reason for the distinctions, between UCMJ courts-martial and UCMJ courts-martial-avoiding military commissions – a subject which is in desperate need of wider attention and clearer explanation.]

      • bmaz says:

        Heh, I don’t think I am qualified to write that post; wish I were.

        As to Cindy Kouril’s post, I am not convinced that, overall, there really are more rights in a court martial than in a civilian case. Her point was as to the ability to depose witnesses and the ability to challenge the sufficiency of the charges at an Article 15 hearing, which would be the equivalent of a preliminary hearing or the ability to present evidence at a grand jury, both of which are generally not available in Federal criminal cases (although is rare circumstances both are available). Those are pre-trial rights; as far as overall trial rights, my guess is that things are still a little more restricted, though maybe not much, in a military court martial setting. The key is that the MCs will not be anything at all like a court martial and will be much more restrictive.

        As to the rest of your gist, I agree with one caveat. Namely that the bottom line question is that what we consider the advantage is not germane; if there are multiple legal options, emphasis on “legal”, then it is properly within the province of prosecutorial discretion to decide which is chosen. I have a distinct feeling that if the Administration ever quit trying to jerk chains and hide balls, and actually set up an even marginally reasonable commission program, it would pass SCOTUS muster. Reading between the lines, they have made that quite clear, which is why I keep cautioning that there is more than just Milligan at play here.

      • bobschacht says:

        Thanks, Powwow, for this valuable addition to “the record” here at the wheelhouse. I think that my comment @38 still raises other issues worthy of additional exploration, and I would welcome your response to those issues, as IANAL.

        Bob in AZ

        • powwow says:

          I agree, Bob, that you raise issues worthy of additional exploration with regard to independently-commanded ‘irregulars’ – issues that are very much at issue today under the law of armed conflict, as America’s mistreatment of its (allegedly) opposing-force prisoners has only served to highlight.

          In that regard, Mary’s comment at 24 touches on a fundamental fact of “armed conflict” that America’s political elite seem unwilling to acknowledge or accept, at least for our present conflicts with the inhabitants of majority-Muslim nations: In contrast to the pursuit of alleged mass-murderer criminals, when a nation declares itself – or simply chooses to be – a participant in an armed conflict, its opponent(s) have the ‘legal’ right to fight back, so long as they comply with the law of armed conflict. That means, with regard to how we responded to 9/11, that instead of a police and detective/intelligence force tracking down criminal culprits, Congress volunteered to put the troops of our Armed Forces at risk instead, in an armed conflict in which they could be ‘legally’ murdered by their opponent(s). At, obviously, a greatly-increased monetary cost to the taxpayers, to boot.

          Congressional and presidential refusal to recognize the legitimacy of our armed conflict opponents, in turn, helps expose the dirty little secret of the law of armed conflict and other international law: it goes effectively unenforced except by the ‘enlightened self-interest’ of semi-equal foes – which means, in the real world, that the strong may dominate the weak without repercussion, as America has done with impunity in Iraq and Afghanistan since 2001. Never mind the United Nations, never mind the Hague, never mind the power of the organized church, never mind the nations of Europe that should have learned a lesson or two from watching, within living memory, a heavily-armed aggressor nation throw its weight around the neighborhood unchallenged.

          Thus, for example, so long as we don’t have troops in the possession of the enemy whose safety and treatment we need to worry about, we have no incentive, other than common decency, to treat as formal Prisoners of War, with attendant POW privileges, foreign “combatants” we capture. And so, in the absence of even common decency from Bush and Cheney or a silent Congress, we didn’t. And still don’t. Years later a little bit of finger-wagging from some courts is about all the formal penalty that such venal and officially-unsanctioned behavior has elicited from the rest of the world.

          Which just helps demonstrate that it was, after all, the powerful nations of the world that could and would veto international treaties that served to put them at any sort of serious disadvantage – or, in our case lately, that would simply decide to openly disregard humanitarian treaties we had pledged to observe, because we could, without meaningful challenge. Here’s a comment I wrote at Glenn’s that briefly summarizes the main tenets of armed conflict combatant immunity – with footnoted links for more detailed information – that, I think, helps demonstrate that power imbalance.

