Victory Is Mine!!!!
Finally, a TradMed source who knows how to read!!!!
But in looking at the substance of the accusations, it increasingly looks like [Nancy Pelosi] was right. Porter Goss was careful to parse his words in the conditional future tense when talking about what, exactly, he and Pelosi were briefed on in September 2002:
Today, I am slack-jawed to read that members claim to have not understood that the techniques on which they were briefed were to actually be employed; or that specific techniques such as "waterboarding" were never mentioned.
And Senator Richard Shelby also carefully avoided saying he’d been briefed on EITs that had already been used, saying only that he’d been told about the techniques. And “purported” isn’t exactly a strong word – it’s a synonym of suggested or claimed. From his statement:
As Vice Chairman of the Senate Select Committee on Intelligence in 2002, Senator Shelby was briefed by the CIA on the Agency’s interrogation program and the existence of Enhanced Interrogation Techniques (EITs). To his recollection, not only did the CIA briefers provide what was purported to be a full account of the techniques, they also described the need for these techniques and the value of the information being obtained from terrorists during questioning.
Bob Graham, who was theoretically in the room with Shelby, says he has no recollection of the meeting at all – this from a man who famously details his every waking minute. Perhaps the most astonishing response has been from the CIA Director Leon Panetta, who basically said: Don’t trust our records. Which begs the question: what other issues have they kept questionable records on?
There are about 8 more sentences, all of them sweet vindication. I can’t believe it took me one month and a Swampland post to feel like this. And it’s admittedly one damn battle in a too-long war on flaccid media.
But still. It feels good.
Hah! I read that earlier that thought she’d cribbed it from you… But either way, it oozed out onto a platform run by very serious journalists… /s
But a victory is just that…sweet!
“Swampland” is TradMed?
Anyway, vindication is sweet wherever you can find it!
Congratulations!
Bob in HI
OK, I see the Time/CNN banner now. Shoulda read first and wrote later.
Congrats again!
Bob in HI
EW! You coasted to the Win by a couple dozen days…it’s great to see the proper, balanced framing and context finally coming to the Pelosi Briefing issue!
The difference has been, imvho, that you took the time to really look and ’see’ what was there – a deeper look – rather than impulsively falling for the sheen of “Pelosi Knew” on the surface of the document.
Brava! Brava!
The CIA is melting! It is melting away!
Next we’ll get them to admit they read the blogs as sources for their stories. Hah! *g*
Ya, they will say redstate or some such sack of dog mess.
Make them spend it all……
I posted this on perris’ diary for both of you for next week, seems appropriate to post it here…
a song for you to hum. go, girl.
I’m Sitting on Top of the World
Les Paul and Mary Ford
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=2royZPaH89A
and earlier, i sent a letter to msnbc saying Lawrence O’Donnell should have the 10pm slot (or the dancin’ jo-jo’s morning spot) and that you should be his ‘ana marie’..two fact-brainiacs, guests would have to know what they are talking about. how refreshing.
Well, it may have the same title, but the LP&MF version is a far cry from the Bluegrass song of the same name. Thanks for the link, though. Its been way too long since I’ve heard some LP&MF. What a pair!
Bob in HI
dug it up for perris and marcy, les is one of his heroes. the cool thing about that version or any song he did, is what he had invented for the song to be a vehicle to use. which is why i chose les paul for the celebrate marcy song in perris’ diary.she is as inventive as he.
wiki on the versions of the song, which is another one of the reasons i chose that one for marcy. many incarnations, all good.
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/S….._the_World
You mean, improve the information environment…?
Isn’t that kind of like cleaning up the pollution in a lake or something?
Like… cleaning up the air?
yayah, strange, that!
VICTORY!! Where Bob Graham keeps his mighty notebooks, EW keeps her brain, her timelines, and her links. Satisfaction.
Though I gotta say, Newton-Small was dealing bogosity in the dead three version.
or another ‘b’ word–bloviate
or bobo-sity.
boy, i wish i could get paid for being pretentious. that would be fun!
for a day.
Why go so easy on Jay Newton-Small for the egregious hit job he did on Pelosi in the “print” version? Who appointed him the PR advisor to the stars?
A ’small’ point, and merely as regards accuracy in ‘reporting’, “he” is a she.
“Jay” Newton-Small is Ms. Newton-Small? (sorry for lag, took me 15 minutes to plug my friends’ emails into the FDL fundraising tool)
Yes.
This is good to hear, EW
I should see if the comments on the blog-entry are still open. We could all head over with congratulations, as well as pointing them to your more in-depth, and much earlier, analysis?
Always nice to be able to say you’re NOT crazy, huh? Even though all your “Wheelies” know that you’re not.
Funny Wheelie Diva
Here’s what I wonder: Is the deluge of so much information, news cycles going so fast, so much to follow, leading to a tendency to skim rather than to read closely? To rely on the easy route of just reading a mistaken headline or passing over the adverbs and adjectives and just getting the gist of nouns and verbs? I confess I’ve sometimes been guilty of skimming myself. But one mustn’t do that when a professional judgment is required.
