Top Journalist’s Husband Argues People Are Too Stupid for Debate

Hopefully, you’ve already seem Ryan Grim’s explosive report on how, in 2004, Alan Greenspan argued the Fed should keep worries about a growing housing bubble secret because the chumps buying the houses were too stupid to engage in a debate about whether there was a bubble or not.

As top Federal Reserve officials debated whether there was a housing bubble and what to do about it, then-Chairman Alan Greenspan argued that the dissent should be kept secret so that the Fed wouldn’t lose control of the debate to people less well-informed than themselves.

“We run the risk, by laying out the pros and cons of a particular argument, of inducing people to join in on the debate, and in this regard it is possible to lose control of a process that only we fully understand,” Greenspan said, according to the transcripts of a March 2004 meeting.

As you read the entire story, note carefully Grim’s description of what appears in the transcript, but not the minutes.

Aside from outrage about Greenspan’s arrogant view and the missed opportunity to pop the bubble before it decimated our economy and millions of lives, I’m particularly interested in whether or not Greenspan ever shared this with his wife, Andrea Mitchell (who has been defending Wall Street pretty aggressively even as the rest of the press begins to sour on the Banksters). That is, did Alan Greenspan share the news that Atlanta Fed then-President Jack Guynn worried about overbuilding and speculation with Mitchell? In which case, Mitchell would be complicit in hiding this information from NBC’s viewers.

Or did he keep this secret from even his wife, on the grounds that he considers her too stupid to understand it all, and telling her would induce her and her viewers to join in the debate about the housing bubble?

Greenspan’s position is unforgivable coming from anyone playing with our economy and people’s lives, as he was. But it’s all the more curious coming from a guy married to one of the smarter DC reporters who presumably has a firm belief in the importance of the news and an ability to present a balanced report on concerns about speculation in the housing market.

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108 replies
  1. earlofhuntingdon says:

    Making money on Wall Street: very important. Fulfilling one’s obligations as Fed Chairman to protect the US Treasury, the taxpayer and the home buying public: not important at all. But let’s keep that a secret.

  2. PJEvans says:

    Even given his adoration of Ayn Rand, and his apparent belief that he’s one of the smartest guys in the room, he could have told her about it. I’m also pretty sure she’s smart enough to either figure it out herself or pry it out of him.

    In any case, no more of these Chicago School economic idjits!

    • Bluetoe2 says:

      The University of Chicago is nothing more than a hot bed of fascism and plutocracy.

      • Hugh says:

        Plutocracy doesn’t cover the malevolence and evil behind what we are seeing, the mad addicted desire to game markets until they crash, steal money through their shills in government, and start all over again. The result is always the same. The rich become richer, and the rest of us poorer.

        • Bluetoe2 says:

          Of course plutocracy is to tame a word to describe what the U.S. has morphed into. In point of fact it’s a nation that is now ruled by an elite of sociopaths enabled by media spokesmodels that want nothing more than wealth and celebrityhood. Either the people rise up and destroy these sick and twisted criminals or they will continue to feed on and ultimately destroy American families, one family at a time.

          • spanishinquisition says:

            “In point of fact it’s a nation that is now ruled by an elite of sociopaths enabled by media spokesmodels that want nothing more than wealth and celebrityhood.”

            Yeah, look at Obama not letting a huge natural disaster get in the way of his celebrity cocktail party.

            • Bluetoe2 says:

              Right. Obama is the first “kool kat” President. His ego leads him to believe he can walk on the Gulf coast waters and turn the oil into Dr. Pepper. He’s a kool kat alright, and the working and middle classes are burning.

            • onitgoes says:

              Ain’t that the truth? And yet some here at FDL get really mad at commenters for “bashing” BHO. I say: what IS the difference between BHO and W? What? When NOLA drowned, wasn’t W off singing Happy Birthday to McCain and saying: “let them eat cake.” Tell, HOW is that any different to BHO “joking” around with Jay Leno??? I was totally pissed off. What an empty suit.

              • readerOfTeaLeaves says:

                I say: what IS the difference between BHO and W?

                Bush would never have obtained scholarships to good education; BO did.
                Bush was a petulant, ignorant, ideological jerk.

                BO may not be perfect, but no one is perfect.
                I don’t expect perfection.
                Someone with brains, who seeks to understand situations and complexity, then arrive at a reasonable decision, is a damn sight better than what we have had for most of the past 30 years.

                I don’t expect perfection.
                Rahm troubles me.

                But I don’t blame BO for all our ills, and at least the man makes an effort.

                • BigJess says:

                  But I don’t blame BO for all our ills, and at least the man makes an effort.

                  Oh, yeah, O makes an effort all right; an effort to fool us with words while he fucks us with actions. And no condom, no spermicide, no KY, just a good old fashioned rat-fucking.

                  Someday O apologists will wake up to the fact that this guy is the most evil President ever. He’s Hannah Arendt’s “the banality of evil” all dressed up in fancy rhetoric and nice threads.

        • readerOfTeaLeaves says:

          Plutocracy doesn’t cover the malevolence and evil behind what we are seeing, the mad addicted desire to game markets until they crash, steal money through their shills in government, and start all over again.

          I completely agree.

          The public infrastructure, which IMVHO was the foundation of post-WWII prosperity (parks, education, research, roadways, safe drinking water…) was ignored, or treated as one more ‘commodity’ to be privatized.

          The greed was evil.
          There’s really no other word for it, in the sense that it is life-diminishing, life-destroying, and damages the quality of life for everyone.

          Blind stupidity and malicious greed.

  3. BoxTurtle says:

    You’re just grumpy because you think he’s refering to you. :-)

    Boxturtle (He probably means Eric over at redstate)

    • BoxTurtle says:

      Thought problem:

      If she didn’t know, she’ll answer “no”.

      If she DID know, she’ll still answer “no” to cover her butt.

      If you put her under oath, she’ll say “I can’t recall”

      Boxturtle (So why ask? :-) )

      • klynn says:

        Goodness, don’t you know there is a bit of fun in the asking?

        Just to put her on notice.

        klynn – the the BoxTurtle style: (Camera zooms in on Andrea’s eyes as she is asked the question.)

