Tunnels and Trump: The Missing Details in the Oath Keeper Conspiracy

Yesterday, DOJ indicted the three members of the Oath Keepers previously charged with a conspiracy: Thomas Edward Caldwell, Donovan Ray Crowl, and Jessica Marie Watkins.  I would be shocked if this indictment didn’t serve as a building block for a larger — potentially much larger — conspiracy. Which is why I’m interested in what the indictment includes and excludes in this first release.

The indictment adds details describing the planning and intent of the conspiracy. It shows Watkins planning around the inauguration as early as November 9, the day Trump’s enablers were claiming his efforts to undermine the election might serve as an “off-ramp.”

On November 9, 2020, WATKINS sent text messages to a number of individuals who had expressed interest in joining the Ohio State Regular Militia. In these messages, WATKINS mentioned, among other things, that the militia had a week-long “Basic Training class coming up in the beginning of January,” and WATKINS told one recruit, “I need you fighting fit by innaugeration.” [sic] WATKINS told another individual, “It’s a military style basic, here in Ohio, with a Marine Drill Sergeant running it. An hour north of Columbus Ohio[.]”

She also spoke in apocalyptic terms about a Biden presidency.

I can’t predict. I don’t underestimate the resolve of the Deep State. Biden may still yet be our President. If he is, our way of life as we know it is over. Our Republic would be over. Then it is our duty as Americans to fight, kill and die for our rights.


[I]f Biden get the steal, none of us have a chance in my mind. We already have our neck in the noose. They just haven’t kicked the chair yet.

The indictment also includes language making it clear that Watkins believed she was responding to Trump’s instructions.

On December 29, 2020, CROWL and .WATKINS exchanged the following text messages:

WATKINS: You still going to Illinois? We plan on going to DC on the 6th, weather permitting.

CROWL: No . …. What’s going on on the 6th?

WATKINS: DC. Trump wants all able bodied Patriots to come. I’m sure Tom would love to see us as well.

WATKINS: If Trump activates the Insurrection Act, I’d hate to miss it[.]

Because of that and the way the indictment lays out the conspiracy, it makes the details not included in the indictment far more interesting.

The indictment includes a remarkably clear description of the goal and means of the conspiracy. The goal of the conspiracy was to stop Congress’ certification of the vote.

Purpose of the Conspiracy

18. The purpose of the conspiracy was to stop, delay, and hinder Congress’s certification of the Electoral College vote.

Manner and Means

19. CALDWELL, CROWL, and WATKINS, with others known and unknown, carried out the conspiracy through the following manner and means, among others, by:

a. Agreeing to participate in and taking steps to plan an operation to interfere with the official Congressional proceeding on January 6, 2021 (the “January 6 operation”);

b. Using social media, text messaging, and messaging applications to send incendiary messages aimed at recruiting as large a following as possible to go to Washington, D.C., to support the January 6 operation;

c. Coordinating in advance with others, including members of the Oath Keepers from other regions, and joining forces with these individuals and groups to further the January 6 operation;

d. Using a walkie-talkie-like application, and creating a channel on it named “Stop the Steal J6,” to make plans for and to communicate during the January 6 operation;

e. Traveling to and meeting up in Virginia, and continuing together into Washington, D.C., for the January 6 operation;

f. Bringing and contributing paramilitary gear and supplies for the January 6 operation;

g. Forcibly storming past exterior barricades, Capitol Police, and other law enforcement officers, and entering the Capitol complex in furtherance of the January 6 operation; and,

h. After January 6, 2021, concealing evidence of their involvement in the January 6 operation and attack on the Capitol.

While many of the means included military planning, the first two items were simply planning to interfere with the certification and “recruiting as large a following as possible” to participate.

Remember: under conspiracy law, each member of a conspiracy need only agree on a common goal, agree to participate in it, and take an overt act in furthering the conspiracy — an act that doesn’t even, by itself, have to be illegal.

And Watkins, here, not only cites Trump’s goal of wanting, “all able bodied Patriots to come” to DC, but she also describes the plan pushed by Mike Flynn, the invocation of the insurrection act.

Trump and Flynn conveyed those plans on Twitter. They both,

Us[ed] social media, text messaging, and messaging applications to send incendiary messages aimed at recruiting as large a following as possible to go to Washington, D.C., to support the January 6 operation;

It would be child’s play to include them in this conspiracy (though the manner and means would likely be expanded to include other steps the two of them took). Indeed, laid out like this, not eventually including at least those around Trump in this indictment would require some lengthy explanation.

Then there’s this passage that was included in the complaint but not included in the indictment, easily the most chilling language from the complaint.

On January 6, 2021, while at the Capitol, CALDWELL received the following Facebook message: “All members are in the tunnels under capital seal them in . Turn on gas”. When CALDWELL posted a Facebook message that read, “Inside,” he received the following messages, among others: “Tom take that bitch over”; “Tom all legislators are down in the Tunnels 3floors down”; “Do like we had to do when I was in the core start tearing oit florrs go from top to bottom”; and “Go through back house chamber doors facing N left down hallway down steps.”

It’s possible DOJ excluded that paragraph from the indictment because they learned it was not actually part of the conspiracy (which would be surprising, given that it was sent while Caldwell was in the Capitol).

It’s also possible that this language reflects coordination with people against whom the case still must be developed. Whoever it was not only appears to have had a detailed understanding of the Capitol, but may have had updates about the movement of members of Congress.

Just as one possibility, this person might have been one of the people who allegedly got a Capitol tour the day before the insurrection. This person may have been getting updates from insiders — up to and including Lauren Boebert, who twice tweeted about Nancy Pelosi’s movements during the riot.

In other words, this person appears to be a pivot between the terrorists and those giving them inside instruction. DOJ will likely keep what it knows about that part of the operation under wraps until it develops it much further.

Then there are three other people alluded to in the indictment:

  • PERSON ONE, who the conspirators expected might, but did not, provide leadership for this operation. He is referred to as “Stewie” in the complaint, which DOJ took to be a reference to the head of the Oath Keepers, Stewart Rhodes.
  • PERSON TWO, who appears to be Caldwell’s spouse. She joined him in breaching the Capitol, and if prosecutors wanted to pressure him to plead, they could threaten to include her.
  • PERSON THREE appears to be the lead of a group of North Carolina Oath Keepers who came to DC on a bus. That person and the people he or she brought are likely to be added to this indictment.

Those three people, including to those who directed the Oath Keepers how to navigate the Capitol and the Trump associates who incited them to come might all one day be included in this or a related indictment.

Again, I’m not guaranteeing that DOJ will be brave enough to name Trump in this conspiracy. But if they don’t, there will be real question how they avoided it.

194 replies
    • Ralph H white says:

      So the head of the Capitol Police said today, or yesterday that the accusations of congressional republicans leading tours of the capitol in the days leading up to the assault “are under investigation. Really? How f….g long does it take to review security camera footage? And was there no protocol in place for requesting tours, or some kind of sign in procedure? I call BS.

      • bmaz says:

        Uh, it takes a more than decent amount of time when you are talking about elected Congress people that always have putative speech and debate protection. Have a little patience.

        • Brian Dodge says:

          Reconnaissance is an overt act which shows criminal intent under the Pinkerton liability rule for criminal conspiracy. I suspect that DOJ/FBI is collecting evidence that the members of Congress or their staff involved knew about the purpose of these “tours”, building a stronger case.

        • Bald Cthulhu says:

          Good luck to any of these clowns who really think the speech and debate clause is going to protect them if the evidence shows them giving tours of the Capitol against COVID directives and immediately before 1/6.

      • subtropolis says:

        That it is “under investigation” could mean a number of things — none of them bullshit. The most obvious that comes to mind, having just read this post by Marcy (you did, right?), is that the allegation ties in closely with this case against the Oathkeepers. What did Marcy point out? That it appears that there will be more individuals looped into this complaint.

        Investigations take time. That they haven’t yet held a presser to reveal all that they know does not mean that they are sitting on their asses. Nor that they are attempting to cover anything up.

  1. Desider says:

    Is it possible to just charge Trump for crimes carried out planning Jan 6 outside of the impeachment trial?
    Seems easier to convince 12 jurors or a judge than more than 5 Republicans, despite all the evidence, though jury selection still might be a nightmare.
    Somewhat similarly, did the Supreme Court permanently shut down suing for prior damages from emoluments violations, or just suits based on current violations when the presidency has ended so no longer applies?

    • bmaz says:

      More evidence comes out all the time, but right now it would be extremely hard to charge and convict Trump for 1/6. We may get there, but even with more evidence, it will be pretty hard. On any given jury, all it takes for one Trump voter to be seated to cause a hung jury. Although, DC may be the best shot at that.

      No, there will be no more emoluments cases, that is over as moot with him out of office.

      • Spencer Dawkins says:

        Bmaz, thanks for your insights. Two questions –

        I thought there was a statutory requirement that the Senate start trial proceedings quickly after they get articles of impeachment, but obviously “starting trial proceedings” didn’t prevent “waiting until mid-February while people prepare”. I wonder if it’s likely that if these dominos are actively falling in mid-February, it’s a good plan to wait even longer, and give people an opportunity to plead out (which seems to have started) and be subpoenaed, so that the world is clearer on what the Senate is, or is not, convicting on.

        I understand that the Supreme Court mooted the current emoluments lawsuits, but those lawsuits were asking that Trump stop accepting emoluments as the requested relief, weren’t they? Would a lawsuit that asked for damages, filed by the people who apparently did have standing to sue, also be moot?