I agree that a more accurate view is beginning to percolate upward. But is it percolating because people are actually reading more carefully? Or is it simply that the headlines of blogs or the pounding away at the same message by some is beginning to change the story line?
I wish it were so that some are beginning to read more carefully. And to actually take time to reflect. But I fear it’s the factor of repetition that’s responsible.
We’ll have to wait and see.
Ah. Interesting point, TheraP.
For myself, at this point, whatever the causality, if the end result is to change the story line in a more factual direction, that’s A-OK with me. I’ll continue to be smug that “Oh, I read that over at EW’s weeks ago” though, OK?
Funny Wheelie Diva
As a certified skimmer, I think that’s often the best we can manage. Sometimes it works; other times it plays into the Cheneys of the world.
But the blogs are clearly part of it.
The other Congressmen coming forward – and Graham with his evidently legendary rep for documenting accurately – is also part of it. I trust Nancy Pelosi will remember who backed her up and who screwed her ;-))
(And I hope the other Dems also take note.)
As for Joe Klein, I’ve come at least 105 degrees on the man since he ripped the neocons a new arsehole last July. I’d love to know what lay behind Klein’s “new rules”, but something pissed him off big time. Frankly, I’ve observed (and experienced) that sometimes after coming up short, an individual is more than ever committed to ‘getting it right’, and it looks to me as if he’s really working at trying to be in that category. His analysis of the Obama-Cheney speeches today was, IMHO, pretty incisive from what I’ve been able to see of them.
But yeah, ‘information overload’ is clearly a problem with the media, the electeds, and probably most of the nation at this point.
Which, IMVHO, just adds to the value of what I read here. (And this is the bulk of my reading; there’s no way I can keep up.)
I think I’m qualified to answer that question, cuz that fits my intelectual M-O perfectly
I bury the opposition in a deluge of facts. I just keep piling up the facts until the opposition breaks
maybe in deference to the opinion, or maybe in deference to the overwhelming and unanswerable pile of facts
or maybe just to get me to SHUT UP
all I know is it’s an effective debating style for me
an my friends can’t even spell debate
(wink)
Yayyy for you, Marcy! You’ve trained all of us, but some are…ummm…faster learners than others. Well deserved recognition you’ve been getting.
Victory Is Mine!!!!
sweet ;^))
Marcy, you’re “growin’” on them …
Truth to tell, you left them in the dust, quite a while back.
Sweet victory is yours, and this is but the beginning of a ‘trend’.
As a journalist, you are, simply, the best.
As a human being who is thoughtful and deeply discerning as well as happily willing to share credit with those who deserve it, you are a most wonderful example.
The award you are soon to receive is most well-deserved. It shall be but one among many, I am certain, as the people of this nation come to understand the incredible importance of what you are doing.
(As to your prodigious ‘output’, realizing that you can type faster than a speeding Igraine -SD’s teleporting cat, it is completely astounding.)
DW
The rule of law benefits greatly from EW spending so much time in the swampland.
“don’t trust our records” that is pathetic
Condi Rice would have to say to EW “you do your homework”
Meh, wasn’t Joe Klein. This person is just Small.
Sehr “punny” bmaz.
Funny Wheeie Diva
Jay, sus …?
Klein = Small in German.
Like I said, sehr punny. Because bmaz would never disparage our EW…though Time pundits have earned no such restraint.
Funny Wheelie (literal-minded) Diva
Sehr gut, Funnydiva! Dann auf deutsch wir muss gesprache?
I habe nur ein bisschen deutsch.
;~DW
On the topic of this sentence from the swampland post
Bob Graham said in September 2007 that intel officials got two dates wrong when they claimed he was briefed on domestic surveillanceOct. 25, 2001 and April 10, 2002
Back in September 07, Graham said:
I believe the April 2002 date Graham referred to may have coincided with the CIA’s recent claims to Graham that he was also briefed that month on torture.
CLAP CLAP CLAP CLAP CLAP CLAP CLAP CLAP ………
I’m giving Marcy a standing ovation.
To your continued success!
SIP SIP SIP …..
Now I am drinking a toast to this exceptional person.
I am very proud of you! Keep up the fantastic work.
At some level, I think it’s important that this question of complicity vs. exclusion of the few Dems who by law should have been in the know about torture – that this question got dealt with up front before anything progresses. It’s almost impossible to imagine political grandstanding NOT happening in the natural progression of dealing with this generation of gop’ers over a serious and deep matter that was perpetrated through their rule.
Let this story sink in some more, and if and when real investigations occur and proceed, it will be a lot harder for blame shifting distractions to get traction.
I love the comments, where the reporter gets the shit beat out of him for being so late to the game, and missing the fact that leon said “don’t take my word for it” in the original letter two weeks back
I’m beginning to think
the peanut galleryMarcy’s gaggle of Misfits ain’t so uniquesome of the comments are direct, and these people KNOW the facts
if ya like good slap down, you should read the comments attached to broder and will
lately, the newspaper-bankrupcy thing is explained on nearly every thread
some day, some editor is gonna READ the comments and be AMAZED
I doubt the BIZ department of any major paper ever figures it out
One further comment. Marcy’s close reading is sorely needed. And this blog has become a place for people who appreciate that to come and drink the pure water from the gushing spring. Add those of us who go out and bang the drums. And I see us inching forward.