        • BoxTurtle says:

          Then ask her:

          “What would you think of a reporter who sat on a story like that?”

          “Do you think that what Alan did was ethical? Why?”

          “Do you consider it appropriate for the government to keep such as this secret?”

          Boxturtle (Cat toy!!!! SWAT!!!!)

        • kindGSL says:

          Political catnip. Weren’t you paying attention? Chuck Todd said that is not allowed.

  4. Arbusto says:

    EW, damning by faint praise

    …one of the smarter DC reporters[…]

    Sometimes, Andrea is insightful, often a stenographer and generally mediocre when not over-imbibing. She and Alan; strange bedfellows. Meow.

    As to Greenspan, I suspect he did nothing more, nor less than his masters desired.

  5. fatster says:

    Greenspan set us up in 2004 for that devastating crisis. Now Pelosi’s saying that BushCo refused to let Congress know about the financial melt-down in 2008 until it was only hours away. LINK.

  6. posaune says:

    Honestly, I think the housing bubble was planned from the get-go.
    Think back on the chronology:
    – Jan 2001 – Bush takes office
    – Mar 2001 – dot com crash, market tanking
    – Sep 2001 – 911.

    They had to try to pay for a tiny portion of Bush’s war SOMEHOW!
    Voila! The Housing Bubble. Make everyone happy. It was engineered.

    I work in land use regulation, and we could see it coming.

    The traditional development timeline put on its head. Local builders and developers, in business for generations, suddenly in the business of securing local approvals from Planning Boards, Commissions, County Councils, etc., and then FLIPPING the properties and their approvals to National Builders like Centex (ha! no question there!), Pulte, NV, Hovanian, Ryan, Craftmark, etc. etc. All National Builders trading on the national exchanges. And it just got bigger and bigger.

    In the old days, a builder would develop a land use plan, hire real engineers & architects, and consult with the jurisdiction. No More. Now the first person hired is the accountant to determine “the unit yield” necessary to get a certain profit, hence stock price. The architect and engineer became the last hired! Hence, the ubiquitous town house developments seen with 1000 foot retaining walls, shoe-horned units facing back to back, and on and on. And the real kicker?

    It was all developed not as fee-simple lots! No Sir! No Maam! It was always part of an HOA with private roads and services, trash and snow plowing, that the residents themselves fund. Everyone’s happy! See? The municipalities are thrilled, not having to pay for services. The developers walk away with their money. ONly the folks (suckers) who bought are saddled with the maintenance of the 1000 foot retaining walls when they buckle from excessive storm water run off. And there is absolutely NO legal way to get out of an HOA! All buttoned up, those nooses!

    Oh, almost forgot this one: The home builders got into the finance business too, writing mortgages (to flip & tranch later). And if the buyer used the Pulte financing, he/she could get the wood floor upgrade.

    It was planned from the beginning! And Greenspan was right at the table from the get-go.

    • BigJess says:

      Thanks for the explanation. Filled in some gaps in what I already knew, or suspected.

      • readerOfTeaLeaves says:

        Oh, almost forgot this one: The home builders got into the finance business too, writing mortgages (to flip & tranch later). And if the buyer used the Pulte financing, he/she could get the wood floor upgrade.

        Absolutely.

        And with ‘dark markets’, just how many of those underwater development ‘corporations’ and LLC’s were buying protection on projects that they knew for a fact would never pay out?

        Propose a project, get it in the pipeline.
        Then start taking out ‘protection’ in the form of CDOs and you can become a billionaire.

        No conscience required.

    • kindGSL says:

      I know it was planned because when I called them on it in Sept, it happened. It was done deliberately as our next 9/11.

      It worked perfectly too. Look at our response, throw them all our credit AND money. What else have we got left? Our youngest daughters?

      When you look at the big picture, their plan is actually to reinstate slavery. I am not kidding, that is a fact.

      • Hugh says:

        Marcy calls it the new feudalism. It is not impending. It has already arrived. In 2007, the richest 1% had 13 1/2 times the wealth of the bottom 50% of the population. That tells you all you need to know. We live in a kleptocracry. It is to laugh that the richest earned their way into that wealth discrepancy. They did it the old fashioned way. They stole it.

        • onitgoes says:

          Absolutely. What I find fearsome is how tame everyone is. The poor are too downtrodden, often lacking education and language skills, so that’s that.

          But the middle and sort of upper middle classes are usually educated enough and have decent enough language skills, but as the cliche goes, they have eyes but do not see, and ears but do not hear.

          It’s not just Republicans/righties (albeit they all tend to watch and listen to rightwing media, so they tend to be pretty brainwashed), it’s the Democratic/leftie voters as well.

          When I start to point this stuff out to my leftie friends, most of them these days appear to think I’m as nutty as my Republican friends see me. Well, I really can hardly say anything to my Republic friends due their inability to really hear *anything* that a leftie says, no matter if it’s in their own interest.

          The outright venality of the greed, the transparency of it all… I just don’t *get* how more don’t see it, but if you dare to mention taxes to any Republic they just fly off the handle and that’s the end of the conversation.

          The housing bubble was eminently predictable to anyone who had their feet on the ground, was thoughtful and questioning, and didn’t just drink kool aid all day long. I witnessed lots of people get caught up in a cycle of unabashed greed and out of control spending that was pretty ugly to watch.

          There was a brief commentary on NPR last week (forget day and not sure how to find it now), whereby the commenter stated flat out the idea that owning a house was part of the “American dream” was something that pretty much was floated out there during the Bush Admin. Some of the commenters “take” on that here about how it was a way to pay for the unnecessary wars (eg, pay off Bush and Cheney, the crooks) always seemed that way to me. Ginned up, citizens madly encouraged to spend what they didn’t have… ummmmhmmmmmmm… and now the piper comes and wants payment, and who pays and pays and pays??? Ain’t gonna Mr. Ayn Rand, is it?

          • Bluetoe2 says:

            This is not a system that is capable of reforming itself. Not unlike the former Soviet Union it has become rigid in it’s intellectual underpinnings and corrupt in it’s daily exercise of power. The same can be said of any Empire. Empires are never reformed. They either implode under the weight of their own corruption and internal contradictions or they just whither away or they are liberated by an outside force. My bet is on implosion.