        • bmaz says:

          Well, crikey, I thought I responded to this, but it disappeared. Ah well, here we go: By my understanding, it is a Senate Rule, not a statute, and the two sides stipulated to the extension, which they are free to do.

          To my eye, there is still a standing issue, and, yeah, the emoluments cases are done and over. By the way, did you see the video of the Trump Hotel in DC now? There is NOBODY there, not even workers! Hilarious.

          • BobCon says:

            This article notes a wild drop in price per square foot of Trump NYC properties at a time when Manhattan prices overall were largely stable:


            I’m cautious about reading too much into this since it’s a limited number of properties and not a long time span. But in general he’s a guy who needs rapidly inflating bubbles to stay afloat, and I doubt even a stable picture under the hood is good news for him.

          • Rugger9 says:

            It’s something I had expected, between the poor management by the TrumpOrg and the sheer radioactivity of the Trump name right now. No one wants to be associated with it, and everyone is aware that the check-in logs are public records.

            I had predicted a fiscal wipeout by the end of the year, and that DJT would be in custody or in exile. I may have to move that timeline up a bit.

          • Desider says:

            Some consolation on emoluments: “too shitty a businessman to prove he took advantage or gained benefit”.
            Yes, 12 jurors is fraught with peril in the age of Trump believers – has to be a solid case.

      • joel fisher says:

        One wonders if the USA couldn’t sue Trump civilly for for ill-got Emoluments gains collected during his term in office. SCOTUS certainly made it clear that Congress, private competitors of Trump, and maybe others have no cause of action. What does the Emoluments clause mean if it can’t be enforced by someone/something?

        • Chris.EL says:

          Only one U.S. citizen here; place of birth, Oakland, CA; pitching my 2¢… might it be logical to equate payment of an “emolument” to payment of a bribe?

          Thing is — I can’t think of any other area of concern in business or life where the word “emolument” is used.

          Could it be that people aren’t concerned about emoluments, because they sort of don’t know what they are and why we should be concerned!

          I know, I know, lawyers know; lawyers understand — but ladies shopping in the grocery store probably have no idea — ergo, probably don’t care.

          Thing is — **people should care** — people should want their president to represent the interests of the United States and be **honest**!!

          Otherwise, what is the point?

          Could it be said an emolument is equal to a bribe?

          Remember Trump voiced his opinion that U.S. businesses should be able to give bribes to persuade cooperation… and/or accept bribes to encourage meetings of minds and agreement.

          Has ANY other president or representative of U.S. government EVER put forth such an idea???

  2. Al Bet says:

    I’m wondering about the CP officer who suicided the day after who had Manafort connections.
    Also, there was a Rep who posted having an Israeli flag on her door and noting the office of a prominent Democrat was next door.
    Thirdly, who tipped off the traitors the location of Clyburn’s unmarked office on the 3rd floor.
    Lastly, Gaetz was photographed texting from the floor during the evacuation and phones are disallowed on the floor.
    There are so many things happening it seems like the investigation will be overwhelmed and certain participants will escape.
    The Mueller “investigation” did not make a good impression on many of us. It was an example of how letting these connected actors get away just emboldens them.

    • Spencer Dawkins says:

      I’m sympathetic to “don’t want another Mueller investigation”, but I think these “connected actors” lost their connections to the top actor, sometime between November 3rd and January 20th. I can’t imagine DoJ rolling over on this now, the way it would have rolled over under Barr, or any of his Trumpish predecessors.

      That’s still no guarantee of future performance, but it gives me hope.

    • cavenewt says:

      Yesterday it was announced that a second officer, in Metro PD, had also committed suicide. Some reports said he was injured in the insurrection.

  3. bmaz says:

    “In other words, this person appears to be a pivot between the terrorists and those giving them inside instruction. DOJ will likely keep what it knows about that part of the operation under wraps until it develops it much further.”

    Smart to hold and develop this.

    • The Dark Avenger says:

      I’ve seen the Secret Service at work, so nothing about the investigation so far has surprised me. This is how you handle organized crime, flip the small fry to get something on the layer(s) above them.

      • bmaz says:

        Agree completely. In fact, so far the feds seem to be doing a pretty good and appropriate job. We’ll see how it continues to go, but I don’t see the efficacy of the gripes this early.

        • timbo says:

          I think many of feel that we have to gripe in order to keep up the pressure on the Biden Administration, the currently chaotic bureaucratic situation, etc, so as not to provide any additional cover to insurrectionists and conspirators. It might be pointless or it might now be to do that. So, rather than risk that there is a missed point with it, it is better to gripe.

      • rip says:

        And a huge call out to the citizens who have collected and analyzed the data that the morans left around.

        Groups like ProPublica, Bellingcat, emptywheel are as important as any government investigative group. And we can work together!

  4. Fran of the North says:

    The messages (orders???) that Caldwell received while inside the Capitol appear to suggest that:

    1) They didn’t need to be concerned about a concerted LE or NG response – they had time to act with deliberation

    2) They use ‘core’ (Corps???) building clearing techniques. Start at the top, methodically secure each floor, and descend only after they had confirmed that nothing they were looking for was left behind

    3) Comments about “seal them in, turn on gas” indicates they were looking for individuals, rather than physical ‘stuff’.

    If these clowns are paying attention, I’d imagine that more than three sphincters are tightening.

    • P J Evans says:

      (3) seems to indicate that they weren’t concerned about the consequences of people in the tunnels dying.

      • Out West says:

        Concerned? (3) seems to indicate they intended to gas the people in the tunnels. Am I reading that wrong?

          • skua says:

            “seal them in” and “turn on the gas” juxtapose to mean “speed up” or “go hard”?

            The speedy sort of gas is not “turned on”.
            Weaponized gas is.

        • My Uncle Fred says:

          There’s so much to learn and I’m feeling impatient.

          Clearly Sharon Caldwell is leverage against her husband. She was fully implicated (inside the capital with her husband, and complicit in hiding Watkins and Crowl at the Caldwell home after the riot). The only reason not to charge Sharon is to compel cooperation.

          Naturally, the feds are playing close to the vest. In that vein, look at this photo: https://media.newyorker.com/photos/600066b6dd043fdcf00dfa24/master/w_1600%2Cc_limit/Farrow-Marine2.jpg which was widely circulated starting in the New Yorker. The man behind the man taking a picture is Crowl, and various edited versions of this picture have been used to show that Crowl has something suspicious (taser/gun/other) on his left (our right) hip.

          This photo has gnawed at me for a while because: 1) Mr. Photo and the man (Mr. Greybeard) with his hand on Mr. Photo’s shoulder look like serious dudes; 2) This picture is not one for which the F.B.I. requested public help identifying rioters. In fact, the F.B.I. website doesn’t seem to have any photos asking for help identifying Mr. Photo and Mr. Greybeard – does this mean the F.B.I. already knows their identifies?

          Behind Crowl is someone shorter that appears dressed as an Oathkeeper. Also, Behind Mr. Photo must be another short person, because this person’s camo-covered arm is visible between Mr. Photo and Crowl. Jessica is shorter than Crowl, and this Photo: https://i.dailymail.co.uk/1s/2021/01/20/05/38234082-9166503-image-a-48_1611121758960.jpg was taken outside the capital showing Watkins and Crowl with a third Oath Keeper who is rather short. So did Watkins, Crowl, and Mr. Short meet up with Mr. Photo and Mr. Greybeard at, or before reaching, the rotunda? Are Mr. Photo, Mr. Greybeard and possibly Mr. Short members of the NC Oath Keepers?

          Speaking of photos, when Caldwell’s finally became available, he wasn’t what I expected. To be honest, he looks a bit like a nebbish. And he isn’t geared-up or dressed like a paramilitary.

          Caldwell seems not to have been part of the Ohio Regulars (remember that Jessica Watkins was the self-appointed “Commanding Officer” and creator of the Ohio Regulars). Stewie Rhodes is reported to have denied that Caldwell was a leader of the Oath Keepers. While Caldwell wore civives to the Capital, its also notable that he didn’t wear any Oath Keeper identification. Has anyone found evidence that he was a part of the O-Ks? Otherwise, I’m inclined to believe he was a non-aligned or other player.

          How did Caldwell come to be the ‘Commander” for the Ohio Regulars? Did he just volunteer? Surely there was a group of vigilantes closer to home to whom he could have volunteered. Or was he installed from another direction? It seems hard to believe that higher power felt it was necessary to put someone in charge of the Ohio regulars, who consisted of their Commanding Officer, and a substance-abuser who was cajoled into making the trip with the threat he might miss Trump invoking the Insurrection Act. While dangerous individuals, particularly if armed, the Ohio Regulars didn’t project special abilities worthy of attention. Or were the Ohio Regulars a smoke screen for something else. In that case, we should remember that besides dressing differently Caldwell is reported to have entered the capital from the opposite side from Watkins and Crowl. Why did the ‘Commander’ maintain physical and visual separation from the Ohio Regulars?

          Regarding Caldwell’s role, was he just a point of contact between the Ohio Regulars and the North Carolina Oath Keepers? Or did he have some capacity above the NC Oath Keepers. Caldwell was quoted as saying something along the lines of: Stewie hadn’t given the go-ahead (to move to the Capital), so he (Caldwell) would. Did he also make this decision on behalf of the NC Oath Keepers, or merely for the Ohio Regulars?

          It remains unclear how many members the Ohio Regulars ever had. Suggestions in the press is that the numbers were few, and of varying levels of commitment. Who showed up to their Boot Camp and, perhaps more importantly, who was the Marine that they brought in to run the camp?