          Lastly, recognizing your Hawaiian ties, I thought you (and others) might be interested in this further (lengthy) excerpt from Louis Fisher’s CRS report, that gives a chilling description of how martial law, and its accompanying military tribunals, quickly descended upon Hawaii following Pearl Harbor:

          After the December 7, 1941 attack on Pearl Harbor by Japan, Governor Joseph B. Poindexter issued a proclamation transferring all governmental functions (including judicial) to the Commanding General of the Hawaiian Department. He called upon the Commanding General to prevent an invasion and to suspend the privilege of the writ of habeas corpus.315 On that same day, the Commanding General assumed the role of “Military Governor” and created two forms of military tribunal to try any case involving an offense against federal law, Hawaiian law, “or the rules, regulations, orders or policies of the military authorities.” These military courts included provost courts, which were authorized to impose fines up to $5,000 and imprisonment for up to five years, and a military tribunal empowered to decide more severe sentences, including the death penalty.316 The Commanding General cabled President Roosevelt about the declaration of martial law and the suspension of the writ of habeas corpus and received Roosevelt’s approval.317

          Several challenges to martial law and the suspension of habeas corpus reached the federal courts. One involved a petition for a writ filed on February 19, 1942, by Clara Zimmerman, who claimed that her husband, Hans, had been unlawfully detained and imprisoned by military authorities. Both were U.S. citizens. District Judge Delbert E. Metzger denied the writ on the ground that military orders had forbade its issuance: “I feel that the court is under duress by reason of the order and not free to carry on the functions of the court in a manner in which the court conceives to be its duty.”318

          On December 14, 1942, the Ninth Circuit affirmed the denial of the petition, holding that the Governor of Hawaii was authorized to suspend until further notice the privilege of the writ of habeas corpus. The court relied on Section 67 of the Hawaiian Organic Act.319 Although no charges had been filed against Zimmerman, the military kept him in prison. The Ninth Circuit said that civil courts, “in circumstances like the present, ought to be careful to avoid idle or captious interference.”320 Civil courts “are ill adapted to cope with an emergency of this kind. As a rule they proceed only upon formal charges.” Under this reasoning, so long as the government pressed no charges, it could hold Zimmerman indefinitely, or at least to the end of martial law.

          In a dissent to the Ninth Circuit ruling, Judge Bert Emory Haney said that military government “is not expressly recognized in the Constitution and is wholly and entirely contrary to the form of government provided for therein.”321 Government by a commanding officer, he noted, “is of course not government by executive, legislative and judicial branches, the kind of government provided for in the Constitution.”322 To the extent that a military government could exist by reason of “necessity,” the question of whether a particular military action was necessary represented a “question of fact” that courts were competent to judge, “depending on the existence of facts in the territory.”323 Later, the Supreme Court denied review on the ground that the case was moot, “it appearing that Hans Zimmerman . . . has been released from the respondent’s custody.”324

          In August 1942, Ingram M. Stainback replaced Poindexter as Governor. The United States had carried off the very successful Battle of Midway in June 1942, inflicting such heavy damage on the Japanese fleet that it was commonly understood that the danger of a land invasion of Hawaii no longer existed. Stainback was intent on shifting political power from martial law to civilian authority.325 Shortly after his inauguration, military authorities issued a general order on August 31, returning to the Hawaiian courts “criminal prosecutions and civil litigation to the extent that war conditions permit.” The privilege of habeas corpus remained suspended, however, and martial law still prevailed. The general order specified the type of criminal proceeding and civil suit that would remain within the jurisdiction of the military.326 A compromise worked out between the Interior and Justice Departments shifted a number of functions to the civil government.327

          Proclamations on February 8, 1943, signed by both the Governor and the Commanding General, restored much of civil authority to Hawaii. With regard to violations of territorial law and federal law, trial by jury and indictment by grand jury in the civil courts replaced the provost courts and military tribunals. Nevertheless, Stainback’s proclamation included language that “a state of martial law remains in effect and the privilege of the writ of habeas corpus remains suspended.”328 Judicial proceedings were restored, both criminal and civil, except (1) criminal prosecutions against members of the armed forces, (2) civil suits against members of the armed forces, and (3) criminal prosecutions for violations of military orders. The Commanding General could waive the last exception for a particular prosecution or suit.329

          […]

          On February 12, 1945, the Supreme Court granted cert to hear the Duncan and White cases.349 It did not issue a decision until a year later, after the war was over. Thus, the wartime legal scrutiny of martial law in Hawaii functioned entirely at the level of district courts and the Ninth Circuit.