      • spanishinquisition says:

        “When you look at the big picture, their plan is actually to reinstate slavery. I am not kidding, that is a fact.”

        Yeah, corporate feudalism is a fact – look at the mandate to buy private insurance.

    • readerOfTeaLeaves says:

      The home builders got into the finance business too, writing mortgages (to flip & tranch later). And if the buyer used the Pulte financing, he/she could get the wood floor upgrade.

      It was planned from the beginning! And Greenspan was right at the table from the get-go.

      posaune, I’ve read your comments for several years but have never, ever seen you reference your background.

      Centex. Oh, jeebuz.
      A developer lobbyist schooled me on parts of the homebuilder’s political network starting in cities and counties, all the way to DC and the Homebuilder’s DC lobbying arms.

      As near as I could figure it out, K-k-k-karl Rove had some kind of integrated operation that involved megachurches, mortgage banks, realtor estate lobbyists, Chamber of Commerce, homebuilder lobbying groups, with the GOP organizing and driving their activities. These guys thought they owned the friggin’ world, and they came mighty close.

      However, I’ve wondered about exactly the same pattern that you point out: this was a big, big, b-i-g system of fraud. And I’m increasingly convinced that a lot of it was designed, probably at least in the 1990s.

      If you look at this mess through a certain lens, it almost seems as if the Savings & Loan crisis of the 1980s was just a dry run. By the 1990s, they could perpetrate massive fraud via what William Black calls ‘control fraud’, and implement a lot of bad loans by using the Internet. (Which they probably also used to move a lot of their ‘wealth’ offshore, offbooks, may they all rot in hell.)

      I am increasingly convinced that you are right in thinking that this was a huge, big, pre-planned system.

      From a different perspective, I saw exactly the same kinds of builder and land use dynamics that you describe. And I know people in Western Oregon, and So Cal who describe precisely the very same dynamics.

      I’m also convinced the fraud is so deep that it could take a decade of investigations to ferret out.

      Recall that the Seattle FBI was asking for mortgage fraud investigators in about 2004, and never got them. You know and I know that some genuinely rapacious, Bush-wanna be, homebuilders were pushing that envelope for all they were worth and it all ratched up in 2000. (They were ramping it up in the 1990s, and in 2000, the ones that I heard were sneering about Al Gore — thought GW Bush was the greatest thing since the Dodge Ram and the Hummer.)

      Recall also that the homebuilders could write off their campaign PAC contributions as ‘business expenses‘. I can’t imagine how much money those guys were pumping to the GOP.

      (Just to show how thick and large my tinFoilHat is, I’d add that I’m convinced Abramoff was somehow using casinos to either send GOP campaign money offshore, or to use it to buy up God only knows what.)

      My comment is too long, but please consider turning your comment into a Seminal Diary.

      Awesome, awesome comment and I truly believe that it needs more readers and more visibility.

      • posaune says:

        Great comment ROTL.

        You know, I never thought about kkkarl wrt the housing bubble, but the more ponder it, the more I think you are onto something. Remember how kkkarl started out by getting his people on school boards at the local level? Would be interesting to compare the evolution of school boards with planning commissions and land use approval bodies. I’ll bet that aligns pretty neatly. Someone should investigate the NAHB, especially in the years after they built that snazzy new HQ at 12th & Mass Ave in NW DC.

        It is a complex web. And it involves elected positions and lobbyists. Sadly, there wasn’t a f—cking council/planning board member ANYWHERE who would vote to deny one of these fraudulent subdivisions in the past 10 years. Not one. They wanted the real estate taxes, “growth” and “jobs.” And re-election.

        Never mind that they created the greatest assault on sustainability in the history of the US building industry. That’s right, never exceeded in the history of building. It was damn immoral–financially, ecologically, socially. The cabal (at the front end with Greenspan & his financial architects, ending with the prostitute engineers, planners & architects at the back end), plowed up hundreds of thousands of acres of farmland, built hundreds of thousands of McMansions (frame houses with Chinese GWB, PVC pipe, vinyl siding that pops after 5 years, foundations that heave, predatory grading, illegal conveyance of storm water, and unending numbers of building violations and forest conservation violations.) Socially, they appealed to the “new urbanism” cliche ideal of the white picket fence and walkable neighborhoods (in the middle of nowhere-LOL!), that in effect, just shoved folks farther and farther to outer suburbia. And you know what? The municipalities and counties, rubbing their hands in glee at future real estate tax revenue, swallowed and paid for the road connections, water & sewer, power, all the utilities– and passed the costs onto ever rising RE taxes squeezed their current residents. Even research universities took part in the RE speculation (and still do today after the burst, yes really!). Everyone was happy until the bubble burst. Now there are thousands of 5-yo houses located an hour drive from any job! And the infrastructure bonds are nowhere near paid off either. Paying for a dead horse. Look at Loudoun County, VA.

        And no one, NO elected official anywhere, could voice any question about financial and ecological sustainability. This housing bubble is 10x worse than the 1920’s. And it is no where near over, either.
        A paid-off house will be the most valuable inheritance a kid will get from a parent in the next decades.
        Like Poland. Where people live and work where they inherit a house. Ask a realtor today: How’s that for Location Theory?

        • readerOfTeaLeaves says:

          And it involves elected positions and lobbyists. Sadly, there wasn’t a f—cking council/planning board member ANYWHERE who would vote to deny one of these fraudulent subdivisions in the past 10 years. Not one. They wanted the real estate taxes, “growth” and “jobs.” And re-election.

          Ummm. There was at least one. Yours Truly.
          And I’ll tell you what else, some of the people in the homebuilding industry really are creative, good folks but they’ve been shafted by the ‘market’, which is a sewer. And by dreams of Fast Money. And by their dumber, greedier brethren.