          In one of her walkie-talkie-app messages from the capital, Watkins claimed that their group was 30-40 (sounds like exaggeration speech) strong. The Ohio Regulars were 2-3 people. Did the NC Oath Keepers make up the rest? Was Jessica just exaggerating? Or were other groups included in this count? If Ohio Regulars were just a small wart on the side of NC Oath Keepers, one might wonder why they were lumped together. After all, the little Ohio Regulars contingent probably represented more of an operational risk than an increase in the NC O-K’s capabilities.

          The problem with questions is that they multiply like bunnies. Meanwhile, I’d really like to who Mr. Photo and Mr. Grey beard are, and how they fit in the picture.

    • BobCon says:

      I think it is possible they were suffering from a lot of hubris and didn’t exactly know what they were doing. Navigating the Capitol building can be very tricky, even with help.

      Which doesn’t minimize the risk — a bunch of people pounding on doors in the general direction would have a good chance of finding someone, and they came awfully close during the initial attack.

  5. Charles says:

    “All members are in the tunnels under capital seal them in. Turn on gas”.

    I assume that “turn on the gas” is eliminationist hyperbole–although one wonders about just exactly what defenses exist against people coming in through the tunnels which could be turned against escaping congressmen– but this implies that they knew where all the tunnels go and had the manpower to actually block access to them. It will be interesting to see just how they drew maps and where they had their people positioned.

    In the meantime, I hope they replace the steel doors with something heavier. Scary to see how the insurrectionists pursued police by just blocking the door coming down.

    • joel fisher says:

      The meaning of, “turn on the gas” is something a jury would have to figure out given the entire context of the day’s events and the defendants’ behavior and, perhaps, backgrounds. If I were they, I wouldn’t be betting the rest of my life that a DC jury would conclude that it was”eliminationist hyperbole”. [WTF is “eliminationist anyway? Sounds fecal. Me and spell check don’t like it, although we–me and sc–both hope the defense attorney uses the phrase in closing.] How many times have those shit birds talked about gassing people on social media? “Oh, I was just sayin’ that stuff to get girls. I didn’t really mean it.”

      • timbo says:

        What if it could be shown that these were the same folks who brought the hangman’s gallow to the protest? Would “turning on the gas” then take on more than one meaning in the minds of a fury?

      • Charles says:

        Joel, perhaps you could try a little harder than a spell checker.

        If you want to understand the radical right, you could do worse than to follow David Neiwert:

        “1) “Eliminationism” is a term you need not just to become familiar with, especially in today’s American rush toward authoritarianism. This will be a long, illustrated thread explaining what it means, how it works, and why Donald Trump is now our Eliminationist in Chief.”


      • Min says:

        FWIW, “exterminationist” might be a better term than “eliminationist”. Considering the context of White supremacy and anti-semitism, for any American old enough, “turn on gas” brings up thoughts of the gas chambers of the extermination camps of Nazi Germany.

    • Rugger9 says:

      Well, I think the gas statement clearly shows the intent to do deadly harm, and frankly I think that is all that is needed for prosecution on an attempted murder rap.

      • timbo says:

        It certainly shows an inclination to accelerate something during the commission of trespassing, vandalism, and/or deadly rioting and possible insurrection.

      • cavenewt says:

        I know what I first thought when I heard “seal them in” and “turn on the gas”. It seems fairly obvious.

      • Charles says:

        It certainly sounds like a intention to commit deadly harm, rugger, but if there’s no gas to turn on, I would think the prosecutor would want to tighten up the explanation to the jury. That’s all.

        My main point was wondering why they believed that they had Congress trapped. They clearly did, and that would suggest they had a complete map of the tunnels.

  6. harpie says:

    re: North Carolina, remember this, from 1/11:
    8:13 AM · Jan 11, 2021

    NEWS: U.S. Army Captain Emily Rainey has resigned her commission, @CBSDavidMartin reports, after leading a group of people from N.C. to the rally in Washington that led up to the deadly riot in the U.S. Capitol. Rainey was a psychological operations officer, @JimLaPorta reports. […]
    A Defense official says the Army is investigating how many soldiers from Ft. Bragg accompanied Rainy to D.C.. She had already resigned her commission after receiving a career-ending letter of reprimand for her actions at an earlier protest in the Ft… / …Bragg area. Because the process takes time, she was still on active duty when she led a group of protestors to Washington and is due to leave the Army next month, reports @CBSDavidMartin

    • timbo says:

      I wonder who has refused to resign their commissions at this time. Betting she’s not the only person involved. I mean, there was a Lt. Colonel there with zipties looking for folks from the Congress. Seems like that’s an indication of how high this might go, frankly.

        • timbo says:

          Yes. Are you arguing that we shouldn’t worry about active duty commissioned officers being involved in sedition? I mean, there’s already strong evidence that this is something to consider…

      • Roger says:

        1.) The LTC was Air Force.
        2.). The LTC is retired.
        3.). All indications thus far point to radicalization, the LTC is a poser (sheeple), he isn’t leadership.

        • timbo says:

          Your facts have been noted. However, why did you state them? Are you saying that there were no commissioned officers actively involved in the rioting and sedition at the Capitol Building on Jan 6? Because, although you fail to acknowledge it, at least one known commissioned officer there in the crowd, from psyops corp no less, who has since left the service. You don’t think there are others? Why did you recite all these facts here and not deal with my concern directly—my concern being that there are other commissioned officers, possibly higher than the rank of Lt. Col. that are or might be helping a move towards sedition against the Congress and President Biden—are you or aren’t you concerned that that might be the case?

  7. WilliamOckham says:

    About the tunnels, does anybody remember the apology letter that was sent to the Folger Shakespeare Library?

    Dear Folger Shakespeare Library and staff,

    Due to a large protest around Capitol hill on Wednesday, January 6th, 2021 ,
    we will be blocking off access to your facility.

    As the Legislative and Judicial branches of our government have ignored
    rampant voter fraud and disenfranchisement in this year’s presidential election. we
    the people will come to set the record straight that we will not tolerate such blatant
    disregard for the U.S. Constitution. This protest will include a 2.4 mile blockade
    surrounding all buildings to which the U.S. Capitol has underground tunnels to.
    Unfortunately, one of these buildings is the Library of Congress’s John Adams
    Building. to which you share a block with, and since the alleyway between the two
    buildings is prohibited to the public. We are forced to go around and block access
    to your building. We will be blocking access to your building as well to prevent
    our persons of grievance from using you as a loophole. This is nothing personal to
    the library itself. We have no intention of damaging, trespassing, or otherwise
    altering your facility in anyway.

  8. PeterS says:

    “Biden may still yet be our President. If he is, our way of life as we know it is over. Our Republic would be over.”

    I recognise that that quote is hardly the most important part of this post, but don’t these people have any memory; what do they think happened during eight years of the Obama presidency?

    I guess they are like religious cultists, believing the end of the world is always just around the corner and closing their minds to the fact that they have gone round that corner a few times already.

    • Chris.EL says:

      Lordy — why is their perception always backwards? Trump was the one trying to end their way of life!!

      Big border walls can also keep people IN THE U.S.

      I think Trump, yes Trump (he diverted funds illegally) should pay back the money — and compensate landowners for damages to their land!

    • Min says:

      A surprising number of people in the US do not know what a republic is, but believe the rhetoric that the US is “a republic, not a democracy”. So when they hear that Trump is an enemy of democracy, they they cheer him on. (“Democratic republic” is accurate, and was used by the early 19th century. Now that minorities and women have the vote, “representative democracy” also describes our form of government.)

      As a wannabe dictator, Trump is anti-republican, as well as anti-democratic.

      • Min says:

        I first heard that “a republic not a democracy” rhetoric online in the 1980s. I think it goes back to the John Birchers, but I’m not sure.

  9. Peacerme says:

    I haven’t seen anything written about this and it’s understandable. (Too soon, private…etc).

    But as a therapist, I am super curious about the 2 officers that committed suicide. One police officer committing suicide might have been anything and unrelated. (Trauma) But two really makes me wonder if there was something that ties those two officers together. Something that would be too hard to face. But what?

    • Pablo in the Gazebo says:

      I would ask that you refrain from using the term “committed suicide”. Every time I hear it I cringe. Suicide is not a crime and the tens of thousands of persons who die by it every year here are not criminals. They are suffering, all of them, though you seldom see it in them. I’m sorry if I sound preachy but I’m somewhat sensitive to that usage.

      • Joseph Andrews says:

        Here is what was written: “But as a therapist, I am super curious about the 2 officers that committed suicide.”

        Pablo: how would you write that sentence? (no snark intended)

          • Pablo in the Gazebo says:

            I would simply say, “died by suicide”. I worry about using the word “committed” because it implies guilt. The stigma of suicide is weight enough for the survivors, society at large does not appreciate the power of depression. I made the point for the families of survivors.

            • bmaz says:

              Hi Pablo, no, that is exactly the term professionals (and Peacerme is one) use, and how the term is used by other professionals, such as lawyers in court. It is an entirely appropriate description of the conduct.

    • timbo says:

      Have you found anything out about this in the five hours since your post? Curious myself… I hope whatever it was/is/are doesn’t spread to other officers as well. Ugh.

      • Peacerme says:

        I am sorry if I offended anyone by what I said regarding the term “committed suicide”. I know there is pressure not to use this term. I struggle with this point of view but I am willing to listen. I have spent nearly 30 years treating trauma. I use Dialectical Behavioral Therapy to treat suicidal clients.

        I am concerned about creating the idea that people are not accountable for what they do. I have concerns about treating people as if they are fragile. On the other hand, I am aware that a diseased mind might have little control over their illness. And I see the varying degrees in between. I am working on this dialectic and have not arrived at a synthesis. Don’t mean to hijack this important thread.