          In 1946, the Supreme Court held that Section 67 of the Organic Act authorized the Governor of Hawaii, with the approval of the President, to “invoke military aid under certain circumstances,” but Congress “did not specifically state to what extent the army could be used or what power it could exercise. It certainly did not explicitly declare that the Governor in conjunction with the military could for days, months or years close all the courts and supplant them with military tribunals.”350 The term
          martial law in Section 67 “carries no precise meaning.”351 The Court rejected the argument of the Justice Department that the legislative history of Section 67 revealed congressional intent “to give the armed forces extraordinarily broad powers to try civilians before military tribunals.”352 Military trials of civilians charged with crimes, “especially when not made subject to judicial review, are so obviously contrary to our political traditions and our institution of jury trials in courts of law, that the tenuous circumstances offered by the Government can hardly suffice to persuade us that Congress was willing to enact a Hawaiian supreme court decision [from 1895] permitting such a radical departure from our steadfast beliefs.”353

          In reviewing the development of government institutions in America, the Court pressed home the fundamental principle that courts “and their procedural safeguards are indispensable to our system of government,” and that the framers “were opposed to governments that placed in the hands of one man the power to make, interpret and enforce the laws.”354

    • bobschacht says:

      In thinking about this, I am remembering some obscure bits and pieces about Am. Indian Law, cases where the US had made treaties with specific tribes, and then later been attacked by those tribes. Memory is very imperfect on all this — I do remember a claim made that on being attacked, the US Army was ordered to extinguish the tribe and treaty. In a way, 19th Century Indian Tribes were non-state actors. Rough memory has it that it was Minnesota River Sioux during the 1863 uprising, and Lincoln was President.

      On Edit, I should add that the Sioux were tried by Military Commissions, over a hundred were found guilty and condemned to death, Lincoln changed the sentences of all but 39, and they were executed in Mankado all at once on a 39 man gallows. The Governor’s office has a full wall mural of the proceedings.

      Very interesting point that deserves further research. I would quibble with your summary, however, to the extent that you imply that it was only the Indians who broke the treaty. Also, this discussion needs a bit more cultural understanding, in that the U.S. Gov’t was wont to make treaties with Indian leaders whom it held responsible for the behavior of all segments of the tribe, whether or not those Indian leaders had any authority over those bands. Hence, if the treaty was “broken,” it might have been by bands who did not recognize the authority of the Indian leaders with whom the treaty may have been signed (and probably signed under duress).

      These details do not make the situation less relevant, but possibly more relevant. Our government likes to operate under the model that every single detainee was under the direct command of Osama Bin Laden, and thus all of them constitute a kind of Al Qaeda “state” with whom we are at war. The truth however, is more likely to be that of the detainees who are actually guilty of some hostile act, some may have been acting quite independently of the Al Qaeda command structure, or at least independently of Osama Bin Laden’s command structure. We know that guerrilla tactics in warfare are often conducted independently. This is not a new thing, historically.

      Anyway, I think there is much more meat to explore here, and maybe it will come out in the trials.

      I hope that this thread is not totally dead, and that someone will alert Sara to this response.

      Bob in AZ

  8. bmaz says:

    Here it turns on whether the AUMF suffices to place the country “at war”. I do not know if there is a definitive answer on that for these purposes, but it has been accepted in some other, lesser, circumstances.

    • bobschacht says:

      I have been wondering about this. I’ll bet if there were a way to test this proposition in the courts, it would be knocked down. I wish someone would.

      Bob in AZ

  9. orionATL says:

    this post and the ensuing discussion makes for fascinating and exceptionally informative reading.

    my thanks to ew and multiple contributors.

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