          For a fact, speaking as one of those ‘council/planning board’ types, I had a period of time when — without any doubt — I was followed, and when you’re driving alone late at night on windy roads, that kind of intimidation can bother you. I’d like to say that it didn’t get to me, but when you have kids to raise, and other obligations, it can eat away at the edges of your mind. In my case, I kept at the land use stuff because it pisses me off when assholes try to intimidate me. But there’s a cost; it does nag at one.

          I swear some of those builders are so stupid they make the characters in ‘Fargo’ look like smart guys. But the worst and most stupid of them are potentially dangerous. (And if you’re in land use, you know what I’m talking about.)

          Put this way: the housing developers made political road kill of anyone who tried to stop their SprawlMachine. And there was an implicit threat from the worst among them that you’d be — literally — dead, because they were so important, their projects were such a big fucking deal that if you tried to ‘compromise’ with them on environmental protections, if you cost them even a single dollar it was as they viewed you as a threat. In their minds, ‘building homes’ was such a noble task that no other social obligations should ever be asked of them. (Yes, as you know, the worst of them were/are that narcissistic.)

          And no one will ever convince me that this wasn’t a huge, politically and financially interconnected system.

          A few people from inside muttered to me about it from time to time, and by the mid-2000s, I have reason to believe that some of the better builders were getting fed up with the ‘political shakedown’ and the expectations to keep feeding the GOP coffers. (That’s my murky sense of the meaning behind odd comments here and there that at the time didn’t really make sense. Which is probably why I remember them, in the way that you tend to recall things that are just odd and kind of nag at you.)

          The whole K-k-k-karl Rove political dynamic of starting the GOP political takeover with school boards, often putting evangelicals up for office to control public education — hell, yes, we saw that in Western Washington (!) — then they moved up the political ladder to legislatures, then to judgeships; we have had it all.
          As near as I can figure it out, it was the nexus of GOP + megachurches + ‘property rights’/developer alliances. The builders (and mortgage bankers) were funding their political machine, from what I was told by people in the industry, but I have no real understanding of just how all the mechanisms of campaign money worked.

          In the Clinton years, the GOP-homebuilder-evangelical alliance picked off one, after another, after another of the sane, reasonable, environmentally progressive electeds who in the 1990s were trying to move forward. They all acted like Al Gore was some kind of ‘pansy’ for mentioning Smart Growth, or for talking about sprawl as an environmental disaster. They were so full of themselves, and so temperamentally black-white thinkers, that I had several tell me that peak oil and climate change were ‘just myths’. (I was dumbfounded at their obdurate stupidity, but I’m only preaching to the choir, I’m sure.)

          And to ‘take out’ the environmentally responsible electeds, the GOP and their builder funders sent out smear, filth and slime that would make Lucifer blush with shame. And because of the ‘we are just observers’ mindset of the local press, these predators and their evil deeds were not exposed. They polluted the social discourse; a very short-term, opportunistic strategy. I think of it as the political equivilent of their irresponsible, fraud-riddled, crappy subdivisions; it’s all of the same character, if you ask me.

          And I’ve seen some of those homebuilders treat planning staff, or public works/transportation staff, or demographers like absolute shit — and I’m guessing that you know what I’m talking about.

          I used to scoff to my spouse about how those builder idiots seemed to believe that their dicks would lengthen with every additional subdivision. These guys were sitting on planning boards and in legislatures, yet they couldn’t read and understand an EIS (Environmental Impact Statement) unless they got brain implants. These were the last people on earth who should have been making planning recommendations, and it was a scandal. (The public stopped showing up for ‘Public Hearings’, which was one way to call bullshit. But the builders were so narcissistic they took it as a ‘green light’ rather than an ominous sign.)

          So what we had — and I’m guessing that you saw the very same thing:
          Biologists, soils scientists, hydrologists, demographers, civil engineers with years of experience, and other people with a lot of education (not cheap for any of them), hired for their expertise, trying their damndest to produce excellent work as a basis for good decisions.

          And what happened?!
          Well, the builders, who knew how to short-plan, adjust boundary lines, and create developments made 10x the money, and gave enough of it to political campaigns that they were able to get people elected who viewed these builders as ‘the experts’.

          So then those electeds, who relied on the developers for guidance, went with the builder advice, rather than the statistics and data from their own scientists.
          Lawsuit city!!!!!!!!!!!
          So that put the municipalities in court again, and again, and again, bleeding away time and energy.
          And the planning staffs and government employees just became exhausted and hopeless… at least, that’s what I saw.

          The builders who couldn’t tell you jack shit about the lifecycles of anadromous fishes, or couldn’t follow the math of a well-written EIS — those same dumbfucks sometimes treated staff like shit. They didn’t read the studies that staff produced, because who needs to read science if you already believe that Making The Almighty Dollar Hand Over Fist is God’s Plan For You. (Cue in the megachurch chorus here… and I don’t mean to insult people who truly have Faith, I’m just heaping scorn on people who show up at church in order to make more contacts for their future business plans.)

          So if you believe that God has a plan for you, then whatever biologists, or engineers, or hydrologists tell you just goes in one ear and out the other. Because in your mind, the science doesn’t matter because after all, anyone who disagrees with them is not legitimate because:
          (1) only builders and GOPers are ‘legitimate sources of information’‘, and
          (2) making money is always and everywhere the ‘right’ thing to do, so if anything slows down making money it should be scorned, discredited, and avoided, and
          (3) environmentalists are extremist, unreasonable people who eat twigs, hug trees, and howl at the moon and therefore you can ignore them.

          Clearly, this whole ‘sprawlWars’ topic still hits my ‘hot buttons’.

          To say that the sprawl-enabling housing boom was an environmental disaster is an understatement.

          What is happening today in the Gulf of Mexico already happened quietly, one subdivision at a time, through the 80s, 90s, and 2000s.

          And the same fuckwitted, head-up-the-ass electeds who relied on builder money to get elected, relied on those same ‘Free Market Capitalism devotees’ for advice on stream corridor protections. Some of those electeds were so craven and feckless that if they’d simply run for office as members of The Spineless Weenie Party, that at least would have been honest.