        With 30 years of experience treating trauma and chronically suicidal people, I am simply stating that something about this creates questions. I am jumping to NO conclusions but wanting to generate possibilities.

        It could be trauma. How many capital police officers were there that day? Let’s say 500-1000.

        I do not know if this is true or not but are these people trained, experienced seasons officers? If they are not, this should be considered.

        But imagine a troop of young people in the military go through combat. Several battles. If in 3 weeks time, two people killed themselves in a troop of 1000 people after a battle, that would be higher than normal in a 3 week period. One is random but two is a lot. Maybe it’s trauma? Maybe it’s that they were betrayed? Maybe they felt invalidated? (But Vietnam??) it feels like there might be something else. I could be wrong. I am not a good scientist. But pattern recognition is a strength.

        I am just saying that something about this seems strange to me. But I openly admit I don’t know why.

        • Ginevra diBenci says:

          It seemed strange to me when it was just Officer Liebengood, and after a day or two the media went silent about his death. Every time I heard the rote repetition of “five dead,” I wondered again about him. And now I wonder about the second suicide, and how many more might be dangerously close to a threshold I know too well. It doesn’t seem like they are getting enough help. Either that, or they are up against something hidden from the rest of us and terrifying.

          • timbo says:

            I wonder what’s going on with why he killed himself too. On the other hand, it’s not hard to see some of the cognizant dissonance on parade in the videos from Jan 6. Not surprising that some officers might not be able to reconcile their own internal problems with the events of Jan 6 sort of a trigger or added mental burden on top of whatever else might have been/have happened to them in their lives.

            • bmaz says:

              Eh, let’s not speculate on why these folks suicided; it is an incredibly hard thing to know, and without more, we have no idea,

        • Mulder says:

          Thank you, Peacerme for your follow up comment. I appreciate your thoughtful words about language and the respect you expressed for your clients.

          I am one of the “cringers”. The references to the two law enforcement officers who died by suicide have received uneven media reporting. Some framing it appropriately and others just throwing the loss of the officers in for dramatic effect. Shameful.

          I’ll share this for anyone interested in learning more.
          From the American Foundation for Suicide Prevention: A video briefing and a couple PDFs with tips and resources on language and framing of suicide. Among the tips: Do not use the word “committed”; instead, use “died by suicide” or “took his/her life” and Do not refer to a suicide attempt as “successful,” “unsuccessful” or as a “failed attempt”.

          And lastly, “Protest any labels that turn people into things. Words are important. If you want to care for something, you call it a ‘flower;’ if you want to kill something, you call it a ‘weed’”. William L. White

  10. dadidoc1 says:

    If Donald Trump, Jr. were convicted of conspiracy and sent to prison, would his secret service protection extend inside prison walls?

    • rip says:

      Why would Trump or his spawn need protection inside the walls of a federal correctional(!) facility? That’s gotta be one of the safest places in the US of A.

      Understanding that any of those types of people can have accidents with or without protection. Witness trump’s friend Epstein.

    • timbo says:

      Likely yes IMO, if convicted and sentenced, of a misdemeanor or a felony in a US court jurisdiction, to prison or jail. However, if he’s convicted during the impeachment then likely no as he is not entitled to any benefits from the federal government at that point—that’s in the Constitution. One thing to bear in mind though is that this “courtesy protection” to former Presidents is also to make sure that what they know doesn’t fall into the wrong hands. In Twitler’s case, it already likely has so it is not clear what the Treasury guys would be required to do if he’s convicted in the Senate—it’s new ground in that case.

  11. Jenny says:

    Thank you Dr. Marcy.
    With security cameras all over the Capitol, rioters/terrorists filming themselves, family members, friends and colleagues identifying those who participated in the insurrection – just a matter of time to arrest more participants and obtain more evidence.

    • earthworm says:

      capitol terrorists: is it possible the plentiful photo taking is more than just a juvenile “counting coup,” but related to proof-of-presence for future pay-out by unknown funders?

  12. skua says:

    The pardons Trump issued to Manafort, Bannon and Stone [link](https://www.justsecurity.org/74241/the-gaps-in-trumps-pardons-how-the-biden-administration-can-still-pursue-justice/ “have large gaps in them”) that leave them open to new charges being laid over actions already investigated, according to Andrew Weissmann.

    These three Trump associates needed Trump to remain POTUS if they wanted to be confident of remaining non-indicted. Which would have placed pressure on Stone to co-operate in the insurrection.

    Manafort too was in this situation after being pardoned on the same day as Stone – 23 December 2020. But I’ve seen no reports of any involvement by Manafort.
    The incomplete pardon given to Bannon on 20 January could be Trump fulfilling a promise while also punishing Bannon for his failure to have Trump remain President in 2021. Would be interesting to know if there was a complete pardon for Bannon that had been drawn up and then discarded.

    • bmaz says:

      Weismann certainly knows more about all this than I do. And I think he is likely right in his update as to the pardon of Bannon for the “charged conduct” making the pardon narrow. But as to Manafort and Stone, am not sure it is as clear as Weismann paints it. Most all of their conduct he refers to was likely “relevant conduct” for sentencing purposes in their various cases. Were I their lawyer, I would absolutely argue that makes it within the scope and purview of their pardons. Is that a winning argument? I don’t know, there is not a ton of precedent on this vis a vis Presidential pardons, so maybe not, but I would sure make it, and it would bugger up the works being litigated. I doubt the DOJ is really going to double back in this area, but if they do, look for this argument.

  13. CD54 says:

    It feels like Dr. EW is patiently walking everything upwards to the usual scummy suspects — and we know who he is.

    Is it really possible that they blew it this badly? These two possibilities:

    1.) He/they were so Trumpian deluded and believed the Capitol assault would work that they believed they would get away with it.

    2.) He/they were sure that the Trump Pardon was so guaranteed that it was locked in and pocketed — no possible chance of not happening.

    Did they really get it this wrong? Nothing could possibly be more delicious.

  14. Zinsky says:

    Again, thanks emptywheel, for doing the hard parts and reading the affidavits, complaints, etc. and extracting the key nuggets of information. I am glad to see some people are finally starting to realize that having all these infantile grown men, with their hypermasculine, testosterone-fueled gun and paramilitary gear fetishes involved in Republican politics was going to end badly. I hope the legal system treats the Oath Keepers and similar groups as criminal conspiracies with violent intentions, as they clearly have. This is not patriotic dissent. It is reckless and dangerous criminal activity.

  15. harpie says:

    I just want to say here that this
    will be with US for a LONG time:

    Capitol Police arrest a West Virginia man who was armed with a handgun and 20 rounds of ammunition near the Capitol. [CNN]

    6:55 AM · Jan 29, 2021

    Westover had “Stop the Steal paperwork” with him “that had a list of Senators &Representatives”… was “animated” &”shouting” at National Guardsmen on the inside of the perimeter surrounding Capitol Hill… He was taken into custody for having a black 9mm Sig Sauer handgun & ammo.

  16. The Old Redneck says:

    DOJ will no doubt do its homework and follow these leads. It can take as much time as it needs.
    The impeachment side is different. It sounds like there’s way too much to be developed within the timeline they’ve got. This really matters, because there’s no way the Senate will convict Trump based on a blustery speech alone. The impeachment managers need to have some powerful evidence we haven’t heard. Unfortunately, it sure doesn’t sound like they’ll be able to pull it all together in the few days they have left.

  17. harpie says:

    “STEWIE” RHODES spoke with ALEX JONES on October 27, 2020:

    Militia leader Stewart Rhodes says that his group will be at polling locations and is ready to kill Democrats
    https://www.mediamatters.org/infowars/militia-leader-stewart-rhodes-says-his-group-will-be-polling-locations-and-ready-kill 10/28/20 11:29 AM
    Among the things he said:

    [RHODES]: We’ve had recent discussions with guys that are special warfare veterans and also current serving. They’re paying very much attention to what’s going on and quite a few of them are waking up. And so it’s not going to be an easy fight for the radical left. They’re going to get swamped with very competent, battle-hardened veterans on our side.” […]

    • timbo says:

      One would hope that the Adjutants in the various military services are questioning this individual and others who claim there were active serving military personnel who were ready to join this seditious movement.

  18. harpie says:

    VERY helpful information here:

    VISUAL INVESTIGATIONS Tracking the Oath Keepers Who Attacked the Capitol
    Jan. 29, 2021

    Donovan Crowl and Jessica Watkins — both members of the Oath Keepers with ties to its leader — have been accused by federal investigators of coordinating a Jan. 6 Capitol breach in advance and conspiring to obstruct Congress.

    Visual evidence shows they, along with a third alleged conspirator named Thomas Caldwell, may not have acted alone. […]

    The full identities of the 10 are currently unknown, but after they left the Capitol, all of them can be seen gathered around the Oath Keepers’ leader, Stewart Rhodes, just 70 feet from the building, with Mr. Crowl and Ms. Watkins close by.

  19. harpie says:

    Text Messages Show Top Trump Campaign Fundraiser’s Key Role Planning the Rally That Preceded the Siege
    Caroline Wren, a Trump fundraiser, is listed as a “VIP Advisor” in a National Park Service permit for the Jan. 6th rally at the Ellipse. Text messages and a planning memo show the title downplays the active role she played in organizing the event.
    Mike Spies and Jake Pearson Jan. 30, 10:50 a.m.