The value of the web, I think, is that different topics, different words and sentences rings bells for each of us. When we combine the info that leaps up in our various areas of expertise or interest, then sometimes there’s a magnifier effect on the web, which moves information forward.
Take that tiny “bingo” of mine – “hypergraphia” re Abu Zubaida, based on Marcy’s link. That idea seems to have gone places, most likely because it’s genesis was traceable back to here. But also because people are paying attention to this blog.
Each of us plays a role. It’s amazing to be part of this. We won’t get all we want. But we’ll get some of it.
Keep banging the drums!
All I want is for our leaders to actually mean what they say “no one is above the law” so far it is not looking good. The banging here at FDL is being heard in the supposed halls of justice and on the MSM via KO, Rachel, Ed, and yes Matthews
Or in Molly Ivins’s words: Go out and bang pots and pans!
Can I just say that the victory is yours and also a victory for the whole country!!
Now, can I gripe for a minute? I have linked your blog to some of the smartest people I know, repeatedly and perhaps annoyingly. These are folks with ph.d’s published and recognized in their field. Not one, despite my encouragement has met me on this blog. It gripes me to no end. I think that perhaps some of these folks didn’t even read the articles. I don’t get how any intelligent person could miss this opportunity.
This site has been the voice of reason throughout a time in history when our country was taken over by an “insane and immoral” group of politico’s.
The Karma on this one is gonna be a bitch.
However, your fortune awaits E.W….I am certain of this.
marcy, nice to have a solid win in the non-crazymakers’ column! And for msm to be exposed to truth to power fwiw in their glacial learning curve. Congratulations.
EW..I wish Obama would love you and trust you the way we all do here. I wish Obama would take your advice then there could be real hope. U rock!
Good Morning Marcy and Firedogs,
hell Marcy, I’m wondering if Bitsy Bumiller didn’t walk back her Page 1/Recidivist story out of fear she’d be “emptywheeled”
She was “Ackermanned” instead (with amplification at the TPMpire).
Swampland. Yes, a good name for the traditional media – mired in quicksand. But as long as we have Marcy to keep offering to throw a ‘rope’ to those who’ll pay attention to the truth, she’ll help drag some of them out of the muck.
Go, Marcy! Congratulations on the Hillman award. You are truly a treasure.
Here’s to you, Marcy, for all the wonderful work you’ve done, but particularly on the Who Knew What When of Torture and, before that, on the Plame case.
No one does a better or more informed close reading of texts.
It’s a gift you have, but it’s also very hard work.
Thank you.
New word: empty wheeled.
Love it.
my first thought on the non response of your PHd friends –
academic types (forgive the broad brush) usually live within circles wherein they are the designated expert on a given subject.
imagine encountering someone – ‘not even in the field’ – the horror ! who can easily dissect, parse, analyze, and make connections 10 times faster than you thought possible
simplistic ? hell yeah. but I suspect vanity had a hand here
Steny Hoyer read out a passage from TIME to this effect, yesterday, at a some sort of meeting with the press. Someone asked who said this. Hoyer replied, “TIME said it”. That drew a chuckle or two.
Awesome family guy reference!
Bravo Marcy.
This is my favorite part of the morning: tuning in to FDL to discover Marcy winning yet another round in this endless boxing match against Shrub & his legacy of bullshit. Also, don’t miss her amazing baker’s dozen of torturers on Salon last Monday.
Surely, over this long weekend, we can get the thermometer over $100,000, can’t we? I’m hitting PayPal again first thing this morning for Marcy’s Investigative Reporting Endowment Fund (keepin’ it organic).
Sounds like they cribbed from you, which should only make the feeling of vindication stronger.
I for one am glad we have real journalism and Marcy to show what it means to the copyists.
heh heh I just realized this thread started yesterday, and I woke up and thought it was from this morning, but comments here continued overnight! time warp
It’s fair to say that Goss never went beyond a statement that the CIA clearly communicated to Pelosi that waterboarding was to be actually used in the future.
But Shelby is a different matter, if his spokesperson can be trusted to represent what his own opinions were.
Following the links, one finds this reporting from Greg Sargent:
Clearly, this goes well past what Goss said, in asserting that, by his recollection, the CIA briefed Pelosi as to the use of the waterboard in the then past. Of course, it’s certainty is hedged by the use of “he recalls”, but it is nonetheless what he is asserting, with whatever confidence.
I don’t know how Tumulty missed that reference, since it was in the very link she provided to what Shelby said. If she had some reason to dismiss or dispute it, she should certainly have explained that point.
I also find odd her emphasis on the word “purported” in Shelby’s direct statement — she really needs to explain the logic of what she think that implies more carefully.
Seconds, and well put.
Amazing isn’t it that Shelby was briefed on EITs in 2002 when the phrase had not even been dreamed up until much later. How do these repugs find their way to the latrine and when they do how do they find their ass to wipe it.
Sorry to be so lacking in gallantry, but . . .
Did I miss a citation, or did Jay Newton-Small and TIME violate copyright law by not crediting your post?