          But in my calmer moments, I have sometimes wondered how many of those electeds were partly making bad decisions because they weren’t all that knowledgeable, and it didn’t take very much to intimated them (nor to flatter them). There was more than one time that I got the implied message that to try and stand up to some of the worst among the housing developers was to sense that your brakes were going to suddenly fail.
          Most people, perhaps rightly and wisely, don’t have the stomach for this kind of bullshit (or perhaps they’re just less obstinate than Yours Truly?).

          Feel free to email me: [email protected]
          I don’t check it often, but will make a point of checking it this week.

          We have to get the money out of politics.
          If we live long enough to give it a shot.

          These people’s actions, and the desires of so many of us who bought into The American Dream, were catastrophic from a biological, long-term perspective. But anyone who tried to use facts, or science, or logic to argue against these egos was spitting into the wind.

          On that whole ‘spitting into the wind’ thing, Yours Truly is an expert of the most exhausted, lowly, obstinate, and persistent order.

          To retool this economy, honest to God, Obama would have to start with housing and build up from there. It won’t happen, because it’s too overwhelming to take on. But it would be so strategic: energy, transportation, housing, economics all in one move. It won’t happen. But it should.

    • Bluetoe2 says:

      Very enlightening insights but unfortunately I don’t expect to hear them on NPR’s nightly news program or any other establishment news outlet for that matter. As serfs the masters’s of the universe would prefer that their subjects be kept in the dark. Why do you think they called it the Dark Ages?

      • posaune says:

        Well, you certainly would never have heard about it on NPR, because Pulte was one of their sponsors!

    • prostratedragon says:

      Thanks for all the valuable information, posaune.

      Do I infer correctly that the behavior of the nationals in your area as you observed it seem new to this recent period? As you know, the long process of pre-empting smaller local residential building operations has been uneven throughout the country, but it seemed to accelerate recently in some parts of the country, e.g. the Chicago area. There could be some statistical fun in seeking a relationship in data between bubble formation and bubble size, and local industry changes.

      Would you feel comfortable stating in which BEA region you made these observations? (It’s certainly understandable if you would not.)

  7. NorskeFlamethrower says:

    AND THE KILLIN’ GOEZ ON AND ON AND…

    Citizen emptywheel:

    Bless your heart Sister Marcy but all your hard work in exposing the corruption and sociopathic tendancies among our political elites and their masters in the American oligarchy is less than a cry in the wilderness…it’s more like tryin’ ta piss in a hurricane.

    If our system is so corrupt that we can’t convict members of our government who expose our own spies at a time when we have troops in harm’s way, then I don’t figure we are ever gunna do what is necessary to expose and rid ourselves of the government-media-Wall Street mafiosi.

    We’re toast and I’m afraid that the rest of the world is not gunna put up with our threat to the planet much longer.

    But thanks for the information…it’s nice ta know who it is exactly that is stealin’ our history and bankrupting our future.

    KEEP THE FAITH AND PASS THE AMMUNITION, IT’S ALL ABOUT THE WARS NOW!!

  8. ezdidit says:

    Every morning, the very first thoughts that cross my mind are
    1.) this is 2010
    2.) Bush is still not in prison, and
    3.) Sarah Palin and Alan Grenspan are schmucks.
    Is this normal?

  9. ShotoJamf says:

    So what are the chances that there will be any sort of coverage of this on any of the cable tv channels, MSNBC in particular? In my view, Mrs. Greenspan should immediately recuse herself (or better yet, retire, already). Her stuffed shirt husband crashes the economy and she still gets to yammer on as though nothing has happened? Bullshit. It ain’t exactly like she needs the money.

    • kindGSL says:

      I have already been accusing them (MSNBC) of discriminating against me based on their Catholic religion for quite some time. I am a Native American coming out for freedom of religion. I think their, MSNBC’s, track record against the Islamic world speaks volumes about their Catholicism.

      Lately I have been thinking Chris Matthews has been HEARING my message ands leaving that flock.

      I suspect he is rather freaked out by the illegal sexual scandal of the Catholic pope covering up for child abusers and all. I have been sending Chris messages about my Girl Scout religious freedom movement for quite some time
      now, it looks to me like he is, once again, or finally(?), starting to listen to me. We will see.

  10. Hugh says:

    in this regard it is possible to lose control of a process that only we fully understand

    Greenspan was of course correct. The process he is referring to is not the housing market or monetary policy, however, It is the looting of the federal government and the American people. This is what Greenspan’s career has always been about right from the early days and his authoring the 1983 Social Security reforms which created faux surpluses for the rubes and 35 years of free money to burn for Presidents and Congresses.

  11. Bluetoe2 says:

    In other countries the likes of Greenspan, Geithner, Summers, Blankfein, Emanuel et al would be outcasts and would likely fear for their lives. In the U.S. they are touted as experts and celebrities.

  12. R.H. Green says:

    “…control of a process that only we fully understand.”

    That part says a lot. Two phrases leap out: “control of a process” and “fully understand”. If the process being discussed is the management of inflation in the housing market, then it is being admitted that the dynamics of that market were fully understood, and were under control. And look what happened.

  13. perris says:

    as far as I am concerned, greenspan’s biggest sin was converting the fed into an agency who’s primary purpose was to keep wages down

    whenever you saw the term “the economy is heating up, we have to raise rates”, what he meant was “wage pressure is forcing wages higher, we need to make cash less available so labor wages do not rise”

    whenever you saw “the economy is stable and we can keep rates low” what he meant was;

    “there are more qualified job applicants then positions, wage pressure is low and we can therefore keep rates low”

    the man was the primary force in the class war against middle america

    • kindGSL says:

      I agree, and add in the ‘failure’ to deal with illegal immigration and where that is leading us, I am not kidding when I say their goal is a reinstatement of slavery.

      Good thing people have been listening to me. The TEA Party was my idea, and not the only one. When it comes to good ideas, I have a million of them. I figured out a way to end war.

      Greenspan needs to go to jail for treason against the American economy, IMO.

    • qweryous says:

      Interesting.

      Followed a link at the raw story link you provided and the Roll Call story that apparently revealed the cockroach infestation had some additional interesting details:

      Excerpt from the story at Roll Call:

      “It started as such a loose supper club,” Sojka said, “and now there are 350 invitees.”