    • harpie says:

      12/28/20 Caroline Wren to Cindy Chafian [text message]:

      Get the budget and vendors breakdown to me and Justin

      Cast of Characters:
      1] Caroline Wren: Trump campaign fund raiser; “VIP Advisor” for the Park Permit; Deputy to Donald Trump Jr.’s girlfriend, Kimberly Guilfoyle, at Trump Victory
      2] Cindy Chafian: a self-described “constitutional conservative”
      3] Justin Caporale, a former top aide to first lady Melania Trump, whose production company helped put on the event at the Ellipse.

    • harpie says:

      1/29/20 WREN to CHAFIAN [text]:

      [hold off on printing event-related slogans] “until we decide what the messaging is and we have no clue on timing because it all depends on the votes that day so we won’t know timing for a few more days.”

      • Eureka says:

        Which brings the question, where did the PBs and other militants stay after all? (And who else stayed there, to hang and bro around.)

        So the Willard was for Tier One* individuals and their associates/funders/schmooze targets/stans.

        The Hotel Harrington was for Tier Two PBs (but closed for Jan 4,5,6; closure announced December 28th). Any reason they’d have bothered to scatter besides late, limited availability? Did someone free-up a room block for them?

        So where did the PBs stay? Any affidavits/docs list hotels/local DC addresses for arrestees?

        Do we need to get out a map of DC hotels (this is like looking for the hotel closest to one’s convention site — or, here, transportation vein for 1/6 or even “bodyguard”/ “security” beneficiaries like Stone).

        “One” as in one degree of separation from EX-POTUS (and their affiliates); PBs = two degrees (barely, per public directives and affection).

        Obviously these categories are fuzzy and fluxy. My point is about the network sketch. And benefits which may have accrued from live proximity.

        • bmaz says:

          At least you are not the Lions tonight. Although shipping off Wentz with the other compensation might would have bee a good thing.

          • Eureka says:

            The Eagles are so dead-ass broke, I’d say they could never afford to give up those kinds of picks. But Wentz is a big cause of that cap problem, so… yeah I read that with some envy like just rip the bandaid off, we are headed for pain anyway let’s make it nicer!

              • Eureka says:

                It’s gotta happen here, too. There is no way this team can function with him here. Too many locker room / team issues w him, besides all else. And they will never forgive him for Duce leaving on top of — or besides — Pederson.

                LOL, but you know what — I was so busy yesterday that I had never even gotten to see the twitter treatment of Siri’s press conference until that tweet you linked. Then today clicking around, I see that clip reposted under Iggles tweets with titles like, “What is this?”. That was one of a few coffee spews. Another was w Siri saying he’s never had such engaged fans.

                • Eureka says:

                  …(like he’s — gulp — happy to have this fan base)… or really been in a city with a basketball team (Pacers diss), says he’s a Sixers fan now. Acting like he’s looking forward to it (until he does not!).

                  Next season is a total black box, which is fun in a way however ugly it may be (as long as Ginger Jesus takes the Wheel…Outta here).

                    • Eureka says:

                      Yeah, we’re fucked. I have liked to compare him to Jerruh (only because the bete noir level is becoming similar), but the more apt comparison may be Snyder (either Snyder, Jones, or both, really). Lurie and Roseman are locked in a folie a deux that’s sinking the team to the bottom of the ocean.

                      Dunno that Siri and his new crew are any Riverboat Ron, either (able to perhaps overcome all *this*). Naivete might help though.

          • Eureka says:

            Great: as a footnote to this, ‘expert’ segment on the news now going on about how the Eagles could _never_ trade Wentz like the Goff deal (with those two first rounders esp.), how that deal changed the market.

            Of course I had already been thinking of how any interested team would be angling for our #6 pick … Eagles are the desperate ones in any deal and everyone knows it. (This would just be another slap in the face to Pederson who took the heat for tanking for that 6th — though I also think he had affection for Riverboat Ron and not wanting to needlessly defeat, thus screw over, WFT, in mind. Among all the other variables.)

              • Eureka says:

                Yes, they need to keep that 6th pick and find some other way to get rid of Wentz (maybe future picks +/- send someone with him, like Ertz). [I was hoping for that delightful DeVonta Smith but it looks like the receivers will go quickly, too — just saw a snippet/mock where Eagles get the 3rd receiver to go, and Smith is def 1st or 2nd.] Maybe they’ll find a TB-type QB miracle in a later round — or get one at 6 (that would send a message!). They need so many positions IDK if they’d trade up or down.

                Clearly I should be put in charge of all this.

        • P J Evans says:

          A bunch seem to have been at the Hilton. Don’t know where the others were, but they could have been in hotels all the way out to Dulles.

    • Eureka says:

      I can’t deal w these rapscallions anymore now, but today’s funding disclosures should be noted (see WSJ linked in ProPublica above). Recall Jones had said that “he” paid for the Ellipse (while at the same time saying an unnamed benefactor had paid like 80% of the 500k tab).

      WSJ today reported that Publix heiress and Trump donor Julie Jenkins Fancelli “committed” “about” 300k (via Jones’ lobbying), and that Jones had “pledged” 50k of his own money. [So where’s the other 100k to make it 80%, or is Jones not a math guy.] [Or a semantics guy because “pledged” is not “paid.” Who exactly is holding any markers?]

      Jan. 6 Rally Funded by Top Trump Donor, Helped by Alex Jones, Organizers Say

  20. harpie says:

    12/18/20 TRUMP tweets to McConnell:

    .@senatemajldr and Republican Senators have to get tougher, or you won’t have a Republican Party anymore. We won the Presidential Election, by a lot. FIGHT FOR IT. Don’t let them take it away!

    12/19/20 TRUMP tweets:

    Peter Navarro releases 36-page report alleging election fraud ‘more than sufficient’ to swing victory to Trump [link]. A great report by Peter.
    Statistically impossible to have lost the 2020 Election.
    Big protest in D.C. on January 6th. Be there, will be wild!

    12/19/20 Ali ALEXANDER, “Stop the Steal” organizer, at a rally in Arizona, [says he’s been] “on the phone” with “people from the White House” [VIDEO]
    12/27/20 TRUMP tweets:

    See you in Washington, DC, on January 6th. Don’t miss it. Information to follow!

    12/27/20 STONE and TRUMP meet at Mara-lago:

    STONE: I thanked President Trump in person tonight for pardoning me.
    I also told the president exactly how he can appoint a special counsel with full subpoena power to ensure that those who are attempting to steal the 2020 election through voter fraud are charged and convicted and to ensure that Donald Trump continues as our president #StopTheSteal #rogerstonedidnothingwrong

    12/28/20 Caroline WREN to Cindy CHAFIAN [text message]: Get the budget and vendors breakdown to me and Justin

    1] Caroline Wren: Trump campaign fund raiser; “VIP Advisor” for the Park Permit; Deputy to Donald Trump Jr.’s girlfriend, Kimberly Guilfoyle, at Trump Victory
    2] Cindy Chafian: a self-described “constitutional conservative”
    3] Justin Caporale, a former top aide to first lady Melania Trump, whose production company helped put on the event at the Ellipse.

    12/29/20 WREN [Rally organizer] to CHAFIAN [text]: [hold off on printing event-related slogans] until we decide what the messaging is and we have no clue on timing because it all depends on the votes that day so we won’t know timing for a few more days.
    1/1/21 TRUMP tweets:

    The BIG Protest Rally in Washington, D.C., will take place at 11.00 A.M. on January 6th. Locational details to follow. StopTheSteal!

    1/3/21 Alex JONES [says he] gets specific directions from the White House about timing of joint maneuvers for the 1/6/21 operation. Jones relays the message to his people.
    1/3/21 TRUMP retweets: [an organizer of March for Trump bus tour] @JenLawrence21: Now we will bring it to DC on Jan 6 and PROUDLY stand beside you!
    1/3/21: TRUMP retweets [another organizer]: Amy Kermer, “We are excited to announce the site of our January 6th event will be The Ellipse in the President’s Park, just steps from the White House!”
    1/3/21 TRUMP retweets @ CodeMonkeyZ:If you are planning to attend peaceful protests in DC on the 6th, i recommend wearing a body camera. The more video angles of that day the better. [Acct. was suspended on January 8]

    • harpie says:

      1/5/21 RALLY at Freedom Plaza, largely sponsored by ALEX JONES, organized by Cindy CHAFIAN’s group, The Eighty Percent Coalition.
      1/5/21 JONES and STONE both give speeches
      1/5/21 JONES [PHOTO] and STONE [VIDEO] are both seen at the WILLARD HOTEL.
      1/5/21 JONES interviews Mike FLYNN [at the WILLARD Hotel?]:

      [FLYNN]: Donald Trump will continue to be the President for the next 4 years, no doubt in my mind [embedded clip]”

      1/5/21 Ali ALEXANDER [says he] “got a call” “from Kimberley Guilfoyle.”

    • Eureka says:

      Remember*, Jones said during a post-insurrection “interview” with Ali Alexander that “we” had a “peaceful deal” a “deal” with “the White House” (? part of the one made on 1/3). [More on JONES, ALEXANDER, and FUENTES+ below.] Returning to Wren:

      12/29/20 WREN [Rally organizer] to CHAFIAN [text]: [hold off on printing event-related slogans] until we decide what the messaging is and we have no clue on timing because it all depends on the votes that day so we won’t know timing for a few more days.

      1/02/21[or shortly thereafter**] Wren retweets Stop the Steal. AP:

      One of the messages Wren retweeted was from “Stop the Steal,” another group identified as a rally participant on a website promoting the event. The Jan. 2 message thanked Republican senators who said they would vote to overturn Biden’s election victory, including Josh Hawley of Missouri and Ted Cruz of Texas.