      Members pay about $1,200 a year to join the group, though Congressional staff and Members are allowed to attend the dinners for free. The Cockroaches received a letter from the Senate Ethics Committee in 2008 declaring that for the purposes of Congressional ethics rules, Cockroaches dinners are “widely attended events,” and Members and staff could attend for free.” Bold added.

      Second excerpt from the story at Roll Call:

      “The Cockroaches group claims among regular attendees through the years House Intelligence ranking member Pete Hoekstra (R-Mich.), ex-Rep. Curt Weldon (R-Pa.), Undersecretary of Defense for Intelligence James Clapper, the former head of the Defense Advanced Research Projects Agency and other top military and government officials.”
      Bold added.

      The mind just spins at the possible titles for a post at Emptywheel.

  14. montanamaven says:

    Most excellent title. She reminds me of a Shakespeare queen who was part of the plot and ended up going a bonkers. But then Shakespeare usually had the bad guys come to a bad end. Nowadays, the bad guys don’t seem to be punished at all.

    RICO, RICO, RICO!

    • kindGSL says:

      Nowadays, the bad guys don’t seem to be punished at all.

      Isn’t that a sign of the “end times”?

    • Bluetoe2 says:

      In Obama’s post partisan world the bad guys are rewarded and the good ones are allowed to suffer further indignities. If Shakespeare were to use Obama as a subject of a play it would either have to be a tragedy or a comedy. Maybe a tragic comedy.

  15. ubetchaiam says:

    And in the meantime Obama and Geithner will ‘pull out all stops’ to defeat the Senate passing an ‘audit the Fed’ amendment despite it having well over 50 votes that ARE bi-partisan and the House already having passed such legislation to audit the Fed.

  16. razorbrain says:

    “Unforgiveable.” That one word says it all.

    All these guys should be marooned on a desert island without food, and forced to feed on each other for a change. Let’s see how much they believe in the law of the jungle then.

  17. AZ Matt says:

    Will anyone here be offended if I call Greenspan a pissant?
    Nope!? I didn’t think so.

    • razorbrain says:

      I keep an actual pissant right here under my desk, and he just told me he’s deeply offended.

  18. fatster says:

    O/T. Vote scheduled for Thursday on appointment of Goodwin Liu to the 9th Circuit (Yes!) and Lohier to the 2nd.

    LINK.

  19. Bluetoe2 says:

    If the revelations that come out almost daily were to be occurring in a European country the people would be in the streets building barricades and the ruling elites would be trembling in fear for their lives. In the U.S. nothing more than an indignant harrumph at best and more typically a collective sigh of disinterest.

    • JThomason says:

      I like the broad strokes you use to represent the current situation. The US has never had to face the revolutionary economic reorganization that Western Europe is familiar with. Perhaps the fact that trust busting for some time was part of the political ethos has ameliorated and postponed crisis. I agree with ROTL here in the notion that we have a conspiracy unfolding that anticipated the predictable political opposition and conceived a media policy that was able to circumvent the customary cultural considerations. In the end we the people fell prey to the global coffee house life of easy credit which in turn became the perfect vehicle for large scale usury.

      Human social pressures in the end counsel against the end of this cycle. This is why the comments on liberal power and Obama’s “fiddling” as the Gulf of Mexico is wasted are so instructive. Despite BHO good tidings it is true that the risk of government intervention is a kind of equity fraud devolving unearned or surplus power on the bureaucrats and their neo-feudal technocratic overlords. A very instructive morality piece on the dependence of social power on the monetary system is set out nicely in the recentGerman film The Counterfeiters which I watched last night so could not help but mention.

      But of course I oversimplify. The discipline of the guillotine that the French introduced into their political life is not a shared Western European experience. Throwing off the shackles of this neo-feudalism will be no walk in the park especially when realizes that the current emergent Chinese hegemony was centuries in the making and what this fact means to the operative forces that drive human historic evolution.

  20. CalGeorge says:

    “…it is possible to lose control of a process that only we fully understand.”

    His inner Ayn Rand is showing.

    “What are your masses but mud to be ground underfoot, fuel to be burned for those who deserve it? What is the people but millions of puny, shriveled, helpless souls that have no thoughts of their own, no will of their own, who eat and sleep and chew helplessly the words others put into their mildewed brains?” – Ayn Rand, We the Living

  21. jayker says:

    Greenspan and wife are part of the insider elite class who view the average citizen for whom they work and report as beneath them in value and knowledge. Like most popular icons of power and success in this post modern world these folks are clever but not wise and lack a true sense of concern or respect for the citizens that they hustle for a living. Unless our leaders act with oodles more altruistic virtue in their public careers we are doomed to become the failed state we are hurtling toward. Geitner, Obama, Dodd, the Bard of Omaha, Greenspan, Rubin, Fanny, Freddy, Goldman Sachs- all icons of deceit as are most (Republican or Democrat)in big government and big business in this tragic era of deceit in which we currently live. Wahington is broken. Board rooms are corrupt. What’s in it for me rules.

  22. readerOfTeaLeaves says:

    Dylan Ratigan’s MSNBC program has Ron Paul and Grayson talking about the Audit the Fed proposal today. They start talking about Greenspan’s comments around 10 min into the segment.

    Worth watching.

  23. Imhotep says:

    I can remember an interview Mitchell gave about when she was dating Greenspan-she said she thought he was so “sexy.” She was practically panting. It was very strange until you realize that, for some women, the alpha, alpha male, whether in business or otherwise, is what turns them on.

  24. JohnLopresti says:

    I saw some of the pre-bubble from inside a silicon valley startup. Venture capital and credit were churning. The internet was beginning to be the key technology driving business plans. Banal housing outfits were late to the party. It probably was a fun time to be a banker, too. Sub-prime was an interesting concept. Which is to say, there was an economic continuum visible early. BClinton*s mid-east enthusiasm was part of the scenery. The Republicans placed a president with Scotus help, to skim some of the profit for their own stalwarts. So I do not blame Greenspan or his successor. In the way later time, I would almost say, too bad Stark was allowed to serve only one day as chair of house ways and means; as a former banker who might have provided some contrast to business as usual. The terra cluster of political initiatives of Bushco numbed congress for years at a time when there still was a way to taper the wildness of the internet world inspired economic lift. Then there was a guaranteed handover to the Democrats, Bushco had gotten so tangential; so the administration transition strategy staple of handing the toughest knot of problems to the other party was Bushco*s fallback cookiecutter plan. Fortunately a lot of the problems crunched into reality while Bushco was in its final 18 months; so Republicans are not going to have a chimeric way to affix the downturn upon O*co exclusively.

  25. workingclass says:

    It was always clear that Greenspan was a class warrior. But I was surprised to find that he is a practicing Randroid. That means he is stupid. Is his wife also stupid? Who cares.

  26. tbsa says:

    Perhaps Mrs. Greenspan can interview her husband and rake him over the coals about why he’s such a damn liar.

  27. Frank33 says:

    He’s Back! And he has the political will and money bags to stop the Audit of the Federal Reserve. I am talking about the Rahminator.

    “I think momentum is with us. But I’ve gotta tell you, that on this amendment, you’re taking on all of Wall Street, you’re taking on the Fed, obviously, and unfortunately you seem to be taking on the White House, as well. And that’s a tough group to beat,” said Sanders.

    He’s been trading calls, he said, with Rahm Emanuel, the White House chief of staff.

    Earlier on Monday, HuffPost reported that former Fed Chairman Alan Greenspan wanted dissent kept secret so that people outside the Fed wouldn’t involve themselves in their debates.

  28. Hmmm says:

    Any ideas how this very old Greenspan story came to break today, right as the Bankster Reform legislative debate’s taking off? (This is not a complaint!)

    • qweryous says:

      “As you read the entire story, note carefully Grim’s description of what appears in the transcript, but not the minutes.”

      Following the link EW provided in the post leads to the story at Huffington Post and the following:

      ” Had Guynn’s warning been heeded and the housing market cooled, the financial collapse of 2008 could have been avoided. But his comment was kept secret until Friday, when the central bank released the transcripts of Federal Open Market Committee meetings for 2004 and CalculatedRisk spotted it. The transcripts for 2005 to the present are still secret.”

      Also from the Huffington Post story at the above link:

      “But the Fed also benefits from the timing. “Transcripts of meetings for an entire year are released to the public with a five-year lag,” according the Fed’s own policy. Had the transcripts been released on time, they could have influenced the confirmation of Ben Bernanke for a second term as chairman. Meanwhile, the Fed policy of releasing a full year at once deprives the public of transcripts from the first four months of 2005, which are now five years old. A Fed spokeswoman tells HuffPost those transcripts will be available at roughly this time next year. “

      So standard operating procedure leads to the transcript release, but the intrepid main stream media some blogger type went and read the transcript, and then posted, causing further analysis and posting on the discrepancy between the transcript and the previously released minutes.

      • fatster says:

        And do check this out (hope it hasn’t already been linked here–haven’t had time to read all comments yet). Another one from Grim: “The White House, Federal Reserve and Wall Street lobbyists are kicking up their opposition to an amendment to audit the Fed as a Senate vote approaches, Sen. Bernie Sanders (I-Vt.), the lead sponsor of the measure, said on Monday.”

        Gee, wonder what they’re so anxious to hide?

        LINK.

  29. doremus35 says:

    Help me out with my obviously defective thinking: In this great land it is perfectly legal for the fincancial sector to bribe politicians to pass laws that allow the financial sector to lie, cheat, and steal legally to such a degree that they destroy the economy of the US, but heaven help the poor, average American smuck if, God forbid, he is caught with a small amount of a harmless plant which hurts no one. Now that’s what I call balanced. Only the abjectly delusional still think we live in a democracy. How in the world could any rational being call this the land of the free and the home of the brave? But then again, I have been accused before of exhibiting defective thinking.

    • kindGSL says:

      When I discovered that flaw in the space time continuum, I decided we needed a new political party that wasn’t all corrupted to deal with it. I have been arguing for a new third party ever since.

      Successfully too, I might add, both the TEA and Coffee parties have started up since then. I consider that a big personal success.

        • kindGSL says:

          Thank you. I hope you are not being sarcastic.

          Usually people tell me I am delusional to claim the TEA Party as my idea. It just happened again today,

          Crazy? Stupid? Tea Party Supporters Are Neither
          http://www.alternet.org/news/146707/crazy_stupid_tea_party_supporters_are_neither

          At AlterNet I am ‘Sister Lauren’.

          I just hope the whole thing doesn’t backfire, our politics is pretty discouraging and I have never been able to get the ‘reporters’ to pay attention to me or acknowledge my message. That is why I think they are all corrupt.

          Thanks for the thank you. I needed it.

  30. orionATL says:

    it is important to keep in mind,

    with respect to anything alan greenspan did as sultan of the federal reserve,

    that, long before he was ever associated with the fed,

    alan greespan was a republican political operative –

    just like john roberts,

    just like like john yoo,

    just like lawrence silberman,

    just like miguel estrada,

    just like antonin corleone.

    so uncle alan, long before he became uncle alan, was a young republican party activist.

    how is this relevant to this post by ew?

    well, the relevance is in this comment

    “…we run tne risk … of inducing people to join in the debate…”

    inducing?

    inducing who?

    well,

    what was happening in 2004?

    an increasingly unpopular republican prez was up for re-election.

    so who might be those members of the great unwashed who might be “induced” to join in the debate over an evident housing bubble?

    why, democrats criticizing george bush’s economic “policy” in a presidential election year, that’s who.

    uncle alan was speaking in political code.

    uncle alan was trying to suppress information the nation needed to know in order to hide that info from drmocrsts and to eep his party in control of the whitehouse.

    an thsmat’s why the w-h keep stroking uncle alan’s —-.

    greenspan, in the minutes referenced, was working to keep the lid on a developing economic matter that could sink g. w.’s re-election bid in 2004.

    uncle alan, what a mensch!!*

    *did he get the medal if freedom award like george tenet?

  31. iremember54 says:

    Isn’t it funny that the same Media that made Greenspan out to be an oracle, are now questioning Him.