      Records: Trump allies behind rally that ignited Capitol riot
      January 17, 2021

      *‘Stop the Steal’ Organizer Ali Alexander in Hiding After Denying Blame for Capitol Riot

      ^ block quote for this over on Crowdsource TL page

      (also on TL page I had mistakenly referred to Wren’s STS RT as on the 1st (instead of on or after the 2nd) (she RT’d different tweets from the 1st).

      *her account is locked; AP did not specify a (relative) retweet time. AP relied on google cache; there’s a wayback archive on 26 January showing the locked account; the archive immediately prior is Aug 27 2020 (by a Tamil language/location user).

        • Eureka says:

          Texas, baby — like I said, they are *just* the team to do it! And Joel Osteen will love him. BYEEEEEEEE Carson. Rivers retired, there is still a chance Reich will just decide he’d like that headache opportunity.

          There will be a scream bigger than the SB when he is gone.

          Did you see Lions has a bunch of Iggles staff (beloved Duce Staley; Fipp, the special teams guy who did pretty well but for last season).

  21. Eureka says:

    1/6 as Descent with Modification [The gang is joined by more friends]: Alex Jones, Ali Alexander, Nick Fuentes [others] STORMED the Georgia state capitol on November 18, 2020. Effectively a dry run. Would-might give Jones an excuse as to his 1/6 intentions, but for the escalation in known, violent attaches (and stakes, and history) between the two events (I mean if corporate knew — Hotel Harrington closing, for e.g. — everyone knew.)

    Alex Jones Leads ‘Stop the Steal’ Rally at Georgia’s Capitol to Protest Election Results

    Conspiracy theorist Alex Jones led a “Stop the Steal” demonstration at the Georgia Capitol on Wednesday amid a manual recount of the state’s ballots in the presidential election.

    Footage posted to Twitter by Brendan Gutenschwager, an independent journalist, showed Jones, activist Ali Alexander and right-wing media personality Nick Fuentes occupying the rotunda of the Capitol building in Atlanta along with supporters of President Donald Trump.

    “This is a major moment. You guys are the literal vanguard, and Georgia is a key battleground state in all of this,” Jones told the crowd.

    Jones demanded that state lawmakers call a special session to investigate alleged instances of fraud, even though Republican state officials have steadfastly defended the handling of the election and have found no evidence of widespread irregularities.

    Recall that US Capitol arrestee Riley June Williams wore an “I’m with Groyper” [Fuentes] shirt.

    Back to the GA event: heavily promoted by RT and like outlets as the duo/trio/quad STORM[ing] the CAPITOL.

    Alex Jones leads ‘Stop the Steal’ rally at Georgia’s Capitol
    Nov 18, 2020

    Alex Jones Leads Protesters Into Georgia State Capital as Recount Continues
    Nov 18, 2020

    Alex Jones, Ali Alexander, Nick Fuentes and Vernon Jones wrap things up inside the Capitol [<— the Georgia one]
    Nov 18, 2020
    NB: search this title if wish to view (not a good channel)

    • harpie says:

      Sorry, I haven’t taken time to find/watch these, yet, but here’s something…[maybe same]/similar:

      4:49 PM · Jan 30, 2021

      Where and when did this moment take place? [VIDEO]

      Laura Rozen Retweeted: https://twitter.com/Blue_Bee_pllntr/status/1355637299787280387

      Replying to @BillyRay5229 and @lrozen
      The video is from November 18, 2020
      Alex Jones – in the Georgia State Capitol w one of the organizers of the Trump rally, Ali Alexander

      WHO are they talking to?

      • Eureka says:

        Thanks harpie that Billy Ray video excerpt is NOT included in the videos I had linked above.

        [But FYI, the content in that third video _title_ I had added without a link IS included in the spliced clips in the second video I had linked above so no need to try to look for that third one.]

        Also I should have just come back here in the am to add the additional comments on this topic while I had my train of thought/links handy UGH. More on this later, perhaps.

    • Eureka says:

      More from that article: PBs and Tarrio also in GA November 18th; Jones et al. in AZ back on November 5th:

      The Proud Boys, a far-right extremist group, were also in Georgia on Wednesday. A video clip posted from Gutenschwager showed Enrique Tarrio, the group’s chairman, addressing the crowd.

      “We’re going to keep coming out until something gets fixed,” Tarrio said. “And if they steal this election, we’ll be out every day.”


      On November 5, Jones appeared at a demonstration outside of a counting station in Phoenix. Speaking into a megaphone, Jones yelled, “You ain’t stealing s***” as poll workers tallied votes.

      “We don’t know how this is going to end, but if they want a fight, they better believe they’ve got one,” Jones told the crowd in a video posted by Randy Perez of activist group LUCHA Arizona. “We’re not going to fight their little meth-head Antifa scum…. We’re going to take it directly to those scumbag Nazi b*******.”

    • Eureka says:

      re videos above:

      1st shows crowds outside

      2nd (clips compilation from tweeter on scene) shows inside GA Capitol, 1776 chants. But also them entering the building with someone emphasizing things like ‘no harm, no violence, no weapons, no guns no knives’ and you can hear the clink of metal as someone tosses aside (a knife, possibly). This happens twice and on the second toss/click someone is congratulating the person, ~ “good job.”

  22. harpie says:

    Just putting this here because I’m having a difficult time remembering things:

    WHO made the CALL/ REPORTED BOTH BOMBS to Capitol Police

  23. harpie says:

    OATH KEEPERS CHANGED into TACTICAL gear on the way from the RALLY to the CAPITOL.
    Where had the CLOTHING/GEAR been STORED?
    What did they do with the clothes they had been wearing?


    Twenty minutes before Mr. Trump’s speech ends — and at the same time that rioters across town first break through the Capitol’s perimeter fence — one of the 10 Oath Keepers we tracked is seen leading several others from that group out of the rally, including Ms. Watkins. [VIDEO]

    Walking to the Capitol
    Several of the Oath Keepers, including Ms. Watkins, Mr. Crowl and at least two others, have now changed into tactical gear, such as bulletproof vests and helmets.

    Also, JONES says he got SPECIFIC DIRECTIONS from the WHITE HOUSE about WHEN and WHERE to lead his crowd from the rally to the CAPITOL.
    The DIRECTIONS were BASED ON the TIMING of TRUMP’s speech.
    He says the SECRET SERVICE was going to be involved in coordinating this exit.

  24. harpie says:

    Along with the NYT article linked above, there’s lots of good info about [esp. NC] OATHKEEPERS here, via Aaron Weisburd:

    11:14 AM · Jan 30, 2021

    3 insurrectionists indicted for storming the Capitol on Jan. 6 had been eager to link up with a busload of Oath Keepers from North Carolina. The hub for Oath Keepers organizing in NC for the past 8 months has been Columbus County. #CapitolCoup [VIDEO] [link]

    Links to:
    Three indicted in Capitol insurrection worked with NC Oath Keepers
    Jordan Green January 30, 2021

  25. harpie says:

    This article has some good information, I’ll just note this, for now:

    77 Days: Trump’s Campaign to Subvert the Election
    Hours after the United States voted, the president declared the election a fraud — a lie that unleashed a movement that would shatter democratic norms and upend the peaceful transfer of power.
    Jan. 31, 2021 Updated 10:16 p.m.

    […] Mr. Stockton said he was surprised to learn on the day of the [1/6/21] rally that it would now include a march from the Ellipse to the Capitol. Before the White House became involved, he said, the plan had been to stay at the Ellipse until the counting of state electoral slates was completed. […]

  26. Eureka says:

    2 items which go to Jones+/WH+ planning, getting to backstory/ ATTN: harpie:

    (1) Someone spliced together Jones & Ali footage from the Parler dumps as they marched to the Capitol:

    Alex Jones & Ali Alexander 1/6/21 Stop the Steal – US Capitol – YouTube

    I haven’t finished the video (4:19 length), but there’s interesting enough info in first couple minutes that it may be worth trying to transcribe (or at least pay close attention to the whole 4 mins).

    Ca. 1:43 +/- Jones (IIRC- not in my notes) tells them to make a part in the center because Mr. Trump is coming. I am not sure if this is a fiction they are continuing to maintain (Jones claimed publicly, before and after, that the plan was for Trump to follow Jones and the crowd. Could all be bullshit. Could be the plan changed, Trump was genuinely talked out of it as some earlier reporting had indicated).

    Before that, someone else — not Jones’ voice — says something to the effect that they better not certify “fake” Joe Biden.

    (2) Infighting prior to January 3rd “deal”, tweets included:

    Pro-Trump Rallies Fued After President Endorses One
    Jan 5, 2021, 12:16 pm*
    *First Published: Jan 5, 2021, 12:06 pm

    This has more early tweets, including from January 1st and 2nd, which indicate the infighting — Ali disses Trump here in much the same way I saw Flynn Jr talking about Trump in a dismissive or “disrespectful” manner on Parler (e.g. January 8th).

    IMPORTANT: this all leads into their “deal” they made on January 3rd; makes Jones’ kumbaya story sound like BS — what exactly were they negotiating? (Besides, e.g., Jones’ appearance for the 5th)

      • Eureka says:

        Thanks for the alert timbo, this is a giant bummer. I’ve so far been unable to find that footage elsewhere.

        CALL FOR INFO:

        1- If anyone watched that video and recalls the channel name (it was Granny- something/ or similar) and can let me know, I’d appreciate it.

        2- If anyone has/recalls who has videos of Jones during the march to the Capitol, please advise, even if a brief snippet (is any of this in e.g ProPublica compilations?)

        additional e.g.
        is tweeting out stuff from their Parler capture (usually with date/timestamps/location) but not searchable names (like who is in the post/video)

  27. Eureka says:

    December 12th Huntington Beach CA event; organizer leads into Jones and Ali Alexander’s January 5th event (recall that the 1/5 Jones+ event part of the “deal” brokered by Jones+ and WH+ on 1/3 for 1/6 events (too).

    “Stop the Steal” Organizer Called for “Execution” of Trump’s Foes – Mother Jones
    Alan Hostetter helped organize and finance a rally that preceded the deadly Capitol rampage.
    David Corn
    January 29, 2021

    [I’m rushing to add this before the page closes; because the topic threads have been slip up now, cross-reference this one with both Jones+-WH 1/6 planning and Jones+-(WH) prior Stop the Steal events like GA, AZ above.

    • Eureka says:

      *split up

      December 12th (date of nationwide “protests”, incl DC) in Huntington Beach, CA.:

      Weeks before the murderous mob of insurrectionists stormed the United States Capitol on January 6 to prevent Congress from certifying Joe Biden’s victory, a leader of the so-called Stop the Steal movement stood before a crowd of angry Donald Trump loyalists in California and called for the “execution” of those who had supposedly plotted against Trump. Afterward, he posted video of his demand for blood on YouTube.

      […] The man leading that protest was Alan Hostetter, a police-chief-turned-yoga-instructor who last year became a prominent opponent of COVID shutdowns in the Golden State. […] [and] who heads a group called the American Phoenix Project [..].

      Hostetter read from prepared text — a “violent rant”, as Corn calls (and details) it — with former area rep Dana Rohrabacher (who also spoke) at his side. [Insert quaint memory of Kevin McCarthy’s bold mouth behind closed doors here.]

      On to January 5th:

      Weeks after urging the killing of Trump’s rivals, Hostetter was part of the Trump Resistance infrastructure that organized events in Washington leading up to the march that would turn into an insurrectionist raid on the Capitol. The American Phoenix Project joined forces with Virginia Women for Trump to hold a pre-march rally on January 5, obtaining the permit for the event and helping to finance it. (A video of the entire proceedings appeared later on Hotsetter’s Instagram page.) Held in front of the Supreme Court, directly behind the Capitol, the rally featured many of the stars of the Stop the Steal movement. Ali Alexander, who has dubbed himself the movement’s leader, told the crowd, “We are here to stop a coup that’s going on in our country.” He shouted, “This is our country, one way or another.” Then he led the audience in chanting, “1776! 1776! 1776!” Alexander concluded by a giving “a few shout-outs” to his “friend” Alex Jones, the notorious conspiracy theory-monger.

      Jones, Joe Flynn (brother of Michael Flynn), and Roger Stone also spoke 1/5.

      (internal links removed, emphasis added)

  28. harpie says:

    Thread and link to article:
    4:14 PM · Jan 31, 2021

    […] SUMMARY:
    Just from open source information, it appears that there was a year-long conspiracy to hide the threat of violent right-wing paramilitaries while hyping a fake threat from the Left because Trump knew he could never win the election, so a coup d’état was the only answer.

  29. harpie says:

    Rep. Matt Gaetz staffer Joel Valdez

    Rep. Matt Gaetz Staffer Cheered On Capitol Rioters Via Parler as They Overran Police
    https://gizmodo.com/rep-matt-gaetz-staffer-cheered-on-capitol-rioters-via-1846173039 2/1/21

    As police struggled futilely to fend off a wave of rioters outside the U.S. Capitol building on January 6, Joel Valdez, an aide to Congressman Matt Gaetz, made his way to the rooftop of his boss’s office building across the street on Independence Ave. Surveying the mob as it surrounded the complex, he captured a five-second video with his phone and posted it to Parler—the now-defunct social network where some supporters of President Trump are reported to have openly planned an insurrection for weeks.

    1:14 PM From the top of the Capitol office buildings, WE HEAR YOU LOUD AND CLEAR! #StopTheSteal [VIDEO]

    […] According to his LinkedIn page, he began working for Gaetz in January 2020 and previously worked for the Trump re-election campaign as a “War Room Analyst.” He was also once a member of the right-wing group Turning Point USA. […]

    Later that day:

    [GAETZ] “Some of the people who breached the Capitol today were not Trump supporters,” Rep. Matt Gaetz (R-Fla.) said on the House floor hours after the insurrection took place. “They were masquerading as Trump supporters and, in fact, were members of the violent terrorist group antifa.” […]

    Capitol Rioters Blamed Antifa For The Insurrection. You’ll Never Guess What Happened Next. They got arrested, not antifa.
    https://www. huffpost.com/entry/capitol-insurrection-antifa-proud-boys_n_60147e49c5b653f644d3be1a

    • Ginevra diBenci says:

      On a related note, can anyone find an original source/timestamp for that widely circulated photo of Josh Hawley saluting the mob with raised fist? I saw it on TV within hours, but I’m wondering if rioters got his visual message before/during the insurrection.

  30. harpie says:

    11:40 AM TRUMP departs 50 minutes late for his rally on the Ellipse
    12:00 PM [approx.] TRUMP speech scheduled to begin
    12:16 PM TRUMP announces he’s going to Capitol Hill this afternoon
    12:30 PM TRUMP gives shout-out to TUBERVILLE in listing senators who have said they will challenge Electoral College results.
    12:30 PM Supporters stream toward Capitol even though TRUMP is still speaking
    12:31 PM TRUMP complains about BARR, saying he “changed” because he didn’t to be considered “my personal attorney.”
    12:40 PM [approx.] The first wave of rioters arrive at the Capitol building
    12:45pm [approx.] RNC BOMB found
    12:55 PM TRUMP:

    Pence, I hope you’re gonna stand up for the good of our Constitution and for the good of our country. And, if you’re not, I’m gonna be very disappointed in you, I will tell ya right now. I’m not hearing good stories.

    12:59 PM [Crowd] Fight for Trump! Fight for Trump! Fight for Trump! Fight for Trump! Fight for Trump!
    [Man in crowd] What are we waiting for? We already voted and what have they done? They stole it! We want our fucking country back! Let’s take it! Let’s fucking take it! Come on! Come on! Come on! Let’s go!
    1:00 PM Alex JONES RALLY at CAPITOL scheduled to BEGIN [later, Jones claims, with ALI ALEXANDER: “We had a legitimate deal with the White House,” ‘Hey Jones and Ali,’ literally, they let us out early, we were supposed to lead a peaceful deal.”]
    1:00 PM JOINT SESSION of CONGRESS scheduled to BEGIN
    1:02 PM PENCE tweets three images-a letter indicating he will follow protocols in counting the Electoral College votes.
    1:10 PM Alabama Electoral College votes accepted by Congress without objection
    1:10 PM TRUMP finishes SPEECH
    1:14 PM GAETZ aide, Joel VALDEZ posts on Parler: “From the top of the Capitol office buildings, WE HEAR YOU LOUD AND CLEAR!” “#StopTheSteal” [screenshot]
    1:15pm [unconfirmed] DNC BOMB discovered
    1:15 PM Arizona Electoral College vote challenged
    1:21 PM [Man recording] President TRUMP is here at the Capitol building with us. We saw the motorcade. Shit is about to get real.
    1:23 PM TRUMP just returned to the White House.

    • Eureka says:


      1:21 PM [Man recording] President TRUMP is here at the Capitol building with us. We saw the motorcade. Shit is about to get real.
      1:23 PM TRUMP just returned to the White House.

      and Jones’ direction to the crowd to part in the center to make room for Trump, he is coming (which I had suspected to be bullshit and is in captured Parler video removed from yt posted above*), and the claim ahead of the event that Trump was to follow:

      (1) was this for a motorcade for Jones’ security** (was he afraid of the crowd/ being a good self-interested planner, wanted an escape route for himself

      (2) were they — as may be suggested by that 1:21 PM comment (tho that may be from an unrelated or unaffiliated to Jones’ march location/time) — using any such motorcade as theater to fuel and deceive the crowd


      ** Check out all the ‘security’ types holding onto Jones, holding him up in place as he speaks, then helping him down

      [Parler Video Dump] Alex Jones again, admitting he’s fat, requiring at least 3 security team members to get him off a pallet, “tell everyone to go to the other side of the Capitol, that’s where Trump is gonna be” : ParlerWatch

      • harpie says:

        Yes, those two items together are really striking. I’m sorry I did not take the time to watch those videos when you first posted them. :-(


        The JONES video clips I am quoting in these Time Lines is from and they have closed captioning!]:
        “Fight for Trump: Video Evidence of Incitement at the Capitol
        Ryan Goodman and Justin Hendrix January 25, 2021

        I STILL have not even watched the WSJ one linked here:

          • Eureka says:

            I need a map, too, a better one (I saw a schematic, overhead, and probably partial one recently, possibly the WSJ video).

        • harpie says:

          See 1:36 PM and 1:54 PM below.
          JONES: Trump’s coming right now. Be on the other side of the Capitol. […] Go to the other side. That’s where Trump’s going to be.”

          I think I read that he was directed to be on the Northeast side of the building, but where is he actually in these clips. I’m NOT familiar with the locations. ARG!

          How does that place compare to the location[s] [west side?] where people are attacking police and breaking stuff.

          • harpie says:

            It sounds like the JONES got DIRECTIONS to HERD the crowd, and the supposed presence of TRUMP was USED as BAIT.

            WHY did they want the CROWD to be there?
            Or, WHY did they want to SEEM to be DIRECTING the crowd there?