    The guy was nothing but a pompose ass, from the time He stepped on the scene.

    His so-called worries about inflation, deflated the Country to where the little guy got no raises while the rich bastards got all the bucks.

    He set the Country up for all the bad that has happened, because He knew it all.

    Now instead of being so ashamed He hides from view, the ass is out there again flapping His lips. Well I guess we are doomed to put up with all the bad guys like Him and Cheney who just won’t go the fuck away.

  32. klynn says:

    pusaune and RoTL:

    The two of you need to write a series together. Some great information and RoTL,

    As near as I could figure it out, K-k-k-karl Rove had some kind of integrated operation that involved megachurches, mortgage banks, realtor estate lobbyists, Chamber of Commerce, homebuilder lobbying groups, with the GOP organizing and driving their activities. These guys thought they owned the friggin’ world, and they came mighty close.

    We even have the planned communities here totally underwritten by a megachurches.

    And pusaune, I would add the real estate industry as a partner with the building industry. It was some serious collusion.

    The real estate industry knew about the bubble before the bubble burst. And they knew the loans were getting rebundled and resold. They knew the risks. I would not be surprised if the national RE firms were investing in the coming failures. (Based on comments to my family from a BIG RE developer two years before the bubble. He thought we were too stupid to understand. Sound familiar?)

    • posaune says:

      Klynn, where are you located? can you say which churches? The church housing development just turns by-right development on its head. To say nothing of the 1st amendment, either.

      • klynn says:

        Read this under the political stats and you will have the very institution.

        And I discovered by accident, responding to a classified add for an antique bed. Long story. Interesting unwelcoming community.

        • klynn says:

          BTW, I do not want to post the name because they have folks who comb the web all day for reference to their church. We would never see the end of trolls.

          So, I provided the report in order to avoid a web hit that would result in bringing not nice folks here.

          • posaune says:

            Great report link, klynn. A lot there.
            Interesting the tie to suburban development — esp from 200-2005, the crank-up of the housing boom.

    • posaune says:

      Yeah, you’re absolutely right. It took the RE industry to execute the fraud, i.e., haul in the suckers. And they knew it, too. Now that would be some great sleuthing — how much Natl Assn Realtors took in membership fees, and how much was spun to the politicians, and, yes, acting like mini-GS Abacus investments. Bet those assholes were betting against the very products they hawked. I think the only profession with a Code of Ethics binding upon certification is the American Institute of Planners. A lot of good that did, LOL.

      • klynn says:

        In 1998, I was tutoring a young lady whose family attended the church I referenced. Her family lived in a community a good 35-40 minutes from the church. The church had started a school years earlier but it had a sudden growth as the church built a huge new facility. (If you build it they will come approach.) The family mentioned that they were going to move out closer to the church because they wanted their daughter to go to the church school. (This only two years after buying a house in the suburb they were in.) I was told they would be getting help from their church in order to make the move. I did not push to learn more. Wish I had. However, I was not surprised when I discovered all the parcels near the church had been bought up by the church. Homes now sit on those parcels.

        And another thought about the RE industry…make of the nat’l firms had their favorite banks to refer clients to for lending. It is just so cozy.

      • readerOfTeaLeaves says:

        Yeah, you’re absolutely right. It took the RE industry to execute the fraud, i.e., haul in the suckers. And they knew it, too. Now that would be some great sleuthing — how much Natl Assn Realtors took in membership fees, and how much was spun to the politicians, and, yes, acting like mini-GS Abacus investments. Bet those assholes were betting against the very products they hawked. I think the only profession with a Code of Ethics binding upon certification is the American Institute of Planners. A lot of good that did, LOL.

        That part in bold? I think that you’re thinking what I’m thinking.

        I think this thing is so huge we can’t even imagine how big it is.

        But I also know a few really terrific realtors, and they were seeing things that they thought were damn sketchy, and wanted to steer clear of… and they said, “Cops? There are no cops.”

        It was hard to check back here on this thread, actually.
        I revealed far more than I care to… but it also may explain my enormous respect for EW, bmaz, and ‘the regulars.’

        Just to know on a daily basis that there are people who hate bullshit and call it out… reading FDL and EW have been a godsend, to say the least.

        • posaune says:

          ROTL, well, I’m grateful you posted. Truly grateful. I can’t tell you how many many times in the last 10 years, I felt like I was losing my mind. I saw wrong in my profession. . . . and no one else did, or if they did, it was a “technical deficiency.” There are verrrrrrry few folks who get the big picture. EW and bmaz have been my sanity. There isn’t anyone anywhere who can see the big picture like they do. It’s amazing, their prowess. And more so, their ethics.

          • readerOfTeaLeaves says:

            I can’t tell you how many many times in the last 10 years, I felt like I was losing my mind. I saw wrong in my profession. . . . and no one else did, or if they did, it was a “technical deficiency.” There are verrrrrrry few folks who get the big picture. EW and bmaz have been my sanity. There isn’t anyone anywhere who can see the big picture like they do. It’s amazing, their prowess. And more so, their ethics.

            You are ‘preaching to the choir’ on each and every point: wondering if I was the crazy one? Check.
            Frustrated and deeply alarmed that too few can see The Big Picture? Check.
            Amazed at the prowess (to say nothing of the productivity) of EW, bmaz and others around her? Check.

            Grateful?
            Absolutely.

            Thanks, and I hope you’ll keep in touch.

            I really admire you for being able to do your job; I will safely assume that you are working against enormous odds.

  33. harpie says:

    A quick look at “how much was spun to the politicians“:

    http://www.opensecrets.org >Influence and Lobbying>Real Estate-Background:
    http://www.opensecrets.org/lobby/background.php?lname=F10&year=2010

    Top Industries 1998-2010 [RE is #10]
    http://www.opensecrets.org/lobby/top.php?indexType=i

    Industry Profile-Real Estate:
    http://www.opensecrets.org/lobby/indusclient.php?lname=F10&year=a

    Real Estate is #9 in the Revolving Door-Top Employers that are Top Donors:
    http://www.opensecrets.org/revolving/top.php?display=D

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