  31. harpie says:

    1:29 PM Multiple buildings on the Hill are now being evacuated.
    1:25 PM Minority Whip @SteveScalise speaking
    1:35 PM Republican congressman @Jim_Jordan speaking
    1:36 PM MCCONNELL says the election was not that close
    1:36 PM [Alex JONES] Hey guys Trump’s coming right now, so be on the other side of the Capitol.
    [Crowd] Alex, this is your revolution buddy! Thank you! Thank you! Storm the Capitol!
    1:46 PM Rep. Elaine LURIA [VA] tweets:

    I just had to evacuate my office because of a pipe bomb reported outside. Supporters of the President are trying to force their way into the Capitol and I can hear what sounds like multiple gunshots.

    1:50 PM Republican congressman @RepAndyBiggsAZ speaking
    1:54 PM [Woman in crowd] Love you Alex Jones!
    [JONES] History is happening! I salute you! Tell everyone you know to go to the other side of the Capitol! That’s where Trump’s going to be!
    1:57 PM Republican congresswoman @laurenboebert speaking: “Madam Speaker, I have *constituents* outside this building right now. I promised my voters to be their voice.”
    1:59 PM The Capitol building was breached. D.C. police had hundreds of officers on the scene.
    2:00 PM [approx.] (crowd chattering) [Video of gallows] (people laughing)
    2:01 PM Republican congressman @BrianMastFL speaking
    2:06 PM The US Capitol is now on lockdown. [<<< NEW TIME]
    2:08 PM Republican Congressman @RepMikeJohnson speaking
    2:10 PM (est.) TRUMP calls TUBERVILLE around this time, before senators were evacuated, but reaches Sen. Mike Lee’s (R-UT) phone. Lee hands his cell phone to Tuberville who speaks with Trump briefly.
    2:15 PM (alarm beeping) [Crowd] Hang Mike Pence! Hang Mike Pence! Hang Mike Pence!
    2:17 PM BOEBERT: We were locked in the House Chambers.
    2:18 PM BOEBERT: The Speaker has been removed from the chambers.
    2:18 PM 7th Republican to speak is @RepGosar.

    • harpie says:

      2:24 PM TRUMP tweets:

      Mike Pence didn’t have the courage to do what should have been done to protect our Country and our Constitution, giving States a chance to certify a corrected set of facts, not the fraudulent or inaccurate ones which they were asked to previously certify. USA demands the truth! [Twitter: This claim about election fraud is disputed]

      2:31 PM @MayorBOWSER instituting CURFEW in D.C. from 6 p.m. TODAY until 6 a.m. tomorrow.
      2:35 PM Rep. Mo BROOKS [AL] tweets:

      Tear gas dispersed in Capitol Rotunda. Congressmen ordered to grab gas masks under chairs in case have to leave in haste!

      2:37 PM [Man on phone] Can I speak to Pelosi? Yeah, we’re coming bitch! Oh, Mike Pence, we’re coming for you too fucking traitor.
      2:38 PM TRUMP tweets [VIDEO]

      Please support our Capitol Police and Law Enforcement. They are truly on the side of our country. Stay peaceful!

      2:39 PM Rep. Mo BROOKS [AL] tweets:

      At least #Socialist #Democrats have NOT defunded Capitol police.
      Evacuating chamber.

      2:43 PM People are smashing glass in the doors to the House chamber. Police have guns drawn and aimed at the door.
      3:20 PM [Voices in crowd] May he go under the gallows. I hope he is put under the firing squad, and found guilty of treason. Because men like him are the reason this country is falling apart. Where is Pence?
      [Man in crowd] Bring Pence out!
      [Man on megaphone] Where is Pence? Where is Pence? [etc.]
      [NOTE: Vice President Pence REMAINED in the United States Capitol from the time he was evacuated from the Senate Chamber until the sessions resumed.]
      3:23 PM A woman is in critical condition after being shot in the chest on the Capitol grounds, per @NoahGrayCNN . No other details were provided.
      3:30 PM [approx.] [Inside the Capitol] [Man to police officer] You’re outnumbered. There’s a fucking million of us out there, and we’re listening to Trump, your boss. (crowd yelling over each other)
      3:35 PM [Man] So, I just wanted to report to you guys, the patriots and the protesters have taken the Capitol building. I’m going to show you guys what’s happening right now.
      [Crowd] Fight for Trump! (loud, rhythmic banging) Fight for Trump! Fight for Trump!
      3:42 PM (inaudible yelling) // [Man recording] (yelling) We were invited here! We were invited! Hey, We were invited here! (multiple people yelling inaudibly) We were invited by the President of the United States! (multiple people yelling inaudibly)
      4:05 PM TRUMP has been more focused on PENCE defying him […] TRUMP has ignored requests for a stronger statement so far.
      4:13 PM Jim Acosta [CNN] tweets:

      “A source close to the White House who is in touch with some of the rioters at the Capitol said it’s the goal of those involved to stay inside the Capitol through the night.”

      4:17 PM TRUMP tweet VIDEO:

      TRUMP: I know your pain. I know you’re hurt. We had an election that was stolen from us. It was a landslide election, and everyone knows it, especially the other side, but you have to go home now. We have to have peace. We have to have law and order. We have to respect our great people in law and order. We don’t want anybody hurt. It’s a very tough period of time. There’s never been a time like this where such a thing happened, where they could take it away from all of us, from me, from you, from our country. This was a fraudulent election, but we can’t play into the hands of these people. We have to have peace. So go home. We love you. You’re very special. You’ve seen what happens. You see the way others are treated that are so bad and so evil. I know how you feel. But go home and go home at peace.

      6:45 PM Hearing that TRUMP wants [GOP] to keep fighting certification
      7:00 PM GIULIANI calls Lee [mistakenly] instead of TUBERVILLE. Leaves message.
      8:00 PM [shortly after] JOINT SESSION of CONGRESS RESUMES
      10:11 PM Six Republican senators vote to object to the results of Arizona’s Electoral College votes. The challenge is unsuccessful. [Cruz Hawley Hyde Smith Kennedy Marshall Tuberville. The objection fails 6-93]

    • Ginevra diBenci says:

      This specific lineup of congressional speakers seems designed to keep House members on the Floor as long as possible, thereby making it harder for the mob’s targets (e.g., AOC) to escape–especially if the planners knew there was, in fact, nowhere for them to go. (This according to Katie Porter on Lawrence O’Donnell’s show last night.)

  32. Eureka says:

    Ali Alexander January 5th: “DC becomes FORT TRUMP starting tomorrow on my orders!”

    Ali Alexander · @Ali
    5 days ago ·

    DC becomes FORT TRUMP starting tomorrow on my orders!

    Join us: MarchToSaveAmerica.com

    [infographic — incl “CAPITOL BLDG (NORTH EAST DR) JAN 6 | 1 PM]

    [Screenshot Parler/ January 10th archive link (posted 5 days ago; echoed 4 days ago (Jan 6th)]

    The infographic:


    Three-part center:

    [(sic) on the variable spacing/parens]

    • Eureka says:

      Threaded w/ above: AA (? obsequiously) praising Michael Coudrey

      Coudry (on the come up in magaworld) seems to be flying under the radar; don’t know if AA is giving him a signal boost or throwing him under the bus (appears to have been posted on the 7th). [Limbaugh* amplified Coudry lies about WI voters back on November 4.] Coudry (I believe) is seen introducing AA on 1/5 in another video**; has some post-election STS videos from AZ, MI on his sparse yt channel.

      [January 11 archive:]

      Ali Alexander · @Ali
      4 days ago ·

      There would be no #StopTheSteal movement without @MichaelCoudrey.

      He’s been the rock when any of us get tired. He’s patches every job and has even sacrificed clients to do this work.

      Forever grateful to my friend—a true patriot.

      *Rush Limbaugh pushes easily debunked viral lie about the amount of voters in Wisconsin | Media Matters for America

      **ParlerVideos: “#uea75HdM5YCy #CapitolHunters #SeditionHunters #ParlerVideos #FreedomPlaza #AliAlexander Duration: 0:00:52 Model: iPhone 12 Pro Max CreationDate: 2021:01:05 15:44:53-05:00 ImageSize: 3840×2160 GPSPosition: 38 53′ 45.60 N 77 1′ 51.60 W https://t.co/N4p610O214

  33. Eureka says:

    [Parlertakes w/current screenshots of Milo lobbying to dislodge Tarrio from PB leadership]

    “Milo clarifying that he doesn’t want to run the Proud Boys. He just wants Tarrio gone. [screenshot]”

    “Milo states the Proud Boys never secured a trademark for themselves… He’ll gift it to the Proud Boys if Enrique Tarrio steps down for life (for anything beyond a chapter president). [screenshot]”

    • harpie says:

      There is so much in-fighting and backstabbing.
      This was a major impression I got when trying to figure out what happened with the many different rallies on 1/5 and 1/6.
      They just couldn’t seem to work together…all competing for TRUMP’s favor.
      He was probably pitting them against each other, as well.
      The ROT comes from the CENTER.

      • Eureka says:

        Yes, and it reminds me of all things TRUMP-RUSSIA.*

        All those characters angling to get into or to the campaign or Trump.

        All the scams, crooked offers of “help” to curry debt/favor.

        All of it. The whole presidency, the cronies taking apart our country.

        AA et al. are just the late Trump era version of Sondland et al., but this time paying up front with the social capital of hate and (promised, potential) violence. It’s too much. And we have been living this for YEARS!

        (And as long as I’m ranting, it’s really the manufactured problems with the Post Office that make it feel like we’re glimpsing a banana republic.)

        * Including how these characters have at times expressed open disdain or lack of respect for Trump — like Putin has. Trump is just an instrument.

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